Model Found in Dumpster

[Phoenixxx]

I talk about my own denial, my looking the other way, my having been hoodwinked and conned, my ignorance of what and who he was...and those are all true.

What is ALSO true, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, is that I knew he was bad...and I knew I wasnt.  I can recall little speeches I made to him that were really me trying to talk myself into him not being so bad afterall. I can recall other times where I would tell him I didndt trust anything he said to me, which enraged him and he insisted I just make the choice to trust him and we wouldnt have these trust issues anymore.  he just couldnt, or wouldnt understand how DECIDING to trust doesnt create trust, it merely shelves doubt...it doesnt obliterate doubt, it just shelves it.

But he demanded many things from me he had no business demanding and I had no logical way of giving him.

What am I saying?  (I'm getting anxious posting this stuff so I'm not thinking very linearly)

That despite the con games he and I were both trying to play on me, I knew, if not WHAT was going, what was NOT going on.  I had a 17 yr relationship with Mr NiceGuy before I met my sociopath, so I knew what a good relationship required, what was appropriate, what any normal person would need and could expect.  And I clung to that sucker with white knuckles.  I lost sight of who my sociopath really was and chose the fantasy and the beautiful parts of him often....OFTEN...but my knowledge of what love, commitment, trust, integrity and a RELATIONSHIP was didnt, couldnt leave my consciousness.

And so I fought.  I told you we fought at least every weekend, sometimes more often because I would, like in a shooting gallery, stick my duck head up and start quacking about why I was unhappy, and no matter how often those discussions would become the little shop of horrors where he'd eventually psychologically annihilate me, the duck kept quacking....tenacious am I...or relentless as he'd call me.  He said what attracted him to me was that he knew I was no doormat.  I swung between strong and clear (those windows didnt stay open too long) or confused/pained/anxious, but I never became that doormat, despite him trying everything he knew to make it happen.

I guess, because I would NOT let go that I was dissatisfied (at the very least), hurt and unfulfilled as a partner (at the most), he would start saying things like "If I'm so horrible why are you with me?"  The answers used to be "because I love you stoopid!  *smooch smooch*"  (vomit)     But they eventually became "Sometimes I'm not sure myself anymore"

THATS when he started in earnest to make his exit strategy, he moved overseas, contacted me less, set up profiles on internet dating sites, cultivated relationships with lovers, orchestrated meaningless arguments with me, neglected me, and ratcheted up the abuse...his favourite was setting me up by hurting me, feigning innocence, and then making sure everyone knew I had blown up so he could label me the unstable bipch he needs to get rid of.  You know, same tactic probably all of us have experienced.

I guess, I drove him away because I WOULDNT choose to forget what a normal relationship is.

Plus, I am spoiled, I lead a charmed life.  I'm still fairly young (46), healthy, educated, talented, middle class, successful professional career which I love and am impactful in, a child whom I cherish *by another man*, the best exhusband a girl could hope for, friends, a mom who loves me, my looks (ok I'm no covergirl but I dont lack male attention if I want it) and a sense of self-sufficiency my parents really forced on me too young, but its there and fierce nonetheless.

I know plenty of N's and S's target the weak, like the sick animals trailing behind a herd.  But I keep hearing more and more stories as I go, from accomplished independent women like me who were chosen.  I dont know if they unconsciously are looking for the perfect mother-substitute since the ones they all seem to have had were dysfunctional or disordered themselves who are most likely to fill that love void theyre always hoping to heal, or what.

But I'm SO GRATEFUL I didnt end up like the walking dead like Garrida's wife, a soul so nearly obliterated its like she is a ghost.  And I'm RIGHT PISSED OFF, that I'm still 3 years later, not the same independent, accomplished satisfied woman I used to be.  if I'm not forever changed for the worse, I'm angry at least about how long it takes to feel good and decent and free-from-infection again.

[CZBZ]

Dear Phoenixxx,

Sounds to me like you were a titillating challenge for a misogynist. What fun would a sadist have with a doormat? She'd just lie there and let him wipe his boots on her face. That's no fun, now is it? For a man who is conscious of his cruelty, a machiavellian-type of guy, the ecstasy is in the torture...twisting a woman's mind so she betrays herself. Plus, sounds like this man had the added bonus of your willingness to BE twisted. He musta been in hog-heaven. It's no wonder to me that you're struggling to heal now---the intensity of your self-betrayal would complicate your grief. that's my sense...one of the hardest things for me to come to grips with is NOT standing up for myself when i could see the abuse. I never thought about it this way, but perhaps it's less difficult to accept my ignorance than my culpability. 

You wrote:

"I know plenty of N's and S's target the weak, like the sick animals trailing behind a herd.  But I keep hearing more and more stories as I go, from accomplished independent women like me who were chosen.  I dont know if they unconsciously are looking for the perfect mother-substitute since the ones they all seem to have had were dysfunctional or disordered themselves who are most likely to fill that love void theyre always hoping to heal, or what.

But I'm SO GRATEFUL I didnt end up like the walking dead like Garrida's wife, a soul so nearly obliterated its like she is a ghost.  And I'm RIGHT PISSED OFF, that I'm still 3 years later, not the same independent, accomplished satisfied woman I used to be.  if I'm not forever changed for the worse, I'm angry at least about how long it takes to feel good and decent and free-from-infection again."

One of the reasons I dislike Vaknin's approach to educating people about NPD is because of the opening statement in your quote above. Of course a narcissist or sociopath would aggrandize their power to subordinate 'targets'. I wouldn't expect a malignant narcissist to see it any other way. And I don't fault psychologists for perceiving a beaten-down woman as having been that way prior to meeting the narcissist. She likely says she was 'always' a doormat because in her mind, while she is critically wounded by the relationship, she wouldn't say anything other than that. Right? She is in a state of despair, worn-out, exhausted, emotionally and psychologically wounded from an abusive relationship which always results in a 'betrayal' of some kind. Perhaps it's not infidelity (which can be crippling to the 'betrayed', depending on their degree of trust) or the mere fact that the love offered is not reciprocated. Betrayal is an emotionally crippling experience. Hell, think about it: we hang people for committing treason. Why wouldn't an intimate relationship between two people illicit the same disgust as patriotic outrage?

I do not believe it is appropriate to diagnose a woman (or man) who is leaving an abusive relationship until they have time to heal. We get a very skewed picture of who the 'target' is if we do not allow for the impact of abuse on someone's mental health. How much time? That all depends. Plus, it's my belief that many people get out of a narcissistic relationship without seeking professional help. They are not included in the statistics. If clinical psychologists are drawing conclusions based on those who seek psychotherapy, then the stats are definitely inaccurate. Now that we have Internet resources encouraging people to Speak Up, a whole new image of the TARGET is being created, isn't it? Is she masochistic or has her self-esteem been invalidated to the point she does not value her own worth?

I question many of the assumptions being made about the target. Of course I do. I'm a competent, resilient, resourceful, independent woman myself and yes, my self-appreciation has increased during this healing process.

Do Ns and Ps look for the perfect mother-substitute? I dunno about that. I think the relationship ends up appearing to be that way because of the lack of reciprocal nurturing and the target's desire to 'fill' the gap. To me, we are unconsciously seeking some kind of balance in a relationship and what one person does not give, the other person makes up for. I do not believe it is as simple as saying a target was looking for someone to mother and the N was looking for a mother. In my case and in most cases that I know of, the target was NOT looking for a child to raise when she slipped beneath the silky cover of her ironed sheets.  No Way! But the dynamics of the relationship result in a stagnation of maturation. If the target is NOT pathological herself (or himself), they will continue to mature, albeit with more difficulty, and eventually, the relationship ends. Not nicely either.

That's my thoughts about the assumption that targets are chosen specifically because they can be manipulated. I just don't buy it. If that were true, we would not see the impact of traumatic situations on what psychologists would deem as 'resilient and sound'. Take the Stockholm Syndrome, for example. Or being a prisoner of war. We have to examine the impact of trauma on 'normal' people. If there is such a standard of measure as 'normal' and I'm doubting that more and more every day.  It all depends on WHO has the power to define normal.

"if I'm not forever changed for the worse, I'm angry at least about how long it takes to feel good and decent..."

Yes. The sad fact is that we are changed forever by this experience. it would be foolish to think that we aren't. Instead of looking at the healing process as figuring out how to get over it and leave the past behind, how about looking at the healing process as figuring out how to live with it? Moving through our triggers and sense of worthlessness (or defectiveness), is the only way to live in reality and not subject ourselves to Denial or other ego defenses protecting us from residual pain...this is what we do and it is much easier to work through our stuff on a message board than it is with the neighbors next door.

I don't blame you for being angry. I am angry sometimes. Not as much as I was because my life is becoming happier, safer and freer...finally. That I've had to spend so many years working through childhood issues, husband issues, children issues, political issues, religious issues, cultural issues, social issues, (get my point) is a PAIN IN THE ARSE. How much better my life would have been had the whole world treated me the way I wanted.  Yea, it's lousy to find out the one person you deeply trusted didn't even like ya. The only way for me to live with what has happened to me in my life is to find 'value' in the healing process. To find 'value' in my experience. To keep searching for golden needles in a pile of manure because they ARE ready for the finding if we have the guts to keep digging. To believe my life is better because of the N-relationship allows me to keep looking for the value.

It has taken years to get to this point. I'd say about 55. 


Hugs,
CZ

[Phoenixxx]

I DID stand up for myself, every single weekend.  But because of my competitive nature, the thinking, twisted in with my commitment, was about making "him understand, because I wont accept whats wrong".

And the trauma bonding and confusion (brainwashing?  maybe) meant I didnt REALLY consider leaving was an option until the hope died.

I find your first paragraph triggering me.

HIS view of me as be willing to be twisted, doesnt fit with MY view of me as constantly fighting against the twisting.

But I'm thinking of it in terms of intention and motive...I guess youre thinking of it strictly in terms of attendance.

[CZBZ]

I hope the 'trigger' leads to introspection because my intent is not to criticize you in any way. After all, Phoenixxx, we're all in this together. Nobody on this forum made it out of the narcissistic relationship without self-betrayal to some degree. My comment referred to your awareness that he was playing games. That's the hard thing for people to accept...that they 'knew' he-or-she was mistreating them and they still couldn't pull themselves away.

It's almost like grabbing hold of an electric fence and not knowing how to turn off the juice no matter how badly you want free yourself.

I realize you stood up for yourself as did other people. Rather than view yourself as a doormat though (in reference to your prior message), my intention is to point out that people RESIST abuse. They do not accept it like helpless weaklings who want to be hurt. I think most people eventually come to the realization that the abuser is finding satisfaction in mistreating us, at least on some level. When we finally SEE IT, that's when our natural instincts to 'save the relationship' kick in. Instead of leaving, we try to teach them how to love us. It's ridiculous, yes...but that's the bind we're in.

Hugs,
CZ

[Phoenixxx]

We watched Slingblade on his big screen very early in the courtship.

During the scene where the abusive father beats his son into the corner of his room with his belt, I physically flinched.  I found it very difficult to watch. 

ExS asked me after the movie why I flinched then.  I tell him my parents never laid a hand on me, I never got one spanking even though my dad was a tough macho guy, his booming voice was punishment enough.  And that I have a young son, I feel protective of all children.  I find it hard to tolerate that kind of cruelty.

I dont have experience being a willing victim.  I dont have experience being twisted.  But I had loads of experience by that time of standing up to bullies in order to protect my (older) brother, other kids in my class, all sorts of underdogs.  Bullies left me alone in fact. Until him...well and that troll from the other forum!!!

I was sexually assaulted the year before my exsociopath and I met.  I was leaving a date's condo, warm summer night, walking towards my pickup truck about 2am when I got knocked to the grass and held down.  A stranger was trying to rape me.  In what felt like a nano-second I became a raving lunatic, I felt like a blur of slashing blades.  I wasnt armed with any but I was murderous then.  There was no time for thought.  It was immediate.  I be came murderous.  I hissed at him while I was slashing away at him "I'm going to ****ing kill you" and dug my fingers into an eye socket.  I was about to gouge out an eye.  He jumped off me screaming and ran away.  And if he hadnt one of us might have died, and I wasnt planning on it being me.

Thats a survival instinct sure, but its also a clear sign to me that I never had "victim" tattoo'd on my forehead.  Instead its some part of me that does not take without giving in kind, without putting myself inbetween whats good and the evil that hopes to attack it.  Its NOT a spirit of fleeing danger.

And as Sandra Brown explains so well, traits that are assets in life and in relationships with normal people -- become skillfully used weapons in the hands of a psychopath.

[Phoenixxx]

CZ

I trust your intentions.  My being triggered doesnt mean I suddenly see you as a threat as much as I'm being shot back to memories and feelings that are overpowering. 

I did betray myself, and my values.  read above.....thats me, thats who I am, the warrior, the defender against bullies.  Many of my dreams are about being a Navy Seal persona, too bad I dont have that body image in real life!!!!

But I agreed at some point to justify my not turning him in when he did things I knew about, to other people....and animals.

But the agreement was not conscious, it was subconscious.  Just as my constant awareness that I was a good (not perfect) woman with a bad guy was subconscious only blipping on the radar intermittently.

And strictly in terms of attendance, and his view, I may have been playing out my warrior script in MY head, but in reality I was that tin duck in the shooting gallery.  The awareness that I came to VERY VERY late in the game that the fights got me nowhere and nothing beneficial, but sure made convenient excuses for expressing his constant rage, exerting power and dominance, and BEING SADISTIC  was when I stopped.

We spent our last 2 months together in Barcelona (a different kind of bondage when youre overseas with an abuser - where do you turn?).   We had 2 arguments in those 2 months in which he was uncharacteristically physically violent.  And oddly enough those were arguments in which I did not approach things the same way.  I didnt say much these two times, I simply said comments calmly and quietly like "its time to grow up".  I suppose in contrast to all the hundreds of fights we'd had before, it perhaps was clear I wasnt going to play the usual game, and I wasnt going to explain, plead, but rather I had "got it".  What "it" was I only had a tentative grip on, it was clear but not yet tangible.  I suppose he didnt know what weapon to use against me anymore, we had already agreed to split up after our vacation, so he used the only thing he had left...his physicality.

And just like everything you hear from us survivors all the time, it didnt hurt much at all compared to the things he had done psychologically to me all the years before.

I dont know why I'm writing all this except that that warrior is alive and well in me.  Probably hypervigilant for a fight more than ever before.  But all the soft cushy stuff that made me a kind, generous, fun, loving person to the outside world is overshadowed, gone into hibernation?  I dont trust that it wont get annihilated again, and I dont want to fight people who arent really the ones I'm angry with, and theyre raw, eh?

still...theyre raw...no fair.

[CZBZ]

 

"I may have been playing out my warrior script in MY head, but in reality I was that tin duck in the shooting gallery."

Great insight. No, terrific insight! We see ourselves as being strong and yet, we stayed in the shooting gallery. I love what you've written...perfect.

"...a different kind of bondage when youre overseas with an abuser - where do you turn?"

Good question. Of course we use whatever means we can to deal with the abuser. Sounds like the perfect way for a sociopath to isolate his prey. You had no resources...in my way of understanding trauma bonds, that only made the 'attachment' worse. He was the abuser AND the rescuer. Is that how you see it, too??


p.s. Glad to know i didn't 'trigger' you with my comments. I believe serious triggers are best left for a professional's private office, ya know? there's not much I can do over here on the other side of the monitor. It's so easy to misinterpret people's messages OR not be clear with our own!


Hugs,
CZ




 

[Phoenixxx]

yours was not the only trigger I had today
so I know my raw parts are on the surface right now

and I'm pretty good at seeing whats a trigger
identifying and naming it
and then I know the onus is all on me to deal with it

I dont expect you to do anything except maybe hold in your awareness that I'm sitting over here hurting in these moments


I felt oddly detached from his rage in Barcelona.  I also noticed my learned helplessness [which I was in denial about it too, I am a warrior afterall!!] was just not an excuse for me anymore, so while I would always rely on him to take me places because I didnt know the lay of the land, I remember walking away from him in a cafe one afternoon, not knowing where I was, or where our apartment was in relation, but stuck my nose in the direction that felt right and started walking.  2 hours later I got to the apartment, an hour or more later he came in a raving lunatic telling me I was abusive for making him worry about me.

I looked at him from across the room.  Which is literal as well as figurative.  You know how in those rages they do everything they can to make it personal, snag you with a sharp barbed hook and then reel you in like a marlin?  That didnt happen, I was looking at a raging guy, what he was saying didnt matter.  Thats what I mean when I said things had shifted by then where I could say things like "its time to grow up"...I mean I think, I had just crossed that threshold of growing up myself.  I think I was reminding myself of that goal for me as much as I was letting him know the jig was up.

Him being physically violent then only made tangible and visible (I'm a visual thinker right?) the awakening I was tentatively holding by that point.

There it was, idisputable evidence that he was an abuser...he made tangible what was previously only sensed and felt. Even when he was right in my face in that moment, my awareness was still watching from the corner of the room...detached.

The trauma bonding had taken place long before that.

I had started becoming my own rescuer by then.

What was bondage about being in Barcelona is, my $ paid for my half of the apartment, and my plane tickets, and my half of the car rental...what financial resources I had left were NOT enough to get a separate residence or a new plane ticket -- I was trapped unless I wanted to call home and beg my elderly mother to save me.

You know, I just remembered on a night of a fight where I was calm and he was losing it, he walked out.  It was midnight maybe.  He came back before dawn, 4am ish.  He snuck in and then paced from the bedroom window to the livingroom window trying to be as quiet as he could.  Where did he go? all the bars and restaurants in Barcelona were closed.  he didnt KNOW anybody there.  To the beach I suppose (our apartment was a few hundred feet from the beach).  But why was he sneaking around looking out the windows down into the street below in the middle of the night? 

I asked him what was going on, startled him because he assumed I was asleep.
he said he was evading police, they were unfairly targeting him.


huh?

see? another one of those coincidences, with motive - he likely did something to someone when his attempts to annihilate me were frustrated.

****!

I'm SO glad I'm not involved with him anymore.

[CZBZ]

Dear Phoenixxx,

The good thing about online communication is that YOU are in charge. If you're feeling uncomfortable, you can log-off the computer. You can choose how much you can tolerate and when it is time to back away for awhile. I like this about online forums...we are not trapped in a room without escape. We can always leave the computer and choose when-or-if we are ready to participate again.

I believe you've mentioned PTSD and yes, it sounds like you were coping with a stress overload at that point. Yes, you certainly are a fighter, rescuing yourself from a terrible situation! (dangerous, too) I can only imagine how frightening it must have been to realize you had been in denial about your partner's real intentions and capacity for cruelty (even murder). To suddenly break through denial is liberating AND terrifying because we realize what a dangerous position we were (or ARE) in. At that point, maybe we feel oddly detached as you wrote, but what we've done is NUMB our emotions because they were overwhelming to us. When we do that, we also NUMB our intuition which is dangerous...but that's what happens. If a person is numbing their emotions because they cannot cope with their reactions, then they are numbing their self-protective ALERT system. That IS a scary thought and it helps me understand why your relationship with him is so difficult to face.

I've found it very hard to accept the fact that people use 'denial' all the time and it's completely out of our conscious awareness. We believe we're aware, conscious, seeing things as they really are and yet, it's what we can't see that threatens our safety the most. I'm still working on accepting that part of being human. ha!

Hugs,
CZ

[Phoenixxx]

Yes, its why I havent been participating much over the last number of weeks, I'm comfortable with coming and going as the need to approach or withdraw shifts.

It seems I needed to share some of the more touchy secrets, but also I must have been feeling safe enough to share them.

It does feel a wee bit odd though that  not many others are sounding back from the canyon.  Maybe my experiences range a bit too far "out there".  I'm willing to stay in this sense of aloneness right now.  Plus, I'm feeling rather turtled now too, and so not participating on other people's threads which may be compounding things.  Are people disbelieving?  afraid?  dont know what to say?

Your voice is clear CZ, I'm grateful you havent left me hanging out here naked.

You know the Sopranos...theres a scene with Adriana telling Christopher that she has been a rat for the FBI, and that she wants him to run away with her.  He agrees, but then at the store he sees a guy get into a run down car with kids in tattered clothing and instead he goes to Tony and informs him, who then has Adriana taken away and murdered in the woods.  For many episodes after that, Christopher, who was abusive to Adriana talks about how he made the ultimate sacrifice for Tony, by offering up his fiancee, a woman he loved,  for slaughter.  But in that flash at the store, we know what the real reason was he did it.  Its because he knew, to stay with the woman he loved meant he would have to give up the lifestyle which provided him with little work and easy money, adrenalin, power, respect...a lifestyle where he could "be somebody".

I watched Soprano reruns in earnest when my relationship ended, and that one episode, and later near the end of the series when Tony himself kills Christopher (his nephew, his #2 man) in their car crash because he was disgusted with his drug use -- it really sunk in how cheap life is for a sociopath...and how even cheaper love is.  If the chips fell, I have no doubt whatsoever I would have been considered "disposable" in more ways than just breaking up.  My son even more so.  ExS told me a number of times I was not at the top of the priority list, HE was, and that I didnt even rank a close second.  And when I finally came to terms with that crime he committed against me it became part of my identity somehow.  A debt he will never be able to repay.

Its very exciting being with someone like exS.  It wasnt what attracted me to him.  In fact it was that he told me he was becoming legitimate and wanted to keep it that way, he wanted to change, become a better person --THAT attracted me.  Because I had gone through that process myself as a teen.  And because I believe in redemption.  It was slowly over time that either the mask fell off, or he lost the battle with the 95% in him.  Either way it doesnt matter, I'm no gun mol, and his character isnt likely to ever change, whether he is a lawyer or politician or motivational speaker or a failure.  The adrenalin highs only have so much value for me, like Bailey's, I like it over ice or in my coffee once in awhile, but I dont reach for it everyday.

But I do remember thinking more than  a few times (and this is why Cornfields post from a month or so ago moved me so much) - "this would be one of those perfect crime moments, or locations, where he could kill me and claim its an accident and nobody would ever know".

I didnt escape unscathed.  I might write about the crime one day.  But I'm no Adrianna, either, thank God.

[Cornfield]

Phoenix, please choose "don't know what to say" for your answer to the question.

Those of us who have lived another life, can't always think of the explanations to the problem.  I have no experiences or thoughts on which to base an answer sometimes.   I hope you understand.  Beside, I am still canning tomatoes.  Then I am going on vacation.  It is as honest as I can be.

Cornfield

[Phoenixxx]

Cornfield,

just letting me know you hear me is gift enough.  The answer to my problem, is probably more than anything, time and distance.  I dont think I expect anyone to solve things for me.

Thank you for being here.

[Julia]

Phoenix,

I am very glad you have told your story. Please do not take the quiet on the board personally. They don't call these the dog days of summer for nothing......

 I will explain why I haven't writen more......

Things are incredibly hectic and upsetting for me right now..... NH is not taking the kids (8, 10, 12) at all ( nor would I want him too) but school hasn't started yet, and so I am busy.  They have anxiety because of the most recent visits with their dad, which were very bad, and they know that he is having another deep breakdown. I think they are waiting for the other shoe to drop and are trying very hard to stay in denial all at the same time.

Also, a South African woman moved into my basement this week (free rent in exchange for help with the kids and cleaning - this is a huge blessing and it is going very well, but it takes a lot of my time and attention). I begin a graduate program in a few weeks and thought I would have several kid-less weeks to do errands and house projects... but, alas, NH is in crisis over his planned 2 1/2 weeks alone with his three daughters so he stopped seeing them in anticipation of the vacation! Needless to say the "vacation" was called off and the kids stayed here.

And finally, I usually respond to either a specific question, or to stories that echo my experience with NH. My NH is severe enough to have been unequivocally diagnosed by several professionals, but your S is something else altogether. What you describe is sociopathy in the truest sense, cruel and criminal behavior, coupled with enjoyment of the crime.

 I sense that because you were with a sociopathic N you think that most Ns are like yours. The truth is that most Ns are quite a lot less intentional in their abuse, and only Ss abuse and kill animals like this, and are so openly aware of how different they are. A couple of years ago dogs were being poisoned in our neighborhood park. It suddenly stopped. My intuition was that the wife of the poisoner knew and told him that if one more dog turned up dead she would report him. THat is a Sociopath, like your X. THe garden variety N is grandiose and cruel to a lower degree than your XS. So I cannot really tell stories that relate to your experience. The closest I could get.... and this is whimpy, but I have my reasons for wondering...... is that NH said he told something to his Psychiatrist in the inpatient program that he had never told anyone.

THe thing is.... that with a garden variety N, because the person seems more "normal", it is easier to keep trying to please them and to make things work. It is easier for them to twist and twist a loving person into knots until they begin to hate themselves and every single thing in their life has turned upside down and inside out. That is an experience I can speak to in great detail.

So please, understand that I feel very supportive as you journal out your experience here. I believe you completely, and I am somewhat scared for you. I would urge you to never, ever, let on to your XS that you fully understand who and what he is and what he has done. I urge you to act a little naive if you ever have any contact with his old friends, for example. You wouldn't want to become a target of one of his rampages. He may "know" deep down that you "know", but I suspect that he has just enough magical thinking to believe he was clever enough to have kept you in the dark about the details or proof. Please be careful to let him keep thinking that.

Julia

[Phoenixxx]

thank you Julia

I dont take it personally in that I feel judged, its just a little unnerving.  I'm glad for your voice.

[LDW]

~But because of my competitive nature, the thinking, twisted in with my commitment, was about making "him understand, because I wont accept whats wrong".~

Phoenixxx, I can so relate to that...

Sandra Brown;

Competitiveness is a risk factor. As wonderful as competitiveness is in regular life, her competitiveness however, is a downfall in the relationship with the psychopath. This is because as the relationship begins to become pathologically-driven and his crazy-making increases, instead of running for the hills she is likely to stay and battle it out. She’s not afraid to try to make a point and certainly doesn’t want him to “get one over on her.”

Invested in relationships. The women became deeply attached to their romantic partners, which is why they didn’t give up when the going got rough.

I think we should all stop thinking about ourselves as "easy prey" because we're 'vulnerable' or we have 'no self-esteem'. STOP giving them so much 'credit'. Come on, it's a plain and simple fact that these kind of bazturds exist. You've burnt yourself on one of them and you should become aware you CANNOT do anything other than "run for the hills" and even then, you're NOT safe if you're not AWARE of the sick tricks they play. Sure, I'm happy that in my case it wasn't a killer or a batterer but he IS a pathological, period. He battered me psychologically and took pleasure in it. They have existed forever, they're part of the human kind unfortunately and there's a potential monster in everyone and in some cases it comes out.

Trust and respect have to be earned, what you see is what you get, no more Mr. Nice Guy! Yes I've learned the hard way but I refuse to become all paranoid now. I know 95% of all people are not like that and my experience has taught me many things, in fact; once you see through them they become very predictable whether you're dealing with a 'garden variety' narcissist or a sociopath. They WILL NOT CHANGE. Get away and stay away, that's all you can do. It's a terrible experience but it's part of life. And even with all the nasty mofo's in it, it's still a wonderful world.

There's NOTHING wrong with you, you could not have known because it takes one to know one.

And keep it up; stand up to bullies, fight!! Fight the wrong people with the right knowledge 

And love the rest.

x