Did he withhold conversations? Did you? The Silent Treatment

[honeybearII]

There have been several posts recently about the Silent Treatment when trying to either deal with an N, or in the way that he treats his partner.

It got me thinking about the years I lived with my exNH and how we never engaged in any kind of meaningful conversation unless it was about his work or related to HIM in some way.  I would starve for adult conversation when I was home with 3 small children, and he would give me NOTHING.  Yet, I would see where he would call up other women (just "friends" of course...... ) and talk for an hour or more.  After years of all that, I began to find myself employing my OWN form of the "Silent Treatment" by refusing to bother to tell him when something was bothering me.  I figured, by that time, what was the use???

A partner's refusal to share life with you is emotional abuse of the highest order.  You cannot excuse it, as I did, by saying that they are just not talkers when you see them employing all kinds of conversational techniques to snare supply.  Even at the height of our marriage issues, right before I left, I tried and tried to engage him in talking to me.  I was given only monosyllabic replies, or actually totally ignored.  When I raised this issue with our marriage counselor, of course Mr. Wonderful made all kinds of excuses which always had to do with my being a poor listener or that he didn't feel "safe" with me.......both accusations which were totally untrue but managed to make ME look like the one with the problem.

When an N refuses to speak to you for days, weeks, months at a time it makes us feel invisible.  It was one of the defining ways I felt over those years.....like I was an invisible person in my own marriage, and it was devastating to my psyche. 

How about anyone else?  Do you know what I mean?

Honey

[practicaljude]

Yes.  Silent treatment cut to the bone.  At first, I thought it was merely an immature reaction...a temper tantrum.  The first time it lasted 24 hours, I had an overall eerie feeling hard to describe.  I yelled and cried and turned myself inside out attempting a conversation.  He continued to be silent and not look at me with his black eyes staring staight ahead. After many episodes of silent treatment I progressed to saying, "Oh, you're not talking today" and going about my business, not talking to him either.  After learning more about it, I regained some personal power and told him what I needed to say and walked away, not waiting for or expecting a response. 

The time between my first experience with silent treatment, and the time I walked away was ugly.  It was an ugly both physically and emotionally.  It angered me and it the intensity of the control scared me.

I recently read an article that said the silent treatment is one of most sadistic forms of abuse one can experience.  Not only are you invisable, as you said, but your abuser has total control of when he speaks and attempts to control when you speak with the goal of punishment, leaving you voiceless.  Silent treatment is not a temper trantrum, nor a form of "cooling-off" but a sadistic, well-planned form of control with the intent to punish.

When he stayed silent as I planned my escape, I talked to my friends, I talked on the phone and when I'd leave for work I would relay anything he may need to know and I'd say, "Good-bye...hope your day goes well" and keep right on walking.  I'd get in the car and say to myself...You are one crazy-a**, abusive ****** and vow he would not ruin my day.  There is no excuse for wounds that were cut so deeply.  The only way to rid myself of the silent treatment was to get away permanently.

Thanks for talking about this honey,

 
Jude

   

[jenrussell2]

 This is a subject that I have been trying to cope with. Practicaljude my experiences have been just like yours.  He would know how upset I was and pleading for it to stop. He would then finally start shouting, telling me why he had been angry, that it had all been my fault and that it was over between us.  I would try to argue back, trying to voice my opinion that I had done nothing wrong,  but he would just shot even louder and the language was vile.   He would then use sex as a way to stop the conversation going further.

I mistakenly thought it was his way of trying to get things back to normal, whatever that was.  When it was over it was like he was a different person.  At the time I just went along with it because I knew he would then calm down.  It was like it was a turn on for him, and it probably always was.   The control he had over me was scary and I do not like the person I became to cope with it. 

He used to share his personal life with me when we first met, but that stopped after a few weeks.  He told me what he wanted me to know, most of it about his sex life and his likes and dislikes.   

Once again, the eyes played a big part.  Looking at me straight in the face, eyes screwed up, mouth tight, skin tight, piercing eyes that went right through me.  I learned not to make eye contact with him.  He had such beautiful blue eyes, but they seemed to go black when he was having his temper tantrums if things weren't going his way.

I would try to ignore the silent treatment and give it back, but oh it hurt so bad.  I had never experienced it before and it hurt like I had never been hurt before.

It still hurts.

My ex husband of 23 years used to give me the silent treatment too, but nowhere near as bad as this N.  He would come home from work and pick up a book. I would talk to myself in front of him and answer myself. He never heard a word.  But the silent treatment never hurt like I got hurt and degraded by this N.  How pitiful I must have looked in his eyes.

[CZBZ]

"When I raised this issue with our marriage counselor, of course Mr. Wonderful made all kinds of excuses which always had to do with my being a poor listener or that he didn't feel "safe" with me.......both accusations which were totally untrue but managed to make ME look like the one with the problem." ~Honeybear


And there ya go, bringing up the issue of joint counseling as a secondary wounding if we're unaware (and the therapist is unaware) that a partner is well-skilled in manipulating reality. I was so intent on saving my marriage that my boundaries were nearly non-existent. If I could take responsibility for whatever he said the problem might be, it gave me a false sense of control. If the communication problem was mine, I could fix it.

When a spouse says they didn't feel 'heard' by their partner, it may be an old cliche' we assume to be true which only works to the narcissist's advantage. One advantage being that the attention is back on the spouse as an inadequate partner (blame). She/he often feels guilty for being pre-occupied with problems (shame). Then, the 'accused' spouse falsely assumes that listening more carefully, or being more attentive, will result in their relationship blossoming like roses on a thorny bush. (Desperate Hope).

The Silent Treatment or Withdrawal?

Here's where I made a huge mistake and it sounds like other people have, too: If we withdrew into ourselves after being hurt or confused, we'll assume other people's silence means they're working things out, too. But two silences do not an equal make. They aren't the same at all because each form of 'silence' has a different motivation:

1-For the 'hurting' person, withdrawal/silence means they are grappling with the emotional process, often gaining insight and resolution. This period of withdrawal is not about punishing the partner.

2-The Silent Treatment serves an important purpose: control and Power Over. Make the punished partner feel so invisible they finally break down and the manipulator gets what s/he wants. Even after The Silent Treatment , the threat is always there: "Do what I want or I'll wish you dead." To me, The Silent Treatment is like psychological murder: "I do not acknowledge your existence."

The Silent Treatment is a Win or Lose game. Whoever speaks first is the Loser.

I never grew up learning how to confront directly. My reaction to criticisms & insults was to withdraw. The only person I punished was my Self by giving ME The Silent Treatment and not listening to my intuition.

If I withdrew into myself, it certainly wasn't because I wanted to PUNISH my partner, but because I didn't know how to deal with insults and attacks from someone I trusted. He, of course, insisted we discuss everything, which seemed to be a healthier resolution than what I learned at my parents' knees. Even our religious counseling suggested we talk everything out before we went to sleep at night. This suggestion appeared to be spiritually sound advice coming from the pulpit, but ONLY if both people were normal-enough. 

Those long, long talks were more about Manipulation and coercion than mutual self-disclosure and vulnerability! What did I really know about his fears, weaknesses and intentions? Not much. Maybe we can be victims of the silent treatment, despite the fact that the N's lips are moving at warp speed?  Even if they're talking, we'll only know what they want us to know. What do they learn about us? EVERYTHING.  The less he said, the more i filled-in-the-blanks.

I think it's important to note the difference between The Silent Treatment and Withdrawal. Withdrawal is a reaction to our hurt; The Silent Treatment is manipulation and punishment. Even those times when I couldn't put words to my feelings, punishing my partner was never my intent. I'd draw up inside myself and work through my feelings.

Here's a thought that just occured to me--maybe it will resonate with other people, too: I withdrew to better control MYSELF. Ns use The Silent Treatment to better control OTHERS.


Hugs,

CZ

[eyes_up]

 "I didn't know how to deal with insults and attacks from someone I trusted." ~ CZ

Yes well, dealing with abuse while standing with in the parameters of trust really doesn't actually make sense. It would be obvious that understanding it would be impossible. And while a person is trying to rationalize it all the focus is on "us" in the name of trust blind to the fact of abuse is not something to trust untill one can trust thier insticts to recognize abuse is active.

 
The rationalizing takes the head out of the actual experience and puts it to work a solving a puzzle that doesn't match up.

Yes I have, in my past, had a hard time understanding how I will be trusting an abusive person. It is as if I was told I wasn't allowed to experience mistrust so I very well better focus on the trust and how to create that experience rather than admit to the reality.

I consider the various forms of silencing.

One form that hits me square between the eyes is lack of self trust which is a form of silencing that is done though words and behaviors. quiet/cut off behavior is not the only way to be silenced

I am on a board supporting people w/ PTSD. Most of my friends there have been traumatized by physical and emotional abuse. What appears to be the main problem is not the initial physical crime but the inability, the refusal of the parents or community to acknowledge. the child is harmed, silenced, ignored and further punished /scape goated, blamed for the crime of another.

Like an adult in a narcissistic situation ...the child has no voice and the control is ON. Both the child and the adult are to accept this and contnuing pressing the instincts and intuition way down and keep working on the illusion of Love and Trust.

This most certainly came up for me with a narcissistic partner. The inability to claim my rights to call it what it is and respond to abuse accordingly. But, NO . Trapped in the silent treatment. the silent treatment allows every thing to happen. The silent treatment robs a child of voice and then the child with no voice grows up an still doesn't have a voice.

A bully at school is pushing a child around. He/ She goes home to tell parent. Parent ignores and this changes the situation entirely.

Getting punched is one thing but to be held responsible for the punch  crates the ultimate terror...helplessness and fear of just about anything happening and absolutely no protection.

Meeting up with a narcissist is OLD HAT. The narc produced the same reality I had as a child... fear for my life. Afraid of the next out burst.

I can honestly say that waiting for the physical out burst is just as terrorizing as the actual physical out burst and in the mean time I hid. Did same thing with the narcissist. I would hide at home and then when the phone would ring I would be afraid to answer it but I had to answer it or the narc should be at my door yelling at me for not answering or where was I ???

Was there any one around to support me...where was my family HA HA HA, where was my community ? Well, I finally paid for support .

My own mother to this days allows my brothers abusive behavior to exist. She says she has no right to tell him what to do...he is an adult.

The silent treatment works in many ways. The silencing narcissist has many friends to back him up and maintains his upkeep.

This is why it is incredibly important to reclaim ones voice. If victims do not take that step towards survivor then the world is hanging low ...sagging with the weight of the controlled and the controller. 

Silencing was a moment to moment experience with the narcissist. it didn't just happen because he shut up and stared insanely...blankly. All conversations were controlled in and around the more obvious tactic. I was punished for speaking up. Left behind to parties I had been invited to. Told I would be able to behave. This list is long and it all ammounts ot the same thing.

I was unable to escape the conditions until the original conditions that created the original victimization was dealt with.

The silent treatment has been a part of my life since the day I couldn't speak because I was still peeing in my pants.

With out the silent treatment  all violations would be addressed and dealt with in a timely manner such as immediately.

"Did he withhold conversations?  Did you?  The Silent Treatment"

Of course I with held conversations. conversations were just a means to do the same thing the lack of conversation did. There was no difference. Talking or not talking was the 2 halves of the whole. I honestly was happy he got into the mood to do silent treatment and I was glad to say the right thing to put it there. then I could go home and do something different.

Conversations were headed for the silent treatment. There was no separation in the agenda. What to do? I would be accused of something ..I wouldn't agree, I would defend myself. I would  say something smart and accurate and then I was silenced. I asked questions that the narc couldn't answer to. I expected the silence treatment. I looked forward to the silent treatment. that meant I could come home and read John Bradshaw books and relationship addiction book. HA HA HA HA HA! that is the way it worked.

sure at first sight of the obvious silent treatment I went into shock. but later it was habitual and really time consuming. so I just started getting sick and injured so I had to stay at home. 

eyes_up   

[Doveflyte]

I agree with CZ's point there is a difference between silent treatment and withdrawal. I withdrew. Starving for adult conversation I found forums on the net that then 'informed' me. I grew in leaps and bounds and am still realizing nine months after the separation what awful behavior I tolerated for so long.

There was another use of sex by N though. Whenever we had an arguement even if he is the one who shut down discussion if and when we had sex that obviously meant I no longer disagreed. My sex was consent to his opinion, his authority because in his mind I couldn't possibly have really had an orgasm (remember when harry meets sally?) if I didn't 100% love him and if I 100% loved him then I couldn't possibly disagree with him, right?????? I hated sex by the end of the relationship. I did everything I could to avoid it until I finally left his bedroom until I could find a safe way out. Nine months out, he's gone, and yesterday I experienced this strangest feeling. It happened when a real nice figure of a man walked by. Hmmm Maybe I am not as desexed as he claims I am, fridig in bed, uncooperative, unloving, unfeeling. Maybe there is a life with a rainbow.

[practicaljude]

http://www.psych.purdue.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=325&Itemid=82

When a person is ostracized for even a brief period of time, the anterior cingulate cortex, the part of the brain that detects pain, is activated, Williams says. People experience the same initial pain when excluded by strangers or close friends, or even enemies. However, the pain may not linger once the person has had time to consider the importance of the group which has excluded him or her or had time to talk about it with a friend, Williams says.

"Ostracism is one of the most widely used forms of social punishment, and some see it as more humane than corporal punishment, as when used in a time-out, but there is a deeper psychological impact that needs to be taken seriously," he says. "We know that when people are ostracized, it can affect their perceptions, physiological conditions, attitude and behavior - all of which sometimes can lead to aggression."

 
Jude

[practicaljude]

This was taken from an article about narcissists.  I thought the excuses were interesting.  The one I heard most often was, "I didn't want to fight."

 
Jude



As with most abusers, they are in denial over their own abuse. They may use the excuses:

I needed to have some space
I thought you needed some space
I was feeling depressed and didn't want to drag you down with me
I thought we both need a cooling off period
I felt threatened/insulted/hurt and reacted with fear and isolation
I just needed some time alone to think
I didn't want to fight
You told me to leave you alone
Problems from my past came up and I needed to sort them out

http://abuse101.com/silenttreatmentandabuse.html

[IA101]

It got me thinking about the years I lived with my exNH and how we never engaged in any kind of meaningful conversation unless it was about his work or related to HIM in some way.  I would starve for adult conversation when I was home with 3 small children, and he would give me NOTHING.

  -Honeybear-

That pretty much sums up my experience.  It is still that way, too.  I call it talking at me instead of to me.  Thankfully, I spent a couple years examining his crazy making behaviors like a bug under a microscope and am now out of the fog.  It rarely bothers me anymore.  He speaks and I see lips moving but hear no sound.  Kinda of like the teacher in Charlie Brown...wha wha wha.

He would go into silence [control], especially after an argument, and I would withdraw [introspection].  I would make myself crazy trying to figure out what I did wrong, what to do differently...  We all know that drill.  I don't do that drill anymore either.  I have to confess, that it's a bit satisfying to watch the N spin the web only to see no results.  I puzzles him greatly that I no longer respond in the manner to which he is accustomed. 

IA

[CZBZ]

I brought up the topic of 'withdrawal' because if most people are like myself, we'll criticize ourselves for withdrawing . We might even blame ourselves for using The Silent Treatment when in fact, it's not ostracism & punishment, it's self-protection.

I had an extremely difficult time expressing myself and being heard by someone who could not empathize. Putting my emotions into words was like catching butterflies...once in awhile I'd catch a specific emotion but if the other person didn't have a similar reservoir of feelings, the conversation went no where. I'd feel so frustrated with myself because I couldn't put my feelings into words. But with a narcissist who lacks emotional intelligence, I was forced to put words to a feeling and explain my reactions over and over and over.

Long conversations about my reactions was like being on trial for being human. 

Withdrawal was the only way to resolve my feelings because talking about them in an analytical fashion only made me feel WORSE, not better. How do we put a feeling into words???? Well, first of all, we can't. Second of all, my task was understanding my feelings (since they're mine) without inviting a visitor into my inner chapel. Boundaries come to mind as I write this...withdrawal was a way to reinforce boundaries for myself.

The Silent Treatment is entirely different when used by an abuser to escalate abandoment fears. Everybody has fears about abandonment, or so the psychological literature tells us. We're social creatures who need to be connected to one another, even connections that hurt. Any threat to ending those connections brings up primal fears about rejection. Even though we're not as reliant on one another as we were in Hunting & Gathering Societies, the FEAR is still there---deeply embedded in the brain. And that's what gets us in serious trouble if we're reacting to unconscious scripts.

Basically, since I'm such a talker, being isolated or ostracized is an excruciatingly painful experience. I feel it all the way to my bones---or maybe I should say "All the way to my anterior cingulate cortex."

A manipulator recognizes the power s/he holds over others by using The Silent Treatment to activate their fears and encourage them react to those fears. I didn't know and maybe most people don't know, how central 'connection/inclusion' is to our mental, physical, spiritual and emotional health. If we had any 'abandonment/rejection' issues as children---we'll be reacting to that FEAR and allowing the narcissist to gain even more control. (Ns must maintain control or their fears are exacerbated).

Fears about abandonment haunt us throughout our lives but are increased if we're with a narcissist who is constantly sending signals that we're replaceable, worthless or defective. Instead of seeing him or her as playing on our fears, we'll try even harder to please the N so he-or-she won't leave as threatened. It's bizarre looking back at my life and seeing how my unconscious fears held me hostage!! Sometimes I just marvel at how I made it to age 57 considering how little I really knew about myself.

In thinking about this thread, what came up for me is how ignorant I was about the unconscious, about my human fears and needs. Once we understand the importance of trustworthy connections, we're not so easily manipulated. I can tell myself, "You're just feeling afraid because your brain is ancient. That was then and this is now."

The Silent Treatment brings up all those fears for me but at least now, I can logic my way through my feelings. Not that I don't react anymore  but I'm far more aware which gives me power to choose my reactions while those miserable, FEARFUL emotions run their course and eventually settle down.

I had a situation not too long ago when a friend said "I'm not speaking to you right now. You hurt my feelings."

Wow, if she was unwilling to tell me how I had hurt her feelings, I was powerless to make amends (IF amends were appropriate...some folks are dedicated to seeing criticism where there is none). Her statement "I'm NOT speaking to you right now" was definitely a punishment. Instead of grabbing a whipping stick and beating myself over the head though, I replied, "That's your decision and your right." I didn't press her for more information nor say "WHAT DID I DO? I'M SO SORRY!" (which is what I ALWAYS did in the past). This was a healthier way to keep responsibility for her choice on her shoulders and stop blaming myself for someone else's decision.

I can name so many Silent Treatments over the years it's amazing. Maybe people do this instinctively because it works...they get their way and The Silenced person is properly chastised, relegated to an apologetic position. Then, the 'ostracized' is even more hyper-vigilant about offending that person...this is no way to establish intimacy and trust. it is a perfect way to set up a Power Over relationship. We have been sufficiently chastised for offending the controller. NOTE: Being uppity is a serious offense if we make the mistake of assuming we are peers.

I had to become more comfortable with rejection in order to allow someone to make the choice to end our relationship without me begging them to stay or apologizing profusely. I am getting more comfortable with ending relationships with people and things. At this point in life, I list my losses on speed dial...Feelin' bad about so-and-so? Press Six. Missing such-and-such? Press ten. Got a giant hole in yer gut? Press one.


Hugs,

CZ

[eyes_up]

""You're just feeling afraid because your brain is ancient. That was then and this is now." ~ CZ aka Charlott

Hey ..sounds like you've hanging around my therapist ...HA HA HA HA And doing trauma exercises. )

yep, once I figured out how the parts worked  It gets a whole lot easier to make any buttons necessary and press them when necessary.

I pressed a button just yestrday . No# 32. Number thirty two says ...don't over react . Take some time.

So I did. I stepped back from the info presented and didn't take on the emotional climate the speaker was engaging with.
OH HO! Now that is EI (emotional intelligence) BIG Time. 

I had to calm my own boss down. She was entirely upset because some one who attended a class of mine made a complaint and said I was rude.The threat is in my field. Do I respond like an animal who might not have dinner at 7 pm or a roof over my head in a week or so?

This person who complained did not talk to me about it...that is the first sign to me that something fishy is up with the other person comment. Her feelings are hers and so far no one has shared her experience. but, Maybe I will be punished.

No one in 6 years has had anything but good stuff to say in terms of my job performance.

Then come boss freaking out telling me if I get another complaint I lose my job.

All of this information is so incredibly STUPID...meaning unlearned, it is difficult for me to understand why I am calming the boss down. Heck, it is my job that is easily threatened because of the method purposed in dealing with such situations.

I managed not to get disgusted because I really don't want ot do one more thing that changes my bodies chemistry & mood in terms of ignorance.

I did not go into defense mode. I did not align with the comment as if it had some certain solid truth.
But to think that one voice could make it so I would lose my job...well..I did get angry. I didn't speak angry though. I mean this is a major threat...no job. And the person no one knows has all the clout.

So, I talked to my boss about projection. I kept my voice calm. I realized I was not talking to a "peer" in terms of understanding and knowledge...just a hysterical person. who was displacing her own anxiety from other areas into my ear.

Things sure would be different if every one took responsibilities for their emotions that is for sure...but at least one of us was able to do this.

I expressed how entirely horrible it is to think that any person could make a comment and it would be taken as fact and I had no voice even though I have been doing the job for this company 6 years. Not all companies act in this way.

Part of my job is to mellow the coordinator out. Why is she the coordinator??? GOT ME.

In any case..button #32 worked and the old devalue button is not doing the talking any more. "devalue" button is an old operating system which was built by abusive experiences during childhood and then kept few narcissists entertained for a while.

It takes every molecule of attention to stop the limbic system from tipping off & springing into action to save me from the drama monster.

Now I have a greater idea of what it meant when my therapist said "make new buttons" after I had informed him that the narcissist knew how to play all my buttons. Old operating systems die hard but they can be shut down.

Cheers,

eyes

 

[honeybearII]

I had to make a whole new BUNCH of buttons after I left the NH.  It wasn't easy, but I find that instead of jumping on the defensive, as I did ALL THE TIME when married to Mr. Stupid, I am able to stop, listen to the other person, and then figure out what they are trying to say to me.  Many times they aren't saying a thing that really applies to me or my actions, but something has pushed THEIR button, and they need someone to just listen. 

Like you, eyes, I sometimes have a parent criticize some aspect of my teaching, and most of them don't come to ME, they complain to my supervisor.  That immedately says to me that they haven't thought through their complaint, they just want to vent.  Fine.  Luckily I have a terrific supervisor who wll say, "Let's see what the REAL issue is".  Then we compromise, we agree on strategy, and the person feels not only heard, but like someone is willing to take action to recitify.

That is the way real people, NORMAL people, work with conflict management.  It is HARD learning that skill after living with an N, because we are so programmed to defend ourselves after years of being blamed for every gosh-darn thing.  It took a lot of work for me to walk away from a normal pattern of defense developed over years and years and no longer feel the need to defend everything I do.  Sometimes I AM wrong, and now when I am I can say sincerely, "I'm sorry and I will deal with it".

How freeing.
HOney

[Cornfield]

I wrote a long reply to this conversation and it didn't go to the board when I posted it, so I am having problems with participating.   I don't know what I am doing wrong, but it was a terrific post!    Cornfield

[Proud2B]

I don't know where to begin!  My exn was/is a master manipulator.  He used every trick in the book - including the Silent Treatment, avoidance, devaluing, discarding....  He very masterfully played upon my Abandonment Fears.  For several years he repeatedly said, "I'm leaving the area in five years, and you will want to stay becasue your son is here."  Then it became four years, then three, then two, then one, and finally he moved out.  That was three years ago yesterday.  There was no discussion, no "I want you to come with me", or "I'll only go if we both go..", or "what do you want to do?"  No, nothing, nada.  Nothing of the sort.  For years I tolerated that cr*p.  It was destabilizing and had a huge impact on my sense of security.  I kowtowed becasue i didn't want him to leave.  I thought if I was just good enough, pretty enough, smart enough, skinny enough, fill-in-the-bland enough, he would stick around instead of abandoning me.  It was excruciatingly painful -physically, emotionally, and mentally.       

One time in counseling I was asked to name something that occured recently that upset me.  I mentioned a 'trend' of his where he would answer in monosyllabic words when we talked on the phone.  It invariably left me feeling dejected, isolated, hurt, and confused.  I didn't know why he was doing it, or how I could get him to stop.  He would be out of town so the phone was our only method of communicating.  He was go quick to get off the phone - a total reversal of how things used to be.  So his 'abruptness' (putting it kindly) hurt very much.  He sat there and admitted to it! in counseling, but nothing ever changed.

Yes, Power Over.  He accused me of withdrawing, which was justification for him yelling and being mean, trying to get me to 'come back' to him.  Jeez...I suppose it never occurred to him to be nice to me.  But I can honestly say I withdrew so I could process events, and feelings, and try to make sense of the craziness.  Honestly, I have never met such a bunch of f'ed-up people as him and his two children.  I am soooooo thankful I am out of that situation.   

Yep, the Silent Treatment was his weapon of choice.  I also told him many times how hurtful it was to hear him talking and laughing with other people, and sharing things with them that I desperately wanted him to share with me.  I would overhear him having a conversation about our family members, - confidential things about family members that he really had no business sharing with others - and that is how I learned of if.  But now that I think about, knowing what was appropriate to share or not share was never his strong suite.

I think he has Asperger's, personally.  I think so because he is a master at projection, and he accused a co-worker of having it.  Hahaha!  If he said it, it must be so!  And if I wanted to know what he was up to all I had to do was think about the latest thing he accused me of doing.  He says he still has dreams that I'm with another man, and that I had affairs while we were together.  Never in the whole time we were together was I unfaithful in any way.  On the other hand, he ended up having an affair with The Church Secretary.  The irony is undeniable.
     

He avoided eye contact though.  Still does.

I find when we are in meetings and I have to address him directly, I do not look at him.  I look in his general direction, but I am very, very careful to not look at his face, or look him in the eyes.  I haven't figured it out yet, but I think I refuse to look him in the eye partly because I am angry, and I do not want to validate him in anyway.  He is NOT a nice person.  In fact, he's a poor excuse for a human being.  I don't want to encourage the bazturd.  That, and I am protecting myself by not engaging him or acknowledging him beyond the absolute minimum.

I can email him all day long about work related things, but any personal contact is out of the question, and that includes eye contact and physical proximity.  I give him a w-i-d-e berth anytime I see him coming.

I am so thankful that I am slowly but surely regaining my voice.  Like Eyes says, it is crucial to have voice.  Give it a few more months or years, and I might be 'roaring'.  hahaha!     

Love to all,
Proud
 
 

[eyes_up]

Having voice is being centered in self not other.

It is like saying I am a country...I'll call myself Africa and then there is France.

While being Africa  if I am only paying attention to France...Motivating from what France has to say...what are the styles and the rituals of France I am not moving motivating from where I exist but through where another exists. I am not walking on my own land but imagining how it is to be walking in France and motivating from another countries existence for my existence and ignoring my own innate experience of jungles, deserts, and Zebras.

What is interesting abut this is that while I can not be France...I feel rejected by France and underneath that I am feeling rejected at core because I am allowing myself to not take care of my country..the people are starving, The animals are being shot and the water is filthy. I have thrown out my own country  thinking that abiding by another is superior. My own land gets angry because  my resistance and preoccupation w/ France. My own home land is experiencing famine.Sure France might have manipulated me in order to get free hands and extra help to cultivate the country..for the welfare of  Frances people...but at the expense of Africas people.

If pleasing France means that I will have to get rid of all the wild life, I say go be France and I am going to dedicate myself to being Africa. My land deserves cultivation & attention. You have your own land to tend to. So get busy!

I can hear the roar of the lion here

eyes

[CZBZ]

"I wrote a long reply to this conversation and it didn't go to the board when I posted it, so I am having problems with participating.   I don't know what I am doing wrong, but it was a terrific post! ~Cornfield"

I'll bet it was, Cornfield!  You have a powerful style of saying a whole lot in a few words...

If you post a message and it doesn't show up, try using the BACK BUTTON on your monitor. On this forum, prior written message will reappear and we can try clicking POST again.

On the old MSN forum, the message was gone forever, but not on this forum. I've used my Back Button several time and my message has always reappeared. Hope that helps!


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

"I am so thankful that I am slowly but surely regaining my voice.  Like Eyes says, it is crucial to have voice.  Give it a few more months or years, and I might be 'roaring'."~Proud

I can hear a slight roar already and I haven't even turned up my speakers. 

Don't you think that becoming AWARE of our human reaction to threats of abandonment or rejection is empowering? If we don't have information to understand our emotional triggers, we'll misinterpret them as 'undying love' for someone who threatens to leave. I've never been so overwhelmed with YEARNING for a lost object like I experienced during the Devalue & Discard. Suddenly, my entire body was flooded with emotions that destabilized me completely since I mistook them for LOVE. Love for someone who was not committed to me as a person, but used my fear to keep me attached to him more than ever. It was such a confusing period in my life and I was terribly uninformed about a natural reaction to ENDING an important relationship---one that I wanted, even though it was not reciprocally valued by the 'leaver'. The angst of separating superceded all reason which may be why outsiders see us as being 'clingy' or 'unreasonable'. Until those outsiders are in our shoes however, they can't even fathom the body's response to brain signals urging us to do whatever it takes to stay connected!

It ain't easy to disconnect when we're connectors: people who value relationships as being integral to our survival. I had to face a fear I didn't even know was there while at the same time, establish other connections to hold me steady. Those connections were made with people like yourself who reminded me that I was valuable, safe and worthy. For that reason, I'm dedicated to the message board process as a means to counteract the devastation we feel when someone we love does not OR cannot, love us back. The pain is overwhelming and we're tempted to do things that make us feel like fools once we've restored our sense of self. I cannot (and most folks say the same thing) believe my self-defeating behavior trying to PLEASE someone who threatened to leave. The only thing that helped me stop pathologizing myself for being a triple-idiot was learning about our human reactions to abandoment. Susan Anderson's book "The Journey from Abandonment to Healing' was a life-saver...it took quite a long time for my emotions to work themselves out even after i had a head full of knowledge and a nightstand full of articles. 

Now that we're AWARE of our fear of abandonment as human and normal, we might continue feeling distraught whenever ANYONE decides to cut us out of their lives. The key thing for me is recognizing my anxiety as 'fear of abandonment', honoring the precedent to this fear as childhood trauma, and then loving myself for being resilient enough to maintain conscious understanding without using unconscious defenses to protect myself from the original pain I could not process as a child. I believe Ns feed on our unconscious 'fears' or unresolved trauma and until we are strong enough to face what scared us as children, the narcissist will maintain power in the present granted to him-or-her from our past.

I also believe our healing process will be LONG TERM. There is no short-term fix that will eradicate the very behaviors that kept us in relationship with someone who used Power & Control to keep us in in place. I am dedicated to freeing myself from dysfunctional behaviors that limit my life and make me susceptible to another person who only feels safe when he-or-she maintains control. Had someone told me that the end of my marriage would require YEARS of recovery-work, I might have been fearful of my ability to persevere. Of course I'd think that thought since most people underestimate their resiliency and strength!

I like how Honeybear's thread has brought up OUR reactions to The Silent Treatment. It's important to talk about narcissism and the numerous ways narcissists manipulate people but it's IMPERATIVE to talk about ourselves. Sometimes it's kinda embarrassing to admit what foolish mistakes we made when we were reacting to fears we didn't even know were there. But after awhile, we get used to being imperfect and fallible when other people validate our stories and tell us, "Hey, I did that, too." I cannot ever express how fundamental cyberfriend's support has been for me when I felt like a total piece of dog-doo.

I found my Voice on message boards and HOPE sincerely that other people can do the same thing for themselves. If one person rejects you, shames you, makes you feel worthless or inadequate, try making NEW connections. Those new connections remind us that we are WoNderful people who are worthy of commitment, inclusion, and love.

At first, my reaction to rejection was to withdraw---just curl up in my bed and never get out again. Each time I took the risk to befriend another person, the giant hole in my gut began to heal. ONE person who cares is all it takes to diminish our worthlessness and kick-start a healing process that often requires 'acceptance' of childhood wounds. If we truly love ourselves---if we truly want to be the person we believe we can be---we'll invest our time and our energy into a s-l-o-w recovery awakening an even deeper and more intimate knowledge of Self.

I referred to a 'friend' who used The Silent Treatment to punish me for disagreeing with something she did that I felt was inappropriate. Because I had educated myself about emotional reactions to sudden endings, I could NAME what scared me. This kept me from obsessing on her silence, wondering what I DID to make her act that way and it also protected her from my need-to-please (I call it: groveling for friendship, ha!)

After a cooling off period during which I allowed her the dignity to own her behavior, we're speaking again.  As long as I was cluelessly misinterpreting my emotions, I only made things worse. By the way, this 'friend' has used The Silent Treatment her whole life and it's always gotten her what she wanted. Even her husband relents after two days of note-passing between herself and their kids. She even enforced The Silent Treatment for six years because her sister-in-law offended her. 

By the way, The Silent Treatment is NOT the same thing as NO CONTACT. That's another distinction to be made on this thread. NO CONTACT is about re-grounding ourselves and esablishing healthy self-protective boundaries. It is NOT about punishment, manipulation and control of the other person. If those three factors are at play during NO CONTACT, I think it's fair to say it's The Silent Treatment, a coercive ploy to exacerbate someone's natural fears of abandonment.



Hugs,

CZBZ

[honeybearII]

CZ, thank you for the clarificaton about Silent Treatment and No Contact.  We suggest no contact when trying to re-ground, but if you go into that phase thinking that somehow it will "get to him", then you miss the point entirely.  It is not ABOUT him.  It is about us needing to disconnect from any and all conversations and to take ourselves out of the aura of their manipulations.

I think a lot of people who live with narcissism end up employing the some form of the Silent Treatment if they live with them for very long.  As CZ said, it usually comes about when we realize that we have no real voice in a relationship.  When we talk and talk and talk and finally understand that the other person does not want to hear us, let alone try to understand where we are coming from, it renders us so inivisible that sooner or later we give up any attempts at conversation, and when conflicts arise we simply withdraw into ourselves.  That is also different from what an N does when he refuses to engage us in simple, everyday conversations that are a part of living with another person.  That is an insidious and abusive kind of silence that tells us, very clearly, that we are defnitely not worth their time and they have no intention of sharing their lives with us.

The hurt that washed over me when I discovered that he would spend hours and hours talking to other women - never to me - was so deep and even now brings tears.  I felt so abandoned, so alone, and so totally worthless that my husband who I BEGGED to connect with me was giving all that attention to others but saw me as so worthless and so undeserving of attention that he could not share even the most minute aspects of his life and his thoughts.  It was indescribably hurtful, and especially since most people would probably define me as easy to talk to and a good listener and conversatiionalist.  Even now, I wonder why in the world he never saw in ME what he so freely saw in others.  It is crazy-making, isn't it?

Honey

[practicaljude]

Hi Honeybear,

Even now, I wonder why in the world he never saw in ME what he so freely saw in others.  It is crazy-making, isn't it?


This is what I ruminated over for so long.  What do the two of them share, we didn't?  Why, when I have done and will do anything for this man did he choose to spend his time with another woman?  How could he wipe his hands, cut me off from conversation, treat me as if I didn’t exist and feel good about himself?  Well, he saw you alright!  He saw and took for years. There is one explanation:  SUPPLY.  It didn’t have anything to do with you and all to do with him.

At some point, he extracted all he could from you.  He reached his max of mirroring you.  This, combined with knowing you KNEW him, is fertile ground for an N to move on.  He could create a whole new persona with another woman to impress her as well as bullshite her. It was his time to “get” somewhere else and although sex is usually part of the gettin’ it’s generally not about sex to the N.

N actually took on the persona, likes and interests of other women while he attempted to get them in “his court.”  I believe he sensed the ‘power over’ would no longer work for him at home.  New supply is new supply and it erases everything you shared.  The need for new supply is so critical to the N, it erases people at all cost.  Without empathy or notion of consequences, they are free birds, flitting from worm to worm.

This tore my heart out, too.  What did he see in her?  What was so special about her he’d risk it all?  Well, after I sat back and studied him as a supply snatcher…it became easier…not less painful at the time but easier.  And, the N I was with was so transparent.  One day he came home with a stack of books and he started reading.  N was NOT a reader.   So, because this OW worked with us, I realized she was giving him her old books.  At home, he became obsessed with reading.  As soon as he was done with her, the reading stopped.  Another example:  One woman liked country music.  N hated country music but all of a sudden was copying my CD’s.  I found he took on a likin’ to county music…just for a little while, you see.  I have many, many, many more examples of how he transformed into whatever he thought THEY were interested in.
 
I watched him do this in my face with the reader.  He used to take breaks with me and it meant he’d have to leave the area he worked in to come and visit.  One day I realized he was no longer coming so I went to the area he worked in.  There they sat…about 3 inches apart…reading.  I dissolved, went home and argued with him about their close proximity, and he told me I was “crazy and jealous.”  When I found her long distance number listed many times on MY phone bill, I kicked him out of my house.  Guess where he took up temporary shelter?  Just a little aside: when I later confronted him about calling her with phone bill in hand, he denied calling her.  Talk about ME freaking!  So, I moved closer to him to SHOW him the numbers on the phone bill…he never responded.  He REFUSED to say a word.

He took my caring, empathy, compassion, interests, creativity, sharing and love and stored it.  This gave him the momentum (nothing internal) to be able to pluck another worm from the ground.  Just as you knew your N, I KNEW HIM and he KNEW it…a dangerous time for N.  Time to move on, find other supply to suck up and without anything in his heart or mind telling him its wrong, he just simply CUT me from his existence. 

As we know, in N fashion, he had moments where he worried about the new supply’s ability to sustain him, so he later attempted to keep me as a “back-up.”  To come back into our good graces, they take whatever they’ve got left over of learned behavior FROM US (or new supply) and act as if they have emotion.  During all of this, he was on the computer searching new supply…JUST IN CASE we all stopped adoring him.

No rational, caring person would understand this.  No one with soul can figure out how it becomes easy to discard another.  It's all the beautiful things about you that were mirrored all those years.  Your pain is appropriate, yet so much less than the intensity of his TAKE and discard.  Even after years of healing, soul finding and new relationships, we search for meaning and there is nothing to define such abuse and cruelty…not in a soulful existence, anyway.

 
Jude

[honeybearII]

Wow, Jude, even after all this time it is so validating to read your experiences with the N that so mirror my own.

I also watched Mr. Stupid "become" the person he was trying to seduce.  Every new woman became a new obsession into something he had absolutely NO interest in before that time.  Woman gone?  Interest gone.  I'm sitting here and realizing that the man had absolutely NO interests in things (except his career field) that had not been taken up for short times when he was in Seduction Mode.  What is so fascinating as I am pondering this, is that many of those interests were things that I had enjoyed for years and he had no interest in pursuing with ME.

God, could ANYTHING be more hurtful than what an N does to us???  I, also, got total and complete denials from him when I would confront him about phone bills, things I saw pass between him and anothere woman, all the things that were SCREAMING at me that something was terribly "off".  But somehow it would all get turned around and I would end up crying and apologizing for not being the supportive, accepting wife he "needed". 

Honey

[eyes_up]

As I read others responses to the OW...the facades created for supply etc what was funny about my experience is that the narc took from both males and females.

 Now, I wasn't married to the narcissist but I was in a intimate (or so I thought) relationship which means to me that the primary partner is No. 1. But of course this wouldn't be true with a narcissist . the No 1 relationship is the narcissist with the narcissist.

There fore the harvest of supply was constant and with every one not just another woman.

What I found interesting was watching the narcissist begin to copy me and then the next minute copying some one else.


The first year with a narc I was able to see this reenactment of myself or at least the first 6 months. Then came all these other copies made from other people. That was a trip and a half.

Now the narcissist knows how to spot characteristics that he desired  to employ.

  People with talent or skill, personality charge . People who are distinct personalities. Ones that he can pick up mannerisms and styles from and use to benefit from. Those that have something he hasn't got.

It would be the usual that once a personality was employed soon enough he would be talking garbage about them in an entirely insidious way so as to not make it look like he was jealous or put off but the fact that they were not completely playing into him. 

Because I was not married to the narcissist and did not want to be married it afforded me the space to be able to see things. the narcissist was not the entirety of my world nor was he my book of love. Although I do say I was manipulated into focusing on the Narc as a means for love. I tired of it.

It got to the point where ignoring and silencing was just a tool he used automatically to get in and out of situations day in and day out. to avoid the ultimate truth that he didn't love, couldn't love and we will not be discussing it.

AH Yes, I was a problematic GF. I did not rest at the face of this unspoken truth. Sure i went through the whole of the reason why the narcissist didn't love was because I was not lovable...I was treated in an unlovable and unacceptable manner. but how long does this  go on before I ask...so what are you doing here? I mean if I am unlovable and this is true - why stick around AT ALL? finally I asked my self this question and the answer was...I am not sticking around to hear his answer...I knew my own.

I mean  I can be unlovable and know this for myself. I don't need a narcissist to tell me as well. Why there is plenty of unlovable me to whisper the story in my own ear. I need not employ the narcissist for a secondary experience.

In any case...the narc I knew turned into all kinds of people. Every person encountered was subject to be picked apart and used for parts...not just a woman. Once I figured that out I could then become belittled and insecure over every one that he spoke to and did! 

the story was always the same. A first time conversation with any one meant that the person could possibly be wonderful and genius. Don't forget it takes a genius to spot a genius. 

By the second or third...thing became complicated an sour. It was no longer a wonder to me how some of his so called friends responded to me. the ones that stuck around were positioned in the same way I was positioned so there was all this tension.

here is how to create havoc with a narc with out doing anything at all just by being alive. When some one the narc praises gave me more attention than the narc that is a real zinger. Silent treatment is prepared and in order. Discard is on its way.

So, asides from being supply for a narcissist and losing my sense of self..I was still able to be a sleuth. This is because it is a natural skill of mine and despite the temporary disfunctional ego self I was still operating naturally even if I was available to commend myself for it.

i was as important as the next person . I was the gas station attendant or the bank teller...I was all the other people the narc contacted with one difference...I had sex with the narc. Everything else was the same as for as importance goes. Although I was also there fore the main mind beating. None the less a tool.

Now realizing one is being used as a toll by another doesn't my truth. It merely tells the other persons truth as to what they are available for. The other person has no depth but rather width..lots of people but only on one level. I on the other had have many levels ...a lot of depth. i can choose to expand on any level of depth. I can not ask the narcissist to become deep . It isn't possible. Narcissist just go wide on one single level.

Point is...if you have depth and ya hook up with a narcissist who is there picking up symbols of appearing to have depth at some point there is at least one angry human. The narcissist..angry at the one with depth / heigth since he/she can not actually self realize that experience . then the person with depth engages with a person who has only one level  and ignores all the other levels..all of the depth. The supply unit (individual) stop growing and exploring deep and tall and remains with a narcissist on one level screaming I need more...why can't you give me more.

What also comes into play is the the person with deph grant the person unilateral with  depth so that when a new person comes along for the narc it is seen as something very important...because for the individual with depth that is the way it would be experienced. for the narc it is just the same as any one anything. One level and not with any more meaning than some one to pick and read  obtain elements in order to enhance the illusion and to contribute to the attention hole.

What is horrific and disturbing is bing empathic and sensing this single layer sort of reality and trying to fit into it in order to nourish. It is like being an ocean or a lake and asking a puddle to understand and relate. Puddles dry up fast.

Conversion with a narcissist is like being an ocean and trying to relate to a puddle that is simply an illusion of water or simply a fraction of a mirror of the ocean.

The puddle gives the silent treatment when it is caught in the act of pretending to be a puddle before an ocean.

eyes

[Cornfield]

I have been wanting for some time to reply about the silent treatment the family is receiving from DIL for over a year now.  I presume she thinks this power treatment of us by her is a "moving on" action by her, but in actuality it is nothing more than stuffing her issues, grieving her loss of a win, and sulking in a sneaky manner.

The rest of the family notices that she is not returning in a warm way to the family circle.  We only hear from her or see her when she visits for holiday family dinners.
She has no conversation with Darling Daughter, her SIL, because she wants her to be the target of her anger, when, actually, DIL should be targeting me, the Mother Superior of the family.  I would be willing to acknowledge to her that I am the source of decisions she did not like when we made family business changes and closed the business.  She found another job, and we didn't consider that we had damaged her.

DIL was barely civil for a long time to me, to the point of rudeness, mumbling around the house whenever she visited.  It was obvious that nothing pleased Her Highness.
She has warmed some when she needs to converse with me, but never calls, doing the classic "communicate through my son" act, leaving him in a triangle.

Son is friendly to me and admits then he has been treated fairly in the financial matters, and he has admitted that he can't deal with his wife.  His policy is to not talk about it, so that means she in unresponsibe to any reasoning conversation.

It has split the family circle to the point that the grandchildren notice the loss of companship of their favorite aunt, and they are learning to accept the absence.
She is losing favor big time, and I am ready to address the issue directly with her.

I don't expect to get any admission of issues from her, but feel obligated to let her know that I don't tolerate abusive silence tactics in my home as I did with Supreme Father when he was alive.  She needs to know that the rules of living have drastically changed, and she needs to know just how they have changed.  I feel I need to let her know, in fairness to the rest of the family.  She is in a ten-on-one situation, if you count everyone, and that isn't a good balance for her.   

When you realize that you can't win, you change your choices, if you want things to get better.  I see two choices for DIL, shape up or ship out, and she sees one choice:  sulk and be silent until her problems die a natural death.

It was only a year ago that we realized the seriousness of her control personality, and her compulsions, which can be turned into a healthier action if she chooses.
The narcissistic behaviors are beginning to show now, as I never focused on that in the past.  A former victim like me is going to notice narcissistic behavior everywhere in the future, and we must control our tendency to label hastily in our relationships.

The behavior that I dislike the most is that I now realize that DIL never says she is sorry.  She is never wrong in an issue, and she doesn't let go.  This keeps Dear Son in turmoil trying to justify his thoughts with his wife's suspicions.  She has many.
Son's questions indicate that she is feeding him with suspicions of him being cheated by the decisions of the rest of the family.  We include him in the decision process, but he always comes back later with specific questions, issues raised by her.  What about this, what about that........We answer fairly and reasonably.  There is still money to be divided, but not at this time in this economy.  There is a mortgage to be paid, and a possible property sale next year or so.

I can prove on paper with plenty of evidence that everyone has been treated fairly and as equitably as possible for the time being.  I can verify that I made the important decisions that adversely affected her job security.  I had only one position needed for my business and I chose my daughter.  I had decided that DIL was too compulsive and controlling to continue to manage my personal bookkeeping needs.

She has cut herself out of the loop and doesn't know my personal or the family business details now, and that is driving her crazy, I am sure.  I am sorry about that.
After living with control for so long, I will choose freedom and risk before control every time.  It is who I will be as a person the rest of my life.  DIL would like very much to be more involved in my personal care, on the assumption that I am going to need her involvement soon, due to declining health with age.  I continue to get better and more independent, and I can't stand demeaning attitude towards my needs as I age.  Daughter, on the other hand, is available daily and will only offer help when I ask for it.  She is the wise one.  Son does nothing for me at all.  He is becoming his father over and over. Other son is available if it is an emergency, but it had better be important and serious.   What a picture!

It is logical.  It is fair.  That's the way it is.  I need to tell DIL that fact so she can choose to end her inner turmoil that is hidden in silence.  Darling Daughter says DIL will remove herself from the family circle.  I reply that she has already achieved that.

Silence kills relationships.  Familial relationship has little to do with it in my book anymore.

Am I a "family destroyer" or a realist?   This keeping peace for the sake of the family produces miserable family get-togethers.  I have done 50 years of that.

No more!

Cornfield

[Doveflyte]

Oh Corn, I am sorry you are dealing with this. I would stop it NOW before it gets any more rooted in accepted behavior, but do so with great grace. Speak to her politely but firmly. Never exclude her from invites or conversations, if she chooses to walk away or ignore someone it will reflect on her not on the other I am sorry you son is not more firm with her. He should demand and expect respect of his mother, and likewise of his wife. The N never defended me or required respect of me. He let his father talk to me as he chose and allowed the children to disrespect me without correction. That has ended in this house. I refuse to accept it.

Please don't delay and when it is done, enjoy yourself to the hilt. Kick off your shoes and love life. You will be a terrific example to everyone else, particularly your grandchildren who are watching this drama.

[Cornfield]

Honey, Daughter was just here and reported that Brother didn't do a job he promised his brother he would do when he was off work.  Now his new job starts and he can't do it, so we will have to hire it done.  DIL won't know this.  So unnecessary money will be spent for something he could have done for the good of the cause.

Daughter mentioned that she saw her SIL five times last year, and had few words pass between them.  It has been a year since she marched around the office in a huff, leaving Daughter to walk out for the afternoon to avoid a confrontation.  Daughter  said she didn't want to have a birthday event for the children, which is usually a one party deal for the five, and I agreed that was probably best. 

I would not hesitate to let Son and DIL know that the usual family event is not being planned because it is not comfortable for everyone to attend.  That will set them off, I am sure.  I can explain one more time to Son what the minimum standards are for family relations in my home, and if they choose other ones, that is their business, so long as it doesn't invade my environment.  I don't see that as anything but leading to DIL not coming around anymore.  It wouldn't stop Son, however, if he chooses to work in the shop that is available for him.  He won't break association.

But he will claim that I caused him problems with his wife, and I have to decide if I wish to go through that childish projection again after all this time.  He blamed me for trying to break up a relationship when he was 19, and in the end, he ended it.

The funny thing is that I am now friends and neighbors with the old girlfriend and I think he doesn't know that.  We have lots of laughs in the friendship, and Daughter is part of the warmth and fun as well.  Good friendships last.

I will take it day by day and see how it goes, but am ready for the inevitable.  Gee, I sort of hate having the upperhand at times, and watching the unprepared walk into a relationship fiasco.  I would much rather teach and advise to avoid such problems.

But I know you can't teach anyone who doesn't see himself as a student.

Cornfield

[Cornfield]

Honey, another point is that DIL sincerely thinks she is being respectful by being silent when in the family presence.  And she thinks it is my fault for not calling her if I don't hear from her often.  She wants me to be needy so she can be the benevolent caregiver, but I am not at all in need from a controlling person.

When a person decides another person is the fault and cause of their misery, there is little you can say or do to change that view.  In the first place, I am sure that DIL's denial that there is a problem is justification for her silence.  She certainly wouldn't want to hear my version of her issues or she would have asked. 

The whole thing comes down to not knowing the facts of the matter, wanting to be in control of the books for financial reasons, and believing that her husband is being cheated by his brother and sister who secretly gang up on him.  That has never happened in this close family, and I wouldn't allow it to happen.
The girl must be projecting her past family experiences upon our family.  She told me herself her father was not fair to the family so she projects this suspicion on to us.

I raised three children to love and protect each other, and the results have been very gratifying in these difficult times.  I don't think anyone can take that away.
They have always worked with each other since childhood, and this is the first time they have been physically separated much in business or in their personal lives. 

I am ready to just let it happen so they can live out the second half of their lives to their personal choices.  The old days are gone on the farm.

Cornfield