Importance of Indifference by Annie Murphy Paul

[CZBZ]

Importance of indifference

By: Annie Murphy Paul

Do you feel hostile towards your ex-spouse? Or friendly? In terms of your own well-being, it may not matter. What's important is that you're no longer preoccupied with him or her.

That's the finding of Carol Masheter, Ph.D, of the University of Utah, who has made a career out of studying relationships between divorced spouses. In her most recent study, Masheter sought to discover the difference between healthy and unhealthy post-divorce relationships, and found that preoccupation was the key. She gave participants a questionnaire that measured, first, their feelings of hostility toward their ex-spouse, and second, their level of preoccupation, or how much they still thought about their former partner. She also assessed the individuals' overall psychological well-being.
 
Not surprisingly, people who had high levels of both hostility and preoccupation weren't doing too well--but neither were those who felt friendly toward their former spouse and were still emotionally involved with him or her. They were often dependent on their exes, and sometimes harbored unrealistic fantasies of reconciliation. People with low hostility and low preoccupation enjoyed the greatest well-being, but those with high hostility and low involvement weren't far behind.

Masheter says that these hostile but uninvolved exes may actually use their anger adaptively, to invigorate themselves and ward off a potentially paralyzing depression. "Mid-range anger may help people, particularly women, differentiate from the spouse and get on with their lives," says Masheter. "They turn their anger outward in constructive ways."
 

Originally published by Psychology Today:Sep/Oct 97

[Phoenixxx]

beautiful......now the question is, how does one get to that point?

[Cornfield]

Phoenix, the story goes that someone asked John Wayne how he did that famous walk of his.   He said "it is special, but I will show you.  You put one foot out in front and then you put the other foot out in front.  And you keep going."  If it worked for John Wayne, it should work for the rest of us.

Cornfield

[Phoenixxx]

Love it!!

Yes thats exactly the philosophy I've had all this time, and while I'm miles ahead of where I was 3 years ago, it seems bloody well time already that I dont think about EVERYTHING in terms of him.  And furthermore, I get pissed off on a regular basis that "getting over" a N/S seems like such a bloody long process compared to getting over a regular guy, when it should be the other way around.  It would be nice to forget the azzholes sooner, faster, more effortlessly.

I'm over the grief and the resentment and the longing, but my brain still seems to be somehow trauma bonded.

I cant go anywhere or do anything and not be reminded of him, or what he did.

And that somehow seems to be tethered still...while I long to be free already!!!!

yanno?

[Cornfield]

Yeah, I know how it is.   When I think about him, it makes me think I really have obsessive compulsive disorder.  Last winter I knitted a very difficult afghan which I ripped out three times and even my expert advisors messed up the pattern, so that struggle took more than a month before I got on the right pattern and skills and finished the afghan in March.

I think it was a good project for concentrating on another problem and staying at it until I learned to clear my mind of the past problems.  To succeed at that project and have my granddaughters be impressed was the greatest thing to me in many years!  I succeeded at something else, instead of thinking how I was so miserable in the past.

I can't run anymore, I can't ride my special recumbant bike, and I don't do many things I used to enjoy, but I actually succeeded at retooling my knitting skills.   It was difficult, and the pattern instructions listed it as "easy."

You have to choose at least one thing you can do well, and then do it, because it pleases you.

Cornfield

[CZBZ]

"People with low hostility and low preoccupation enjoyed the greatest well-being, but those with high hostility and low involvement weren't far behind." ~Excerpted from article

Isn't that interesting??? I wondered about the connection myself, ever since discoverying how 'anger' warded off overwelming feels of depression or powerlessness. Learning how to manage anger can be an uphill battle for a lot of people, though. What was curious to me about this research is that 'hostility' does not necessarily mean we're still attached to the X. It can be protective and useful. ha! Yea! Okay now! I shout hooray because a lot of victims of Ns have a high degree of hostility when they are forced to engage with or discuss their x's and yet, they are pretty darn happy in their lives and rarely think about the X. The key to restoring self-esteem and well-being then is LOW INVOLVMENT.

Also, and I found this very very interesting since public opinion is so misguided about relationships post-marriage: Those who were the least hostile and still involved with their exes were 'dependent' or (and I'm reading INTO the results) Dysfunctional. So while society applauds people who say their Exes are their best friends, my gut feeling is that many of those people are repressing their hostility that could in fact, save them from emotional abuse (either by themselves or their X!)

Hugs,
CZ

[Phoenixxx]

ha!

I have one foot in each of those opposites.

I AM still if not best, VERY good friends with my non-N exhusband whom I speak to every 2nd day -- and still have murder fanatasies for my very disordered exN/S whom I dont speak with at all.

But then my marriage dissolved because two people who fell in love in highschool were almost completely different people who were affectionate with each other by their mid 30's.  The split was amicable and mutual.  And we co-parent our only child so our sense of family, although we live apart from one another, has remained intact.  Theres always, and continues to be mutual good will and good faith between us.  We both want each other to be fulfilled and satisfied in our lives.

The opposite is true with my exN/S, who ALWAYS needed to be at the top of the food chain, who paid lipservice to but never wanted to be part of a team/family, and who always seemed to have an undercurrent of resentment and badfaith. 

[CZBZ]

Interesting point, Phoenix! I suppose there are mutually-agreeable divorces such as you've written about. I must confess that in my life circle, no one had an amicable divorce. the women who've become my friends were all Ambushed (as I like to call how my marriage ended).

So in reflection of your first marriage, would you say that you both have low involvement; in other words: are not preoccupied with thoughts about your X or fantasizes of reconciliation? Did you ever consider reconciliation??

This is curious to me because once in a while, people describe their divorce the way you have and I always ask myself 'why' they couldn't keep the marriage together and work on loving one another's change. I'm a fuddy-duddy though and maybe my "AGE" shows but if I had a decent relationship with my husband and he was respectful of me as his partner, I'd never end the marriage for the sake of the child. My goal would be to work on the relationship and myself so I could GROW to love my partner and keep the family together. I don't quite understand why people do not make that decision, so if you feel like talking ot me, I'd love to hear your comments.


Hugs,
CZ

[Phoenixxx]

The one thing I never mind talking about is my marriage, or my exhusband.  He was just over here a couple weeks ago doing a bit of handyman stuff in my condo for me.  Its at times like that I remind him he's "the best man a woman could hope to divorce from".

On the "bond" side of the equation,   I think our young age and that we genuinely loved each other helped to create a sense of "knowing" that lasts a lifetime, if that makes sense.  We grew up together really, in the sense that we entered into and became adults together.  I know when I see him even now, 11 years after our split, I still get happy and am affectionate with him with that sense of "knowing" and familiarity.  Like seeing your closest sibling, or long time friend.

On the "breakdown" side of the equation, in our maturing, we grew further and further apart as individuals.  I'm an artist, he's a jock.  I thrive in chaos and improvisation, he is organized and needs structure. I'm a liberal, he's conservative.  I have a few university degrees, he has one year of college.  I'm an extroverted leader who values her solitude, he's an introverted follower who needs to be around people (interesting combinations there, eh?).  And in the end he was spending a lot of time outside of the house pursuing his interests and fulfilling his needs with my blessings, I was at home with our baby.  All of that coupled with a few earlier decisions he had made that negatively impacted the physical intimacy in our relationship and we ended up being people, who while we loved one another genuinely, we were no longer attracted to one another romantically.

He was always great at everything else a man could give as a husband, including emotional support, intimacy and affection. But romantically, the relationship was over. 

And really, the two of us to this day both have this sense, that it was a relationship that came to its own natural ending.  Neither of us "ended it" through a singular decision or behaviour.  There was sadness, a lot of it, frustration that looked a lot like anger because we each were young enough we wanted "more". 

We went to marriage therapy for a year trying to rekindle what was lost.  Neither of us wanted to breakup the family, especially for our son's sake.  We each had our own guilt over that, that we worked through.  I remember the therapist telling us he'd never had a couple split up who loved each other as much as we did.

But as hard as we worked honestly to save it, it was already done.

Yes we tried to reconcile ONCE after the separation, one dinner/movie date, one time we slept together, but we sadly admitted it wasnt going to work.  After that there were no fantasies of reconciliation.

I HAVE felt a couple times when taking my son to his dad's house on Christmas morning (I always have him on Christmas Eve), that I wanted my INTACT family back, that I wanted to take my shoes off and snuggle up to them both on the sofa with our eggnog, but that looks different to me than wanting my HUSBAND back.

Even now, as he has finally asked a woman to move in with him and share his life (I suspect theyre getting engaged soon), I adore her, think she is wonderful, especially suitable for him (and my son) and am so glad he has found someone he loves as much as he used to love me (he has said in the last few years he didnt feel that way about any of his gf's since our split).

Neither of us feels abandoned by the other, both of us worked hard to save it, and it was a mutual decision to split, with mutual respect and a mutual LIFE commitment to work together to give our son the best life he can have.  Those are all the ingredients that continue to make such a good relationship between us after all this time.

Plus, he isnt disordered!!!

[Phoenixxx]

sorry, I know that was long but I just recalled something to add

we had a trial separation at the advice of our therapist, because we werent able to rekindle anything after 9 months of work

when we returned to his office after the 3 months he asked us if we still wanted to work on the marriage or if we wanted to stay apart
and we both agreed we wanted to WANT to work, because that seemed like the right thing to do, but really there wasnt any desire in our hearts for each other

that we had a sense of duty and conscience
but no desire anymore

and that according to our therapist, wasnt ever going to be enough to recapture what we once had

we could decide to stay together out of obligation and continue to be unhappy
or we could agree to split and maybe find happiness somewhere else

I think that more directly answers your question.

[CZBZ]

Dear Phoenix,

You might be the first person I've ever talked to, who ended a marriage amicably. Sounds like you've analyzed the relationship inside-out and worked through your guilt or shame or whatever emotions a person has when they choose to end a marriage that is NOT abusive, NOT disrespectful, yet ultimately, not enough. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around it but my beliefs about 'eternal marriage' are embedded so deep in my psyche that I'd never divorce a partner unless I had to. Not just for the sake of the kids, but also for the sake of my spiritual commitments. Not everyone has the same religious upbringing as myself and it took a long time for me to unravel the profundity of those beliefs and how they worked to SAVE a good-enough marriage OR trap people in abusive, disrespectful marriages. Some of my relatives found themselves in 'unhappy' marriages but as the years went on, they came to love their partner so deeply and intimately and were grateful for the guiding principles that kept them married long enough to reap the harvest of a long, long union and intact family.

I am aware that many people view marriage differently and might be more inclined to leave a relationship behind if they are unhappy. Those belief systems we accept as gospel truth when we're children are for the most part, Unconscious. Even if we are not practicing a religion faithfully, those 'beliefs' are there, guiding our choices and motivating us to make decisions based on what we were taught to be right-or-wrong.

So for me, I'd never end a marriage just because I was unhappy.  The unhappy marriage would serve as a crucible of sorts. Unfortunately, some of us get stuck with disordered people who cannot change, cannot love, cannot bond, cannot recirocate the same respect and dignity we offer them. Ending a marriage is very difficult for people who felt as if they were reneging on sacred vows they made to God.

We you raised in a religious environment? I don't know but it might be easier for people to seek a new partner if they do not feel an obligation to remain in the marriage because of their religious beliefs.

Hugs,
CZ

[Phoenixxx]

No my childhood environment was not religious.  I have a devout catholic mother, my dad was an agnostic Lutheran and I was baptized Anglican with no one taking me to church.  But I am and always have been spiritual.  That notwithstanding, my exH is Catholic, but came from a broken marriage, but his parents divorced when he was 4 -- whereas my parents were still together when my father died 11 years ago.  I suffered a lot of guilt, I felt incredibly selfish, and I think my exH did too, although because of his childhood experiences it may have been easier for him to let go.  The timing and our ages had a lot to do with it.  In early and mid 30's the desire for romance was bigger than it seemed to have been in our 20's.  I think if the same thing had happened in our 50's the outcome might have been different.  If we had met later than at the end of highschool things would likely have been different.  But I can tell you I went to therapy alone to deal with my guilt over being selfish enough to break up my sons family so that I could be happy.  It wasnt easy, and as I said, that still creeps up on me (and my exH) every once in awhile.  The sense that we're still a family, that we all still love one another helps alleviate most of that guilt.

I dont mean to have made it sound like a walk in the park.  I can talk about it with affection and love in my heart now, but although it was amicable and mutual, it was also very painful at the time.

I also have a tendency to stay too long and give more of an effort than I should.  Thats true of my marriage, its true of my relationship with my exN/S.  I also did and continue to struggle with what a commitment means, what do vows mean, what is a promise exactly?  I thought I knew when I said them to both my exH and my exN/S, I certainly know what it means with my son, but it feels like romantically thats some kind of fairytale ideal that doesnt stand up to reality very well.  Thats not what I want to come to believe, but its what I often hear on support forums.  So in a way the breakdown of both those relationships feels like a loss of innocence for me.

And in the end, if my exH had said he did have enough desire to continue working, I likely would have matched him in it.  I think deep down I knew, if his heart wasnt in it, I wasnt going to keep sacrificing myself to keep trying.  It had to be mutual.  That there was so much RELIEF from the oppressive sadness once we decided, told me my letting go WITH him was probably the best decision.

Even then, it took 18 months of grieving before I was ready to date someone again.  And that wasnt a picnic either.

And I have moments since then of thinking "if I couldnt make it work FOREVER with such a nice guy, what hope do I have of ever making it through FOREVER with anyone?"

...in the end though, in some beautifully odd way, we have been able to make something good and loving work.

(shrugging shoulders)

[CZBZ]

"...in the end though, in some beautifully odd way, we have been able to make something good and loving work."~Phoenixxx

Kudos to you, Phoenixxx...you've obviously worked through your feelings and come to a place of peace with yourself. I do hear a tinge of sadness that your x-husband lacked the desire to continue working on the relationship because you would have poured your heart into it had he been interested. Because he wasn't, I'm guessing you've had to deal with that hideous monster of rejection and all the psychological dynamics human beings suffer when they're refused the love they HOPE to create/receive.

I hope you don't mind me being so personal but your story is rather intriguing since my job the past many years has been helping people dig themselves OUT of abusive relationships. And then, to STAY OUT. Here you are, writing about a relationship that didn't work out the way you both had hoped and you've managed to maintain a healthy relationship with each other. Even a 'loving', platonic relationship.

Perhaps the difference is that your X was not intent on Destroying, Punishing, Reducing you to an object? If, even during your divorce, each of you maintained responsibility for your own behavior without projecting it onto the other OR using proxies to increase the shame and humiliation rejected partners feel, then I can imagine the possibilities of remaining good friends even after marriage.

As you wrote, the difference is in the pathology. Disordered people intensify a partner's natural feelings of shame and regret because they project responsibility onto others. It's so difficult to work through it if we don't know about 'disorders' and assume our partner is facing, feeling and grieving the same things as ourselves. The horror of being objectified and discarded complicates our healing and yet, most people do not realize they were in a pathological relationship. That means they keep trying to process thier loss/grief as if they'd been with a 'normal' person. Add to that challenge, the challenge of Forgiving Their Partner (and themselves) and we have the perfect set-up for people to become trapped in complicated grief and self-blame.

Hugs,
CZ

[Phoenixxx]

There is a tinge of sadness, correction, there WAS sadness, but I dont think I felt rejected.  The story is always more complex than it appears, there is so much backstory that I wont go into, but that strong need for balance in me, yeah, that was in place my whole life including my marriage.  So I made sure, either consciously or subconsciously to keep the unravelling and fading of the marriage balanced.  I dont know if that makes sense or not, from the outside.  But the process was slow and genuine, so as it faded for him, it faded for me too through my own choices and perspectives.  Maybe its just a matter of physics? 

The unravelling of the NrelatioNship was abrupt, dizzying, and then followed up with incredible honeymoon periods only to cycle through it again and again right?  thats very unbalancing, destabilizing, crazy-making not just to the relationship, but to our own sense of gravity.  That wasnt my experience in my marriage, the unravelling there was ever so slow and genuine, sort of like the erosion of a beautiful beach.

And youre oh so right.  While painful and full of grief and even guilt, it is NOTHING like the recovery from a Nrelationship, which seems so much bigger, and devestating and knotted up impossibly.

I guess what I am trying to say is, my normal marriage eroded for both of us, at much the same speed, with a mutual sense of power and powerlessness, but with empathy and respect intact.  The NrelatioNship was undone by HIS disorder, HIS choices, HIS destabilizing, HIS lack of respect, HIS need for power and dominance, and HIS abuse.


Its the difference between working together to tear down a crumbling house, or washing dishes in the kitchen while the tornado rips it off its foundations and drops it 5 miles away.

[CZBZ]

I recalled an article about modern marriages that suggested the first marriage is based on Idealism and the second marriage is based on Companionship. I got to thinking about this on my drive home this weekend and how it might be applied to the N-relationship.

Surely anyone getting married for the first time will be highly influenced by the cultural programming that idealizes marriage and love and parenting. It's not just the narcissist that has idealistic notions about what it means to 'love' and 'be loved'. We all do. Eventually however, infatuation fades and idealism gives way to realism. Love is not about 'feeling good' all the time. And it's not about finding a surrogate parent to meet needs that were not met as children. Perhaps breaking through our idealism is the foundation to maturation?

In a normal relationship such as you've described, Phoenixxx, once the idealism give sway to reality, two people could admit to themselves and their partner that the relationship is not what they hoped or wanted it to be because they've changed. They've grown up. They believe themselves to be incompatible with a partner they had viewed as 'perfect'. Each person spends time ruminating on themselves, gaining insight into why they viewed the relationship as incompatible and then making the hard choice to leave the relationship without doing UNNECESSARY harm to a partner they had loved.

I can imagine this scenario occurring frequently enough if neither partner has a pathological disorder. Maybe it also explains why some ex's pay additional support to their children and yield to the best interests of the child in custody situations, instead of asking the judge to cut the child in half with a sword? If two people take full responsibility for themselves without BLAMING, SHAMING, and intentionally destroying a former partner, there would be LOW HOSTILITY and safe INVOLVEMENT.

The second time around, each of the partners might be looking for companionship as this article suggested because they had grown out of their idealism and immature expectations.

What I did NOT like about the article I'm referring to is that is makes people like myself feel like we failed as 'companions'. When in fact, we may have moved out of our idealism and into a perception of our relationship as 'companions' without even recognizing our psychological growth. The pathological AMBUSH throws us backwards and confuses us because as all pathologicals do, WE are being accused of THEIR crimes.

When I read articles about marriage-and-divorce, I force myself to consider the distinct differences between normal and pathological relationships.

I loved your last sentence: "It's the difference between working together to tear down a crumbling house, or washing dishes in the kitchen while the tornado rips it off its foundations and drops it 5 miles away."


Hugs,
CZ