What are YOUR thoughts about 'forgiveness'?

[CZBZ]

EDIT: This thread originally ran in 2009. It's a good thread though with lots of opinions and thoughts about forgiveness. If anyone would like to post a comment on this thread, that's perfectly fine. OR, you may want to start a new thread and refer to this one if you'd like to comment. Some of the members have moved on but a few are still here if you'd like to address your comments to them specifically. I was extremely long-winded at this point in 2009. O my holy cow!  O well...moving on now....... ~CZ


Dear all,

Phoenixxx brought up the topic of forgiveness on the Tiger Woods thread. I'd like to clip a portion of her message and reply on this thread. Before I blast away in an attempt to express my thoughts about 'forgiveness', please know that my understanding has evolved the past few years. No doubt, my own healing process will guide me towards a more mature understanding of forgiveness than the sacrosanct religious prescript to forgive others seventy times seven. That childhood understanding led to being abused seventy times eighty.

So with an awareness that I have no answers but only my experience to draw from, please feel free to offer your thoughts or experiences with Forgiveness. We learn together and to me, the best people to learn from are those who struggle with forgiveness because they believe it is the Right Thing To Do.

Hugs,
CZ

*     *     *

From Phoenixxx: "I got into a heated discussion awhile ago about how forgiveness isnt at my disposal, not really, not for my exS, and that I have become aware that I dont WANT to forgive, so then the question is why not.  What is the upside in my subconscious for NOT forgiving?  I even used a Gandhi quote about it that upset a few pacifist/budding Buddhists.

"I have learned through bitter experience the one supreme lesson to conserve my anger, and as heat conserved is transmuted into energy,
even so our anger controlled can be transmuted into a power that can move the world. "– Mahatma Gandhi

I know I've spoken about things entwined with this on this forum before, but my thinking about it goes like this:

- my exsociopath committed a crime against me I dont know how to forgive, I dont want to forgive, he doesnt deserve forgiveness for, and I have no way of getting justice for

- I allowed my exsociopath to abuse me and commit that one crime against me for a number of reasons, and I might deserve forgiveness for that, but my conscience requires amends before that can take place

- amends to ME for what I allowed to happen to me require proof that I am aware of my past poor judgment, I have learned from that awareness, that I can and do exercise better judgment, that I can hear and respect my gut instinct, that I choose delayed gratification over immediate gratification, and that I pay it forward to other crime victims in an attempt to clean my slate of what I feel I owe myself and society."

Phoenixxx

*     *     *

What Does Forgiveness Mean To You?

First of all, let me say that i have no answers, nor do i pretend to explain what forgiveness really means. My own process has changed over the years and will likely change in years to come. In other words, my understanding of forgiveness has evolved from fearing my anger, to lying to myself, to being unafraid to say I do not forgive, to trusting my ability to channel 'unforgiving' anger into appropriate and non-violent venues for social change.

"I have learned through bitter experience the one supreme lesson to conserve my anger, and as heat conserved is transmuted into energy,
even so our anger controlled can be transmuted into a power that can move the world. "– Mahatma Gandhi

The goal is not the suppression of anger. The goal is channeling anger as a powerful force countering aggression and abuse. Anger can be other-destructive or it can be constructive. Anger can even be self-destructive if we repress, deny, project our anger because we 'fear' a natural emotion. Until we are familiar with our anger, we might fear an inability to stop ourselves from reacting aggressively; in that view, we might be prone to denying the fact that we are angry as a self-protective measure.

Here's the thing: we should be angry when we (or others) are abused or objectified. Pretending to ourselves that we are NOT angry isn't the answer. We might feel better when we fill our heads with positive affirmations, rainbows and halos, but it's not the truth. Feeling better is EASY. All it takes is a little deception on our part. Lying to ourselves by means of ego defenses is how we end up abusing ourselves, our integrity, and thus denigrating our worth as human beings. If someone disrespects you as a person and you lie to yourself so you don't feel angry about it, in a way, you are abusing your own integrity and worthiness to be respected. The terrible thing about self-deception though is that we experience immediate relief of our uncomfortable feelings. If denial weren't blissful, people wouldn't do it.   

Telling other people that we have 'forgiven' the abuser and no longer harbor anger towards him or her is not the way to peace...it denotes a 'disconnect' within ourselves, a fear of our own emotions and normal reactions to injustice. Being able to contain anger and channel it in a healthy way is the goal. Our self-esteem shoots upwards when we can trust ourselves to react appropriately while consciously validating our feelings.

I think a lot of us struggle with the 'mediated' push to Forgive All Trespassers because we know that being 'angry' will be criticized by others. Not Forgiving is a social No-No. We are pushed into forgiving too soon and if we succumb to social pressures to Rise Above the Situation and forgive, we are permitting injustices to flourish. Forgiving too soon is like waving a white flag on the battlefield and passively allowing armed gunmen to shoot us down. Is this the way to show the world how peaceful and gentle and good we are? By letting ourselves be destroyed? I suppose every person will have their own philosophy about that but I find no sacred value in allowing abusers to perpetrate violence on innocent people.

Here's a fact I've noticed after talking with people on message boards: Nobody pushes forgiveness more than abusers who do not want to suffer consequences for their behavior. Abusers who feel entitled to act without repercussions. To do as they please without limitations to their freedom to abuse. Abusers who fear retaliation because they are guilty and they know it and on top of that, they don't CARE about their negative impact on others.

Because the peace-destroyers won't change, the onus for Peace is placed on the shoulders of the abused, not the shoulders of abusers who refuse to forgive others but expect to be forgiven. Here's a typical scenario for someone whose life has been turned upside down. She tries talking to friends about her struggle with forgiveness and this is what she's told:

"You can't forgive the man who stole your life, your bank account and your children's trust? Well, then the problem is YOU! You are as bad as the abuser!"

That's Poppycock and bullshit. If you didn't get angry when someone stole your life, your bank account, and your children's trust, then there's something seriously wrong with your sense of self-worth AND your protective role as a parent.

I do not like feeling angry because it destroys my inner peace and increases my anxiety, triggering feelings of helplessness because I won't take violent action to balance the scales of justice. At this point, after learning to tolerate uncomfortable feelings, I believe it is my adult responsibility to BE angry and find healthy ways to channel that energy by: participating in social change; holding abusers accountable; identifying with the oppressed and the abused; empathizing and feeling with people who need validation, not judgments; refusing to turn a blind eye to negative things simply because those things make ME uncomfortable or make ME feel bad. So what? I feel bad every day when someone posts about abuse. I feel bad every day when a friend comes to my door just to talk. Not feeling bad for others because I prefer feeling GOOD all the time, is very narcissistic. It's akin to being a bystander when someone cries for help because they're interrupting our peaceful dinner. That is how I see it when people refuse to listen to someone who needs support and understanding and action as a fellow human being.

There are many ways to embrace our anger as a natural response to abuse and oppression without becoming abusive or oppressive ourselves. This is a difficult thing to do, not just because it's painful to be angry, but because society disdains angry people who don't forgive and forget. We have this ridiculous idea that no matter what abusers might do, our JOB is to forgive them and prove we are better than they because we deny our righteous anger. This is sloppy thinking. Anger is NOT the problem...apathy is. Denial is. Revenge is. If the energy of anger is directed towards justified violence, then perhaps we need to take a look at that and find a more effective way to direct this valuable resource towards doing something that is more beneficial than vengeance or revenge.

Restoring our anger is an accomplishment for people who have not been allowed familiarity with anger as a reaction to disrespect and injustice. If we don't know we are angry, we won't know we are being abused...the unnatural suppression of anger is dangerous for ourselves AND for society. Being angry requires self-discipline and toleration of the discomfort of 'feeling' uncomfortable. I like Scott Peck's quote which I have posted numerous times. It has helped me tolerate my anger as an energy source for social change:

"We must always hold truth, as we can best determine it, to be more important, more vital to our self-interest than our comfort.
Conversely, we must always consider our personal discomfort relatively unimportant, and indeed, even welcome it in the service for truth.
Mental health is an ongoing process of dedication to reality at all costs." ~Scott Peck

The truth is: I AM angry and that is why I am here. My anger propels me to take action to counter violence, aggression, abuse, and oppression of the less powerful.

As far as forgiveness goes (and this has been an evolution of understanding), I have compassion for narcissists. I do. My compassion stems from 'understanding' narcissism as a psychological disorder. But that does not mean I forgive narcissists for the harm they have caused in people's lives.

I am uncomfortable with the current trend to suppress our reactions to abuse as if that were a resolution to violence. It is not. Suppression or denial of injustices perpetrated by the 'conscienceless' validates abusers and silences the abused. We must hold abusers accountable and our anger is a means towards achieving a truer justice by empowering the 'silenced' to help themselves.

Compassion, not forgiveness, mediates our desire for 'revenge' which I'm sure most of us struggle with if our conscience is active and healthy. Taking on the behaviors of aggressors is not the answer. As I learned with narcissistic people, aggressive retaliation escalates the violence. The conscienceless have no moral brakes. I do. At some point, I'll back down. The result is that now the aggressor has a higher threshold that he or she can get away with. Our desire to forgive supersedes all reason and actually permits the abuser to continue abusing.  The perception that we are NOT to be feared has been validated because of our lofty ideals.

As long as we are pressured to 'forgive and forget' (abusers target our guilt because they know we will try to do the 'right thing'), we are rendered harmless. And abusers are allowed, even encouraged, to continue doing their dirty deeds without fear of retaliation. 

My anger has been the best damn thing to happen to me...Anger is the flower power beneath my feet. Forgiveness, though? Our society has a flawed understanding of forgiveness. We are in a process of defining the process of forgiveness now that the topic is being studied, researched, and talked about in the media. My own understanding of forgiveness has changed from a religious commandment to a secular psychological understanding.

As long as the most powerful are in charge of who has to forgive whom though, forgiveness is a means for sustaining power and control over the oppressed. Oppressed meaning people with conscience who feel guilty and are fearful of their anger. Why wouldn't we be? Anger fueled the narcissist's justified abuse. The answer is not denying our anger, though...it's letting ourselves be angry and then using this anger appropriately and that means holding abusers accountable.


Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

I have always been a major fan of forgiveness.  Indeed up until my encounter with the Narc, it has always been pretty simple for me to forgive and let go.  I am a person that does not easily hold a grudge.  Since the break up, I have very much wanted to somehow cause him trouble.  He had a posting on line that states some extremely inappropriate things (about prostitution, etc).  I then started clicking on the posting hoping to bring to the front page if anyone googles his name.  I have thought about anonymously writing the University where he works and asking how they can employ a professor that would publically declare such a thing in the hopes that he would lose his job and be deported.

I then received this email (posted below), and have decided to put all these vindictive thoughts behind me.  I have to trust that the Universe will handle any karmic consequences regardless if they are visible to me or not.  I am not going to google his name every day and try to move up that post to warn any of his new victims.  It is just continuing to give him my energy and not allowing me to put this ordeal behind me.

Quote for the week by Lynne Namka

“A Course in Miracles says that there are two kinds of thoughts:  attack thoughts or healing thoughts. During psychological or physical threat, attack thoughts come out of ego-based fear. Attack thoughts are of a vibratory nature that is not conducive to physical health. The Law of Resistance states that which you resist, you draw to you.  Resistance creates persistence. That which is denied stays bound to you. Attack thoughts whether directed to yourself in self-condemnation or towards others always keep us stuck.”
 
Appropriate Boundaries are Necessary for Healthy Relationships
Lynne Namka, Ed. D. © 2009

A boundary is that invisible line that separates you from the rest of the world. Within your boundary is that personal space where you feel safe and secure.  In healthy relationships where neither person needs to control the other, both partners have an understanding of fairness and the others person’s needs.  They grant each other the right to have psychological space and look out for small ways to create happiness for the other person. 

Abuse within a relationship can happen when appropriate boundaries are not set and kept. Status aggression is a concept from the animal-pecking order of some species using violence to establish dominance. Status aggression is the misuse of power where the older, larger or meanest person uses anger and rage to make others submit to his wishes because he can get away with it. Children learn abusive behavior from parents or siblings who get their way when they are aggressive. Unfortunately some of the children in the family learn that the angriest dog gets the bone.

Boundaries are needed when one partner tries to control the other. When someone invades your space physically or emotionally with discounting your needs, manipulation, bullying or abuse, your personal boundaries are violated.  Power and force to get one’s way and cause the other person to submit are the hallmarks of boundary transgressions.  When you give yourself away taking care of others without looking out for yourself in a relationship, resentment and anger can build up resulting in your feeling like a martyr and victim.

You have certain rights of being emotionally and physically safe within any relationship. Assertiveness is always about finding the balance between aggression and submission. Boundary violations happen when one partner does not accept responsibility for their own inappropriate actions and blames the other person for their own problems.  Blaming the other person when things goes wrong is a defense mechanism called projection.  It is a reversal of taking responsibility for one’s self. 

[talia]

I've also encountered the topic of forgiveness elsewhere and not been too happy with the generic cliche responses.

"If you don't forgive, then you're causing harm only to yourself"
"You'll be full of resentment and bitterness, if you don't forgive".
"It's not for them, but for you"

It reads like blah blah blah to me.

Personally, more peace came about when I did the hard work of forgiving myself. It was a gut-wrenching emotional process. Breaking through the barriers of ingrained feelings/thoughts from childhood that I was at fault. It was not my fault that I loved a person who had Npd and wasn't capable of reciprocity. I forgave myself for the self-defeating thoughts and behaviors that were set in motion long ago that set me up to be vulnerable to the Npd'r. It was liberating and started the steps towards learning self-love. Something known to me at an intellectual level, but never at the core of my being where it needed to be.

-----------

As far as the Npd'r, I feel indifferent. That came with time. He is an entity to me, not really human. I have an anger and hatred for the disease/mental illness of NPD(why does this have to exist?). I don't feel the need to forgive him(Npd'r) as I once thought I was supposed to. It doesn't come from my heart and to just say the words would be false. I place the inability to feel forgiveness in the hands of God. I"ll use an analogy that I've heard elsewhere many times. Does one hate/forgive a snake for being a snake? It's all that it knows. It knows no other way of being, just like the Npd'r that was in my life. I don't like snakes and I don't like NPD. Both will continue to survive/exist without my forgiveness.

[SydneyFireworks]

Does one hate/forgive a snake for being a snake? It's all that it knows. It knows no other way of being, just like the Npd'r that was in my life. I don't like snakes and I don't like NPD. Both will continue to survive/exist without my forgiveness.

~Talia

Talia - I think that's a perfect analogy and perfectly sums up my own attitude towards forgiveness when it comes to Ns.

I completely agree with you, too, about the blah of cliched general forgiveness responses.

Hugs
Syd

[eyes_up]

My thoughts on forgivess are much like Talias. I can not figure out what I am supposed to forgive. I  do not hold a grudge but I am not in a position to forgive. I know the danger of a narcissist if one is disempowered. It would be kind of like forgiving malaria. It is a human condition called narcissism. It isn't about my soul. It isn't about self. It was an experience that messaged me on where I was at in terms of awareness and emotional intelligence.

eyes

[honeybearII]

Ah, yes, forgiveness.  Such an angst-filled topic. 

I grew up and lived within the structure of the christian church for many, many years.  I had studied and learned a whole bunch about forgiveness, and actually DID "forgive" my philandering husband many, many MANY times while also making sure my denial system was up and running.  In retrospect, I don't think it was as much forgiveness as a refusal to believe that he could be the man he kept showing me he was by his actions.

So when the roof fell in and his REAL life was laid out before me in all its bare truth, I was gob-suckered and terribly, TERRIBLY hurt.  On top of that, he dumped a whole crapload of shiite on me about how HIS problems with fidelity were all MY pronblems.  I was whirling in the wind and watching my life implode and being blamed for all of it while all I could see wwas that I had spent a lot of years watching his bad behavior, being the brunt of it, and yet forgiving him and accepting him over and over. 

The last time, the final time, I finally figured out that I WAS ANGRY.  Like CZ, I had to get to the place where I was raving angry at him and what he had pulled and how he had treated me.  NOT ONCE in all those months did he EVER come to me in humility, say he was sorry for how he treated me and what he had done; nor did he ever, throughout it all, even ONCE ask me to forgive him. 

So then I realized that you cannot really forgive another person if the other person doesn't SEEK forgiveness.  If we simply say, "Oh, honey, it is all right.  I forgive you all your misdeeds.", then we are indulging in Cheap Grace as Dietrich Bonhoffer calls it.  That means you are offering a person a great gift but the person does not want it nor do they value it.  It is throwing our pearls before swine. 

I don't wish him evil any longer.  I don't seek revenge.  But neither do I forgive him for what he did because he didn't ask for that forgiveness from me nor would he value it.  If, in some future time, he were to come to me and say he was truly sorry and ask for me to forgive him I would do it openly and gladly but that will never happen.  It just doesn't with an N because they truly have convinced themselves that they are the victims and we are the perpetrators.  I DID ask HIS forgiveness as the mess was falling apart.  I knew what my failings were in our relationship and I made sure that he KNEW I knew and asked his forgiveness.  Of course, he was more than willing to take my apology but never offered one in return and yet HIS ACTIONS were by far the more egregious and the thing that eventually brought the marriage to an end.

So for me, forgiveness is about forgiving myself for being too forgiving, LOL.  Does that make any sense?  I think I had to forgive the woman inside of me that had lost herself and I don't really care what happens to him now.  He is completely irrelevant to my life and to my understanding of forgiveness.  I moved on and put it all behind me. 

Honey

[Julia]

Somebody once told me that forgiveness is letting go of the other guy's throat...... and that was simple enough for me to grasp at the time ( in the early stages...).

But I never had hold of anybody's throat, so I eventually changed it to " forgiveness is letting go of the other guy's shirt." You have to picture me holding the Ex's shirt (trying to get answers, love, etc. ) and him pulling away from me... so when I let go.... he went flying backward on his A$$. This is pretty much what has happened, by the way. I think I forgave him about as much as I could for the time being. Forgiveness to me, so far, means compassion for how messed up he is. Compassion and  gratitude that I am the victim of an N rather than an N.

I like the Ghandi quote and CZs vision of channeling her anger toward this site to do good. I will think about that. Maybe when I am ready to do  more growth that will be something to work on. For now I am still too wary and anything but forgiving.

Julia

[CZBZ]

Thanks for the discussion. Now that my life has changed as drastically as it has people are always asking me 'what happened' to my marriage,  , the next thing they do is lecture me about forgiveness. I guess, despite my kind nature, they can hear a tinge of anger and it's disconcerting for a woman to be angry in my culture. Even if she's tromped on and left for dead. Her job is to transform her anger through 'forgiveness'. People try to teach me through other people's stories of forgiveness, that some women who were abandoned/abused, eventually took their X back and cared for him when he was sick and old. To them, this is the ultimate in unconditional love, an idea I guess they think I should strive for. Not that THEY would ever have to strive to live that ideal since their relationships are immune to tragedy.

It'd be easier to take the X back and wipe his nose than it is to defend my integrity, my worth, and my spirit by refusing to 'forgive' a man who does not ask for forgiveness. Until he does, until he 'surrenders his narcissism' to humility for his egregious errors towards his family, my job is to avoid forgiveness like the plague. That's because I know myself (as many of you do, too) and forgiveness opens the doors to my heart again. Forgiveness invites relationship.

Well, if you know someone will trample on your soul even once, then your task is to protect yourself from tramplers. If that means refusing to forgive, then I consider it my task not to forgive. Besides, the meaning of 'forgiveness' is so unique to every person that what one person calls forgiveness, another calls 'acceptance of reality'. Yet another person defines as 'compassion' and some psychologists define as 'detachment'. But if forgiveness means you do not value yourself as much as you should, then forgiveness might look like this: "Hit me again. I'll forgive ya." So don't do it. That's not the way to restore your healthy self-esteem nor increase your sense of worth.

I appreciate the principle of forgiveness and have always felt it important to strive for principles most dear to my heart. But not all 'sins' are equal. I keep that in mind. That a man would reject me is forgivable...sometimes I reject myself and have to forgive me...but there are enormous losses in people's lives and their struggle to forgive will be more complex than unrequited love. Losses that alter the course of person's life. Losses than cannot be reconciled. Losses that remain overwhelming burdens. If someone can make amends, and if someone asks for forgiveness by rectifying the damage they have caused, that's a different situation. Though it still might mean abstaining from opening your heart to a second victimization.

In the case of narcissists, my experience is that they do not surrender 'ego' and humbly ask for forgiveness. They also RESENT anyone who has the audacity to say they Forgive them for doing something they don't see as a crime. I had this experience myself and that's why i write this. I told my X that i forgave him for his infidelity and he laughed. "YOU?" he retorted. "YOU forgive me? How about apologizing to me!" Holy shitoly. That threw me for a loop.

What I realized is that I was 'forgiving' someone because I wanted to put our lives back together. I also wanted to Forgive as fast as possible because I really don't like being angry or resentful or tolerating uncomfortable feelings that cause so much grief. Cheap forgiveness, I am thinking, has  a lot to do with our desire to feel better...so now I consider it my job to tolerate not feeling better. I found it confusing to know if I was 'lying' to myself about forgiving because it made me feel better about myself or if I was truly forgiving someone who didn't even think he needed my forgiveness. Forgiveness can be a way to assert superiority (especially in a culture that heralds forgiveness as an ideal).

It's kinda complicated. I'm still working on what it means to 'forgive' and how my understanding of forgiveness might differ from other people's. If forgiving someone is easy, there is no spiritual value....spiritual growth is the result of 'struggle'. What I was doing for a lot of years, was avoiding the struggle...Still thinkin' about what I just wrote so if it reads like cockamamie disorderly chaos, please forgive me.


 

CZ


 

[skater]

This is an interesting discussion. For me forgiveness can't happen until amends are made. Without amends I see it the same is as many of you have written here - we would just be accepting the bad behaviour in order to move on. I don't know how many times I tried to explain this concept to my N. I tried to help him see (haha) that every time he hurt me it piled on top of the old hurt because none of it was ever resolved properly. What I've come to see since getting out of the relationship that forgiveness was impossible with him - key elements were missing from our 'conflicts'. Yes, we all do bad things but if we do and happen to hurt someone along the way, we (as normal people) see that and ask the person to please forgive us. We then do everything in our power to make sure we don't make that same mistake again because we try to learn from our mistakes. My N first of all never thought he did anything wrong - every time he got upset it was warranted - no matter how awful his reactions were (and some of them were downright abusive) it was okay in his mind because he was upset. He was justified. So he didn't feel sorry, he didn't want to change his behaviour. He had no interest in making amends. How do you forgive that? You don't - if I wanted to stay in a relationship with him it would have meant sucking it up for the rest of my life. He could apologize (but that was rare) but it was hollow, and we all know the difference. The difference is that he would do the same thing again, and again, showing me that he didn't really feel badly about it.

I don't forgive him but I don't feel anger towards him either. I feel sorry for him frankly. I'm at a stage like Talia wrote about - trying to forgive myself for putting up with it for so long. I've had a long discussion with myself and we both agree  that I will learn from my mistakes this time!

[eyes_up]

I base forgiveness on if I am going to accept a person into my life on a deeper level...in 2 or more boundaries. Other than that there is no forgiveness for someones unhealthy behavior ... only learning and developing. I tend to take action so if some one keeps dealing bad cards in my direction I stop playing cards. I don't need to forgive them for handing me cards...i just stop being receptive to bad cards. That is learning.

I do this better today then yesterday because I know more about what a bad card looks like.


eyes

[Phoenixxx]

CZ

that entire post echoes what I think and feel about it too.  thankyou.  Its not just affirming to have that, but calming., it dials down the gusty wind...

[Lapin]

I don't forgive narcissitic behavior.  That's my policy, short and sweet. 

[CZBZ]

The holiday season must be triggering thoughts about forgiveness and charity and love and sacrifice and renewal and warm-and-cozy spiritual principles guiding people's lives. So that's where my head is: in clouds of mistletoe, plum pudding, and frankincense. Whatever that last thing is.

Then there's reality. How I truly 'feel' about forgiveness and charity and love and sacrifice and renewal and warm-and-cozy spiritual principles guiding people's life. Since my head and my heart are not quite in sync with each other (will they ever be?), I keep thinking about this thread and whether or not my Forgiveness Ideal can ever be achieved? Maybe not. Maybe that's the human dilemma of being imperfect and 'broken' and Honest with ourselves. I'd like to be an angel because who wouldn't want to fly? But hell, I'm no angel. I even swear once in awhile. And the last time I checked my back, the only thing I noticed was that it didn't have a yellow streak. There weren't any nubbins for wings, nor feathery protrusions, nor any indication that rising above the surly bonds of earth would ever be possible without buying an airplane ticket.

Speaking about flying, I tried hanging on to superman's cape for awhile. Then I fell. Hard. I'm planting both feet on terra firma from here on out.

"I  do not hold a grudge but I am not in a position to forgive. I know the danger of a narcissist if one is disempowered. It would be kind of like forgiving malaria. It is a human condition called narcissism. It isn't about my soul. It isn't about self. It was an experience that messaged me on where I was at in terms of awareness and emotional intelligence." ~Eyes_Up

Cognitively, i had a childish understanding of forgiveness. Some of that was cultural and the expectation that as a good woman, my task was embodying the ideal instead of myself. ha! Another misconstrued understanding of forgiveness was relational. If I didn't forgive, there could be no relationship. Forgiveness (which involved a fair degree of self-denial), was the means to keeping family together. It meant suppressing anger and ignoring repetitive patterns of those who were unlikely to change behavior eroding trust and therefore: intimacy.

Part of my misunderstanding about forgiveness was subjective and perhaps a little selfish. I desperately wanted to be forgiven for my mistakes and when someone was willing to restore relationship, I had to do my part and cease and desist being a snot. I was grateful they loved me despite my imperfections and relieved of my guilt. My assumption was that gratitude for being forgiven would facilitate the same result for others: responsibility for harm, deep remorse and changed behavior.

In my role as a mother, it would be unbearable should my children be unable to forgive me for being imperfect. So forgiveness is a tangled web and I'm in it. I understand that their willingness to forgive me is based on my willingness to take responsibility and CHANGE my behavior. I don't expect my children to sooth my discomfort by discounting their own. I am learning to live with the truth instead of covering it up with kisses and hugs and excuses and denying the past so everybody feels better. Nor do I 'ask' my kids for forgiveness even though I hope they do...

Another thing: I never felt ENTITLED to other people's forgiveness so when someone was willing to restore relationship, my responsibility to 'change behavior' increased. Maybe this is how relationships become increasingly intimate and trustworthy? We value a forgiving person's willingness risk being hurt a second time if we do not keep our promises?

It's hard on a mother's ego to admit she made mistakes. I'm making a broad guess here, but I figure other mothers struggle forgiving themselves for not being smarter, better, and wiser...the expectations we have of ourselves as mothers, are idealistic---considering the fact that we learn-as-we-grow, too. Birthing a child doesn't suddenly turn us into Madonnas...maybe we imperfect mothers give our kids a goal to strive for: being wiser than the mother they got. haha...hey, that was one of my goals.  It's one goal I probably achieved.

If there was a Christmas fairy who would wave her magic wand and grant me one wish, I would wish to have been a better mother. One who wasn't naive about human nature. It's painful being conscious of the fact that my children's cynicism towards marriage and trustworthy relationships is the result of my ignorance. Maybe I'll be working on forgiving myself for the rest of my life. Well, as long as I break the pattern, perhaps that is a way to compensate for the past.

Not to excuse my faulty understanding of forgiveness, but lots of other people have the same misunderstanding. Until I was faced with situations in my life requiring more than verbal/cheap 'forgiveness', I didn't understand how hard forgiveness was meant to be. As Honeybear said, forgiveness cannot be cheap. It's expensive. We pay the price in the sacrifice of ego.


Hugs all,
CZBZ

[honeybearII]

I'm with you on this one, CZ.  My greatest regret, the thing I have to forgive myself for and hope my children forgive ME for, is my failures as a mother.  I didn't expect to be perfect, but it takes a whole lot of humility to realize that I could have done a whole lot better.  Oh, my kids are great.  They are self-supporting, wonderful adults but I look back on SO many things I wish I could change.  Not the least of those would have been to be truer to my own feelings about parenting and not made so many excuses for their father who didn't do much parenting but sure was quick on the draw to take credit for their good behavior, LOL.

Knowing what I now know about narcissism and its affect on children, I see the damage done to my kids and it makes me sad.  I want, SO want them to find partners who will love them the way they deserve to be loved - mostly my daughters.  I see where they are broken because their N-father didn't do the things little girls need from their daddies.  He didn't bond, he didn't make them feel they were the most wonderful feminine creatures in the whole wide world.  Because of his infidelity issues, they don't trust enough to really love or to create the kind of intimacy that will bring them happiness with another human being.

I hope, someday, they will forgive me for my refusal to see what was going on.  I hope they will see me as a flawed woman, a flawed mother, who loved them passionately but didn't do everything I could have done and SHOULD have done to help them become the best they can be.  In the meantime, I am learning to forgive myself because I AM that flawed woman.

Honey

[eyes_up]

Tedi, Just to let you know ... something like I wrote above. I never had to forgive my mother. She didn't do anything wrong nor did you. People do things not based on a bad intention and that is what has to be perceived / realized. My mother didn't marry my crappy father because she wanted to bring children into the world with a completely non empathetic and emotionally retarded man. She simply says to me when I asked in the past... " I didn't know" and ya know what ? That works for me.

But if the adult child is still seeing though the eyes of the child then it may take a bit longer to realize.

It is that easy...growing up emotionally and seeing a parent as a person and no longer as a god that became a disappointment. I appreciate my childhood vision of my mother as goddess but there come a time when that evolves into a real person who has a past and then the adult child can deal with their own feelings and not blame or hold anger.

 

eyes

[CZBZ]

I'm baaaacccckkkkk! LOL

Here's another thought about 'regrets' and 'forgiveness' and why I don't ask my kids to forgive me my many mistakes: it's my cross to bear, not theirs. I mean, haven't we all known people who ask other people to relieve them of their burden? Those guilt-tripping mamas who are neurotic about every little thing they ever did that wasn't Perfect?

I was reading a mothering book about two weeks ago and the author was chagrined about a memory she had when one of her children was two or three years old and was burned by an overturned cup of tea that the mother accidentally spilled. She wrote that for years, she hated herself for not being able to protect her child. That she tried to make it up to her child numerous times but her guilt continued to haunt her. That seemed so neurotic to me! If I kept a list of all the times I spilled tea or rolled my eyes or said a swear word or ignored my kids or reacted in anger, well, I'd be a royal mess today. Feeling guilty isn't the answer. Telling our kids how 'guilty' we are that we didn't give them the life they deserved isn't the answer either. I mean, life is tough. It knocks the wind of you sometimes...it certainly cracks our Madonna pretenses. We learn to accept the FACT that we aren't perfect and we can't protect our children from every little pain they might ever feel and besides, 'growing up' is their job. Just like it was for us.

It just felt like asking my kids for forgiveness was projecting my guilt forward and expecting them to relieve my burden for me??? In other words: my guilt was not their job to clean up...it was mine. So I don't feel guilty really, though I do regret not knowing what I now know. Had I been able to make wiser decisions, I would have. That's just a fact...

Anybody else have thoughts about feeling guilty or feeling regret? I'm not exactly clear on the distinction...I do know the difference between harboring guilt as if that were proof to our kids that we were 'sorry'. The point of feeling guilty is an initiation into sorrow and eventually changing our behavior...so maybe people who don't change, stay guilty??? Then it becomes other people's job to alleviate their guilt for them. Anytime one of the kids needs to talk about a painful memory, they censor/silence themselves for fear of making mama feel bad. Now the kids are Taking Care of Mama instead of themselves.

Does this make sense? Let me know if my thinking is wonky. 


Hugs,
CZ

[eyes_up]

"Anytime one of the kids needs to talk about a painful memory, they censor/silence themselves for fear of making mama feel bad. Now the kids are Taking Care of Mama instead of themselves." ~ CZ

Yes , makes sense in fact this is the way it has been for me as a child and an adult child of a mother who carried this big burden. I could never tell my story or experience , never talk about my pain because my mothers was so bad that I would dare say a thing. She was too busy carrying the heavy bag. She doesn't need any more. YEP! make sense.

There are still moments when she will say something to the gist of " all the things I wanted for you kids" and she will name off fairly reasonable desires but the thing is they do not even match my needs. they are just objects that represent the good life or the Amarican dream life. Then at the same time she focuses on that instead of what can be done. This way she can continue to keep the heavy load of pain and not be present to what can happen.

That was about the stupidest thing to me at the age of 18. I couldn't figure out how to shake her out of the trance. so caught up in what she didn't do and even in the silliness of what she wanted to do she never really took a look at the real person , me or my brother, to figure out what we actually needed.

Unfortunately it was a perfect way of taking something lousy and making it worse.

Yet it inspired me to do just the opposite so that's pretty cool.

Yet, It leaves me with the thought and sense that my mother is self destructive. She punishes herself  for not being and knowing different. It is too bad she could not have forgiven herself and gone on to share in our life. Instead she got a new man who is fine but it again became her world and she stopped participating in our lives.
The mans children and friends became her world and she blocked out everything else.

 

eyes

[honeybearII]

I also don't think our kids WANT to really know about our own inner battles that we wage over guilt, forgiveness, past mistakes, yada, yada, yada.  They just want us to be "mom".  I don't think my kids, at this point in their lives, need or want me to go on and on about my own angst and whatever vestiges remain of my pain, rejection, etc.  They are too self-involved in discovering their own journey, to be loaded down with my Walk Through Memory Lane while I deal with what is, essentially, MY issues.

Do I have regrets about a lot of things?  You betcha.  Not the least is that I talked too much and shared too much with them while going through my divorce from their father.  While I don't actually feel like I owe them any apologies for letting them know the truth, in retrospect I should have only given them information they REQUESTED and if they didn't ask, I shouldn't have dumped on them.  It is a regret, but I certainly don't feel like I have to beat myself up over it continually either.  I did it.  I regret it.  End of story.

Maybe some day one or all of my kids might want to hear all of the story.  Maybe.  And then I don't have any qualms about sharing it with them.  On the other hand, they might NEVER want to hear what it was like for me and that is okay, too.  I am learning to bite my lip and not share unless asked to do so. 

Honey

[BlueSky]

So much good stuff to read over and ponder.  I've thought a lot about forgiveness over the years.  I think there are some things you can't ever forgive - and that's OK.  There are several things I've never forgiven others for - one area in particular still gives me nightmares to this day.  Also, there are some things I've forgiven people for - but it was only within my heart as I knew there was no point in actually saying anything to them.

I've had experiences where actually talking to someone worked and some where it didn't.  It certainly didn't work with exN.  I was sincere, but as soon as the words left my mouth I knew it was the wrong thing to say to him.  I could easily see the distrust and the walls and I knew without a doubt he saw it as my hurting him once again.

I think the most important thing is to not let the hurt and horrible stuff that others caused rule you or run your life.  If it was unforgivable, OK - but it is best to find a way to drop the burden of what happened, to refuse to carry around the hurt for forever.  That is vile baggage that gets in the way of living a happier and healthier life in the here and now.

The hardest thing?  Forgiving myself for what I think I've done wrong over the years....and there's lots.  Some of it is tied to being a mom and the choices I made early in my son's life.  It helps to read what some of you had said about forgiveness and your struggles with that related to your role as a parent. 

There is so much I wish I'd done differently - sometimes I really do wonder if I could have made things much better for my son - but what I know is that while I had heard of autism before, I'd not heard of Asperger's Syndrome and I had no idea how to deal with it in my son.  I did the best I could with what I knew then.  But it's still hard to let go of that...  Also, it is hard to forgive myself for how I behaved around exN - though he did withdraw first and many of my actions and words were in response to him and his behavior.  I knew at the time that I was not making healthy choices and couldn't stop anyway.  I knew I was likely making things worse.  I know that likely all I did was help to hasten the demise of the marriage - which was actually a GOOD thing!!!  Ironic, ain't it?

[Trobynski]

Hi Peoples! 

I have some thoughts on forgiveness that you may or may not like, but they are thoughts! In my mind forgiveness is an action you take in a loving relationship with someone that you care about and want to continue to nurture your relationship with. So for example, your best girlfriend does something terrible and you have a big fight and discuss the why's and wherefores and resolve the issue between you, then you FORGIVE her and move on. So, forgiveness, for me is something that is an important part of moving on from a RESOLVED conflict with someone. Because you realise that your friend did not mean to hurt you and that they are not oging to try to hurt you again.

With an abuser, or NPD, I don't see that the act of forgiveness is appropriate. I look at an abusive person as if they are a sort of mutation of nature. They are not in control of their disorder or whatever it is that made them abusive in the first place and therfore they are not capable of normal human relationship. SO they are not going to resolve an issue with me. They are just going to continue to abuse, cos it is their nature. So if I forgave them I would be unrealisticially nurturing the relationship.

I think it is more a matter of looking at them like you would a tornado, and going "Ooops, that was dangerous I will keep away!". You would not think of using the word "Forgiveness" to describe how you feel about having been injured by a tornado. You might use another word, like acceptance, or understanding that there was nothing you could do about it and it was just really bad luck.

That is how I see forgiveness.

Ciao for now,
TR   

[mamolie]

Trobynski, I so agree with you, they are a force of NATURE like a tornado causing devastation and destruction where ever they touch down.  There are no words in any language to adequately describe the devastation and aftermath of this force of nature going through your life. Physically your left standing in the ruins of what was once your life but no one can see or measure the emotional, psychological, pain, suffering, devastation done to your heart ,mind and life.

There is no national warning system and no portable radar screens for this force of nature that can strike anyone, any time, any where. There is no 1-800 number to call for help and assistance to rebuild your life. The red cross, Salvation army, won't be showing up as you stand in the ruins of what was once your life, with coffee and donuts either, help is not on the way. You are on your own. No, you don't forgive, forces of nature, you don't fool with it, fight it, try to control it or go up against forces of nature, you respect it and try to stay out of harms way. When you feel the winds and your mind start swirling and spinning around you, you could be in the presence of this force of nature,leave the area immediately. Be armed with knowledge, cause no one can stop this force of nature from touching down and destroying lives.

At first, I didn't think I would be able to forgive myself for being so stupid/ignorant about this force of nature. Apparently I am not alone in that, neither did any of the mental health professionals I saw, and as I type many other lives are being destroyed by this force of nature. I did the best I could with what I knew at the time and the limitations of a human empathetic, loving, caring mind and heart. I no longer beat myself up or have the need to forgive myself for being human. I am how ever, no longer ignorant to this force of nature, that touches down/walks among us. I can only hope that someday, everyone will know about N's and P's, a very destructive force of nature.

Hugs mamolie

[Sadie Wu]

This is what I discovered about forgiveness in the past 5 years.....The N used it to his advantage....and the worst people who helped him manipulate the principle were the supposed "professional" therapists whom he was manipulating.....the duplicity of the process was absolutely sickening to me.....

He would actually taunt me and laugh at me about how successful he was being...how easy they were to deceive....it was nauseating!  He would torment me, the same as always....of course, with no witnesses around....and then he would go in to therapy sessions and act like this "new and improved" person....which was totally bogus, and I knew it.  I was grieving the loss of the fact that my whole marriage had been a sham....that he had never loved me....my emotions were real....and I was being told that I was basically an "unforgiving" person because I would not accept that he was a changed man....simply because I knew he was playing a game.....The reality was that I was trying to grieve, and figure out a new life.....while still immersed in the same old crap with him....except he was in a new element of fun, because now he had help in emotionally beating me up......

I think that most of us who deal with N's do not find it so difficult to forgive.....in fact, perhaps we are better at it than most people.....because if we weren't, most of us would not last in relationships with them as long as we do.  When you are with an N, you have to constantly forgive because they are DAILY giving you new stuff to deal with, and that you have to forgive in order to survive it.  In a normal relationship, you could probably forgive and forget, but with an N, the crap never ends, and so if you were not constantly forgiving, the pile of crap would grow so high that it would literally kill you.....you have to stay on top of it with forgiveness....until at some point they escalate their behaviors to the warp speed where it is not humanly possible to forgive as quickly as they dish it out....and that is when most of us finally wear out and find that we have to leave.

Once I left, I found that the hardest part for me was not forgiving him....it was that when the dust settled from the constant chaos he had created in my life for so long, I looked around and had a very difficult time forgiving myself for having loved myself so little that I had accepted that treatment from him for so long, and had allowed myself to get caught up in his turmoil to the point that what he wanted and needed became more important than anything else....that I allowed it to become bigger than the needs of my children, and more important than my own dignity.  That was what was the most difficult for me to forgive.  The thing was, that until I found a way to forgive myslef, I was not able to move on.....so forgiving myself was essential to my healing.  I do not believe that forgiving an N is all that important because an N doesn't believe they have done anything wrong....they do not feel real remorse, and so they do not seek forgiveness....if they did, then it might be important to forgive them....but you have to forgive yourself or else you end up stuck, and therefore, you allow yourslef to remain their victim....and that is a waste, in my opinion.

The interesting thing to me in the process, though, and the part the is, and remains unfair, is that because an N with holds their love, and everyone is so hungry for it....Their children crave it, and the therapists get caught up in wanting to be the great one to cure them or see it as a reflection of their own professional success somehow....everyone wants to believe that their changes are sincere.....they get caught up....much as we did for years....in hoping and believing in the sincerity of the "new man/woman" ideal, and then it becomes like their cause or something......They have to believe in the N because it begins to matter to them personally....the N's draw them in just like they did us.....And so if we are the only hold out....the only one who wants to see reality, we become the one they all turn against.  The bad part is that we HAVE to see reality for the 1st time, because if we don't, we cannot move on....so we are screwed either way.....The only way we can do what they are harping at us to do....which is to move on....is to do exactly the opposite of what they keep telling us we HAVE to do....They tell us we have to accept that the ex is a changed person, but in reality, what we have to accept is that they are not differeent, and that we can move on, even if we are the only person who ever realizes it....

Once I figured out I could move on, and didn't have to have any one else in my camp....that they could believe what they wanted, and I could be strong enough to deal with the reality on my own....life got so easy.  My mistake was in believing I needed to somehow save them from being decieved, or prove to them that they were wrong.....If you can get past that, it is easy.  As long as you try to change their minds, they do the work of beating you up for the N, and they are busy watching you instead of watching him....as soon as you ignore him, they see through him quicker.  It's waaaay easy to get caught up in, though, because I think most of us have the fear that no one will believe how crazy the N is....because they have convinced us for so long that we are the crazy ones.....
So I guess what I am trying to say is that forgiveness is essential in the sense that it teaches us about indivvidual accountability....and in the end, that is the lesson that not only brings you peace out of this insanity, but also helps you find a way to separate and move on....at least it did for me....In the end, the only thing we are responsible for, or truly have any control or influence over, is ourselves....despite all the years they tried to convince us that everything was our fault....it was just one of their convaluded distortions....it's simply not true.  They just don't want to be accountable, once again for themselves....and when you start trying to truly forgive, you begin to sort all of that out....That is why it is important, and I think that is really why God probably commanded us to do it....He gave it to us as a gift, not a curse...


Sadie Wu

[Lapin]

When you are with an N, you have to constantly forgive because they are DAILY giving you new stuff to deal with, and that you have to forgive in order to survive it.  In a normal relationship, you could probably forgive and forget, but with an N, the crap never ends, and so if you were not constantly forgiving, the pile of crap would grow so high that it would literally kill you.....you have to stay on top of it with forgiveness....until at some point they escalate their behaviors to the warp speed where it is not humanly possible to forgive as quickly as they dish it out....and that is when most of us finally wear out and find that we have to leave.

That's exactly it, Sadie. They deal out the crap and you let it slide over and over again until there is barely anything left of your self.

Once I left, I found that the hardest part for me was not forgiving him....it was that when the dust settled from the constant chaos he had created in my life for so long, I looked around and had a very difficult time forgiving myself for having loved myself so little that I had accepted that treatment from him for so long, and had allowed myself to get caught up in his turmoil to the point that what he wanted and needed became more important than anything else....that I allowed it to become bigger than the needs of my children, and more important than my own dignity.  That was what was the most difficult for me to forgive.  The thing was, that until I found a way to forgive myslef, I was not able to move on.....so forgiving myself was essential to my healing.  I do not believe that forgiving an N is all that important because an N doesn't believe they have done anything wrong....they do not feel real remorse, and so they do not seek forgiveness....if they did, then it might be important to forgive them....but you have to forgive yourself or else you end up stuck, and therefore, you allow yourslef to remain their victim....and that is a waste, in my opinion.


I wonder about that as well.  Why did I think so little of myself that allowed myself to be treated this way and to accept it for so long.  I still question myself about it.  All that time wasted.  I have to learn to forgive myself for making the best decisions that I could under the circumstances at that time.

[muse314159]

Once I left, I found that the hardest part for me was not forgiving him....it was that when the dust settled from the constant chaos he had created in my life for so long, I looked around and had a very difficult time forgiving myself for having loved myself so little that I had accepted that treatment from him for so long, and had allowed myself to get caught up in his turmoil to the point that what he wanted and needed became more important than anything else....that I allowed it to become bigger than the needs of my children, and more important than my own dignity.  That was what was the most difficult for me to forgive.  The thing was, that until I found a way to forgive myslef, I was not able to move on.....so forgiving myself was essential to my healing.  I do not believe that forgiving an N is all that important because an N doesn't believe they have done anything wrong....they do not feel real remorse, and so they do not seek forgiveness....if they did, then it might be important to forgive them....but you have to forgive yourself or else you end up stuck, and therefore, you allow yourslef to remain their victim....and that is a waste, in my opinion.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that forgiveness is essential in the sense that it teaches us about indivvidual accountability....and in the end, that is the lesson that not only brings you peace out of this insanity, but also helps you find a way to separate and move on....at least it did for me....In the end, the only thing we are responsible for, or truly have any control or influence over, is ourselves....despite all the years they tried to convince us that everything was our fault....it was just one of their convaluded distortions....it's simply not true.  They just don't want to be accountable, once again for themselves....and when you start trying to truly forgive, you begin to sort all of that out....That is why it is important, and I think that is really why God probably commanded us to do it....He gave it to us as a gift, not a curse...


Sadie Wu

Amen, Sadie - beautifully said. I still doubt I will ever get to the place of forgiving XN, but it was a long haul just getting to the place where I could forgive myself.

Love, Muse

[Trobynski]

Once I figured out I could move on, and didn't have to have any one else in my camp....that they could believe what they wanted, and I could be strong enough to deal with the reality on my own....life got so easy.  My mistake was in believing I needed to somehow save them from being decieved, or prove to them that they were wrong.....If you can get past that, it is easy.  As long as you try to change their minds, they do the work of beating you up for the N, and they are busy watching you instead of watching him....as soon as you ignore him, they see through him quicker.  It's waaaay easy to get caught up in, though, because I think most of us have the fear that no one will believe how crazy the N is....because they have convinced us for so long that we are the crazy ones.....

Wow Sadie!  This is what I am grappling with at the moment . ....... this whole problem of being abandoned by everyone, even your friends, lawyers, accountants, all who are supposed to help and support the breaking up process. Instead they all get charmed into his world. And feeling like I am the only one who can see it all, like the "Emperor's New Clothes". It is a horrible feeling. Everytime. In fact that is where I got my forgiveness philosophy from .... I am currently trying to forgive a friend for getting caught up in the N's world and has now got a big job there and is a company director. I am so very tired of feeling alone.