Hola! Foo Here

[foofoogirliegirl]

(For those of you who don't know me, I have a N mother; and, of course, then I dated N's because I was raised to believe that behavior was normal.)

Just got back from spending three weeks out of state as both my parents got sick.  N mom put herself in the hospital because when she initially got sick, she refused to go to the doctor and then when she finally went to the doctor, she (of course) ignored his instructions (funny...I don't remember the story about when she graduated from Stanford Medical School) because she is an N and all knowing like the Powerful Wizard of Oz.  Anyway, she landed in ICU for a week and then spent another two and a half weeks in the hospital.  Dad got sick about the same time.  He was in the hospital for a week.  My brother flew out and stayed for a week; then I flew in.

I decided long ago that what was important to me was having a relationship with my father, and I couldn't have that without being around her.  So, since I couldn't change her, I changed myself:  I just ignored or laughed off whatever my mother said.  I made sure I didn't react to what she said.  I made sure I told her nothing personal.  I realized that nothing she said mattered anyway because she was a certified fruitloop and what did I care what a fruitloop thought of me?

I was there for three weeks, helping, shopping, getting meds, getting treats and magazines, showing up at the hospital at 6:30 a.m to eat breakfast with my mom, spending all day at the hospital, blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc. - basically busting my chops (some times I hadn't had a shower for three days...which is completely out of character for me).  THREE WEEKS.  Three weeks of helping 24/7.  Paying my airfare, paying for the rental car, paying for food, magazines, those treats (it all adds up).  My gawd, I could have gone to Europe and back.

And, what did I get?  THREE WEEKS OF ABUSE from her.  I kinda have to laugh at myself - what else did I expect?

Knowing what I know, I officially wash my hands of her.  I will never go back there again.  I've been sucking down her crap for 42 years and I'm offically sick of it and I'M MAD AS HELL AND NOT DOING THAT ANYMORE.  I don't love her (I think I was just going along with the "party line" all these years because you're "supposed" to love your mom).  I can't stand her.  I refuse to be around her.  And, for all I care, when Dad dies, she can rot in a rest home.  It what she deserves.

It does sadden me that this will result in the end of my relationship with my father.  But, he - despite all his good qualities - has been her accomplice all these years.  He loves her so much that he has lost any rational idea of what is appropriate or inappropriate behavior.  He has also lost all his dignity.  At this point, I don't know who I am madder at:  my mom for treating him like a dog or him for letting her treat him like a dog (quite frankly, I wouldn't treat a dog like that).

I am no longer going to deny, hide, whatever my feelings for the "good of the family."  In our "family" (and I use the term loosely), the only feelings that matter are my mother's.  Hah!  No more.

I can almost bet what will happen next:  since I didn't "toe the line" and do whatever my mom wanted, now I must be punished!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGG!!!!!!

Gosh, I have been almost home for two weeks and I am still tired and beyond ANGRY (I should not let her have this much power over my feelings).  I think part of it is that I have never really gotten angry with her...and, now I am.

[SydneyFireworks]

Hi Foo - great to see you 

I was there for three weeks, helping, shopping, getting meds, getting treats and magazines, showing up at the hospital at 6:30 a.m to eat breakfast with my mom, spending all day at the hospital, blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc. - basically busting my chops (some times I hadn't had a shower for three days...which is completely out of character for me).  THREE WEEKS.  Three weeks of helping 24/7.  Paying my airfare, paying for the rental car, paying for food, magazines, those treats (it all adds up).  My gawd, I could have gone to Europe and back.

Oh wow, Foofoo, you deserve a medal - can't see any medal emoticons so here are some  for you.

I'm so sorry you have had to go through all this, and dread the day that I might have to do it myself.  My parents aren't N's, but they are seriously weird and difficult to get along with (which is why they are in UK and I am in Australia LOL).  Not sure I could do it, actually.
So kudos to you.

And, nice to see you back here!

Hugs
Syd

[eyes_up]

Hey FOO, Glad to hear from you. Me and some other women just started a board about adult children of narcissistic parent(s).  Soo, I hear you on this one. I am finally over the anger. It does finally happen. But I must tell you , being around the N-mom still can cause triggers but they don't last. Well, that is me but I say this because I figure it is possible. My mother is so terribly over the top disturbed that giving it power is at this point ridiculous. Humor is good and NC is the best. Don't ask me which is better. i once decided I chose to deal with my mother rather than my father but now I really do not want to deal with either and I never in my life would have predicted this. It ends up, after all the emotions are worked out and the anger has dissipated that doing mom is just work. Nothing more than taking care of a child. so, If I am interested in baby sitting , I phone mom.  Moast often I feel like I am hanging out with a teenager. any way, I am glad you came to visit. I've missed your posts and I hope you visit more often

(((hugs)))

eyes

[CZBZ]

Helloooooooooooo FooFooGirlieGirl! How G-R-E-A-T to read your message this morning!! Well, not 'great' that your mother has only gotten worse in her old age instead of better, but 'great' in that you've been missed! You've got a good heart and the desire to love your parents despite their 'issues' and whether they reciprocate your ability to love them or not, YOU have it in your mind and heart. That's the amazing power of the resilient child who never received the 'unconditional' nurturing she needed and yet, she was able to accept and love other people in spite of her deprivation (and abuse).

It's hard to figure out why some people survive emotionally deprived childhoods and other people don't. Maybe there are those who refuse to excuse themselves from being the best person they can be...and others who use the 'victim' excuse to victimize others? I dunno...it always amazes me to see women like yourself who have tried and tried and kept on trying in spite of their mother's entitlement, arrogance, self-absorption and lack of empathy for her own children!

I read this comment somewhere (?) but it stuck in my head because it said so much about the lives of the good people I've met on WoN:

"She tried and tried and tried and tried. And then she died."

Note that nowhere in that statement is a positive outcome that 'trying' ever got her what she wanted. I think it sums up the narcissistic relationship so well. We try and try and try and try and then we die. Maybe we should change it to this: "She tried and tried and tried and then she quit trying to earn the love she never got and lived happily ever after." 

Don't be too angry with yourself, Foo. We all hang on to the hope that our love and dedication to a parent will result in liberating the whole family. I never felt that 'loving' the narcissist was purely to GET love back for myself. That's a limited perception of why people stick with N-relationships for as long as they do. To me, I felt liberated from the restrictions of self-absorption as a young woman and wanted the people I loved to experience the same thing. But hey, ya can lead a horse to water but ya can't make 'em drink, right?

Maybe we finally get comfortable with appreciating our own ability to care about and love others? I certainly did not feel ENTITLED to be loved unconditionally as an adult...if I behaved badly or mistreated other people, then the only way to restore an open heart was to make amends and 'do the right thing'. Narcissists, including narcissistic mothers, perceive themselves as being HIGHLY ENTITLED to their children's love and yet we as children must EARN their pitiable golden crumbs of love by sacrificing our individuality and meeting their expectations. Expectations of which, if anyone has grown up with a narcissistic parent, human beings are incapable of achieving.

Sometimes you have to walk away because no one, not even a mother, is entitled to abuse other people---especially her own children. Or make them feel BAD about themselves or worthless because of her disapproval. No matter how strong we get, how resilient, how mature, how independent, a mother's rejection weakens our self-confidence and sense of worth. When someone is taking a chunk out of your soul each time you attempt to 'care' for them, the only responsible thing to do is to TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN SOUL.

Hugs,
CZBZ

[eyes_up]

Hi Foo, I had another thought on this N-mother business. the way I was able to get out of the anger was ultimately to get intensly sad as in grieving. part of the grief happens when I realize that my mother is isolated in her world and live through some sort of illusion ... that reality causes grief and the other is the sadness of not getting need met..just basic needs of being seen and heard.

It is tough stuff and it does come up since it has been a life time of this sort of experience in terms of mom. It is always a hurt place although with the work of grieving and knowing the hurt I am able to grow bigger than it.

What i have figured in terms of unconditional love is that I have conditions on love. What this means is that my mother can say she loves me a million times over. She does say it often enough but her behavior is not loving. It is not considerate. So this idea or practice of unconditional love...I don't even get any of it. One either behaves lovingly or one does not.

 When My behaviors are loving and are not reciprocated for some reason I am not inspired to keep on giving. I mean I keep giving and loving some where but not in places where LOVE does not grow. I go where my heart grows and I am inspired spread this practice. I once wrote this saying .."go where your heart grows" on a friends bicycle. They are my words that I decided around the age of 21 worked.  I talso means go were my heart grows and where other peoples do as well.

Now days I can say "I love my mother" but it doesn't really matter much be cause I don't do the things she equates as love. I am no longer servant daughter even if it is very easy to do so. It is easy to help people.
Most people I run into want to help right back. Most people want to make some sort of connection and most people respond and acknowledge the other person effort because they are affected, they can feel the other person. That seems to be a healthy organism aware of its environment.

Sure i can act on the basis of love and help where there is no reward and I do. but at some point I can not live on that alone. That is when I find myself DONE. I will be angry if I expected something more so I no longer expect anything from my mother. That hurts...it hurts every time I know there is no change to happen in the other person. that the person I love is locked off from experiencing anything empathetic or any connection in terms of me.

It hurts when my mother can not see me. She sees someone else in her head or something else rather than another person. I live with this most of the time happy as a clam because I was able to over come the idealistic Love. I am also have an understanding that unconditional love is a joke to a certain degree.

Humans have needs. If the needs are not met then their is malnutrition or emotional neglect. Humans NEED nurturance, human touch and connection _ with out it they die.

I find it difficult to dope myself up on unconditional love. it feels like a drug to me.

 I mean I love... Love is an energy not an idea. The energy produces actions and in turn are felt by both the lover and the lovee..other person responds ..wow , I feel loved and I experience your love. That just seems kind of basic exchange and if that wasn't happening then nothing really would be happening. I don't know that humans would survive if this exchange wasn't happening.

So being in a predicament where the exchange doesn't happen is OK as long as it isn't claiming a high percentage of your love energy. If my present experience of life and self is that I am well nourished and emotionally fore filled then I may just chose to take my love energy and have an excess to throw down a black hole. Black hole is when the love doesn't grow.

So I relate to love as an energy rather than an idea or philosophy. Love can become a practice but with in the practice of loving, understand love as an energy is vitally important. Reciprocation is a balance of energies and a black hole is just an energy sucker.

I often get angry for giving love in places that in no way are able to receive it nor exchange. I figure my anger is a green flag telling me what is healthy for my energy system. My energy system is no more or less important than the next persons but I am responsible fordirecting in order to maintain balance, self nuturance. Those two make me available and rich to share.

 

eyes

[foofoogirliegirl]

 My mother is so terribly over the top disturbed that giving it power is at this point ridiculous. Humor is good and NC is the best. - eyes

You got that right eyes!  I think that's part of what I'm angry about - it is beyond silly of me to give her this kind of power!  I am giving a fruitloop power!  YIKES!

[CZBZ]

Maybe you are giving a fruitloop power but the only way to know there are unresolved issues going on is to recognize the 'trigger' and face it. It's one thing to have an intellectual understanding of the dynamics between a narcissistic mother and her child---but it's entirely another to process this reality emotionally. I wish we could heal with a 'thought' or a dissertation on malignant narcissism but life doesn't seem to work that way. We feel it and we can either accept that feeling and work with it, OR, we can do the narcie-thing ourselves and deny what we're feeling.

I still find it a challenge to feel my deep emotions about being deprived as a child but if I don't fess up to my pain, I'll keep getting triggered until I do. Anyway, that's how it is for me. My sadness catches me by surprise more often than I care to admit...well, life is both tragic and beautiful, isn't it?

Hugs,
CZ

[foofoogirliegirl]

 No matter how strong we get, how resilient, how mature, how independent, a mother's rejection weakens our self-confidence and sense of worth.  - CZCB

And, therein, lies the rub:  I am resilient, mature, independent and my mom can't stand it!  Those are all the things she is not and she hates me for it!  I never realized until now just how JEALOUS she is of me.  (I do have my share of bad qualities but jealously is not one of them).  Well, she is jealous of everyone!

What she reallys want is for me to be a total and complete MESS!  Oh, how she would love that - in her mind, it would make her look like less of a mess, wouldn't it?  And, of course, if I were a mess then she could say things like, "Oh, I am sooooooooooooooooo worried about her and wish I could help her with her financial, alcohol, drug, and sex problems!"  or "Well, she was always a difficult child and now she's a difficult adult."  (Of course, on the other hand, she takes full and complete credit when anyone says I'm a good person.  Hahahaha...they certainly blow whichever way the wind goes, don't they?).

I suddently realize that I've been backing off all these years in order to "keep the peace".  And, now it dawns  =msn lightbulb=on me that she isn't one bit interested in "peace".  LOL!  

I do have to share with you the "classic" that occurred on this trip (there are many, but this is my personal favorite).  I am visiting her in the hospital and we are reading magazines (magazines I paid and brought to her I might add).  Out of the CLEAR BLUE SKY, she pulls this rabbit out the the hat, along with a look of utter and complete digust and contempt on her face, "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL, I suppose the ONLY thing you do is drink and smoke because it's not LIKE YOU'RE HAVING SEX AND WHAT ELSE IS THERE???"  Huh?  My only three choices in life are smoking, drinking and sex?  Huh?  This statement coming from a self-confessed Valium addict?  (But, hey, that's not her fault either!)  Yes, I do smoke and I do drink...but that's certainly not all I do!!!

I am sitting here shaking my head because that is soooooooooooooooooo wrong on so many levels.  What a lovely way to tell me that she thinks my life is sad and pathetic!  I'm sure my jaw was on the floor when she said that.  Once I recovered (and you always sit there thinking that you must have misunderstood because the statement was so hostile and offensive), I said, "Movies.  Books.  Plays.  Concerts.  Cooking classes.  Cooking,  Entertaining.  The antique mart.  Massages.  Manicures and pedicures.  Shopping.  The farmer's market...."  She just rolled her eyes at me and shook her head like I was lying.

Of course, she would tell others that:  a)  I misunderstood her (LOL!  How else to take a comment like that???), b)  she didn't mean it that way (yes, I'm sure she did mean it exactly that way), c)  that it was "just the truth!" (she loves to hide behind that one), d)  "I don't remember anything" (this has been her current favorite since she got out of the hospital) or e) "She's telling lies about me!" (of course, when mom makes her comments, she makes sure it's just me and her - which, of course, let's me know she knows EXACTLY what she's saying and what she's doing).

Sheesh, what makes her think my sex life is any of her biddness?  (I must admit that the FIRST thing that popped in my mind when she said that was, "Yea, I bet you and Dad are boinking like rabbits what with you both being on oxygen and you having only 30% of your lung capacity left!") Like I tell her anything in the first place!  How does she not know I have a "friends with benefits"?  And, of course, if I were doing the hokey pokey with every Tom, Dick and Harry who came along, she would have something to say about that too.

Gawd, all of the is is so beneath me.  I don't know why I'm wasting my time even being angry.

[foofoogirliegirl]

As you said, CZCB, healing does not go in a straight line! 

Maybe I just got too big for my britches and thought I had all this "N" stuff figured out and licked.

She did make a few tactical errors with my Dad, tho.  She called up one night and told him I was a control freak (LOL!  Can we say, "PROJECTION"?!) and then she called another night and said, "She's trying to take my place!!!"  I just looked at Dad in disbelief and told him that was SICK.  Dad was standing there, a look of complete disbelief on his face, saying, "I've never seen her like this..." and I felt like saying, "Well, WELCOME TO MY WORLD!"

He was great and very supportive of me while she was in the hospital...but, of course, the minute she was released, everything went back to the way it was before.  (As in Dad making excuses for her behavior, etc.)

[CZBZ]

What you're going through is called The Collapse. I read that somewhere...I read too much and can't give proper attribution sometimes. The collapse is not my idea though, let me clarify that point.

The Collapse is a description for what happens to us when a parent knocks the wind out of our sails. We're going along doing the 'right' thing (according to our beliefs and values), feeling pretty good about ourselves for rising above the negativity by acting in a conscious, empathic and compassionate manner and suddenly, yo mama sticks a pin in your Balloon. The air rushes out and hot damn, we feel like we're six years old again and wimped out like a deflated piece of stretchy plastic.

I hate narcissistic parents for doing that to children who are doing their best to act in accordance with their conscience!

As they say, Foo---"NO GOOD DEED EVER GOES UNPUNISHED."

I also experience a temporary 'collapse of self' though it isn't the same as a narcissistic injury. It lasts only a few days, not YEARS;---or an ENTIRE lifetime. We get ourselves pumped back up eventually because we are able to resist the narcissist's projected worthlessness. We have the resiliency to restore self-worth for ourselves, thank GOD. If we're having trouble, we do the WISE and LOVING thing and ask people for help. There isn't any use going to the narcissist for support...that only feeds their egos. Besides, they don't have support to offer anyone so needy as to ask for help. 

I call the Collapse my 'resurrection'. It takes about three days after getting slaughtered for being kind and considerate to narcissistic people. The problem isn't that I'm kind-and-considerate, the problem is that narcissists walk around with stick pins...ever at the ready to burst anyone's bubble if they can.

When the narcissist is feeling vulnerable---WATCH OUT. If we are taking care of them because they cannot take care of themselves, they FEEL vulnerable and inferior to us, NOT appreciative. There ain't no gratitude in the marrow of their bones...just attitude. And it goes all the way to the hollow core of their empty NASTY selves.

Hugs,
CZ

[foofoogirliegirl]

The insults do nothing to devaluate my self worth - gawd, if I believed everything hurled my way, I would have had a nose job, a breast job, and OD'd on pills long ago!  I realize that those comments are said and designed to make me feel insecure, inferior and small, but I haven't fallen for that in a long time.  I know for a fact that there is absolutely nothing wrong with me.

But I have come to that point that I know an insult when I hear one.  I'm not hurt - just angry!  I'm just not taking that kind of behavior from her.

Hehehehe...I guess I forgot the concept of "NC" (hard to do tho when you're in a family - although I realize what we are isn't a "family" - it's one person with servants).

[CZBZ]

It's still a SHOCK to be attacked for being considerate and kind! Once you get away from people like that, you kinda forget to keep your defenses on high alert. What's amazing though is that the longer we are AWAY from narcissistic relationships, the quicker we're able to SPOT our reactions because their behavior is so, hummm...what's the word? ABOMINABLE.

Maybe you don't do this but a mistake I make is that while I'm growing and maturing and learning, I assume the narcissist is doing likewise. Suddenly I'm reminded that my progress is MINE.

Imagine having a mother insult her own child OR bring up the past as if we're forever judged to be inadequate, defective and inept. Only a few weeks ago, my mother was blasting me with things I did in high school...LOL! Yea, it stunned me momentarily  and it completely gobsmacked my own daughter who witnessed mother's outburst. I didn't react in an aggressive manner, I just kinda took note of how her criticism made me feel. Then I reminded myself that I had stopped the terrible legacy of mothers attacking their daughters because it would be inconceivable to me (and my daughter) for me to behave that way.

I don't blame you for being upset...even angry. You did not deserve her mistreatment and whether or not she is defending an 'inner core of shame' or not, what she did was OFFENSIVE, not defensive.

I am getting hard-hearted, Foo. I really don't care about the narcissist's inner anything anymore. The way they treat people is disgusting and should never be excused because of some cockamamie idea that they are defending low self-esteem (Poor widdle folks).  Narcissists really and truly perceive themselves to be Superior and entitled to treat people like inferior servants.

Hugs,
CZ

[foofoogirliegirl]

I'm sure another thing my mom would say is that I'm "thin skinned".  LOL - if I had been thin skinned, I would have never made it to the ripe age of almost 50!  Gawd, I have the hide of an elephant!  One beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeg elephant.

I must admit that I'm curious to see what the payback is.  And, we all know it's coming.

Yea, it was easy to forget about her "ways" - we live 3,000 miles apart (thank God) and I can handle a 30-minute phone call with her (complete with her insults).

[eyes_up]

I totally agree with the above Collapse theory but the needle part I attribute to trigger. I can honestly say I have seen the needle and the ability for my mother to get through the balloon was impossible. BUT..get me tired, hungry and with out a whole lot of internal space and the needle works. That is how I experience the collapse.

Foo, as far as the jealousy goes...I was almost about to bring that up. I find it just isn't healthy for me to entertain..put myself in the path of some ones jealousy. That came up for me after I came back from my vacation. My mother clearly made comments that are due to her jealousy. I don't like it first because I want her to be a mother and not  my rival. I also don't like being the recipient of some ones contempt.  I though about this ever since and as in what is my next action. I found nothing I can do but stay away. Things were a lot better when I was feeling down and disempowered. But now since I am pretty darn happy, the needle is presented all the time. Like I said it gets stupid after a while. I no longer ask my mom to be my mommy and I don't even ask her to be a friend but what I do ask for is politeness and I will not accept anything other. Well, she isn't about to be polite because she is angry I now am no longer wobbling around like a 2 year old.

My experience such as what CZ said about the balloon being popped..if that does happen...it no longer even happens for days. Now it is down to an hour. It keeps getting lesser and lesser. But I am not over the disappointment that my mother as a mother and a person is so screwed up and weak. My feelings about that are not gone and I deal with them. But at least I am not try to change this reality just because it doesn't feel good and it does not stop me from loving life and people. My feelings about that are based on my illusion of mother being god or even just a maternal person rather than a destructive person. But she is human and her jealousy is understandable as is her contempt.

After reading your last response Foo, I completely understand the anger. Some times for me the anger is about just allowing myself to participate in the narcissist adventure. Subjecting myself to the insults and inquiries. Often I feel like saying ...Ok hurry up and be done with it. If it were possible I would have tapes of me reacting in the old pattern plug them into her VCR and let her talk back to the tube. It would would be less sweat off my brow.

A common respond to my mothers analysis is ... your ideas are very entertaining and possibly fit for a sit com but they don't seem to parallel my experience of self. This is what I say in my head and sometimes to her.
It is when my mothers words are no longer identified as a me that I step out of the pattern and continue to grow up and out of being her child. I am her offspring but I am no longer her child. So much more has gone into becoming me than her input.

I hope this helps get past the irritation. I have worked hard to develop methods of thiking to remain centered in the middle of old unhealthy  patterns. I am not done yet.

eyes

[CZBZ]

"She called up one night and told him I was a control freak (LOL!  Can we say, "PROJECTION"?!) and then she called another night and said, "She's trying to take my place!!!"  I just looked at Dad in disbelief and told him that was SICK.  Dad was standing there, a look of complete disbelief on his face, saying, "I've never seen her like this..." and I felt like saying, "Well, WELCOME TO MY WORLD!"~Foo

See what I mean? ABOMINABLE!!

Jealous of her own daughter??? I'm betting she isolated your father from everybody! And he probably thought that was a compliment. 


Hugs,
CZ

[foofoogirliegirl]

I'm pretty sure Dad didn't think it was a compliment.  But, I'm sure he is telling himself that she said something like that because she's sick, or in the hospital, or whatever.  And, that's the exact excuse she would use to explain away her bad behavior.  But, that is par for the course:  Mom always has 85 different reasons for why she behaved badly and it's never her fault.

I don't care if you're sick or in the hospital, you don't talk to people like that!

On the other hand, at least I know it's nothing personal against me - she treats everyone like dirt.

[foofoogirliegirl]

Eyes:  I agree.  I stopped long ago thinking that she was my friend or my mother and I stopped looking for her support or any kind of compassion long, long ago.  I don't expect anything out of her - except bad behavior.  But, yes, when I fly 3,000 miles, spend my money, and use my time to help a sick person, I do expect her to be (at the very least) polite.  Hahahaha...silly me, I should have known that was never, ever gonna happen.  Pigs will fly first.

And, you're right:  I have come to realize that the only thing I can do is to stay away from her.  NC - that is the only thing that will work.  Either way, I'll be in trouble:  either I'm around her and she continues her abuse or I'm won't talk to her and what a poor, widdle victim with an unloving child (and after all she's done for me too!!!  ROFL).

I remember when she started buying and collecting antique dolls.  I thought the hobby was weird, but what did I care?  That was between her and Dad.  Anyway, about a year later, she started making statements that the she bought the dolls "as an investment for you and Brian."  (Brian is my brother.)  Oh, that just so rubbed me the wrong way - she bought the dolls for HERSELF - because SHE WANTED TO.  I had no problem with that but I really resented her acting like she was being selfless by making an "investment" for me and my brother.  I also didn't like that because I didn't want to be made an abetor (an accomplist) in her nonesense. 

[eyes_up]

That is pretty funny about the dolls. My mother did the same thing when I was a child. I never liked dolls and I got them every birthday and Christmas. My big awakening was when I realized it was OK to not like dolls . Prior to that I was considered ungrateful when I didn't dance around the Christmas tree about the new doll. I can laugh now. It was she that loved dolls and it is certain that I was one of her dolls. I can not tell that story as a real bad story though. Although it did feel bad to never be the person she was talking to.

Boundaries work well with people like this. Boundaries with my mother means I say stop basically. I don't go dear eyed or surprised I just say enough, can it etc.I verbally discount and do not accept the verbal behavior. There is also not giving the emotional reaction which is what is being sought. Maybe you did this. I let things roll on by and know she hasn't got it in her to do any thing else. This is when she is on a wave. It comes and goes.

Some times I get sad because I really have healed...sounds funny but just the fact that I am no longer the person , the child I often grieve what is now in the past, who i was when I was victim. Then again most of the time I am over joyed that I am able to let it all go and get on with things. That I wrapped up a deal and now live mostly free of the torment. That is what 5 years in the couch as well as a determination to do more in life did for me.

The fantasy of the child is so great for my mother that she started a savings account for my half sister son...half sister by my father but of course. She never had a savings account for me nor my brother nor was she ever willing to help me out with college. The way I see it, if the age category is infant to 5 years of age ...good things come and once one is past those years the attraction is burned off. i told my mother I thought her preoccupation with other peoples children wasn't healthy when her own kids are being ignored. she went into trauma tears. But it is true , she still seeks her childhood through other peoples children the same age as she was when she was molested. I actually pity my mother. Her narcissism to what ever degree is more sad for me to see then anything but still I do the boundaries since I figure she acts on the level of age 4 or 17.

Unlike your mother, Foo, my mother acts covertly. Her insults are more hidden and undermining.I know the language well and only a few people have seen flat out raw abuse. I no longer get presented with raw abuse because something funny has happened since I grew up and even more so since therapy. She is very careful how she attacks. Your mom seems to be overt with her wordage. I would be tempted to take a towel and tie it around her mouth and tell her when she has something good to say I am all ears. Who needs the physical vibration of their voice boxes.

Geees I am so over narcs.

eyes

[foofoogirliegirl]

I think the only thing to do is invite my friends over for dinner on Sunday.  Cooking is good for the soul and I love to hear the laughter of my friends.

[CZBZ]

"I think the only thing to do is invite my friends over for dinner on Sunday.  Cooking is good for the soul and I love to hear the laughter of my friends."

Will ya promise to tell us all about it? I so miss your week-end encouragements to GET OUT of our heads and INTO our lives. We need to create good memories to counterbalance the bad and the only way to do that is to DO SOMETHING good for ourselves. Life goes on and happy times happen but not if we aren't making an effort to GIVE ourselves what we need.

This week-end, we're headed to an art show at the Senior Center. I'd like my nephew to see metal artworks created by people who love welding (like he does). Art can keep us in touch with our true selves and reignite a passion to create. I'll let ya know if my nephew died of boredom or not but at least I can offer him the experience, right?

Hugs,
CZ

[Lapin]

FooFoo, it is very nice to see you again.  I am so very sorry about what you have gone through with your mother.  There's nothing like N ingratitude to give a person a good kick in the face.  I remember all your old posts describing the struggles that you have had and how you put up with it for the sake of your father.  It is such a sad situation.  The "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more" sounds like a healthy attitude to have.  I wrote my own separate post about being N's doormat and that is certainly not healthy.  Self-preservation is important. 

It is interesting that when Ns age or get infirm how they handle the tables being turned when they become dependent on others.  You would think that they would start to mellow because they need people to do things for them.  But nope, looks like they have to continue being top dog. 

[foofoogirliegirl]

Lapin!  I hope you are doing well?

Well, CZCB, I ended up cancelling.  I thought I was up to it and I wasn't.  I ended up in bed, sleeping all weekend (can we say, "DEPRESSED"?); this is the second weekend I've done that.  I did manage to get my sorry arse out of bed and cook myself something healthy (if I keep going the way I was going, you would have to put a "WIDE LOAD" sticker on my bum and I'm not ready to do that).

I've had enough.  That will NOT be happening this weekend.  I plan on cleaning (I have totally bombed my cute little place and it's driving me nuts), maybe getting a manicure and pedicure.  There is a new Asian massage place in town that does foot massages (I don't know why they call them foot massages because they involve more than feet) for an hour for $20 (plus, a $5 tip) that is absolutely WONDERFUL.  There is also a lot of reflexology involved and you are like a limp noodle when you walk out of there.

Mom called twice on Sunday.  Thank gawd for answering machines!  I don't even know what we would have to talk about.  I could tell from her voice that she thinks everything is skippy go lucky...why shouldn't she?  Everything has been sweept under the rug in the past - she's always gotten off scott free and she's just assuming this is another one of those times.  HAH!  Double HAH!  HAH, HAH!

She reminds me of that old saying, "Don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's raining."  LMAO

[CZBZ]

""Don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's raining."" ~Foo

LMAO!! Be sure to wear rubber boots the next time you visit...and tie down yer skirt 'cuz I've heard tell that narcissists love blowing smoke up 'em.

It's all about our COLLUSION in maintaining their ILLUSION. Lordnose, I have my own hands full dealing with people who prefer Fantasy to Reality. When a girl finally digs her toes into terra firma and refuses to loft off into the ethers to protect someone else's DREAM WORLD so they don't hafta feel bad about themselves, that's when she knows her WORTH and values her own INTEGRITY.

Foo, to be honest, and you've known me for years now, I have a very hard time being rude or dismissive to anyone. Forum members have been talking our reluctance to be angry/rude on another thread and the truth HURTS...I'd rather suffer myself rather than cause someone else to suffer...It is not easy to figure out how to stand up for yourself without feeling guilty when your own mother refuses to take responsibility for herself.

If a mother is still hurting her children so she can protect her ILLUSIONS about herself, then what else can a child do but leave her to her fantasies and face reality? Why should you suffer for her sins??

I'm a good one to preach but in all honesty, I struggle just like yourself...it's excruciating for me to let people suffer through the MESS they made without any help from anyone but themselves. Especially when that person is a MOTHER because I have such deep compassion for what women have been through in our society. My compassion and understanding is my best friend AND my worst enemy. Knowing how to separate without crippling guilt (I know this isn't healthy!) is a process.

So you didn't do what you intended to do over the weekend? You can still honor yourself for feeling the way you do. We all get somewhat depressed when we're unable to CHANGE things that matter to us! And a relationship with an aging mother MATTERS!

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. " ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

Does this quote mean: Don't Be Silent? Speak up...express your feelings. Let 'em roll and THEN when you are finished conversing with your inner self, HAVE A PARTY?

Narcissistic mothers, in my un-expert opinion, can be more damaging to a child's self-esteem than narcissistic fathers. Fathers are distanced to some degree (or they were when gender roles kept him working outside the home). But a narcissistic mother has all the time she needs to make herself feel superior by defeating her children. It's a terrible thing, Foo...what you've been through ought never be minimized because if you do that, if you rationalize in your head without honoring your feelings, you WILL be depressed far longer than a couple of weekends.

You are a great person who deserves to be loved for your 'unconditional acceptance' of your mother. She won't tell you that, but plenty of other people will.


Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

Narcissistic mothers, in my un-expert opinion, can be more damaging to a child's self-esteem than narcissistic fathers. Fathers are distanced to some degree (or they were when gender roles kept him working outside the home). But a narcissistic mother has all the time she needs to make herself feel superior by defeating her children.

Very interesting for me that you would make that statement CZ, I have wondered why possibly I have not been quite as affected as others maybe it is because in my family of origin, my mother WAS the father.  My mother went to work and my grandmother (who lived with us) served in the role of mother; woke us up in the morning, made our breakfast and dinner, was there when we came home from school.  I remember my mother coming in the door and my grandmother would complain about us and my mother would say:  "Can I not be home for one minute before you start up with me about these kids?" Which of course is what I would hear echoed by my friends fathers.

[CZBZ]

It is a new way for me to look at things, Suzy. For so long, we have criticized absent fathers as being emotionally abusive, indifferent to their children and yea, of course there are abusive men. However, who spends the most time with the children? Even today, the mother is central to 'gazing' into her baby's eyes and mirroring the unconditional acceptance every human needs when they are vulnerable.

I have a lot more 'thinking' to do on this topic because it seems to me that we are barely scratching the surface of a topic like 'narcissistic mothers'. AND, I have hesitated researching abusive/narcissistic mothers because society has always blamed mothers for whatever ailed their children. The burden was on the mother's shoulders if her children had issues or defied social rules. It still is that way for the most part. Because psychologists have erroneously attributed mental illness (schizophrenia) to mothers, it's a touchy topic to bring up. Too many people, abusive men included, want to pass the buck to Mama.

To me, a great loss to our society has been the lack of extended family ties. In my opinion, the nuclear family is a bombshell waiting to explode! The more isolated American families have become, the less able children are to find positive role models and empathic adults to meet their emotional needs (even if both parents are capable of doing that). We move all over the country, breaking familial ties and even separating ourselves from 'communities'. The problem I see in this behavior is that children are stuck with two crappy parents and nowhere to turn. I believe with all my heart that just ONE interested and empathic adult can make a huge difference in a child's life. That might be the neighbor, or a teacher, or a youth group leader, church leaders, or anyone who takes the time to CARE about a child, validating their worth so they believe their lives are of value. I say this because our family moved all the time in order to further my spouse's career. It wasn't healthy for our children and it certainly wasn't healthy for me...I'm one of those touchy-feely connector-type women. I love being part of a stable community. Now that I'm divorced, I've rediscovered the great pleasure in maintaining close ties with family members. Even family members with 'issues'. Like myself. 

I dunno...it's a tough topic. Women have definitely been treated unfairly by the psychological community but at the same time, we can't turn a blind eye to female narcissism and pretend it doesn't exist!


Hugs,
CZ