What's A Narcissist?

[eyes_up]

Yes, that is a short article and straight to the point. Interesting how he says there are no victims just volunteers. children are victims they do not volunteer.

Well, If I had understood the silent treatment back then I most certainly moved faster sooner. Information  education is soooo important. I certainly know that the silent treatment was yuck yet there was no line pointing from the scene to an explanation. But when googling abuse I did see the silent treatment  underneath and that is when my head changed up.

I sure wish more people would google and read the forms of abuse and get a move on. It must isn't worth it. No money, no ideal living situation or conveniences or what ever.

Geees am I ever glad that is over and I have the awareness to not be there again.

An to think the narc came around last spring to inquire about friendship. then asking why I wouldn't be his friend. Hmmm...what a big lying joke.

Thanks for the article Jude. Hope some other people take a look at it.

eyes

[practicaljude]

no victims just volunteers

JEESH! I wish she would not have quoted Dr. Phil in this article!  What the he** does he know?  This puts the blame right back on the VICTIM!  Your right eyes.  This article is full of good information but this quote has to GO!  Scratch that part of the article.  I see there is lots of controversy around his quote.  Sure makes my blood boil!

 
Jude

[CZBZ]

There's no perfect article out there so my motto remains the same, "Take what you need and leave the rest."

"Professor Linda Roberts of the University of Wisconsin wrote in the Journal of Marriage that a verbal withdrawal can be just as destructive to a relationship as actual violence. Psychological abuse is abuse." ~ excerpted from article

It's about time we talked about The Silent Treatment since it serves as a means to an end: Control/punish a partner. I'm not sure it's as destructive as physical violence, though. A fist says a whole lot more than an absence of words...because the FIST represents Power. I also wonder if the knuckle-buster justified hitting his partner because in his perceptions, she was withholding from him by refusing to talk.

Maybe a sad interpretation of Robert's excerpt is this: violence doesn't end a marriage, but if SHE quits talking..........

Call me cynical. 

I think people miss the power imbalance between males and females. Yea, she's responsible for her childhood issues and her psychologically abusive behavior; but The Silent Treatment is not equal to physical violence and the sheer threat of doing physical harm to another person.

I like the topic of the article and the good insights about the impact of The Silent Treatment on people. I wish they hadn't used a physically violent man as their example. I might shut my mouth, too...

Could we start a separate thread about The Silent Treatment?? Withdrawing is a tactic employed by narcissists to maintain control. How does that work? Well, have you ever sat with someone who wouldn't talk? I have. I automatically start spilling my guts, or entertaining them to fill up the empty space. LOL...I don't hit 'em though. Guess that's one gold star for me. 

Hugs,
CZ
 

[honeybearII]

The Silent Treatment is EXTREMELY effective because their refusal to engage in any kind of conversation leaves a person spinning, wondering, never reaching consensus or conclusion.  I will confess, and not be proud of it!, that as the years of his ignoring me spun out,  I got so tired of trying to make him hear me that I finally just shut up and gave him right back a refusal to engage in conversation with HIM.

It is stupid and childish and, yes, ABUSIVE to greet a person's attempt at conversation with monosyllabic answers or downright ignoring techniques.  I HATED it.  It is only now, in a healthy relationship, that I understand REAL and NORMAL partners talk and chat and have conversations about all kind of mundane as well as important things.  It is called SHARING, and it is not something an N will do unless he is nurturing supply.

Honey

[eyes_up]

I have this idea about the violence vs the silence.

The silent treatment is control power over. I thinking you experience Tedi is absolutely justifiable in that it was your only defense to abuse. I have worked silence for silence as well. I didn't plan on being that way but hey the control works either way. Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.

The silence ended up working for me. As I became silent I started doing other things such as plan for escape 

Violence is worse than mental control...I do not agree that one is worse than the other. In fact I have read many times that people who got both treatments said that at least with the physical something was actually happening. the other is just cutting off as if to say one is non existent.  Well that is what I read any way.

It all goes through the mind any way. two different styles filter through the same mind. I do think silencing is the same as being put in a closet and locked up. ya may not bleed from it but from what I've read, people who replied to this...at least if they could feel pain they knew they existed. I wish I had the documentation to go along with my info.

Emotional abusers are smart enough to devise a plan that dose what it is intended with out any obvious visual evidence.

So < i  say don't under estimate the power of the word or the lack of. Words are physical. The psychic body is as real as the physical one. Mental and emotional torture is ultimately a physical torture. the body replies with pain. It is all connected. People commit suicide with mental torture. It goes  deep. Although I have heard that if some one is getting physically hurt then the mental and emotional stuff is already at play any ways.

AND no one is a volunteer until they have a clue to what is happening at the very least.

Paige

[eyes_up]

www.compassionpower.com/emotional%20abuse%20verbal%20abuse.php


"When it comes to the more severe forms of destructiveness, purely emotional abuse is usually more psychologically harmful than physical abuse. There are a couple of reasons for this. Even in the most violent families, the incidents tend to be cyclical. Early in the abuse cycle, a violent outburst is followed by a honeymoon period of remorse, attention, affection, and generosity, but not genuine compassion. (The honeymoon stage eventually ends, as the victim begins to say, “Never mind the damn flowers, just stop hitting me!”) Emotional abuse, on the other hand, tends to happen every day. So the effects are more harmful because they’re so frequent.

 

The other factor that makes emotional abuse so devastating is the greater likelihood that victims will blame themselves. If someone hits you, it’s easier to see that he or she is the problem, but if the abuse is subtle – saying or implying that you’re ugly, a bad parent, stupid, incompetent, not worth attention, or that no one could love you – you are more likely to think it’s your problem. "

Ya know what disgusts me as I read this...is how many years i had ot hear how n one would be able to put up with me and no ne would love me because I was so bla bla bla bla bla ! that would be my mother. Then I thought this was an OK thing to say...as if it made sense since I was so defective. OUCH! Damn it! WEll, not ouch any more but certainly back then the mix up of hearing some one say I love you but then telling me I was unlovable. another good line I had to ingest.. those who are not lovable need love the most.

Today, I hear "I love you" and I do not believe it. Even if it is true, I just do not believe it. Not from my mother any way.

sheesh... what a way to grow and live.

OK I am not tripping. Just recalling.

[Doveflyte]

but after a while I did ask...so why are you here? What is your purpose? And I did ask that question. Now do you think I got an answer. No way.

Yes, Eyes, this is all it is about. They don't leave because they ARE getting what they need. We are easing life for them, eliminating trials, brushing over indiscretions, meals, home, family, errands, details, scheduling, gifts........... Think of what they would need to invest to develop that resource again when they are already receiving it, whether it is a happy situation or not. Honey and I did it for 30 yrs. We totally lost our investment if we were to look at it as selfish gain. Because we (I) not to speak for honey, did it from my heart to be a good wife, mom, member of the community etc and a practicing believer in God's truth our investment accumulated rewards the N will never see.

[practicaljude]

Because we (I) not to speak for honey, did it from my heart to be a good wife, mom, member of the community etc and a practicing believer in God's truth our investment accumulated rewards the N will never see.

Yes Doveflyte,

Beautiful words.  I struggle with how to tell women who view N's as being successful once they've parted ways, just how unsuccessful they really are.  This goes along with the conversation of why N's stay, too.  We have the most beautiful gift of feeling soul connect and disconnect, resulting in healing.  N's don't have that treasure, resulting in a continuous dark hole; empty shell of a person no matter how good their lives appear to be. 

While in crisis and when the pain was so intense I didn't think I'd live through it, a member said to me, "at least you can feel your pain - he doesn't."  This was probably the beginning of true emotional detachment from him.  I realized pain was my feeling, mine to look at, mine to heal. There was a transfomation from what I had invested, to what I was left with, and what I was left with was something I could do something about.

 
Jude

[practicaljude]

Eyes,

I agree one is not worse than the other.  I'm taking CZ's advise and searching articles on different types of abuse. 

http://ezinearticles.com/?Emotional-Abuse-in-Marriage&id=713074

Emotional Abuse is Worse than Physical Abuse


Though emotional abuse unlike physical abuse does not leave us with bruised eyes and swollen faces, still it is worse than physical abuse. The victim often fails to realize that he/she is being abused and may have his/her mind and soul bludgeoned to an extent where he/she may consider himself/herself responsible for his/her plight.

Is Divorce a Solution?


In the long run, emotional abuse may seriously damage a person’s mental and physical health. Under the British Law, emotional abuse is a valid ground for divorce and comes under the ambit of unreasonable behaviour. You have every right to protect yourself and your children from the long term damage of emotional abuse, even if it involves going for a divorce.


Those with NPD are not generally physical abusive (although N became physically abusive right before I left). I know that no two N's are the same.  I'm looking into the long term effects of mental, verbal, emotional and spiritual abuse and from what I see so far, it has long lasting physical effects for the victims.

 
Jude

[eyes_up]

"at least you can feel your pain - he doesn't."

Chances are a lot of the pain that is going on is receiving the narcs pain and but of course displaying before his eyes so that he fools himself into thinking it is not his. I think I felt the narcs pain since he separates from it. that was my job...the pain carrier until I realized I didn't want the position any longer LOL. Narcs are successful at this moment to moment 3 year or 30 years, one day at a time. They do get this task done.

Now of course this isn't a success in my eyes. Heck NO. My job is to ditch the job, leave the position and find out what I want  to do besides be a receptacle for a narcissist. All with in the guise of relationship and love. Narcissist are successful thieves. Black male isn't my idea of living nor loving.

I think the narc that I met up with wasn't to good at his job. He picked me and I didn't hang in there too long. Fact is I went loopy. I couldn't handle the burden of a narcissist. I went nuts and I was unable to cover it up. Don't like keeping secrets either and the whole deal seems to be balancing on the back of one enormous secret. Nothing to gain by being around the narcissist and I found out how much I actually had to lose. I did have a few or more expectation of the relationship and when it wasn't happening and all the other stuff was , well there came a time when i realized I was being fooled and i was chasing a carrot. Hey where is the carrot chasing emocon? guess the  will have to do.

eyes_up

[Freezer Burned]

When I first read about the Silent Treatment being abuse it was like a slap in the face. He could torment me continually until I was so outraged that I was speechless, but I had to force myself to speak to someone that didn't deserve it? Sorry, NO, I was NOT punishing him, I was struggling with all my might to keep from raging at him. But even after he knew why, what a big boohoo baby he was about it, telling me how awful it was for him. Of course what actually angered him was that for several whole days I was not in the gerbil wheel  or walking on eggshells or LISTENING TO HIM!  He actually liked it that I didn't ever talk much, because he needed to be yaking all the time.

- - - - -

"There are no victims only volunteers" - I assume that phrase was coined in the physical abuse situations, where women tend to move back in with their abuser, and then want to regale their erstwhile rescuers with a blow by blow account of their latest beating, every time they get beaten. What it means to me is "Once you fully comprehend that you are in an abusive situation and that it is not going to just get better, you must start planning your escape or you are volunteering to be abused."

- - - - -

Now back to the original topic of this thread, the difference between a jerk and a narcissist:

   A JERK lacks the motivation to grow up, he is careless and thoughtless, his actions are dictated by whim. He might improve if he has a compelling reason to.

   A NARCISSIST refuses to grow up out of spite. He is rebellious and revengeful, but hides it behind a charming smile, the better to eat you with my dear.

[Doveflyte]

I couldn't handle the burden of a narcissist. I went nuts and I was unable to cover it up. Don't like keeping secrets either and the whole deal seems to be balancing on the back of one enormous secret.  --Eyes

Then there are the WoNderful people we turn to for help in this confusing situation who tell us that N is exactly the woNderful person we thought he was in the beginning and we are terribly confused if we don't appreciate his stunning character and personhood. We definitely didn't realize how blessed we were to have been chosen by him and how toleraNt he must be on our behalf out of his uNdivided love. Just how confusing can this situation be?? Then on top of that if we ask questions too soon into the marriage/relationship we are told we aren't mature enough, that relationships take long hard work, that if we bail out so soon how could we possibly really love him?

[sweetest_80]

I have to admit, at first, I began to doubt whether or not ExN was a narcissist or just the garden variety jerk. BUT #1. My education told me otherwise. 2. My GUT told me otherwise...

"This is a key statement because what the narc is saying is taht as soon as things don't go smooth...narcs way...then it is over. S in fact he is telling his narc truth."


-My job was to my the exN happy--at all costs. My job was to sacrifice all of my needs, wants, and dreams to make his come true BUT at the same time look happy and look like some one he would be proud to brag about.  The minute I couldnt do that or WOULDNT do that, it was over.

-The lies he told were insane...I mean just rediculous. For instance, he is essentially a glorified customer service rep at our company. Well I found his dating profile online one day and what does he brand himself? An Architectural Engineer. Yeah, you read it right...I dont even know where that came from!!!

-He would get angry about the most irrational things...to the point of litteral tempertantrums. There were times when I honestly thought I would have to commit him...thats when I knew something wasnt right mentally.

-His coldness was astounding. And his ability to hide it even more so. He went from telling his roomate "Sure...anything you need while you are in the hospital" to wishing her dead behind her back. He did that with alot of people. Loyalty was simply non existent and if he did something nice there was  ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS an alterior motive.

-He needed attention like no one I had ever seen. At first I just chalked it up to being a musician and the standard quirks that come with potential entertainers. But his was different...he wanted it to the point of having NO dignity. When he started working consistently and making respectable money, he would say "wow, I have friends now...I guess they finally like me." Unfortunately, that wasnt condescending. He was perfectly okay knowing that the majority of his relationships were trival and that these people would drop him on a dime just as easily as he would drop them.

-My most recent revelation came when I asked myself; "Why would this guy dump me to stay single, SCOWER the personals looking for another woman (hes on every freakin site you can think of)? Was I really that bad???" I couldnt wrap my mind around it..."If he couldnt treat me well how could he treat anyone else better...maybe it really was just me." It really hurt until I realized one thing...

He truly does want to be loved and valued...he just doesnt want to return it. To love and to be loved requires time, energy and a certain selflessness--that just wasnt his style.

[eyes_up]

Then on top of that if we ask questions too soon into the marriage/relationship we are told we aren't mature enough, that relationships take long hard work, that if we bail out so soon how could we possibly really love him?

YES.. I know this one. YOU are not willing to work hard enough which means you are immature  selfish and lazy (weeak and poor character)...you are like every one else who can not love...YOU are just a percentage...a statistic- a number , spiritually unevolved...YOU just want to go out and swing with many men (ha ha ha ha ha ha)...You don't have the capacity to be committed..and my all time favorite...YOU are emotionally unavailable.

Then came projection...the answer to my prayers!

[CZBZ]

"He truly does want to be loved and valued...he just doesn't want to return it. To love and to be loved requires time, energy and a certain selflessness--that just wasn't his style." ~Sweetest

Fantastic comment...so true, so true! I think it works like this: You give unconditional love to them, and they give conditions to you.


 
CZ

[Doveflyte]

My job was to my the exN happy--at all costs. My job was to sacrifice all of my needs, wants, and dreams to make his come true BUT at the same time look happy and look like some one he would be proud to brag about.  The minute I couldnt do that or WOULDNT do that, it was over.

AMEN, sista, ah know whatya talkin' bout

[wanttobefree]

"He truly does want to be loved and valued...he just doesn't want to return it. To love and to be loved requires time, energy and a certain selflessness--that just wasn't his style." ~Sweetest

Fantastic comment...so true, so true! I think it works like this: You give unconditional love to them, and they give conditions to you.


Oh, thank god I found this place!

[CZBZ]

This thread is now "Read Only". Thank you to everyone participating in this enlightening and powerful discussion.