I need some neutral advice- I am at my wits end

[jpjac]

I am looking for a neutral party with personal experience in a relationship with NPD, abuse, etc. My story is long and difficult to tell, but I'll give you a brief overview. I was married to a man for 8 years, together for 11 who displayed these characteristics along with alcoholism. I became co-dependent in this relationship. I finally found the courage to leave, only to turn around and get involved with someone else like this, but not an alcoholic. I didn't recognize the warning signs right away. This relationship lasted under a year and it is only in the aftermath of this relationship that I began to take a look at my past and why I chose these men. The dilema I am currently facing is this: I discovered, a month after ending the relationship that I am pregnant. I am terrified. I want so badly to be entirely free from all the abuse and to begin the long road to recovery. And I am torn between my religious beliefs and the hard core reality of bringing a child into this world with a man who is very abusive, suffering from this and seemingly other mental disorders as the biological father. I believe he will fight for his rights. I have many people around me with very strong opinions on the matter and I feel like I'm losing my mind. I just need someone to talk to.  A sane voice.  I know I need to make this decision on my own.  So many people around me are handing out opinions and judgement.  No one else but me will have to deal with this man and the pain of bringing a baby into the world, knowing that baby will be abused.  Many are saying it's God's will.  For a baby to be abused??  This man is extremely self righteous.  I feel he is dangerous.  Which is why I left.  From what I have read on these kinds of personality disorders, there is not much hope for help or recovery.  Particularly in a person that refuses to face what he is.    

[CZBZ]

Dear jpjac,


Welcome to our forum! We are an understanding bunch of people who've been through the heartbreak of loving someone who is unable (or unwilling) to face personal traits that prevent a relationship from growing into a healthy and safe partnership. Everyone's situation was unique and yet, we experienced numerous similarities with narcissistic people who remained dedicated to serving themselves MORE than committing to changing abusive behavior. Depending on the degree of pathology, narcissistic people may not be able to 'face themselves'. Which leaves us with a difficult decision to make that always involves 'taking charge of our lives and the lives of our children'. It takes time and patience and deep compassion for the struggles we must face ALONE. I am glad that you have made the decision to talk with people who have 'walked in your shoes' and still care enough about other people's similar situation, to continue posting about our personal experiences and the lessons we have learned, albeit reluctantly.

"I am torn between my religious beliefs and the hard core reality of bringing a child into this world with a man who is very abusive, suffering from this and seemingly other mental disorders as the biological father. I believe he will fight for his rights."

Some narcissists fight for their rights. Others walk away and never look back---especially if they are required to pay 'child support'. Bottom line with a narcissist is how much it costs him-or-her to put up with other people and if they are not getting the adoration and attention they desire, any price is too high. As you've probably read on this or other sites, abusers fight for custody because they are protecting their image as 'good people', they want to make sure they get their "fair share", feel entitled to have whatever they want no matter the cost to others, 'win' over a former partner by gaining full custody, etc. etc. etc. There are numerous motivations as to why narcissists will fight to 'own' the child and it has nothing to do with their ability to nurture or even 'want' the child per se. Custody battles are a tragic way for a narcissist to assert his-or-her authority, entitlement and superiority. Normal people are exhausted by the process because they empathize with the child's situation and it drains them emotionally. It's tough, I won't say that it isn't.

This does not mean that a child cannot grow up to be a very resilient, healthy and loving person...though in my experience, co-parenting with a narcissist often leads to dysfunctional behaviors the child will need to address when he-or-she is an adult. As long as a child has one healthy parent who empathizes, bonds, loves unconditionally, sets healthy boundaries for the child, instills a sense of self-worth and value, etc. children can and do grow up to be awesome terrific and wonderful people. The kind you might feel safe writing to on a message board.  My belief is that children of narcissists have a better chance if the non-N parent is informed and aware.

There is a potential genetic component to NPD (as some researchers claim). NPD may not be nature OR nurture. It may likely be nature AND nurture. This is the way I view it because of the many people I know who had narcissistic parents and yet, they did not become narcissists themselves. Or, the people who had emotionally available and nurturing parents and yet, they developed a narcissistic personality. Society has a lot to do with a child becoming narcissistic, too. Our children do not grow up in a vacuum. Once again, having an educated and emotionally available parent who is 'wise' to outside contributing factors skewing a child's development, can do a lot to prevent the child from getting stuck in self-flattery and external regulation. What genetic factors might predispose someone to pathological narcissism is still being theorized but most narcissists have other 'mental disorders/illnesses' that contribute to a pathological manifestation of narcissism. I write this to let you know there is always a 'risk' if the father (or mother) is a narcissist. Perhaps it is a small risk that can be modified by parenting, I really can't say for sure...

How deeply entrenched are your religious beliefs? As with other issues we face after partnering with a narcissist, our beliefs and values are called into question. sometimes we moderate those beliefs because we're faced with a situation we cannot reconcile with our 'beliefs' and thus, we struggle mightily seeking the right answer to a wrong situation. Each person will suffer and some of us may need to adjust our beliefs to fit a reality we never expected to have to deal with. However, if your beliefs are so embedded in who you are as a person and what God requires you to do in order to be a 'good' person, then you must consider how changing those beliefs might impact your sense of worth for the rest of your life. I know how painful this struggle is, jpjac...I've wept buckets of tears. Sometimes the belief remained solid as a fundamental part of myself. Sometimes the belief had to be 'tweaked' by the reality I faced in an overall consideration for everyone in my life who would be impacted by my decision. I don't feel there are absolutes in life such as right or wrong, good or bad, perfect or defective...sometimes the 'good enough' answer is both 'right and wrong', 'good and bad', 'perfect and defective'...Being able to live with whatever our decision may be is our struggle and sometimes our 'burden' to bear.

You are the only person who knows yourself enough to make this decision and while you probably feel 'alone' in facing such a critical choice, you are not alone. Very good, soulful and spiritual people make those hard decision on tear-filled nights, on bended knee, in gut-wrenching struggles. "We learn and overcome..."


Hugs and welcome,
CZ


P.S. You may be interested in reading some of Joan Chittister's books while you work towards a decision. She has comforted me when no one else could say what i was feeling in my heart:  The Spirituality of Struggle (30 minute video and transcript)

"...There are ways to survive the interruptions of life. We can, for instance, simply assume that life is a "plan" God has made for us. Then we see ourselves as a collection of dancing puppets on a string. We are simply victims of God's designs. Whatever happens, we know, happens because God wants whatever perverted, malignant thing it is. Everything then, they tell us, is God's will: God's will that the poor are poor, I guess. God's will that women are routinely beaten and routinely ignored. God's will that lives are ruined and children abandoned and villages full of the bombed out helpless. God's will that my life is warped and broken and desperately unstable. God's will. This spirituality feeds the notion that God is responsible for evil—not we, not I. We human beings are simply pawns in God's great godless game.

Or a second way to deal with struggle, just as groundless, just as unhelpful as the first, is to assume that God is the magician who molds circumstances and consequences to our liking. This God makes red lights turn green. This God sees to it that death and suffering and pain become a kind of vending machine game. You put enough suffering in, you get a blessing out.

In both those approaches, what makes the victim a victim is that they have failed. Either they believe too little or they feel too much. Either they don't accept God's plan for them or they don't accept the fact that pain is good, that unhappiness is better than happiness, that defeat is better than victory.

But God is not a puppeteer and God is not a magic act. God is the ground of our being, the energy of life, the goodness out of which all things are intended to grow to fullness. Yet how can we possibly equate the two: a God of good with a life of struggle?

But struggle, we learn as the years go by, is not without it's own great gifts. To struggle is to begin to see the world differently. It gives us a new sense of self. Struggle tests all the faith in the goodness of God that we have ever professed we have. It requires an audacity we did not know we had. It demands a commitment to the truth. Struggle is what leads us to self-knowledge. It builds forbearance. It tests your purity of heart. Struggle, in other words, brings total metamorphosis of soul. If we are willing to persevere through the depths of struggle we can emerge transformed. Enduring struggle is the price to be paid for becoming everything we are meant to be in this world..." ~Joan Chittister

[jpjac]

Thank you so very much for your words.  I did watch that clip of Joan Chittister.  She seems like a remarkable woman.  I can identify with her because one of my secret passions happens to be writing, English, poetry.  Finding a place where I feel safe from judgement and harsh opinions is wonderful.  I've never done this before.  I hope you can continue dialogue with me.

This man, he is very charming and attractive.  He is well educated.  An artist and designer.  He has a brilliant mind in some aspects.  His intelligence, good looks, and outgoing personality attracted me to him.  As our relationship progressed, I discovered that appearances are everything to him.  He is very clean cut.  He must look his very best before leaving his home.  His home is a museum, very cold, very clean.  He can't stand fingerprints on his stainless steel fridge.  Underneath his shining persona is a manipulative and controlling monster.  As long as I went along with what he wanted, the waters were calm. When I began to oppose him, that is when the trouble started.  This is where his true self came through.  He would throw things, slam doors, break objects, verbally attack me, then bring on the tears.  He would throw a tantrum.  I would sit there and watch this show unfold.  Then I would leave or ask him to leave.  Somehow, it would calm down.  He is quite persuasive.  A great salesman.  He began to look into his behavior at my request, which gave me some hope.  Threw me a crumb.  So I kept thinking there might be a turn around.  He even mentioned therapy at one point but never acted on it.  Ultimately though, when I insisted he seek help or I was out, he turned the other cheek, turned against me, and this is where I am today.  I escaped only to find I was pregnant.  He has used religion as a means to discard me after I told him I was pregnant (which seems a mistake to me now)- in order to say that he is better than me.  He communicated to me via email that he is "undergoing a Christian evolution" and therefore can't be with me in order to be a "true man of God."  Wow.  I began to shake when I read this and the rest of what he had to say.  This is when it hit home to me just how skewed his psychological state is.  People become very dangerous when they use God to justify their own deplorable actions.  They bring about wars.

I know he will fight.  That is my gut feeling.  And he will fight because of what you described- in the sake of his image.  Not because he is capable of being a good father.  I truly feel he does not want this child. That he is disgusted about my pregnancy.  That he wanted me to control me and now that he does not have that control, he does not want to have anything to do with me.  I am not the wilting flower he once thought me to be in the beginning.  I've gone through too much to be a wilting flower- bending to the desires of an abusive man.  I believe that he will take his disgust out on this little person if I have it.  And I do feel that he may try to take this baby from me.  After all, he can do it better.  He is superior.  And he has an arsenal of family members to back him up.  The last thing I want to do is terminate a pregnancy.  However, I feel the alternative will bring a life of pain for this little being, me, and my family.  I know the hell on earth of abuse.  It began in my childhood.

My husband and I went through a couple of therapists that didn't recognize his behavior as abusive.  He too has a wonderful way of portraying a different image to the world and being another thing behind closed doors.  Emotional abuse is so hard to recognize.  It is so insidious.  And so very damaging.  I think sometimes that I would have rather been physically beaten as a child and by my husband- then there would be proof.  But what of proof when our judicial system so often denies proof of physical and sexual abuse as well?  How does one prove emotional abuse?  I understand the legal process involving custody and it's nothing short of ugly.

I feel I am in need of a therapist now with all that is going on.  I am disgusted with myself and these men I have had relationships with.  I am hurting so badly.  I don't want to go anywhere, do anything.  Be seen.  I feel like I'm never going to get better.  I just want out.  I need out.  To save myself.  I don't feel I am in a very good psychological state myself to be having a baby.

Regardless of my religious/spiritual beliefs, I have tended to believe in a women's right to decide what to do with her own body.  I have not succumbed to the idea that women should have babies no matter what.  I don't believe in absolutes.  Life to me is not consisting of only black and white, there are many shades of other colors in there.  I feel, it's a personal choice.  I don't believe in martyrdom and living a life of self-chosen pain, claiming the Lord is responsible.  Many people around me have been hammering down on me as I voice those feelings that are so innate to my being.  One of my very near and dear friends went so far as to say she felt that something would happen to me if I tried to have an abortion.  I'm beginning to think her views are just as extreme as his.  I'm feeling very disillusioned.

Once again, thank you so much for your time and the words you have said to me.   

         

[CZBZ]

"I feel I am in need of a therapist now with all that is going on.  I am disgusted with myself and these men I have had relationships with.  I am hurting so badly."

You may find a therapist to be very helpful right now. Do you know anyone who can offer recommendations? Even finding a therapist that you feel comfortable with, can be time-consuming. In the interim, I'd love to talk with you and see if our conversations can help you resolve your dilemma.

Please try to be as kind to yourself as you've been with others, especially abusers. So often, we're short-tempered and critical of ourselves, extending our 'understanding' to others but not ourselves. Being abused is not the fault of the abused...we have opened our hearts to someone who is willing to take advantage of our 'vulnerability' to assert their power and even abuse us, all in the pretense of their superiority. it's a hellish thing to love someone who is unwilling to stop harming us when we tell them they are hurting us. That is not normal, is it? I mean, we all hurt other people's feelings or do things that make them feel badly but when they tell us, what do we do?? We change. 'Normal' people would do whatever it took to change behavior that harmed others.

"He began to look into his behavior at my request, which gave me some hope."

When someone does not follow through on their Promises to get help, it's a warning sign that they do not care enough about theiir impact on others to restrain themselves. Or perhaps, they are unwilling to undergo the painful process of self-change which is hard for everyone, not just abusers. It's important for people to realize that anyone who is narcissistic, has a difficult time tolerating the pain they must face in order to heal. Even if a narcissist commits him-or-herself to intensive therapy, it requires years of therapy before they make even the slightest of changes in their behavior. Most narcissists cannot (or will not) stick with therapy because they fear becoming too intimate with their unresolved pain. Narcissists are unable to tolerate mourning and grief. They avoid a painful reality through escapist behaviors and ego defenses that are harmful to other people's self-esteem and sense of worth.

Remember, once you're IN the relationship, it's very hard to get out so don't be too hard on yourself. You've been working through the first relationship that left you with wounds requiring healing and already, you recognize similar patterns in your second relationship. That is a good sign, a sign of strength. It's also indicative of your insight in being able to introspect and make connections between your past and the present. It hurts to examine ourselves...this is an excruciating process. If it were easy and pleasant or 'fun', more people would do it.  so take comfort in knowing that the process you're undergoing right now is  based on courage and strength, not weakness. Weak people (i.e. narcissistic abusers), RUN from insight and make themselves feel better as quickly as possible because they cannot tolerate the deep grief and suffering required to take responsibility for one's mistakes and change behavior.

Where did you first learn about NPD? Have you been reading books that offered descriptions of the narcissistic pathology or was this man 'diagnosed' by a therapist (officially or unofficially)

And, do you know his family very well? His parents? Have you witnessed a similar narcissistic trait shared by members of his family??


Hugs,
CZBZ

[jpjac]

This past year, I started looking back through my past.  Reading books like The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Beverly Engel, Codependent No More by Melody Beattie, Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend, Women Who Try Too Hard by Kevin Leman etc.  Some really good books.  I joined Al-Anon because my ex husband is an alcoholic- so is my father.  I want to figure out why I keep choosing awful partners.  I want to heal and I want to break the cycle.  Of course, I traced my behavior back to my mother and father.  My father is a classic Narcissist.  My husband most definitely.  My ex and my father are best friends.  Two peas in a pod.  It's quite creepy.  My father would never listen to me about my ex.  Used to tell me I was, "full of shite."

I discovered NPD and OCPD when I began looking into my ex boyfriend's, my husband's behavior, my parent's, myself.  Trying to make sense of it all.  Books on abuse and working through it are wonderful, something tangible for me to process.  In fact the books I have read have been more beneficial to me than any therapist I've ever encountered.  It really is hard to find a good one. I wish I did have a good lead.  I don't think I've stumbled upon a decent therapist yet, honestly.  Abuse is such a vague term.  I dug deeper to find specific conditions- terms that applied specifically to what I had experienced and matched the qualities and behaviors displayed by these men and came up with this.  Not one source- not a therapist, friends, or the books I have read thus far, etc have ever offered a link to specific disorders.  It was all just thrown into the broad category of abuse.  So, it really is a diagnosis made by me.  Though with my ex boyfriend, he knew he was OCPD- so did his ex wife- but he refused to see it as a condition that needed to be treated.  He saw it as a positive.  Defended it. Ha!  When I read about a condition and everything matches up almost perfectly, it's hard to deny what I am looking at.  I guess it helps me in a way- to have something specific to point to.  It helps me know it's not me.  And it also helps me face the reality- that it is better to walk away.

It really does hurt to examine myself.  But through the pain, I see some light- where before I had just lived in darkness.  The years I was married, I was so caught up in my husbands behavior that I didn't see how it was affecting my own- what I was becoming in the process.  How much of myself I lost.  I remember the day I opened Melody Beattie's book on codependency.   I was shaking and crying because the very first story in the book is about a woman just like me.  Described my life and my feelings to a T.  I realized I had become sick too.  Not an abuser, but it wasn't just my ex husband that needed help. I do too only for different reasons.  I enabled him- his alcoholism, and his ability to hurt me by staying and not walking away as I should have years ago. 

I gave that book to him and asked him to read that story in front of me.  I told him, "This is me."  He actually cried.  Amazing.  All the years and the tears I have cried- just as you have said- buckets.  While he remained dry eyed.  All the pain we go through loving these people who don't know how to take our love and reciprocate it.  It's so very painful.  I just wanted him to know.  But I don't bother trying to throw light into anyone else's world anymore.  Even if there is a momentary break in the clouds, they always come back again.  Not for me.  I want a clear, bright daylight in my life.  I know it will take a lot of time.  Sometimes it's very frustrating.  I try not to get down on myself. 

It's really quite terrible that Narcissists are unable to tolerate mourning and grief when they bring the rain down on everyone else's life and their own without any self awareness.  Very sad.  But I see that in the lives of my ex husband, my father, ex boyfriend, and their parents lives. 

As far as my ex boyfriend- his father is a raging alcoholic, extremely critical, with a grand superiority complex who once almost killed his mother by beating her.  But she stayed with him, acting as his enabler.  He stopped beating her physically, not emotionally.  She kept her son in a bubble and leaned on him for the emotional support that she didn't get from his father.  His mother and grandmother are the OCPD types.  They drove him crazy with their obsessive, abusive behavior.  So, yes, I do see the connections and where they come from.

The awful thing about my ex husband is he has refused to let go of me.  It drives me crazy.  We have two beautiful boys together- they are 6 and 8.  So we still see each other quite a bit.  He gave me a card for my birthday a week ago- "To My Wife" it says in big, black letters at the top. ??  You have got to be kidding me!  I'm not your wife!  I haven't been for quite some time now.  Move on and leave me be, please.  He has dated other people, but he has seemingly convinced himself that we should be together.  He wants to get help together! javascript:void(0); This cracks me up.  It's all dependent on me!  His change in behavior.  Oh Boy.  I don't know why I am not in an asylum yet.  I think if I didn't have a great sense of humor, I really would be.  I talk about moving to some place by the coast where its sunny and warm.  I can spend my free time near the ocean- alone.  Of course if I did that, I'd probably get swallowed by a tsunami. LOL.

I love the name of this site, by the way.  Web of Narcissism.  An incredible metaphor.  That is what it feels like.  The Narcissist abuser is the spider that spins a web- attractive to the eye of the fly passerby.  We get caught and the spider sucks us dry, slowly, painfully over time.  It's up to us to cut ourselves free.

I know I've just started out on this journey alone, but I'm enjoying it so far- hard as it is.  The best thing is going to sleep at night alone with my two cats and my big German Shepherd.  Sometimes I let her sleep on the bed.  That stuff- the small things- are just so priceless.  I'll hang onto those moments as I go along- they are what keeps me from going under entirely.

You were married too for many years, were you not?  How long did it take for you to start really feeling good inside?  Feeling confident and not so scared, sad, and angry?  I've been a stay at home mom.  This is all very scary to me.  Through the years I've tried pursuing a few different professions- Nursing, an Interpreter degree for the Deaf, etc.  I don't have a clue as to what I'm going to do with myself.  I'm still in my house- the poor housing market has turned out to be a bit of a blessing for me.  The kids and I can stay here a while.  They have had enough upheaval and I have a little cushion- some time to get my act together and get on my feet.     

This decision is so difficult because I've had two kids.  I know what it's like to carry and bring my two babies into the world.  They have been my greatest blessings out of all this pain.  But I feel, overall, it's not the right thing to do.  I just don't have the strength anymore to fight battles against men like this.  Admitting that to myself is really hard.  My ex has come a ways since our divorce- though he isn't getting help, and he is still hanging on- he does not fight me anymore.  With this other person- I feel it would be a different story altogether.  Tell that to your pastor.  Ugh.

Thank you for your hugs, your words CZBZ

- Jpjac

[CZBZ]

Dear jpjac,

Thank you for sharing so much about yourself. I appreciate getting to know people online through their willingness to self-disclose. We could run a very different forum than WoN, dispensing information without making intimate connections with one another. But I believe that the people who are attracted to WoN, are comfortable with being 'close' to other people and comfortable talking about themselves both the good and the bad. ha! Nobody here has earned her angel wings yet and let me also reveal that I've met many people face-to-face and none us has glowing halos over our heads. Maybe the most common denominator for our group is that we've all made mistakes. Lots of 'em and not widdle piddling mistakes, either.  The next common denominator for WoN people is that we LEARN from our mistakes. Well, eventually we learn. We give REALITY a run for her money in the interim, though. At some point, we give up fighting the truth and accept our inability to make life turn out the way we want it...we're just people after all...not gods.

"You were married too for many years, were you not?  How long did it take for you to start really feeling good inside? 
Feeling confident and not so scared, sad, and angry?  I've been a stay at home mom.  This is all very scary to me. " 

Scary is mild for the way I've felt transitioning from a full-time wife and mother to a full-time mother and Auntie-Mom. During my marriage of thirty-plus years, i basically earned a degree in Relocation Mastery. Climbing the corporate ladder meant packing lots of boxes and hiring moving vans. There wasn't much time or space to think about 'me' as an individual and I took my 'support' role very seriously. Perhaps it was naive of me or perhaps I have an enormous capacity to trust people to keep their word---I dunno. I loved being a stay-at-home Mom and worked hard, very hard, to participate equally in the relationship. The shock of being Devalued and Discarded after three decades of relationship really threw me for a loop, to be honest. It took months to even be able to accept the fact that our marriage was over. That a husband and father could basically come home one day and tell his family that 'we' cramped his style and he needed to spread his wings and fly away. haha...and adding insult to injury, he assumed we'd be proud of him for defining his authenticity and 'movin' on'.

How does a human brain make sense of that? Well, I can tell you that it doesn't happen in a flash, or a stroke of insight, or a nanosecond of enlightenment. The cognitive dissonance between our beliefs and reality is so absurd that it takes 'time' for us to process the insanity of it all. This Limbo space between crazy and sane is when the narcissist takes advantage of our vulnerability. We're stunned, like deer in headlights and instead of swerving his car to avoid hitting us, the narcissist flashes the bright lights and steps on the gas. Narcissists are aggressive and vengeful and if they can get away with it, they'll seize the opportunity to Even the Score.

"Even the score? What score? You mean you were keeping score?" that's what we say when we find out we came up short in the N's eyes, that is.

I believe that many of us were emotionally traumatized by the abusive relationship. It isn't that we're lethargic or unmotivated or too afraid to take charge of our lives...we've been stunned by irrational behavior that contradicted what we believed to be true and before we can regain our sensibilities, we're 'HIT' again. Another crazy thing happens, another blow to our self-esteem, another below the belt whack to our sense of worth and value. My hope is that people will find resources like WoN to help them set limits on the narcissist's aggression because one truth that appears to be valid by new research on narcissism: vulnerability + narcissism = Increased Aggression. Whatever the narcissist can get away with, that's what he-or-she will do. So rather than blame the victim for being 'stunned', it's more useful to provide a safe place where they can restore their sensibilities and make connections with people who have experienced the Limbo Space, too.

"As far as my ex boyfriend- his father is a raging alcoholic, extremely critical, with a grand superiority complex who once almost killed his mother by beating her. "

Sounds dangerous, jpjac. They would be very unsafe grandparents which I'm sure you've been concerned about, too. Since your X-boyfriend was raised in this EXTREMELY dysfunctional home, he probably thinks he's a gracious benefactor because he doesn't Beat his wife or girlfriend. He likely believes he has treated you well, extremely well since you're still alive and you don't have any broken bones. And he may also believe that what his father did was 'understandable' because his mother is weak. I'm not a mind-reader, but I do have an active imagination (  ) and besides, most narcissists think alike. One thing that seems to be common amongst narcissists is their ambivalence towards 'mothers', that INCLUDES the girlfriend or wife who becomes a 'mother'. If you think he treated you badly before you got pregnant, just wait. It gets worse.

How long did it take me to feel better?? I'm still workin' on feeling better. But if I had to put a time frame on healing, it took about six months for me to get back on my feet and file for divorce and start looking after my best interests rather than expecting my husband to come to his senses and reconcile his infidelity. I feel really great about my life now and it's been almost eight years since he began self-destructing and three years since I burnt his Image in effigy.

"This decision is so difficult because I've had two kids.  I know what it's like to carry and bring my two babies into the world.  They have been my greatest blessings out of all this pain.  But I feel, overall, it's not the right thing to do.  I just don't have the strength anymore to fight battles against men like this.  Admitting that to myself is really hard.  My ex has come a ways since our divorce- though he isn't getting help, and he is still hanging on- he does not fight me anymore.  With this other person- I feel it would be a different story altogether.  Tell that to your pastor.  Ugh."

How wonderful that you already have two children. This gives you a more realistic understanding of our challenges as parents (especially co-parents with addicted or narcissistic partners). You already know what the challenges will be only this time, it will be even more complicated because of your x's familial abuse. I don't believe an abusive grandfather is a 'safe' grandfather, so you must also factor in the fact that you will NOT have control over who your child spends time with. This would be a major concern for me...as I'm sure it is for you, too.

If I have one regret, it is that I did not have more babies. I loved being pregnant, loved nursing, loved being a stay-at-home Mom and yet, I am glad that I did not have more than two children with my x-husbaNd. Such is life. I wish it were different than it was but I am grateful for the two children I have. Were I to have married a nurturing and loving man, there's no doubt in my mind that my house would be full of grandchildren today...life didn't turn out the way I expected, either.

We grieve our losses and we find ways to extend our 'nurturing instincts' in other areas of our lives.  This, I believe, is true healing---restoration of our most basic values and purpose though not in the way we anticipated. We close the door on one chapter of our lives and another one opens... 


Love,
CZ

[jpjac]

Thank you CZBZ.

This has been a priceless exchange for me.  I know I tend to disclose a bit too much.  Sorry!  ha-ha  I get to rambling. Writing it out helps me organize what's going on in my overwhelmed head and heart.  Then I blush because I've said so much.  Oh well.  The answer lies within and comes out on the page.

I'll be o.k.  And I'll keep coming back, reading, writing, and actively working on healing.

Your dedication to what you do is amazing and I appreciate everything you have taken the time to write here with me.  I just wish so much suffering didn't have to occur in our lives.  At least there is hope for transformation in those of us who choose to look at ourselves in the mirror and really face what we see looking back at us.

Here's to healing.  Learning and overcoming.  For all of us.

Love to you too.

Jpjac     

[kelster1975]

CZ - how old were your children when you divorced?  Do they have a relationship with their N father now?

I'm 34 and I cannot understand why this is so hard.  I'm a grown woman, adult.  I am an only child, overprotected, with no husband, children, boyfriend.  Have my parents been too much of my life?  I'm sure there was an unhealthy "bond" with my N father growing up, but what is my problem?

[CZBZ]

My children were 33 and 30 when we finally divorced. Our family Dream was shattered a few years prior to the divorce when their father wanted to bring his girlfriend home so we could all get to know and love her as much as he.   Yea, he suggested she stay in the family library which was also, conveniently, his private office. ROFL! Thinking back on the situation now, it's completely absurd and laughable. At the time however, my kids and I walked the brink of sanity.

My daughter is 37 and my son is 34 now. They have each been through more pain than society validates for children their age. It's a disenfranchised grief that isn't recognized by other people; even, in a perverse way, pathologizing the narcissist's children because their grief is so complex! It's one thing to 'lose' love when a parent passes away but to question whether or not you were EVER loved is excruciating...who would understand this but those who asked themselves the same question?

My son has reconciled with his father, having continued a low-contact type of relationship with him even during our divorce.  He was (in retrospect) a sort of buffer between the N and myself because my X knew that he could only go so far in his treatment of me before his son would cut off All Contact. He is able to get along with both his father and the 'other woman' now but this is probably because my son is a computer programmer...you know the type? They certainly aren't wearing their hearts on their sleeves.   He can compartmentalize the relationship much better than his sister who identifies with me as her Mom and takes her father's behavior quite personally. I believe there is a gender difference in how a son or daughter views a parent's 'betrayal'. In a daughter's case, she is the victim just like her mother. In the son's case, he identifies with his father who is not 'a victim'. it's another one of my big thoughts that needs more thinking. *grin*

My daughter went No Contact (her choice, I did not intervene) for quite a while. She later tried emailing her father and it was a total mess. She still cried and got angry and then depressed. She is now able to email him or read his emails as long as it's nothing more than a surface 'Hallmark Card' relationship. She still pretty much hates her father and hates herself for hating him. it's worse when she engages with him directly so NO phone calls and NO visits. He would like to take her out to dinner but she has so far refused for a couple of reasons: 1) she prefers thinking of him the way he was and not how he is now; 2) she refuses to validate the OW's presence or status as her stepmother; 3) she knows he will hurt her again and undermine her self-confidence; 4) she knows from experience that he will justify his affair by criticizing me; 5) she fears leaping over the dinner table and strangling her father in the restaurant and spending the rest of her life in prison.

I guess it would be fair to say that both my son and daughter are working through the aftermath in their own way. Neither of them is in denial about their father's narcissism. In fact, learning about narcissism explained their childhood and allowed them to believe they always were and are completely lovable. That the deficit is in their father's inability to love and not themselves. Learning about narcissism has gifted them with 'understanding' but the hard work of healing is unique to themselves. I don't know this but wonder if it's not more destructive for daughters-of-narcissists than it is for sons-of-narcissists. For one thing, women seem to gain self-esteem based on the quality of their 'connections' to other people. So being disconnected from a parent might be harder for them than the typically more independent male? It's a thought.

I can say my daughter is having a very hard time coming to a place of acceptance within herself. She is slowly working through her 'illusions' of love, the only thing she had to cling to with her father was the child's illusion. She believed that something must have been wrong with her instead of with her father. This seems to be common for children of narcissists. Her 'illusions' were created at a very early age and she has been eradicating layer after layer of denial. She usually feels so much better after confronting another layer of illusion but that doens't mean she welcomes the next one!

This is very hard work, this healing children do...they need support and unfortunately, most people do not understand the depth of their pain and anguish. They may need therapeutic intervention, especially if the 'normal' parent lacks knowledge about the destructive narcissistic family.


Hugs,
CZ

[kelster1975]

I am printing out your post so I can remind myself that I am not alone.  You NAILED it.  Love to you and your children.   

[RB22]

If you are looking for a therapist who specializes in abusive situations.. call your local domestic violence shelter  They often have counseling sessions for a reduced rate... can steer you toward legal help that is well versed in dealing with an abuser.  etc.  Basically a wonderful resource for anything that has to do with abuse. and how to deal with it.

Hugs,

RB