Sexuality with narcissism and a Wife's Revelations
From: flower (Original Message) Sent: 1/10/2006 7:27 PM Dear All,
If there is one trait that I know about those who have NPD, other than their severe self-entitlement, it is their bizarre sexuality. For them, though, it is not bizarre. We are the ones who aren't with it and to those "like-minded" people, we are referred to as "vanilla."
Vanilla? I still have problems with that one. Although I haven't discovered a dictionary to tackle that one, vanilla is straight or spiceless sex. And I ask, "Spiceless according to who?"
This bizarre sexuality ranges frome excessive porn viewing, masterbating, fetishes, paraphilias and bdsm (bondage, discipline sado-maschosism). This type of sex isn't just boudouir wear for those romantic moments between the sheets or other than the missionary position. It has to do more with pain, humiliation and objectification of the narcissist's partner, usually under false pretenses.
If certain sexual styles of narcissists that are known only to previous partners and spouses and kept in denial like a forbidden family secret, then it paves the way for future targets to be abused. By speaking out about this, I hope that it will prevent others from being physically and psychologically harmed; or at least others know, if they went beyond their boundaries by trying to please, it wasn't their fault.
As I related before, if it feels wrong, it probably is.
And here is one woman's story, which is no longer available on the net, so I am posting it in its entirety below:
Love, Flower
* * *
A wife's story:
There ABSOLUTELY is a connection between narcissism and bondage, S & M, or as my husband put it, Dominance and Submission. My husband, after 20 years of a rather healthy, normal sex life started in with this stuff and put the pressure on me saying that I should submit to all sorts of what I consider indignities such as hitting, whipping, humiliation role play, etc., the list goes on, and if I did not do this, that meant that I did not love him.
After 20 years of marriage, 3 beautiful children, all the ups and downs of life, through financial hard times and good, family illnesses and death, I did not lOVE him if I didn't let him smack me around. OK. I'm buying that, are you? I am in the process of divorce, and as these things go with the narcissistic personality disordered, it is a virtual nightmare.
Sometimes I think that Dr. Vaknin's book, Malignant Self-love, is actually my husband's biography. And there is a section in the book that deals with the sado-masochistic characteristics of the narcissist in both sexual and non-sexual matters. My husband during this time also spoke of people who are heavy duty into sado-masochistic sex as being what he termed, "life-stylers." These people actually live this way in the daylight hours outside of the bedroom.
In other words, one is the submissive, and the dominant partner of the two dictates the rules. The submissive has to do ANYTHING the dominant requests, and this includes signing over the handling of the finances, ruling over what job the person chooses, whether a person should stay in a job or quit, just in general signing over their whole life to the dominant, as this is, as my husband put it, "a sign of total love and total trust." We are not talking about a kind of, "well we've been married for 20 years and let's do something kinky tonight." We are talking about the total control over another human being IN and OUT of the bedroom. In this case, the sexual orientation is most definitely an expression of what is going on in their minds outside of the bedroom, or, in matters OTHER than sex.
I do not believe for one minute that your husband used this as an "excuse" to devastate or devalue you. I am sure he has done that in other ways. Sex pressure is not the only way to totally destroy another human being. They are verbal abusers as I am sure you know, and they will resort to all sorts of techniques such as blaming, projectionism, gaslighting, fear tactics, cruel criticism, never answering a question directly (vague, obscure responses) and the worst of all, simply not answering, and in general what is referred to as "crazy-making."
My husband went into SaM chatrooms, picked up women there and had affairs with them. He is currently living with one of these women, and he has made her move, and also leave a pretty decent position in a rather large well known company in Manhattan. As we go through the divorce process, he has been nothing less than sadistic, but because of his pathological lying, he is digging a giant hole for himself and setting himself up for one glorious masochistic failure. He could end this tomorrow if he would settle out of court and give me what is rightfully mine. But he ENJOYS this sado-masochistic dance.
It is obvious, and I have proof which has yet to be presented in court, that he is using this woman to launder and hide money, and it is absolutely mind-boggling to me that she will do whatever he tells her. He has absolute total control over her life, so I guess he has reached Nirvana now, and will never have to worry about needing Viagra. I don't know if EVERY narcissist has sado masochistic sexual leanings, but in this case, and it sounds like in yours, that their sadistic masochistic behaviour is manifesting itself through sexual expression.
I am sorry, but you will never convince me otherwise having lived through it. I have to say, that after reading your posting, my teeth almost fell out of my mouth. I just had to respond. You are not alone, and I absolutely believe that there is a connection. Further, my husband has been diagnosed by professional people as being a classic textbook NPD case.
We are also talking about a man that owns a tape cassette series on the manipulative strategies of Atilla the Hun, (I know, you are probably laughing right now, but I am NOT kidding you) boasts about being the proud owner of a very old leather-bound (if you'll pardon the pun) edition of the Marquis deSade, and has probably committed to memory most of Machiavelli's The Prince. These are his heroes. Not Gandhi, or Mother Theresa, or Albert Schweitzer but Atilla, Machiavelli and the good old Marquis. If your husband was searching the World Wide Web looking for sites on this subject - he is definitely into this and did not simply use this to get rid of you. It is an intrinsic part of the whole persona. I'm not saying that it was not just "one more thing."
But apart from you, the sexual expression is just another outlet for a very sick mind. There are those who would argue that SaM is fun and perfectly normal between two consenting adults. I say fine. But there is not even a remote connection to love. And you are most certainly not off base in wondering if there is a connection between narcissism and sado-masochistic sexual expression.
* * *
From: PracticalJude Sent: 1/11/2006 3:26 AM It has to do more with pain, humiliation and objectification of the narcissist's partner, usually under false pretenses.
This is it flower. Simply put, this is it. This is also one of the most difficult things for me to talk about. No, I was not forced to endure physical pain, nor was I "made" to do things that I didn't want to. Yet, there was always the underlying message that I was "so wrong." Feeling like we were making love and having what I thought was the "best sex" at the same time was "so wrong" and there was "so much I was missing" created so much doubt and I felt so very messed up. A "messed up" I may never recover from.
It was finding his picture collection, his movie collection (of himself with different women), his penis pictures via internet, his emails, his phone sex log, and hearing his stories (once caught) that he not only expected women to travel to him for sex, "he demanded it" that made me ill. Hearing that he signed sexual encounter emails, "love" because "that's what they wanted to hear" that made me ill. Eventually, watching him laugh during rape scenes in movies that made me ill (and scared the hell out of me). What I had to come to was this...I was just another object...and this one hurts right down to the toes.
How did I know that it would be the hardest thing for me to accept? By the way that I fished around for him to tell me it was "different" between us. Oh...he did tell me that it was, followed with "you'll never believe me so why should I bother." He was right - even though I wanted him to fill my heart with the words...once you know you are with a man who totally objectifies women....there is no turning back.
Thanks for bringing this up. Besides the anger stories I have told about the lies and deception associated with obtaining sexual supply...(and the morbid psychosis and woman hate this man had)...I haven't talked much about that big gaping wound that may never heal.
It seemed "so right" for so many years. Now, I can sense a N quite quickly, however how will I ever trust "making love" again? I guess for now, I just don't want to.
Thanks,
Jude
From: Cornfield10 Sent: 1/11/2006 4:00 AM Think back for a minute to the days when sex was a dirty word and wasn't discussed and people pretended it didn't exist. And they look embarrassed when pregnant. Think back to husband's grandmother's days when she dressed and undressed in a closet and declared that her husband never saw her with her clothes off in the light.
Remember that women were submissive servants and had no rights except to obey their husbands. Men didn't need to learn to love their wifes because they owned them. Sort of like an old pair of shoes that are tromped on all day and thrown under a chair at night to let the smell dissipate. The marriage was arranged between the fathers at age 15 or 16 in husband's German culture. No wonder they thought sex was dirty. It probably was!
Cornfield
From: Cornfield10 Sent: 1/11/2006 4:06 AM Being on the farm all my adult life, I would identify such behavior as animalistic. We did not teach our children that the boar was in love with the sow when they encountered mating in the barn. They saw the aggression and the submission, but sometimes the female animal would fight off the male, and they noticed that as well. I trust that I taught them that there is supposed to be a difference between animals and people when it comes to such matters. Cornfield
From: Rox24201 Sent: 1/11/2006 4:05 PM There was a time just a few short years ago (which feel more like light years now) where I felt like a very sexy woman. I was a sexual being.
As Jude has mentioned as well, this is something I don't know if I'll ever recover from after my N relationship.
It almost feels like a cruel joke on God's part as far as being in my mid forties and should therefore be at my sexual peak as a female. I always thought it was funny for males to reach their sexual peak at 19 yrs of age.
I can truly see myself being satisfied with a platonic companionship over opening myself up to another potentially heartbreaking intimate relationship. Even when taking all N's out of the equation, it feels to me that sexual views in general are off balanced when it comes to the sexual emotional needs of most females. When I think back all the way to my teen years, girls were damned if they did or didn't, there was never any winning for us.
I am often disgusted at how so many are able to compartmentalize(sp?) sex in general, some women included. I guess it's also why I have such a difficult time wrapping my mind around the excessive masturbation and viewing of porn that often goes along with the N world.
Honestly, without having sex in my life for a while now, I'm not so sure if I actually miss it!*&#???? I sometimes wonder if I am missing out, but these things can not be rushed.
Love,
Rox
From: flower Sent: 1/11/2006 7:15 PM ((Practical Jude))
I really do understand how difficult this must be for you to talk about and I appreciate your courage to be able to post about what you feel you can discuss without being seriously triggered or feeling like you want to vomit.
Similiarily, I wasn't coherced into anything, but I was being emotionally and under "false pretenses" pushed into something that I felt wasn't right, namely this D & S thing, which I felt was weird to begin with and I felt could esculate into S & M with his drinking. Likewise, I also felt that I wasn't sophisicated enough to be able to understand why this D & S thing was so wonderful. It is amazing how "messed up" they can make us feel. I just think it is going to take time and distance away to get over it all. You will be okay.
Don't get me started on the porn. What shocked me the most was this maN was not just into naked women poses, but he posted anonymously on the net, "Seeing women helpless makes me hard." How awful is that?
No, you can't turn back. Once they know you know and they feel they are being judged, they look at you differently and they no longer make the effort to keep up their appearance of loving you.
Jude, the wound heals, it did for me, but the fading scars are there. I don't think I will ever be the same. I stopped looking at the world through rose-colored glasses and more than ever, trust as to be earned, more than relying on someone's occupation or say so.
Just trust your intuition, Jude.
((HUG)) Flower
From: mardaw Sent: 1/11/2006 8:43 PM Dear Flower,
I have had 2 glasses of very "good" wine and looked at this in an objective way...
My thoughts...Agree with him....Let him give "you" power over the finances....and...The sex life, and "everything"... I mean .."Hell"... The question is after all.."WHO" gets all the power, you count and have a vote...my vote is..."YOU"...... So ...let him relinquish his "ass'ests" to you...and YOU can accept them promptly....why be "shy"...After all...somebody needs to take control as he is implying...I think "you" are the "best" candidate for that position....Let "him" provide "opposite" points of view..."since he brought it up"..... I think "you" should go ahead and whip his azz..and take "claim" to all of his money and ass"ets...after all it is his "idea"....Let "him" find his own back up....hand cuff the sucker and whip his azzz...and take all his money in the process.....I "agree' with him....somebody needs to be in charge.. I think "YOU' should be that person........
GO FOR IT......
Love and hugs,
Marcia
From: flower Sent: 1/14/2006 12:56 PM Mardaw,
I am not sure I follow you here, as the story wasn't mine. I was never married to a narcissist, an azzhole at times, but not a N. The story I posted was a woman's story that was on the web, no longer there. I had printed it out about four years ago. when I was researching narcissistic traits.
As far as, "hand cuff the sucker and whip his azz, LOL, clubs in Montreal and New York City actually have men who frequent these clubs to pay to see those shows or actually pay to have this done to them because they are unable get a woman to do this. Strange World!
Hug, Flower
From: Rustilo1 Sent: 1/14/2006 4:02 PM I agree with cornfield. They are animalistic. Behind closed doors is where they think they can glory in their lack of "socialisation". They have not been in the process of their human development "civilised." I am getting very keen on the expression i hear a bt lately for Ns of calling them "ferals".
I think they so hate wearing the mask or veneer of civilisation in public life that all the worms come out of the closet once they get naked and there are few witnesses / trusted witnesses hence low risk of "image" damage.
Well i discovered all sorts of horrors re my n/p including interest lie jude says in rape scenarios, a bdsm double life as a cult leader with slaves all over the place whose lives he remote micro controlled in cruel ways, interest in bestiality amongst every other perversion available (dating profiles listed oh about 300 perversions of interest to him!!!!), interest in children...
But what really hit home for me was the statement on his dating profile spiel that its his turn on to see fems cry! He calls us fems (not women) being cerebral and scientifical / cold / into object classification ratrher than more feeling words. N/ps do not like or "get" feeling loaded words. He also talks of fems with his other feral male mates as if they are interchangeable and tradeable objects and with much emphasis on physical attributes eg overweight is bad, petite (childlike) is good.
The reason his statement re seeing females cry hit home is then it got personal. I realised why he liked driving his wife and kids to tears of frustration with him all through our lives. It was not that he made innocent mistakes / was stupid / was emotionally unintelligent or damaged and repeating patterns or had a mental illness or all those other excuses we made for his tear provoking behaviours. He was driving us to distraction all those years just because he wanted to as it "turned him on". Definition of a sadist. An undercover one. Yuk. Monsters are real.
I have always chosen my dogs for their refined and genuine and gentle natures. They to me unconsciously represented a pinnacle of civilisation - labradors, beagles, greyhounds, german shepherds, german shorthair pointers, border collies or any combination of the above are what i regard as good role models - seriously!!!
I guess i rebalanced my fathers primitivising influence by looking to these pets for better examples of functional social behaviour and real versus fake spiritual development while growing up and thereafter. As the n/p father was essentially les human or civilised than they.
Once did a paper on what constitutes a "person". It does not equate with being of human genus. It normally requires consciousness (thought ability / will) tho not necessarily (eg people in vegetative state)and would mean the entity is societally conferred rights within its own culture or society in its own time.
An animal can therefore be considered a person. I think my dogs are / were more actualised in the relm of humane / human personality development than my own n/p father. A comment sad but true.
Perhaps our Ns need to be put in a time travel machine and sent back to an era when women and children were not considered as "persons" in their own legal, moral or spiritual right but rather as male possessions to torment at will (if one was of that mind). Perhaps they were born in the wrong time and place. Have we domesticated the wolf into a friendly household pet over thousands of years of selective breeding but taken less trouble to refine males? Rambling now...
But yep, the sexuality if we can call it that is where they really show true colours.
From: flower Sent: 1/14/2006 6:01 PM Rustilo,
Your posts really get me to thinking about what lies beneath these n/ps.
And your right, it is often their secret sexuality, which shows who they truly are--sadists or sick sobs. I think it would have been more honest and less cowardly for that n/p and others if they would just come out of their sadist closet and show their true selves from the get go. NO!!! They have to play their mindgames and suck women in emotionally, which often makes it more difficult for women to say no, especially after being emotionally wounded from a previous relationship.
Your words: "But what really hit home for me was the statement on his dating profile spiel that its his turn on to see fems cry! "
Similarily that n/p reported in a message on his favorite site, "Seeing a woman helpless makes me hard." How sick is that? Likewise, he has a thing for suffering. This "hit home" (your words) for me as well. He is liscensed in the health care profession in ER situations---plenty of suffering everywhere. Sick sob is in the midst of suffering. I've imagined him getting almost a boner, as be bounces from patient to patient, offering his services as the "great god health care provider." I am not effected by it personally, but sickens me when I think this is happening and not a thing I can do about it.
What your N did to you as a kid is horrible and a prime example of their sadist intentions---of how they get their jollies of others sadness and pain.
You are on to something here about PRIMITIVE---a recessive inherited gene., which makes their neurological systems primitive or possibly undeveloped. There are references to primordial rage in their psyche. Many of them are into hair pulling, biting, and other acts of violence--much like a cave man, treating a woman like a piece of property. Furthermore, you may want to look up Gorean or Gore psychology as well on the net.
Hug to you,
Flower
From: Rustilo1 Sent: 1/14/2006 6:24 PM NO NEED fLOWER, MY FATHER LEFT THE GOREAN NOVELS ON MY BROTHERS PILLOWS WHEN VISITING HIM ONCE. BROTHER WAS (THANK GOD) VERY DISTRESSED BY THIS "MENTORING" EFFORT.
From: flower Sent: 1/14/2006 6:31 PM Well then, Rustilo, you know how much male Ns think of women---slaves to kneel at their feet and to do as with they please. Heck, stuff portrayed in Gore, people wouldn't do to their animals. Sick SOBS!
HUG, Flower
From: CZBZ Sent: 1/14/2006 7:05 PM 'Gorean or Gore psychology'
Okay, Flower. WHAT is THAT? Dare I ask??? Got Links??
Hugs,
CZ
From: **** Sent: 1/14/2006 8:56 PM My Ex was obsessed with masturbating and didn't want to have sex very often. He would call me a hag, push me away with his hands, and go back to masturbating. Is this normal for a narcissist? I thought it was the strangest thing.
From: emmrut1953 Sent: 1/15/2006 9:24 AM What about a man who has no libido? My H never seemed to desire me. He rarely initiated and frequently rejected my advances. He never wanted to experiment. There was little passion. He didn't really care to please me...especially after we were married.
Sex was more of a "should" or a marital obligation. We would go weeks, then months ...then years without intercourse.
He was not affectionate. When we held hands, he would pull his hand away at the first opportune moment. He had no desire to sit and cuddle or to just put his arma round me. He was uncomfortable being naked.
He did not touch me during my 3 pregnancies...claiming that he feared that he would hurt the baby.
When I married him, I thought he was just repressed, but our sex life worsened , rather than improved. Anyone else have this type of experience? I'm told it is common with a "cerebral narcissist"
From: **** Sent: 1/15/2006 10:51 AM
Yes, mine wouldn't touch me during pregnancy, claiming he feared to hurt the baby.
Our sex life got much worse after we married.
From: emmrut1953 Sent: 1/15/2006 11:09 AM How long were/are you married ****? Did your H get involved with an OW?
My H's lackof libido was complicated by gradually worsening ED caused by a vascular problem. My H is now in love with a 29 year old girl. He's 53!
I have no idea if there is a physical relationship. He claimed that there was not. She is not interested in him doesn't return his feelings for her, although she "cares about him" Nevertheless, My H continues to profess his love for her in e-mail, test messages. She has since married her live-in BF. but she has NOT forecefully declined my H's advances. She works for my H. He buys her lunch, puuts her name on all of his legal briefs. He is her mentor.
He just left his lawfirm to form a 50/50 partnership with her!!! So she is using him for her ego and for professional reasons. I wonder what if anything her husband knows?
From: flower Sent: 1/15/2006 12:05 PM Czbz,
It was later at night and I was typing awat before my brain had a chance to catch up, LOL To clarify, I have studied the philosophy (not psychology) of Gore or Gorean lifestyle psychologically.In others words, "What is going on inside women's minds to go along with this? Am I missing something here?
Ok, cz, did you look this up already? LOL
Here's a quote in gor-on-earth.com:
"I do not kneel before men because I am weak. I kneel because I am strong enough to accept myself." -kaylee, 2001
http://www.gor-on-earth.com/lib.htm http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id432/pg1/ http://www.goreanwhispers.com/home.html Note: Even though the third link explains and justifies the bdsm tenants, I did not see any pornographic photos. Whoever reads these links, please let me know what you think about this. If no one goes first, I will, LOL
Love, Flower
From: **** Sent: 1/15/2006 1:04 PM I was married 20 years and there was no OW. Ex is remarried and I can't imagine how he is getting around sex with his new wife.
From: Rox24201 Sent: 1/15/2006 3:12 PM Em, what hurts is when you find out that they do indeed have a libido, they just don't prefer YOU. It could be fishing with the buddies or just the ol' computer porn stand by with hand lotion.
Brokeback Mountain or as others say "Back Mounting..." They do what makes them appear... whatever, they are so in lust.. What a wonderful and beautifully depicted film
Listen, I am not bashing gays, but I think these people need to come out of the f*cking closet and stop hurting innocent people and making families in the process. This was a film about my xNP's mother. Okay, not really, but could' ve been.
Hollywood smells of sh*te. They are dictating how we are supposed to feel about being politically correct over EVERYTHING.. If ANYONE has noticed anything recently, it's all about "contempt" for the female. Botox, implants, huge ugly lips, whatever... Let's move on... cheating, adopting children, getting preggo before anyone heals.... it all sucks. F*cking over your fellow sister, it's all soooo cool, because you're so "in" and accepted when you have so much stuff, LOL.
Do I sound jaded? Damned right! We (sisters) do it to each other.
Unfortunately, we need to question the sex lives of just about everyone in close contact with us.
Roxanne
From: flower Sent: 1/15/2006 5:26 PM Here is my take on this:
What is normal for a narcissist is to avoid emotional closeness. Many narcissists are able to fake emotional closeness and one of the ways is through sex. It seems like it was too difficult for your husband to be able to fake it.
As for getting around sex with his new wife, it could be some sort of an arrangement. She may not like sex or maybe lesbian. Many Ns have such weird arrangements you would not believe.
Flower
From: Rox24201 Sent: 1/15/2006 5:39 PM Yep, agree. You would not believe. I only wish I could go back to being an innocent bunny rabbit.
Roxanne.
From: Rox24201 Sent: 1/15/2006 5:47 PM OBTW, I hate rabbits. I lived in a building at the time with all of these restrictions, therefore, I had alternative pets. Ferrets, bunnies, reptiles, you name it...
I wish I could go back to being just plain stupid.
I'm a silly goose,
Roxanne
P.S. Just LOVE those down feathers!
From: **** Sent: 1/15/2006 8:28 PM This is to Flower:
Thank you for your comments. Ex's new wife actually found him on an Internet dating site. He had posted a picture of himself at a Halloween Carnival with our kids. He had his hair spray-painted green in the picture. New wife took one look at that picture, and said, "That's the man for me!" It made me feel a little bit angry to hear that--I understand how endearing it can be when a man is not afraid to appear foolish in the interests of entertaining his children. My mother and I got a huge kick out of Ex's "hairstyle" which our 10-year-old gave him (sort of a Pebbles Flintstone look) about six years ago, right before my mom died. He was not self-conscious, and walked around all day with this silly pink bow in his hair. I agree that that is endearing, but it certainly doesn't negate all the abusive behavior!
From: Rustilo1 Sent: 1/15/2006 10:03 PM CZ,
Gorean stuff is the sickest stuff out there. It is tailorwritten by n/ps for n/ps. n/ps of means live "the novels" in their everyday life. They buy and sell and control slaves who are (initially) consentually treated sadistically. The slaves sell their souls to their owner for no money but in hope of "self improvement" then (if they live i guess) find they likely end with stockholms / are isolated so there can be no escape from the tortured life they willingly stepped into.
My father is deeply into this and borrows and trades slaves . In taking a slave i believe that would mean u own their children too. Which does not bear thinkig about. Slave owners living dbl lives might have a wife at home and a women for example in the same city who has been told to ? stay in a cupboard for 5 days and survive only on eating her own crap. The gorean master might visit her to stick needles in her on occasion or to position her uncomfortably. Like a doll she must stay in this position until further notice (could be long time) or be severely punished. Meantime the N husband sits at home with wife eating dinner and talking about the weather.
This lifestyle enables sociopathic behaviour with willing (likely mental) victims and no risk of jailtime for grotesque actions. Consent contracts are ssigned. My father has several contracts saying he owns people who practically may not breathe without his say so.
Here is the basic gore philosophy (women are inferior beasts deserving of rape etc it goes...) . This website clip I copied to paste here explains it well...
Gorean novels -
read no further if could be triggered by "crimes against humanity" (a wee Rustilo warning)The concept of slaves as beasts is one that permeates throughout the Gorean novels. Norman demonstrates that the complexities of slaves as animals are twofold- not only are they beasts in the legal sense, but also biologically. While some of Norman's examples can only be upheld in the books, or within a society with the same structure as the fictional Gorean one, the emotional and psychological aspects of the analogy can be found here in our consensual society within a Master/slave relationship.
The most obvious reference to slaves being beasts in a legal sense comes from a quote in Explorers of Gor:
"In the eyes of Gorean law you are an animal. You have no name in your own right. You may be collared and leashed. You may be bought and sold, whipped, treated as the master pleases, disposed of as he sees fit. You have no rights whatsoever. Legally you have no more status than a tarsk or vulo. Legally, literally, you are an animal."
Explorers of Gor, page 316As opposed to Western civilization on Earth, where the laws often give inherent freedoms to all citizens, the slave under Gorean laws had no rights. She could not vote, could not free herself, nor did she have any caste or social standing once enslaved. Her name changed with the whim of the Master, or they might not be bothered to name her if she was going to be sold soon. They were sold as property, with the slave not retaining the right to choose who their next owner would be. Some slaves were kept in a more conscious state of animalistic slavery, demonstrated by the she-quadrupleds found in Savages of Gor who were kept corralled in herds, and lost the privilege to speak until commanded otherwise.
Slaves could not have their own possessions. She did not own jewelry or clothes of her own; any she might be permitted to wear still belonged to the Master and the privilege could be revoked at any time. In Nomads of Gor, this is explained clearly:
"Surely you are aware," said Saphrar, "that a slave cannot own property --- any more than a kaiila, a tharlarion or sleen." Nomads of Gor, page 132Slaves relied on their owners for food, shelter, medical care, and clothing. They were transported in cages, or harnessed to pull wagons, farm equipment, or sleds. They might be examined before a sale as thoroughly as a man might select a horse or cow, the slave standing silently while the man asked the current owner questions on temperament, medical history, past training. Even such topics of their breeding became common knowledge. Some slaves were bred simply for one characteristic or trait, their pedigrees intact and lineage tracked, similar to domestic animals here in modern day society.
One of the fundamental differences with humans and other species of animals is the ability to control their reproduction. Slaves no longer have the right to choose whether to have children, and the ability to select her own partner(s) is controlled by her owners. They were at times bred, hooded so their mate's identity was unknown, or they were administered slave wine as a birth control device by the owner's command, not the slave's preference.
Slaves were branded as cattle are on Earth. A common ornamentation for the Tuchuk girls was a tiny gold ring in the nose, similar to a bosk ring. In fact, the methods used for these procedures might seem uncaring or harsh to the readers, but on Gor they were an accepted practice to mark or decorate beasts. Slaves could be leashed, or chained in a coffle, or presented in auctions and performing slave paces, similar to any dog or horse show.
With the social structure of Gor being based on nonconsensual slavery, the legal standpoint of slaves differs a great deal from Earth. In a Western culture here, all adults are given certain rights that are inherent, such as the ability to vote, the right not to be sold, free choice to pursue happiness. The legal system does not support slavery, and such practices would not be upheld in a court of law.
However, the psychological effects of treating a slave as a beast can exist on Earth as deeply as they do on Gor. Much of the Gorean practices were as much to remind the girl of her status and nature as they were practical. In Fighting Slave of Gor, it is said:
"Indeed, the leash, not uncommonly, can cause a woman to sexually blossom. This is presumably a function of such things as its actual restraint, which is quite real; its message to her that she is an animal, a slave; and its making clear to her, by a device, such as a bracelet, a brand or collar, what is the order of nature, who it is who controls her and who it is whom she must obey, who is the slave and who is the master." Fighting Slave of Gor, page 366Other devices can be used to remind the girl of her place: removing her ability to speak through the use of a gag can carry an impact on the slave. Without speech, she is forced to rely solely on eye contact and body movements. She cannot argue, and can only let her emotions be heard through muffled unintelligible noises. As a result, her body becomes her sole means of expression, her movements more soulful. Often, the effect of a gag carries with her even once it is removed; in fact, it takes a while for her to speak afterwards.
Owners may often have a tighter control over diet or exercise to maintain his property in its peak condition, a practice commonly used by domestic pet owners. Being caged, leashed, eating from a dish on the floor all carry the reminder of her helplessness and her inequality to men. While some may view these practices as being humiliating or degrading, it can be a beautiful practice that strips the slave of false pride, and teaches her humility. As humans, we may experience shame and value privacy. Beasts are not allowed such luxuries, nor allowed to hide behind these inhibitions.
They are comfortable without clothes for false modesty, and find a certain freedom in being in their natural state. Even topics such as their virginity, menstruation or sexual usage, can be discussed if the owners choose to, when normally society would allow the girl to have some privacy. That privacy which she once had is now subject to her Master's whim. A slave often may not be allowed the privilege to shut doors in the home, to remind her that privacy is not a right she has, but granted by the Master.
The books often speak about accepting the natural state of humans and their environment, as opposed to the artificiality of today's modern society. This is hardly the first time an author has used society and civilization to inhibit man's tendencies: Lord of the Flies by William Golding gave a striking counterexample of man's animalistic instincts rising to the surface in the absence of certain social structures. But whereas Golding's examples of the same phenomenon deal with a darker nature, Norman's focus is more on living naturally, and accepting certain biological truths without the artificial constraints of society.
These biological impulses can not be controlled easily, any more than animal instincts can. The response a woman has to a man is such an impulse, the more vulnerable she is to her own lust, and the more primal she becomes. She responses without thinking to fear, to pain avoidance, her own need to instinctively survive. These animalistic behaviors can be used as a training tool, and can be used even against her own will, freeing the inhibitions that society has placed on her. As humans, we display ourselves to attract mates as animals do. Some girls can be trained to orgasm on voice command, even when she fights hard not to. Other behaviors can be trained to obey hand signals.
There is simplicity to living as a beast. They have transcended society's inhibitions to find a further freedom, and just are what they naturally are without the conflict between morals and instinct. Norman mentions this internal conflict in Explorers of Gor:
"On Earth, as I understand it," I said, "your delicious and vulnerable animality, your feminine animality, the most basic and deepest female of you, helpless and needful, was, as a matter of cultural policy, consistently suppressed and frustrated." Explorers of Gor, page 319But above all else, humans are more complex than many other species of animals. We demonstrate traits associated with animals: be it the loyal devotion of a dog, cunning of a fox, barely restrained spirit of an untamed horse, or sheer raw lust of a bipch in heat. Humans are capable of rational thought and personal accountability for their actions, thus separating themselves from other animals. In slaves (females), that accountability exists only in their obedience. It is that blend of human and bestial qualities that deepen our existence as human beasts.
From: Is-it-you-53 Sent: 1/16/2006 9:21 AM "Em, what hurts is when you find out that they do indeed have a libido, they just don't prefer YOU. It could be fishing with the buddies or just the ol' computer porn stand by with hand lotion."
Are you saying that "fishing with the buddies" satifies his libido? Because My H always was happiest whe he went off in the outdoors...alone...or leading his budies on some sort of hiking, camping or canoe trip. As for the "hand lotion" who knows? I'm not privy to that info.
From: Is-it-you-53 Sent: 1/16/2006 9:23 AM I do think that it would really kill me to think he has a libido with an OW. He's in love with someone else, I know....but to think he would actually have a "normal" sex life with her...would kill me.
From: flower Sent: 1/16/2006 9:26 AM ****,
Generally, most Ns are are show and realitively no substance. The endearing or humorous quality that he portrayed with his hair was just show---superficial veneer or mask to hide his other side. What you see isn't always what you get with a N. When the mask comes off, there is often an abusive and sadistic person underneath. It is just that some are more so and comes out in different ways.
Love, Flower
From: **** Sent: 1/16/2006 10:28 AM To Flower:
Thank you again for your comments. I guess I was upset by new wife's "analysis" of Ex--I guess I thought that somehow she was going to get the endearing person with the green hair spray and not all the baggage that came with it. I do understand what she is talking about. I agree 100% that he can be quite cute and exhibit behaviors that warm one's heart. However, the abusiveness more than outweighs the charming part. And I guess what you say is right--the posturing with the green hair or the pink bow is just an attention-getter--then he reverts back to whatever he really is.
From: Rox24201 Sent: 1/17/2006 1:46 PM Em:
I saw this author on a talk show. I don't believe this is anything privy to so-called "straight men" who happen to be black. Going out with buddies (and having sex) while the clueless wife is at home with children has been coined, "The Down Low."
Scary, eh? While I was with xN, he and his buddy made me feel like the third wheel. Seriously, daily fishing, meeting up, countless phone calls on the condo, offiice and cell phones all the while that "buddy" knew I was there. xN didn't want to tell him to lay off of our personal time because that would hurt his feelings. Mine? LOL. What a naive little waif I was?
xN's mother left him and his brother as little kids to go find herself. She was never involved with her sons' lives until they were fully grown. Poor her though, she had to find herself being gay in the 60's and all. Geez, where am I, I still haven't found myself and I'm not even gay! I didn't leave a wake of destruction trying to find out who I am.. Perhaps it's what I needed to do for the drama alone, LOL.
Anyway, I've been reading all kinds of Internet message boards on Brokeback Mountain. It hits close to home from what I experienced with xN. It appears nothing has changed in 23 yrs of how innocent people are still taken in because many choose to live in denial. That is my concern since I felt that not only was xN a misogynist, he could very well have been gay.
Em, a lot of gay men have so many women strung along only to prove they can. It doesn't mean they care about them or love them at all. I'm not saying this is what happened in your case, but always beware that not everything appears to be at face value.
On the Down Low: A Journey into the Lives of 'Straight' Black Men Who Sleep with Men by E. Lynn Harris (Foreword), et al (Paperback - April 5, 2005) Excerpt from Page 19:
"... what he is looking for in a man. Some gay men will not date or mess with a married man. Others don't care, and it is all about the ..."
From: flower Sent: 1/19/2006 8:45 AM****,
His now present wife isn't going to be announcing to the world his less desirable traits, because, of course, she believed she got the prize. As I posted, "What you see, isn't what you get, especially one with narcissistic traits or the disorder.
HUG, Flower
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