Facebook "betrayal"

[gardengirl]

My childhood best friend emailed me this morning to let me know that she has befriended my ex H on Facebook. She has historically been very selfish... sort of a free spirit (her parents are hippies). She's fun, which is why we were such close friends in high school. But she doesn't really think deeply about things like this. I'm sure she doesn't understand the depth of my suffering with H. To her, she just moves on to the next BF, and that's that. I'm sure she thinks I should be the same way.

I feel betrayed by this, even though I recognize she is entitled to be friends with whoever she wants. She was MY childhood friend, not his (although they did know one another casually). It just bothers me that she would feel such a strong need to be his friend that she would put me in this uncomfortable situation.

Now I feel like I need to unfriend her on Facebook because he will now be able to see whatever we write to one another.

I'm sure this sounds terribly petty, but I just felt like venting this somewhere. I am trying to let it go, but it bothers me. It actually brings back my anger at N, because he seems to be able to get away with everything without much loss. He was so charming and fun that a few people are still muddled enough to want to be his friend, despite his actions. Am I in the wrong for feeling that this is a breach of loyalty, or at least a tad inconsiderate?

[CZBZ]

Are you in the wrong for feeling that this is a breach of loyalty or at least a tad inconsiderate???

Not in my worldview. it's an interesting situation though and one that frequently arises when a relationship between two people ends. Your friend may be a free spirit but I'll bet if the tables were turned, she'd have a different perspective. In our current reality where folks are prone to proving how 'saintly' they are by not judging someone by their actions but seeing to the core of their widdle spiritual goodness, they abdicate themselves from the HARD WORK of making a choice. It's much easier to be a shitty friend to two people than it is to PICK which friend deserves support and continued loyalty.

Those shitty friends are the ones who suggest THEY didn't have a problem with the person who just took a bite out of your Azz so the problem must be YOU. I don't think we're conscious of what their continued relationship with an azz-biter means, but we know in our guts that we're being blamed. And that THEY are more special than 'we' (whether its because THEY haven't had a similar problem OR because they are not judgmental like we are...gee, aren't they SPECIAL?!!)

I'd cross her off my friendship list and pick someone with enough guts and intelligence to empathize with the victim and stop making excuses for the victimizer. Bystanders and fence-sitters are on my shitelist right now. They pretend they're holy and righteous but in my opinion, they're only perpetuating evil by re-victimizing the victim. It's high-time we gave MORE understanding to the victim than we do to abusers and betrayers. I don't care very much about HOW the abuser feels or WHY he-or-she did what they did, what I care about is the person who needs our support and empathy because THEY deserve it.

I'm in a lousy mood this morning since I've been sick with the flu and can barely string ten words in a coherent sentence. So take my opinion with a couple of aspirin and get plenty of bedrest if it makes ya feverish.

LOL

Hugs,
CZBZ

[Proud2B]

I whole heartedly second everything CZ wrote, bad mood or not. :-)

Your friend made a choice.  At the very least she choose herself over you.  At the worst, she choose your ex over you. 

The ugly truth.  But just because we (or they) don't like it, doesn't make it any less true.

Don't put yourself through that kind of torture.  Who needs friends like that?

Actions speak louder than words.

Proud   

[eyes_up]

OOOOOOOH Garden..do I ever know about this one. Like CZ says above and ther is more where that comes from.

I am considering telling you my story. But ya know waht it is just to much to write out. all I can say is that a friend of mine was confronted by me in terms of this exact thing. It turned out good because I was assured that her friendship w/ me was a true friendship and the other was just keeping peace and chatting time away.

This proved ot be so since I am still good friends w/ friend and the jerk who took a bite out of my AZZ is long gone from both of our lives.As she put it , her connection to him had no depth...but what floored me is that no one got in his face about it...they just smiled and let it pass.

I realized in the future much of What CZ said which is , if it happened to her I assure you she wouldn't want me being chummy with the perpetrator...AND I WOULDN'T BE. Thing is, some people never gorw up and every one else grows up at different times.

So right now your friend is still entertaining herself. FINE. You on the other hand are pressed with  big time life lessons. That only happens when you actually put yourself out there.  Sounds like your friend doesn't know where she is to even put herself out there...so, see her lack of depth and consider her behavior the inability to comprehend choice through insight. That is finally what I did w/ my friend and today she still is struggling with stuff I finally got over back in the day.

I wouldn't be friends with any one that is friends with any XNbf. NO WAY! That is where I am at. Any one who would want to invest in the superficial distraction the narc provides is not where I am at.

What was once an angry choice is now an intelligent choice. I figured out exactly why I wouldn't be rubbing elbows with any narcs friends.

(((hugs)))

eyes

[honeybearII]

Gardengirl, a couple of things come to mind.  First, obviously this is one immature, idiotic woman who probably thinks it is "cool" to collect many friends on Facebook.  Stupid.  My children and I are on their to exchange pictures, and I have a few friends, but when Ex's name came up as "someone you know", I just ignored it.  That is what your friend should have done!!

I'm with CZ on this even if she DOES have the flu.  Who needs "friends" like this????  When I went through my divorce it sure whittled away at my list of what I call friends.  Many chose to remain friends with the man who dumped me, had affairs, was fired from his job for his sexual indiscretions, and etc. etc.  WHY they chose to remain friends is sorta crazy to me, since they all claim to be Good Christian People, but that is their business.  I just chose NOT to be friends because, as CZ says, it makes me feel victimized all over again.  I'm cordial when I see them but I certainly would never again count them as Friends.

You will find, as you move forward, that there are a lOT of terrific people out there to make a whole new circle of friends with.  Who needs someone who thinks it is "cool" to do something like this to you???
Honey

[Julia]

gardengal,

Here is my take on this. She is being (at best) completely naive and inconsiderate. At worst this is a petty betrayal for various (shallow, jealous, ???) reasons.

And yet....facebook is a very superficial medium. She may not have considered her choice before she hit "OK". If losing this "friendship" would be a loss (or hurtful) to you, I think you owe yourself and her the option of a do-over. I would write her a private email and let her know that you would NOT feel comfortable continuing to be on her friend list if ExNH is also her friend, and calmly explain why. She may not even understand the ramifications.... if she is a dim bulb.

 And from there your decision is clearer. If she refuses..... then she is no loss. If she agrees, but implies you are WAY too sensitive, then she is probably not wise enough to be your friend. If she falls over herself with an "OMG - I didn't think of that, I am sorry and I will take care of it NOW!!" then she is a friend worth keeping and you can tease her about it someday.

The most important thing is for you to make a decision from a sense of your own self-worth rather than betrayal or rejection.

Julia

[Cornfield]

CZ, you just described my SIL and you have never met her!   What talent you have with people!  Stay in bed with the flu and remember the canned peach juice over ice for sipping.  Then it's on to thin soup with veggies or maybe some chicken or beef bouillon.  You won't have to go to Weight Watchers this week, that's for sure.

Yes, when we put our heads together we come up with sensible thoughts to help each other take the baby steps to healthy choices.  I just unloaded on other DIL.  But I didn't mention names.  She is having a better attitude than we ever expected.  Time does help in these matters.  She has been dethrowned as the difficult one!

I am glad because I hope to be able to go to Alaska next year with that family.  Or maybe, the next year. 

Cornfield

[eyes_up]

"make a decision from a sense of your own self-worth rather than betrayal or rejection." ~ Julia

I agree with this. Her actions do not make you a victim ..they are her actions , her mindless, thoughtless, behavior ... her head making the moves in terms of herself and it says nothing about you ( your depth as a person). Losing friends like this is a gift that requires recognition.  When the narc goes so do things that attached and nurtured with in  that climate.

Peace,

eyes

[gardengirl]

I really appreciate your responses. Maybe I do need to see this as a gift, a refining of my life.

I forgot to mention that in the email, she said she was unhappy with the things he had done to me, but that she wanted to remember the good in him, and that she hoped I would one day be friends with him too.

I wrote her back a polite but strong note explaining that I could not be friends with him until he treated me with respect rather than selfishness, which, as I explained, has not yet happened. I also explained that I could not be friends with him while he still lacked remorse for his actions, given the numerous and lasting ways that my life had been changed as a result. I also explained to her that I felt unfomfortable being on her friends list, while he also was, because of the potential to see what one another is writing. I told her I am considering "unfriending" her on Facebook. I haven't heard back from her.

I use Facebook for clients, close friends, and family... I don't want any drama, or the pain of peering into his life. I know he has tons of pictures of himself with the GF too... It makes me feel creepy that she is now able to see these pictures, and that she doesn't seem to have any negative judgment against it. But that's her, not me.

I think I will give it one more day, and then unfriend her.

This is not the first time I have had to keep my distance from her. Every few years, she does something that I deem too selfish for my standards, and I take a few years away. I don't think she even notices. She is SO in her own world. We grew up in the same small town with some very similar experiences, which is why we bond, I think, but she has grown up into a completely different person than I have. I think her highest value is on having fun. Reminds me of exN in that way.

[Julia]

Gardengal,

Thanks for clarifying. It sounds like you are making your decision from strength. I had to do something like this a couple years ago and it was actually a relief to be free of the relationship. Best of luck today dealing with it.

Julia

[eyes_up]

"she said she was unhappy with the things he had done to me, but that she wanted to remember the good in him, "

Well, it looks like both she and the narcissist are on the same page dialing the same number..forget the bad remember the good and make the next move based on ignoring abusive behavior. That isn't such a new motto now is it? This is exactly how history repeats . Not learning but ignoring and making it all pretty and comfortable. Doesn't work for me. Truth is painful but it is also liberating.

Your friend lives in her own cage. It resembles the narcissists.

peace,

eyes

[CZBZ]

"make a decision from a sense of your own self-worth rather than betrayal or rejection."

Dear dear Julia! Always the voice of reason! One of the skills we develop during a healing process is greater self-awareness, learning to contain our emotions and choose to act, not REACT. It's so difficult in the beginning when we feel unheard by friends we need to validate our experience by empathizing with what we've been through. So yes, you are right about NOT reacting to feelings of betrayal and rejection. If we're still looking for someone to stand up for US instead of the 'abuser', we are (in a way) using the same divide-and-conquer methods the N uses to garner support for him-or-herself, further isolating the abused from support. It's a process, isn't it? We desperately need someone to hear us, feel us, recognize the injustice of the abuser's illegitimate blame---which is why forums like this exist: To support and validate the abused so they can move forward with their lives without continually seeking validation for what they've been through.

At some point, i was able to validate my own perceptions/experience without needing other people to stand up for me. At first though, anyone who maintained friendship with the 'abuser' FELT like a second betrayal though most times, they were unaware of how their choices made me feel. Until I could put my feelings into words though, they could not know they were making a choice. They were simply trying to maintain two friendships without thinking through the consequences for themselves if they expected the N to act differently with them than he-or-she had with me.

In my experience on forums, most of us begin writing about our lives with hesitation because we really aren't sure that we didn't merit being dumped, attacked, hurt, rejected...We still give the benefit of the doubt to the perpetrator wondering what we did wrong to cause them to hurt us. Sometimes it takes months (or years) before we finally release ourselves from self-blame by putting full responsibility where it lies---in the hands of the perpetrator.

I really like your direct honesty with your friend, Gardengirl. Rather than feeling 'victimized' by her straddled friendship, you told her how it made you feel and why you could not remain friends with someone who disrespected you and treated you badly. By doing that, you were standing up for yourself and allowing HER make a conscious choice based on greater awareness of how her relationship with your X impacted YOU. Now it's up to her to decide how she wants to handle an untenable position: continued friendship with someone who HURT her lifelong friend. If she can't quite bring herself to end her relationship with your X, then she'll probably have a Wake-up call of her own and THEN she'll understand. Serial abusers depend on people's willingness to forgive and forget, to let bygones be bygones and allow them to move on with their lives without taking FULL responsibility for their hurtful behavior. WE do NO ONE any favors when we let people off the hook for harming others. Not the abuser, not the victim, not anyone. In essence, we're condoning selfish behavior by not enforcing consequences.

I think about 'shunning' and how traditional cultures used this technique to halt anti-social behavior that harmed the community as a whole. It sounded so harsh and cruel when I first read about cultures that did not speak to the offender until the offender had conformed to standards of behavior protecting the greater community. So I was one of those 'holy schmolies' who assumed our modern society had transcended judgment and blame by offering our understanding and forgiveness to the perpetrator. I did NOT understand that the greater issue was the victim, the one who needed validation that a harm had been done and there would be consequences for selfish behavior. I also didn't understand how important it was for the rest of the community to feel SAFE in trusting one another because there were 'rules' that had to be followed in order to reap the benefits of social connection. We are social creatures which means alienation from the social structure is a 'stop gap' on selfish behavior. At this point in our culture though, all the Stop Gaps are erased and people are FREE to do whatever they choose which quite honestly creates a very UnSAFE and UNTRUSTWORTHY society. There is no justice if there are no consequences. It's every one out for themselves and don't trust anybody 'cuz if you do, you'll be hurt and folks will blame you for being Trusting. That's not freedom. That's prison.

We must enforce consequences but I don't think most good-hearted people are comfortable doing that. We tend to be 'understanding' and compassionate without realizing that supporting the abuser without consequences is denying compassion for the abused. I've had to seriously think about what kind of culture we're creating if we eradicate Consequences in the pretense of compassion and forgiveness. As you already know, I've been working through a tough situation with my nephew who NEEDS people to set limits for him since he's not very good at setting them for himself. The more black-and-white we are about determining right-from-wrong, the SAFER he seems to feel and the more he TRUSTS us and himself to limit thoughtless and hurtful behavior. I've always been a laissez-faire sort of woman but that was way back when I assumed everyone was regulated by those good ol' reliable emotions of shame and guilt. I'm still learning. 

God Bless Alka-Seltzer Colds Plus. I'm feelin' spunky today. 

"Well, it looks like both she and the narcissist are on the same page dialing the same number...forget the bad remember the good and make the next move based on ignoring abusive behavior. That isn't such a new motto now is it? This is exactly how history repeats . Not learning but ignoring and making it all pretty and comfortable. Doesn't work for me. Truth is painful but it is also liberating. Your friend lives in her own cage. It resembles the narcissists." ~Eyes_Up

Brava!


Hugs,
CZBZ

[Lapin]

Dear Gardengirl,

I had a very similar problem about a year ago.  I, too, have a BF from way back.  I have known her since I was 10 years old.  Like your friend, she is from my home town and is a lot of fun.  Last year, she befriended my N twice.  In my case I know it was not malicious at all, but as Julia put it so succinctly, I have come to the conclusion that she is a dim bulb.  Like your friend, mine talks the talk but really doesn't understand the suffering inflicted by being married to an N. 

You will have to decide if her behavior is just out of ignorance and a lack of an ability to comprehend something that she has not directly experienced.  If you can get past it, you can try to maintain the frienship as long as something like this does not happen again or be prepared to let it go if something like this happens again. 

My friend is not selfish, but as my therapist said, she is "slow."  Yes, I was so upset, I had to discuss it in therapy sessions.  Since the last backstabbing, there was another almost "backstabbing" and subsequently she has put her foot in her mouth several times, all N related and all totally ingnorant of what she is doing to me.  I have chosen to keep the friendship, but no longer tell her many things regarding N and my relationship with him   I feel as though I have to protect myself from her.  I have decided that friends of my enemy are my enemy.  However, sometimes there is a gray area, where the friend is not deliberately trying to sabatoge you, but just does it out of total ignorance.

Ironically, I posted about my own situation on the old WON board just around this time of year about a year ago.  Most replies were quite different from what you have been getting.  I was counciled to give my friend the benefit of the doubt.  You know your friend well and for a long time, Gardengirl, so I am sure you understand her true motivations.  The question here is do her actions hurt and is it worth it to put up with it.  It seems like what you said to her was a great way of handling it. 

[gardengirl]

Thanks, Lapin. I think her intentions are to keep her own circle of friends. She feels a tie to my ex, because he was fun, etc. They are very similar in many respects. So I think it was entirely selfish on her part. I think the ignorance plays in when considering the level of abuse I endured. I don't think she gets it. But if she doesn't get it, do I really want her friendship? I'm not sure... I feel betrayed that she doesn't understand why I wouldn't want to be friends with my ex.

She hasn't responded to my letter. I am sure she is too busy having fun. Her FB status talks about her being at a music festival.

I don't want to burn the bridge, but I feel like I need some time away from her. I think I am going to "unfriend" her, as petty as it sounds. I just need distance.

[Wren]

It is a betrayal.  In my case, my sister and BIL are (right wing R's) on the dole for being paramedics.  And several times, too.  Every pregnancy, my sister was off for at least 18 months, PAID.  Or, so she says.

BIL, being cross-trained to the fireside -- I didn't see any of their behavior as suspiscious until 2005 or so.  Their union benefits would boggle your mind.  I'm not saying anything about unions, but these people (BIL type) don't want more unions.  They want it for themselves, somehow, and I'll never catch that, lol.

My sister decided on her own to betray me at one of my worst times, and that was good for her, as it also met her husband's menu.

[eyes_up]

Garden Girl I was thinking some more about this. I looked back in my past and saw faces of friends who I felt betrayed me..actually out and out mean to be real about it. Ultimately I handled it two ways. One way is I stop being friends and the other way is I just applied new boundaries with old friends.
one woman who i was best friends with in grade school moved in about four houses down from me. this was an interesting event. I greeted her as she did me but really , we could babble on and on about what goes on for each of us in our lives but the true friend connection is gone. I figure friendship can end, they can change and sometimes or more rarely they grow and become richer.

so for my old friend down the street I still have fond memories and cruel ones as well and they are memories. Now she is more or less an acquaintance.

Some one I wave to and greet ask how she is doing ... just nice peaceful stuff but she doesn't get any where near the levels of trust I have with closer friends. I do not expect her or ask her for anything more than she is able to give. I see her for where she is at and that is not where I am at.

Seems to me you have grown out of this person and not all friendships remain the same or become richer w/ time/experience. Lost of friendships are for decades, some for years other for months. Seems like this is the way it works. 

There is an ad on the college radio station where a man says " you know you have a true friend because a true friend will suck the poison out after you have been bitten by a rattle snake".  That is a true friend and I figure ya might get one in a life time and if your lucky two.

 I don't expect that all the people I call friends will be able to help me when I am in a fix. I have experienced quite the opposite. I have received more validation and more kindness from strangers than people who I have called friends. I do have some good friends but they are all different. They all process in a different way.

I can understand creating some space from the person you are calling friend...but your friendship is based on something that existed in the past and both of you are maturing in different ways. Your mental / emotional paths are not aligned. Life has asked you to do some in depth work While your friend seems to be dancing on the frosting.

Maybe she is the kind of friend that can only be contacted when you are ready to dance and feast on the lighter side. Just thinking here because I did go through this predicament...but when I came out the other side I had grown sooo much that the old friend just appeared to be out to lunch and ordinary. I found that there are many people who do not have the emotional capacity to endure or tolerate the sufferings that are presented during a life time. Not their own or others.

No one is obligated to deal with my feelings , my state of mind nor my situation BUT when people choose to help out/support I am always aware that this is not the ordinary day to day or so it seems that way.

I know a few GF's that were basically useless when it came to me post narc. They didn't understand the abuse. All they knew was from their own limited experiences. For most people, I keep saying most, stepping out of their own comfort one is not a goal in fact the opposite. It just isn't on thier list of things to do.

Maybe your old friend is only a friend to have fun with and the serious stuff isn't shared. That is boundary. That is how I figured it.

eyes

[honeybearII]

Eyes, this was a very thoughtful post on friendship, and I totally agree with you.  When you have lived as long as I have, you realize that "friends" come and go.  Some friends meet a need at a specific time in your life.  Then they kind of drift away.  Other friends I might see only every few years, but we can pick up where we left off and simply enjoy each other.  Then there are friends that are what I call "good time buds".  They are fun to party with, have lunch, chat, but I know that if somethiing serious hit, they simply would not be there for me.

then there my True Blue Friends.  The ones that are like soulmates.  I KNOW that no matter what happens in my life they will be there.  I only have a couple of those, but they are treasures.  We have laughed together a LOT, but we have also cried together.  We know each other's weak spots and our strong spots.  We can say or do anything and they will not forsake us.  They might hold our feet to the fire if we are getting off track, they make me look inside at myself, but no matter what I find there, my friends will love me.  Period.  Those are usually friendships forged through the pain of each other's lives. 

I have also just let friendships go because in the fires of my life they haven't been there to even throw a single cup of water on the flames.  They just were/are not capable of that kind of selflessness, nor do they understand much about emotional pain and how it affects us.  I think the only way a friendship like that can turn into a True Blue Friend is if they have their own Dark Night of the Soul and do a whole lot of growing and maturing.  And that is fine.  If we have only ONE True Friend in our lives, as eyes said, we are incredibly lucky.  To have more than one means we are totally blessed.
Honey

[gardengirl]

Great feedback from both of you, thanks. I have been so blessed with so many very good friends over the years. Some don't last due to circumstance (moving away), but many of them have endured even distance. Last summer I caught up with two girlfriends from my childhood, both of whom were incredibly supportive of what I was going through.

This friend on FB that I refer to is one that I had already decided was just a fair weather friend... She is someone I know I can't count on. I go years without seeing her, because she often offends me in her selfishness, and I need time to get my bearings and such. But I try to enjoy her for what she is good at-- having fun. We have a bond because we grew up in the same small town together. So I still value that... And most of the time, I'm capable of putting her in a box and enjoying her for who she is. But this whole thing of befriending my exN seems to put me in an odd place... I don't need to write her off entirely, since I can still enjoy her for a good laugh, or a night out. But her befriending my exN on FB has "forced" me to make a decision... Do I keep her FB friendship, and risk that my exN sees what I write to her or she writes to me or he writes to her, etc.? Because another one of my boundaries is as little contact with exN as possible... no friendship with him right now. If I keep this FB friendship with my girl friend, I feel like I am violating this other boundary. And yet I feel as though it is quite too bad that I have to unfriend her... I wish that she would see this predicament, which I have very clearly written to her about, and be considerate of my feelings in the matter. But given that I haven't heard a response, I am suspecting that she just doesn't really care, or thinks that I'm holding onto too much anger, etc. Granted, I'm holding onto anger, but that's not it... I'm creating boundaries to protect further pain and abuse. I'm giving myself the space from exN that I need to heal. I don't want to read on FB that he is going to visit my friend, or something... I'd rather not know.

She did write me a nice letter when exN left me, and said she was there for me, loved me, etc. I know she has warm sentiments within. I just think she can't be bothered when the "niceness" requires that she make a "sacrifice." My exN is fun, cool, etc., and I guess it meant more to her to be on his friends list than to respect my space. I wouldn't even really care if she was civil with him still... She could have told him something like, "I realize that there are two sides to a story, and I'm doing my best not to judge you, and would be fine communicating with you, but out of respect for my friend, I hope you will understand if I don't put her in an awkward place by befriending you on FB."

For some reason though, I'm having trouble hitting the "remove from friends" button.

[happygirl]

I unfriended a friend on facebook a couple of months ago and she understood.  It was my daughter's babysitter.  We are friends and socialize together.  However, she has the exnh girlfriend listed as a friend on her FB.  It happened on accident, but I was uncomfortable with the situation. 

Do what works best for you and your boundaries.  Sometimes testing the boundaries is a good thing.  After I discussed it with my friend, she totally understood and supported me on taking her off my FB.  She got it that I didn't want my personal info out there so easy for the exnh girlfriend to see.  Also, I didn't want to see exnh girlfriend posting all this stuff about my child and their life together.  It was too close for comfort and inviting drama into my life isn't my thing. 

Sometimes friendships are superficial and others aren't.  Unfortunately, the only way to find out is to test them.

[Cornfield]

Eyes, what a clear explanation you have posted!  I never stopped to think that I may  have grown out of friendships.
Time changes things as well.  I have had to learn to roll with the punches because my childhood was so uneventful and new experiences were not the norm so that I could learn about people.

I saw the same few relatives for social occasions, and I had one neighbor across the road who was available if she wasn't eating or napping.  My adult life by contrast had many new people thrust at me, and I had to learn what to do with all of that.  Then there was the factor that my husband kept me too busy to develop relationships.

There was one annoying habit that I had to deal with constantly with Husband.  Everyone he saw or met, he would end the conversation by saying, "we'll call and have you over sometime."  He spoke as if he meant it, but the  invitation was meant for me to carry out.  There is no way we could have possibly entertained all the people he invited to our house, and I came to understand that the statement had no meaning at all.

Of course, at first I made every effort to keep some of those "promises" but I don't think any of them ever happened.
When you get right down to it, Husband took no time to make friends with those people.  It was meaningless air.

So I had no social life at all unless I stopped my work and called someone to spend time with.  Most of my friends were at jobs while I was at home working, so there was a time clash.  And Husband was no social friend to me at all.
I literally spent years with my children as my friends, including taking classes in college with them.  We bonded very well as friends, with husband pretty much out of the picture by his own choice.   I let it all go at the time.

I have thought a lot about friendships and my isolation in the last few years, and have come to accept the inevitabile consequences of it all.  At least I have some time for my many hobbies now and that is a choice for me.

And I have time to read which is a learning opportunity.

Cornfield

[eyes_up]

It is always a challenge when a friendship takes a turn that is way past boundaries. Seems to me this is personal versus impersonal.

Friend want to direct things the way they work best for her ... best for her is removed from knowing the actual facts, the internal reality of the couple involved.

It is impersonal to friend since it isn't her broken heart involved. It is not her story or her life that has been turnd around. Easy to come a long and say..OK lets all be happy and friends.

I figure it must be tough pressing the un friend button since it is not your decision to appeal to the narcissist but it fits in with the other persons agenda.

For me, Garden Girl, It was easy to do this and turn a friend into an acquaintance and put up the boundaries there by extracting my meaning and old interpretation that I once embraced. i would lighten the embrace, let go of it in order to create new and healthier fun friends.

Like I said above...even stranger can be more aware of the person next to them and their personal conditions. This is not to say you can not go out for a fun time with this person but that she is involving herself in areas she knows nothing about or chooses not to know about.

Everything is not hunky dory wiht you , garden girl, in terms of her fun decision to befriend your X in a place where you communicate with her.

One of the challenges is to to say it to her. She doesn't have to listen or understand but the important thing is that you recognize your needs and practice voicing them. I laerned that in Council. I don't just sweep stuff under the carpet and go silent...keep it to myself. I put it out there now days.

This is an important task / action in terms of healing and debunking the victim state.

I had to do this a few months ago and it had a certain amount of discomfort.I had to tell a new friend (1 year old) that her actions were thoughtless, not appreciated and something I would not tolerate. She did it again and then I was done. Last words were I will take care of this myself. She was always trying to create the world according to her plan with out the consideration of others involved.

I'll bet their are other people who have a problem with her style and no one is saying a thing s she just keeps on wheelin' and dealin' the same sort habitual self saturated maneuvers where ever , when ever.

You bond with her is built on  bad habits and she isn't receptive to change and you are not confronting the person. Strangers as well as friends need to say it out loud. That is my point here. 

I say talk with her face to face , express your decision. Let her know you are not requesting her to change her out look but that her decisions do have an outcome. she doesn't have to know your truth or accept it but give your self a space to provide your explanation so that when You do press the button you know that she she is aware of the cause and affect. Her actions remain unmeaningful as will yours as long as every one goes silent and just sits back sweeping the dirt under the carpet.

Your challenge is to draw the line and stop just going with the other persons flow and I don;t think it matters what the age of the relationship is. It isn't a healthy relationship whether a stranger or an old school time buddy. I tell strangers ..do not step on y toes and I tell my mother do not step on my toes...I tell any one and every one do not step on my toes.Let people know you need them to STOP stepping on your toes. That is part of the healing process from living with a narcissist , being victimized. This is one of the tickets to changing patterns which I say is most important exercise in life for those of us who have not voiced our needs nor have initiated in terms of self respect.

None of this even means the friendship must dissolve but your learning is important. She may be uncomfortable experiencing peoples vulnerabilities and her intimacy muscle is flapping like arm skin ... none the less you ow this to yourself. Deepen your relationship with yourself...it is way more important than any other friendship .

(((hugs)))

eyes

[Julia]

Garden,
 
It is hard to remove someone from our lives, even if they are treating us shabbily, because we have learned for so long that we "deserve" to be treated that way. The problem is that by tolerating such treatment, we open oureslves up to worse . By laying down in front of the door, we make ourselves doormats, and people LOVE to wipe their dirty feet on doormats.

I had an unusual and refreshing experience Saturday.  An acquaintance let me know how she feels about my NH. She had asked whether my kids and I could go to a sing-a--long Sound of Music production with her. I told her that it was their weekend with Dad. Later I found out he was taking them to it (since they had heard about it and asked him to) so I called her to let her know she could look for them there if she wanted. She goes to the same church as he does (my old church) and is very good friends with my mom. I know they all often end up sitting in the same pew because of this.  She let me know in no uncertain terms what she thinks about a man who would do what he did to me and to my kids. She said she felt HE should have left our church..... he is the adulterer.... the liar.........on and on.   I realized how different it is to get such a fiercely protective and moral response. More fierce loyalty than anyone else has given me (including my family, most of our mutual friends). I think that is what you were hoping for from your friend. And she isn't going to give it to you.

 Most people just float along believing that the divorce is a two way street and it is not fair to play favorites. THey expect the drama to be over within 3-4 months, and want to avoid all discomfort at any cost. That is fine FOR HER. You still need to take care of your own boundaries and protect yourself from reactivity. Just having NH on my friends facebook would make me think about him every time I sat down to the computer. Not acceptable for ME. And not my friends problem obviously. So take care of yourself garden. It is your problem and it is yours to take care of.

 I can remember so well the feeling of leaving things undone that I felt NH should take care of (if he had loved me). He would call the bank to transfer money into his own IRA but not mine.  I would moan and groan to get him to be more considerate but I didn't call the bank back. I just lay down on the floor again..... Doormat. THere are so many more example like this and most are worse....

It is time to stand up and take ourselves seriously, take care of ourselves, and develop our sense of boundaries so well that no one will ever be tempted to tread on us again.


Julia

[cheriblossom12]

hi GG

my wrist is now having complications and hard to type.. but.. want to say... this "friend" is NO friend... of course you must delete her totally... she has made her choice... i used to fear this exact thing happening with my friends and the n... not good..

sorry ...

cheri

[Wren]

Ha! I just realized my response made no sense.  I think it was one of those runaway comments that you think went up in smoke, so instead of recreating -- you just move on.  My computer really has some bad days lately.  When I saw it now, I thought, "They have no idea what I was trying to say."  LOL!  I was trying to paint what a hypocrite she and her husband are.

Anyway, my sister used my xN experience against me, rewrote history about our childhood and finagled a portrait from my mother that my old boyfriend from art school drew of me.  Must be one helluva inferiority complex, she's a real charm.  As much as she claims to loathe me, she hangs my portrait among the wall of her so-called cherished family.   

When a friend from Chicago came down to visit me a few years ago when this pain was raw, he said, "She's your sister, you should try harder to get along."  WHAT?  Did he not hear anything?  I got the impression he thought women in general were just catty and trivial.  Bad enough, but it didn't stop there.

Last year, he tells me, "Oh Wren, I saw your sister driving the ambulance the other day...  I ran up to talk to her!"  Well, dearest friend, don't think I didn't warn you, but you just went down a few rungs on my friendship ladder.  No words were necessary, only fewer returned phone calls.  I am curious as to whether sis was gloating for a week or thought there was an ulterior motive.

We always need to protect ourselves.  If others don't "get it," they just won't and we don't need to turn blue explaining it to them.

Eyes, that was a good story about your friend though.  Perhaps a different level of friendship?

Good luck, Gardengirl!

[eyes_up]

Wren  that friend bit the dust for me just a few months ago. It was an intense challenge to do what I did or better yet the way I did it which was completely honest up front and asserting boundaries. You will not hear from a foul friend (not soul friend) when boundaries are asserted.

Worst thing about foul friends is they keep bad habits alive and nourished. I enjoy purging my own bad habits and I plan not to up keep  others. That is a strong value of mine and sentiment is not so important. Sentiment can suck up energy that could be going into something new, present and healthier.

I find it important to notice where change has taken place rather than trying to hide from it. With the past friend...I had changed my tune. I no longer just let things  happen and not say anything and run away cuz I couldn't handle it. The change is I do not accept people walking on my toes . I consider myself responsible for my health and well being and there comes a point in time when it isn't healthy I am not even putting it on the back burner on low. While it is true that some things require time and space ... distance so that balance and insights return ...but when things are simply repeated and I am part of the repeat ... it is time to reorganize my attachments.

eyes