Hola! Foo Here

[Jacintae]

I dnn't feel very confident to join in this thread - but I am so 'all over the place' this evening that I am going to try and gather together what's going on for me at the moment.

I came onto this site to try and recover from a relationship with an N that left me shattered and at a low depth of despair. With all the help and information I had begun to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Foo - your thread showed me something else. Something I find extremely difficult to face. CZ - your last responses very eloquently summarises my dilemma.

My Mother is an N. Well, this site has tied up a lot of loose ends for me. It's such a long complicated story and it has lasted a lifetime. This site is not about child abuse so maybe it's not the place to go into this. But it still gives me nightmares when I even begin to think about it all. She was a nasty, vicious, child batterer at home. And yet she was a much respected senior nurse in public. She never, ever gave a da*n for her children - we were just small people that she kicked and beat - she beat me unconscious in a rage once when I was five years old because I was late coming home from school. I was so injured that I had to miss a week at school to recover.

But this is not the point of my post. I have five siblings - we are all very close in age, in fact for a short time we were all teenagers together. History is history and we are all trying to deal with adult life as best as we can and we have all had difficulty.

My Mother is the worst kind of mother that I could ever imagine - well, you all know what an N is like. She can't hit us anymore but she is still in control. I don't live near her but whenever there are rows in the family at home, I know in my heart that she is the poisonous cause of the whole thing. She is a liar without any regard for anyone or the consequences that it will bring to anyone. Quite recently I was at home with her. I went off to see my sister. In the meantime she had a row with my brother in her home - it was a bad one. My brother left her house and went to his home. She phoned his wife and told her that I had come home and when I saw the distress that my Mother was in that I made an official police complaint that she had been assaulted. I knew nothing about this whatsoever. When my Mother told me of the row, I thought it was completely my Mother's fault. To this day, no matter how I pretest, my brother and his family and indeed all my family still believe that I made that police complaint that night. I have protested that it was completely untrue - but my Mother will never admit that she lied and so there is still unease between my brother and I. That's what my Mother is capable of. She tells the most damaging of lies - she has completely rewritten history - I had a foster brother who was removed from our home when he was a child due to horrifiic physical abuse. I was very little at the time but I remember wishing that they would take me too.

She left my Father - who was not the worst of men but a disasterous father, when I was thirteen. I started work that year and eveything I earned went straight to her. My little brothers were just around 7 and 8 and my heart breaks sometimes now when I realise how much they suffered with her. She has spent the rest of her life blaming us for all she suffered with my dad and it was because we tied her down that she had to put up with a lifetime of pain and agony. But enough of all this - she is just an N through and through.

So what to do now?

She is a dangerous, dishonest, malignant woman - who would lie about me at the drop of a hat. My married sister who has four children and lives near her, disowned my Mother for years. My Mother then insisted that my sister had psych problems and my sister was then 'frozen out' by the rest of the family in Ireland. Since my Mother is getting frailer with age, that sister has buired her misgivings and dislike of my Mother and calls into her every day to make sure that she is OK. I absolutely adore my sister's kids and would to anything to remain in contact with them and I don't want to rock the boat.

And then there's my mother herself. Her own family of origin were callous and cruel and beyond any kind of humanity. She never really had a chance to develop any kind of humanity herself. I would say that she had never been hugged in her life by her parents and she too, as a child, was treated as a 'nothing'. I believe that she had to become like a devious little rat to survive. She had fifteen siblings and was never shown anything but brutality herself as a child. Small wonder that she ended up so damaged.
How could she be any different?

I have read your post re Harry Harlow, CZ and I agree with this. Moreover- I agree with Jonh Bowlby who basically suggests that the 'attachment bond' that a child forms with it's Mother is often indicitive of how that child will form interpersonal bonds into adulthood. I believe that's where it ended for my Mother. Fullstop.

And yet it's so often true that tough times can make children very resilient.

There is a theory that overrides both Harlow and Blowlby - that of 'earned security'. (I have tried to google this for a reference but cab't find anything suitable but I can, if necessary, look it up better and find more informatin on this). It is not without controversy but I happen to believe it. It say that no matter what deprivation a child might suffer and no matter how it is lacking in Mother bonding and love that this can be repaired in later life. If one meets with kindness and understanding as one grows older that early damage can be repaired and a child can grow and relearn how good relationships are formed. I believe this. My Mothere never had the opportunity to learn what I have learned. I met an awful lot of very kind and loving people in my life. This site is just one example of the wonderful people who have crossed my path and who have taken the time and the effort to help me out of pure generosity. No matter what - one can come to realise the goodness of people in this world.

 
So I am going to leave things as they are with her at the moment.  My mother has a plentiful NS - she is the heroic woman who, against all the odds singlehandedly reared a few MDs and the like and that still counts for a lot in the small town that I come from . My sister was the very first female GP in our town and we have all done well - materially - so Mother sits on her throne basking in all the glory ( while we are all in support groups to find people who love us enough to teach us how to live and in a way 'reparent us'- but that's OK and we are all very grateful.)

I may seem like a coward - but it's too late for her. With all her conniving and keeping in control - I believe she has not had one day's true happiness in her whole life. What a sad wasted life she had. And yet she gave life to me. Her genes are my genes. And I know how things really are. I can work for my own growth with kind people like all you on here. This is an opportunity that she never had - fate dealt her a pretty rough deal. SO I think i will continue to care for her as best as I can and thank God that I have had a much better life than she ever had.

Sorry that this is so long and wandering - but it has helped me find peace to write it all

Love to all
Jacintae xxx

[CZBZ]

(((Jacintae)))

Of course this board includes topics like child abuse...we talk about absolutely anything on this board. Most people kinda 'sneak up' on the truth anyway...and talking about our parents makes most people feel at least a little bit guilty. If we didn't hesitate revealing family secrets, we might need to take a NPD test ourselves. The fact that we BOND to our parents and have a sense of gratitude towards them for giving us life and at least changing our diapers once in awhile, speaks to our resiliency (and normalcy), don't you think?

I recently read "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?" and recall the author saying that when a woman partners with a narcissist, she was more likely to have a narcissistic mother than father. That shocked me and perhaps I'll take time to find a direct quote because I don't want to misinterpret the author's intentions. I think we should all examine our relationships with our mothers because even if they were not clinical narcissists, it's fairly likely they had narcissistic traits of some kind. Any society that devalues the female sex will negatively impact the entire society.

I'd love to read more about "earned security". I believe that people are capable of experiencing the kind of respect and love they did not get as children if they are able to connect to a trustworthy and supportive network of friends (and family). The important thing is being willing to try. To let people love us. Exactly as we are.

There are a lot of amazing people in this world, Jacintae. Some of those amazing people lived through nightmarish childhoods and perhaps, one choice at a time, changed their lives. We can give ourselves what our parents were unable or unwilling to give us...but first things first: we gotta know who to trust and who not to. I  believe a lot of child abuse survivors tend to trust the 'wrong' people. We need to learn how to discern the truly loving people from those who only appear to be so. We might not recognize real gold from all that 'glitters'.

Thank you for your post... 

Loves,
CZ

[foofoogirliegirl]

Shoot, CZCB, I just wrote something and it disappeared!  Dam!

[foofoogirliegirl]

Well, Jacintae, that was the light bulb moment for me.  I finally sat myself down and asked myself why I was dating such nasty guys.  I did alot of reading and reasearch and then I realized (!) that I HAD BEEN LITERALLY DATING MY MOM MY WHOLE LIFE (ouch!).  I was raised to believe that kind of nasty behavior was NORMAL (oh, I am so laughing over that one right now).  My mom raised me to believe that my wants, needs, opinions, beliefs, etc., didn't matter - the only ones that mattered were her's.  I was raised to believe that love was conditional, full of strings - that you HAD to do WHATVER the other person wanted...and even then, love wasn't necessarily returned.   I was raised to believe I had to knock myself out and walk on egg shells 24/7, that I was responsible for her moods and needs (can you imagine?  A child is responsible for an adult's needs????).  I was raised to believe that what I wanted didn't matter - that my instincts weren't right.  Shoot, I had that hammered and literally belted into me.  I was raised to expect NOTHING, well, actually less than nothing.  That I deserved NOTHING.

Shoot, I did the only thing left for a kid to do (other than running away) - I became the golden child and did everything she wanted.  As in maybe if I were the golden child, there would be no need for her to go all nasty on me.  Yea, and that one didn't work either.

I was raised to believe that throwing fits when you don't get your own way and pouting was something normal that adults do.

All her insecurities and problems?  Laid at my childlike feet.

It was a good thing when I figured out how it all tied in together - dating nasty guys and having a nasty mom.  Once I figured that out, it was a big step toward healing.

As for her parents, I no longer care.  I no longer care what my mom went through or didn't go through - I mean, look what I went through.  And, I didn't turn out to be a swirling vortex of evil.

Oh, and you are not alone:  she tells me all the time that I need to go to a shrink!!!  That is the pot calling the kettle black.

The only thing that works is NC.  I didn't want to cut her off because of my father, but now I just no longer care.  I am NOT going to be treated that way anymore.  Period.

[Lapin]

(((Jacintae)))


I recently read "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?" and recall the author saying that when a woman partners with a narcissist, she was more likely to have a narcissistic mother than father. That shocked me and perhaps I'll take time to find a direct quote because I don't want to misinterpret the author's intentions. I think we should all examine our relationships with our mothers because even if they were not clinical narcissists, it's fairly likely they had narcissistic traits of some kind. Any society that devalues the female sex will negatively impact the entire society.

I'd love to read more about "earned security". I believe that people are capable of experiencing the kind of respect and love they did not get as children if they are able to connect to a trustworthy and supportive network of friends (and family). The important thing is being willing to try. To let people love us. Exactly as we are.

Interesting that you brought this up, CZ.  My therapist wants to explore my relationship with my mother.  I went down this road with my last therapist so I think I already understand how I was affected and how they influenced me to end up with a Narc.  No question, my mother did a number to my head regarding self-esteem which led me to someone who looked down on me.  I thought that was OK, that was normal and that I deserved that.  But somethng else I realized recently.  Comparing myself to the way some friends made their choices for a spouse and even the way my teenage daughter thinks about men.  I settled.  I just figured this was the best I could do.  Some parents tell their kids that they can be anything that they try to be, that they should get out there and reach for the moon and try as hard as you can.  My mother told me, don't reach for the moon.  Don't settle for dirt either, but don't reach for the stars, that I should "know my place and know my lot in life," and accept it.  Some of my friends looked for a mate who would be good enough for them.  I worried would I be good enough for someone else. 

[SusyP14]

Foo, thank you for connecting the dots.  When one person gets 'it', it paves the way for others to have the light bulb turn on.

Jacintae, my heart breaks for what you have endured, yet you here you are strong and eloquent, opening your heart and telling us your story.  My mother was not that toxic, vicious or disturbed.  Just supremely self involved and lacking in any clear boundaries.  Regardless, this is obviously not a competition on who had the worst childhood.  That is a contest that none of us wants to win.  I remain in awe at people's whose spirits were so traumatised, yet their lights can not be extinguished.

[SydneyFireworks]

I can relate to so much of what all of you are saying about your relationships with narcissistic mothers, in spite of my mother not being one herself.  My mother is a wimp, my father’s enabler – and although she is by no means stupid, she is vacuous.  Ever since I can remember she’s been far more interested in how pretty or otherwise a TV newsreader’s blouse is, what Mrs. Next-Door is planting in her garden or who’s going to be on “Dancing with the Stars”.  At the same time she is a very critical woman – but only at the level of criticizing the newsreader’s blouse, complaining that this celebrity shouldn’t have been chosen for the dancing show… and so on.

She smacked me often when I was a child – but she didn’t beat me.  She didn’t fly into any rages, but I could tell she was constantly cross with me for not being pretty enough, being too skinny, and not being clever enough (in spite of the fact that I passed the 11+ grammar school entrance exam with flying colours).  Actually I don’t remember her ever telling me I was “good” at anything.  And I don’t remember her ever hugging me or telling me she loved me.

I am convinced my father has Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, which doesn’t involve washing his hands a hundred times a day, or stirring his tea fifty times in a clockwise direction etc., but does involve him living his life entirely by rules.  His rules.  Morning coffee at 11am (not five to, or five past).  Dinner on the table at 7.15 sharp.  Etc.  He keeps books of records – must have at least 20 of them, each with a different role.  Car log book, electricity meter readings, maximum and minimum temps for the day, telephone calls.  You name it, he keeps a record of it. 

Another component of OCPD is the absence of lying.  Dad is so honest he will spend ten pence (or whatever it is these days) to phone the electricity company to tell them they charged him four pence too little on the bill!

And mum ran the household (and still does) with him entirely in mind, and my brother and me entirely out of mind, except in as much as it was better if brother and I were in bed before dad came home from work, lest we upset him by not doing or saying exactly the right thing at exactly the right time.

So, essentially, dad was emotionally and physically unavailable to us kids (and never hugged us or said he loved us), and mum catered to his every whim, at our expense.

When I grandly announced at the ripe old age of 17 that I was leaving home and going to live in London, neither of them turned a hair or made any attempt to stop me.  And, for the four years that I lived in London before emigrating to Australia, they didn’t come and visit me once.  Dad worked in London every day, and they lived just 40 minutes out of town.  I, on the other hand, dutifully returned home for the weekend every six weeks or so.  I don’t think either of them really noticed.

So… different background to you guys, but same end result.  I always went for “bad boys” – the good-looking, charming guys who played the field, had women falling all over them and who enjoyed all the attention they could get.  Looking back, most if not all of them were probably fairly high on the N-continuum.  They were most certainly nothing like either my mother or my father.

I think what I was trying to do was prove to both of them (but especially my mother) that I was pretty enough and smart enough to tame and keep these charmers and live happily ever after.  It was doomed to fail of course and the upshot is that I have spent far more of my adult years with no Significant Other than with one.

And by and large, I’ve been living happily ever after!  I will never be good enough for my parents, but I’m good enough for me and for my friends.  And that’s good enough.

Hugs
Syd

[Lapin]

My mother too, Syd, was rigid and inflexible.  I don't think she had OCPD or so many rules, but there were all these quirks.  Don't travel on a Monday, certain chores had to be done by a certain time, otherwise it was too late to do them.  Yes, it affected me as well and contributed to my own nuttiness. 

[Jacintae]

Well, Jacintae, that was the light bulb moment for me.  I finally sat myself down and asked myself why I was dating such nasty guys.  I did alot of reading and reasearch and then I realized (!) that I HAD BEEN LITERALLY DATING MY MOM MY WHOLE LIFE (ouch!).  from Foo.

Hi Foo and everyone.

Thanks for all the posts which I found so very helpful.

I am writing this to clarify things in my own mind as well today because I still get things a bit tangled up.

This site is primarily about N's and the damage and destruction they do in relationships. I came in here first to try and verbalise the devaluation and despair I felt following and adult relationship with an N. I felt I was mad and crazy and was desparate to find out what was wrong with me. CZ pointed out to me very early on that it was important that I stop blaming myself for this destructive relationship. That was the most helpful piece of advice I ever got in my life and I was able to change my prospective on the whole situation and that was the beginning for me. I realise now from all I have read on this board that trying to have a relationship with an N is like trying to turn back the ocean. But I do think that, while I still don't blame myself for that adult N's behaviour, that because I had an N parent, I may have been more vulnerable than normal to being attracted to an adult N and trying to hard to make that relationship work.

Before I came here I read a book by Howard M Halpern called 'addicted to love' and I found it a very helpful book - particularly his explanation  of the theory of the potential effect on adult relationships  of  'Attachment hunger'

Consider this very brief ( extremely) summary of a theory of development of Nism from Attachment Hunger by Gazley

The way that Personality Disorders develop, such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, is through the process of individuation. When a child is born they are completely egocentric, which means that they do not recognize that other people are anything other than a part of themselves. This is nature's way of allowing a baby to feel safe although in reality they are totally helpless and vulnerable.

At one and a half a child develops permanence of objects. This means that if you hide some keys that a child is playing with "out of sight is out of mind" before this age. Now a child realizes that things are separate and permanent. This throws the child into the first existential anxiety, fear of abandonment, abandonment depression, fear of dying, fear of death, separation anxiety, which all leads to attachment hunger. A child desperately needs reassurance by both parents and a safe world order. If parents and the world are secure then the child feels safer.

If parents abandon the child he will stay in this psychological state of neediness and if parents or the world spoil them then the child does not get the idea that other people are real people and remain semi-objects. There are numerous kinds of personality disorders, but they all share this development with only a few differences. Any kind of abandonment or abuse makes the development less healthy.

The definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder listed in the DSM4, which is the diagnosis bible of psychiatry is as follows. "A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by 5 (or more) of the following:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
Believes that he or she is 'special' and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
Requires excessive admiration
Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
Is interpersonally exploitive, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and need of others.
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes."
All personality disorders, like most other things, are best viewed on a continuum. There are mild, moderate, and severe cases. In moderate to severe, the hallmark of the disorder is that they see other people as objects and not live people. Therefore, you can't really have a friendship with them. It is a difficult problem to fix because of the early developmental origin of the problem and usually motivation is limited. A person suffering with personality disorders often needs to be seen for years.

© 2004 Jef Gazley, M.S., LMFT, DCC

In his book, Halpern suggests that this abondment hunger does not always lead to Nism.

In his chapter entitled ‘Return of a memory’ and referring to an adult (with abandonment hunger through childhood neglect as mentioned by above) love relationship that is wrong for us but that we cannot end, even though it is not good for us, he says

‘ In order to understand your Attachment Hunger’ it is essential that you realise that if is not a new experience . It is not occurring for the first time in the current relationship. It is the return of a memory. It is an emotional reminiscence of a much earlier time. Although the actual details of the memory may be largely forgotten the FEELINGS are as alive and intense now as, when they are triggered into your awareness by the loss or anticipated loss of an important connection, as they were when you originally felt them. And you originally felt them in the first few months and years of your life. What this means is that when you are ruled by Attachment Hunger, your state of mind is, in many ways, a re-experiencing of your state you were in as an infant or toddler. The qualities of this experience are those of a needy vulnerable being with limited perspective, underdeveloped judgement, little capacity for rational thought, and no will power. And you need not have had a particularly traumatic or deprived childhood to have known these feelings of primitive dependency. They are part of everyone’s legacy. They are deposits in everyone’s memory banks. So when these Attachment Hunger states take over, your thinking and judgment are distorted and ruled by the intense emotions of a time when you were helpless.’

That’s just about how it was with me and my adult N.

Love to all

Jacintae xxx

[skater]

Thanks for naming this Jacintae - 'attachment hunger' is the perfect way to describe all my relationships to this date. As I was reading Sydney's description of her upbringing and saw "They were most certainly nothing like either my mother or my father" I thought - no, they WERE, they denied you real love. Then to see Jacintae explain it that way was perfect. We do play these scenarios out over and over because they are what is comfortable and 'normal' to us. For me this is why therapy is key. It's helping me to recognize what is truly 'normal' and also to challenge what I find myself drawn to.

I'm not convinced my dad was an N (although my therapist seems to think so). He is an alcoholic, and has been my whole life (which has many parallels to Nism) but I'm not sure if he is one. My mom is a classic codependent. My dad was mostly absent from my childhood. I don't really have many memories of him being there. Sure he was physically I guess, but not emotionally. He doesn't know who I am at all. I can only recall a handful of times he's said "I love you". There were lots of secrets in my family too - my mom would allow me to do stuff but I couldn't tell my dad - so I know his anger or 'disappointment' scared my mom on some level. At my wedding I explicitly asked my dad not to mention my schooling in his speech (I was a bit of flake for years about university, going to 4 different schools and changing my major each time). Of course, that was pretty much the only thing he talked about. On my birthday last year he managed to toast me and insult me all at once. In fact, he complimented my N for putting up with me - all the while knowing we were having extreme difficulties. He's an ass but I'm not sure if he's an N. But as Jacintae pointed out the patterns were definitely created for me. I'm comfortable with an "I love you/Go away" pattern, and I'm used to doing everything myself. Classic set up for an N.

[eyes_up]

It took me a while to understand and connect the treatment of that narcissist to the treatment of my mother. But from  the very beginnings of therapy which I went to because the narc was always pointing at me being the problem. I look back now and say, YES I was the problem. The problem is that I was with a narcissist and not a healthy person. I claim that as my problem and issue to deal with.

About 2 Years into thera[y, delving into mother issues of emotional abuse I was fully able to realize the correlation , the connection , the cross over. So the process didn't end by getting rid of the Narc. That was the beginning of the process. That was simply saying I don't intend to heal by trying to figure out what is right for the narcissist or how I can make it work. Rather , How do I make me work for me.
How do I get healthy when I never got the right nutrients in the past, how do I feed myself properly with out going to the same equation to solve . Which is saying how do I stop investing my energies into abusive people, narcissistic people because they of the sameness to my mother .

The only thing I wished I had done, and didn't do ,is to keep a journal of how it progressed. That way I could share exactly what was worked on and perhaps how it was done.

Definitely self love and self worth were a good portion but also undoing all the negative stuff that I was holding as facts, experiential facts. I had to deal with a lot of put downs that I basically accepted. I learned what is not acceptable behavior  and what isn't even the truth about my character. I got to down load decades of verbal abuse, unplugged my connection to it and uploaded my birth rights and all kinds of groovy things about me as a human. It was all such a relief and I no longer felt as though I was crazy.

Peace,

eyes

[CZBZ]

Thank you, Jacintae! 

I'd like to start a new thread about Attachment and add your messages to that thread if you're comfortable with me doing that. One of the books I've read about attachment theory was written by Robert Karen. It's a huge book and I basically understood about 25% of it, though I 'got' the main gist of attachment theory when it reflected my personal experience as a mama. Before I move to another thread though, I'd like to add what the psychiatrist and psychologist working with my nephew told us. They said that even though my nephew has 'attachment problems' because of his early childhood, we had plenty of time to work with him to make new 'connections' in his brain and teach him how to trust people to be there for him.

My nephew moved in with me when he was 5. He is now 18. It's been a bumpy road but I sincerely believe that people's brains are not set-in-concrete because of childhood deprivation. There is a lot an informed adult can do to help them restructure faulty beliefs about themselves and others. I'll post a bit more about that, though I do not claim to be an expert on attachment theory. I always love learning though and am ever-so-grateful to members who bring new information to the forum. 

We learn together.

Recovery is much more enjoyable that way. 


Love,
CZ

[Jacintae]

Hi

It has been a great help to me today to go through all this stuff so thanks for listening. And a separate thread for these posts is a great idea.

There is a huge amount of new research coming out in the UK with regard to 'deprivation' and development of children. Sadly this is the result of the fall of the Ceaucescru regime in Romania. His regime had encouraged policies that resulted in many children being placed in orphanages in conditions ranging from poor to appalling. Post Ceaucescru, many of these children were brought to the the UK for adoption, giving researchers much opportunity to do ongoing longitudinal research in this area.

There is a cases, not Romanian, that is mentioned in all modern psychology textbooks in the UK and here is a very basic summary - although there is a huge amount of additional material on the net.

The Koluchova Twins. (looking good for your nephew, CZ  )

http://www.aqabpsychology.co.uk/?q=node/27

Love to all
Jacintae

[SydneyFireworks]

As I was reading Sydney's description of her upbringing and saw "They were most certainly nothing like either my mother or my father" I thought - no, they WERE, they denied you real love.

~skater

Hi Skater - you're right, they did deny me real love.  However, the conscious part of my brain didn't know that when I met them.  I always chose popular, good-looking, outgoing, charismatic guys who gave no initial clues (to someone who then knew nothing about pathological disorders LOL) that they were incapable of reciprocity, intimacy or empathy.  They looked for all the world like they had those characteristics in spades.

Or perhaps the sub-conscious part of my brain DID know they would deny me real love, which would thereby result in 'situation normal'.   

I'm so glad my mating hormones have disappeared without trace!! 

Hugs
Syd