Dear Julia,
I've read Payson's book more than once and consider it one of the best books for survivors that we have available to us. It's been awhile since reading it though but I can review her book this evening and discuss it further with you, if you want. Being able to talk with other people about a book is really helpful! I'd love to have a Book-of-the-month discussion on WoN. (We've tried that but never had much participation). However, if there's at least two of us, we can TALK, right?
There are some books on the market right now that I do NOT like. I recognize that just because I don't like a book though, it doesn't mean other people won't find it valuable. One thing we're learning to do on WoN, is to think critically and state our opinions without demanding conformity. I like that about our community...our diversity makes life exciting and broadens our lives.
Enough gabbing...back to the topic at hand.
"She recognizes that No Contact may not be a choice for a garden-variety N relative or boss. "
Thank goodness, eh? No Contact is an easier answer but what I don't like about this standard reply tis that IF people are unable to maintain No Contact, they feel like 'failures'. Then other people are quick to reprimand them because it's an easy answer. "You didn't maintain No Contact? Well then, ya got what ya deserved!" Where's the empathy in that? Where's the support? Nah, I don't like going to the opposite extreme and expecting people to go No Contact or live with the consequences. Ending a relationship with a narcissist is NOT that simple and sometimes we must maintain some kind of contact with a narcissistic employer, or family member, or neighbor, or co-worker. You can't isolate yourself from any person exhibiting narcissistic traits. Pretty soon, you'd end up
Alone , becoming more and more narcissistic yourself.
WE CAN LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH NARCISSISTIC PEOPLE. It's not as easy as 'cutting them out of our lives', but it is
empowering to the person who works through his-or-her triggers and chooses a response instead of reacting to unconscious manipulation. End of soapbox.
"What is triggering me today is that I found this book at my NHs house when I went to clean out his fridge for him. He is going into a residential program for his major depression and Nism - his second MLC in 3 years. The book was right on the coffee table, obviously new and unopened. Was my rather strange NH hoping to educate himself and perhaps gain empathy for what he did to me and presumably to his GF? He has an N diagnosis and he does not dispute it. He was also reading Codependent No More ( I think he took that book with him) and told me a few days ago that he recognized that his behaviors had made me codependent. About a month ago I told him that I now realized his behavior during the marriage was emotionally abusive, and he didn't deny it. He didn't admit it either, though..."
Always remember that despite evidence to the contrary, the narcissist believes his-or-her perceptions and will justify their behavior by projecting fault and blame onto others. This can be very damaging to the non-N who is quick to TAKE responsibility or BLAME herself. While your NH might admit your 'codependence' developed as a result of your relationship with him, he likely doesn't want to end his power to make someone codependent. It's a sign of his influence and power.
To a narcissist, being a narcissist is acceptable because it reaffirms their perceptions of
power over others. I would highly doubt that anyone as 'narcissistic' as your NH would ever want to CHANGE his behavior because frankly, being a narcissist is a badge of honor in the black-and-white world of Predator OR Prey. Even his comment that he recognized his behaviors have made you codependent is not an expression of remorse!
It is a statement of power and control. That is how I experienced a similar confession by a NH. It was not about REMORSE and willingness to CHANGE. It was about the IMPACT he had on others and wow, wasn't it remarkable that he could be so influential as to 'create' codependence in others!
As far as your NH admitting he had been emotionally abusive, he likely justifies whatever tactics he used to
maintain his superiority and protect himself. If I had my life to do all over again, I'd never admit to feeling 'less than' or being susceptible to victimization by a man who took pride in being an azzhole. At the time however, my hope was that my X-NH would be so remorseful and so thrilled to learn WHY our relationship had deteriorated, that he'd STOP being emotionally abusive out of respect for his family and himself. Well, that's not what happened and it's not what happens with someone who is NPD.
Narcissists are unwilling to step down from a very powerful position as an abuser. They might admit they are abusive (if the facts are incontrovertible) and they might even tear up about how the relationship ended, but make no mistake: it's not about empathizing with the victim of their abuse and control.
It's about the LOSSES they are suffering because we were not STRONG enough to support their insupportible behavior. Woe be us weakling, huh? They're sure glad they aren't US!
I have heard other people say that while it's been empowering for people to understand how abuse proliferates and the impact of abuse on people's self-worth and esteem, it has a counter-influence: the narcissist/sociopath is learning better and better ways to maintain control and dominate in order to guarantee the kind of supply they need to prop up their egos. I kinda shudder when 'diagnosed' narcissists are reading books about victimization. They only get better and better at what they do to other people. Instead of changing an abusive nature, they excel at surreptitious abuse so they don't get caught the next time. It's getting caught that grieves them.
"Is there some hope that NH is at the end of his rope and willing to fight back against the Nism for his humanity and soul, his very life? Or is he hoping to educate himself about his prey and learn from this book how to be a more successful N since he realizes that he is very unhappy, lacks charm, and has a hard time manipulating others successfully (unlike his brother, sister, and mother)?"
Most likely, he wants to understand HOW to do relationships so he never goes through the failure he's experiencing right now. A failure that is so devastating to his perceptions of himself as superior and powerful that he's suicidal. Feeling suicidal can't be fun for anyone, not even a narcissist. His goal is to educate himself (as you have written) to avoid another repeat of the inner devastation he obviously suffers or he would not be clinically depressed.
Even if he is at the end of his rope, he will continue to blame others for failing him (such as:
you were unable to counter his narcissism without being impacted in a way that made him feel BAD about himself). If a narcissist changes, it takes YEARS and YEARS of intensive therapy AND it requires a very talented psychotherapist to be able to work with him as a client. Most therapists lack the ability to help a pathologically narcissistic client...that is my unprofessional opinion after talking with people about the N's therapeutic experience. There is little hope for a narcissist to change, even if he-or-she is reading about NPD. This is because the narcissist lacks an emotional correlate to the information they are reading. If they cannot feel empathy for the people they have hurt,
there is no motivation for changing and there is no remorse. There's sadness, yes. But sadness ONLY because of the way they feel when people stop 'loving' them or giving them the 'supply' they need to prop up an inflated image.
"I guess I am triggered because I so fervently hope that he IS trying to change. I am triggered because I am very afraid that he will want to come back to me (he has dropped hints, which I refused to discuss - I told him to heal his Nism). I am worried about how it would feel to say no, and worried that he would change just enough that I would be tempted to say yes. Worried that he would change just enough that I would want him back, and he would choose the GF. In a word, triggered!!!!! And mad that I let myself get into this messy state of mind again. My rational mind does NOT want him back!!! But part of me does hope that he could be a better father, he could be stable, he could not end up a suicide. Just when I had given up all hope for him as a father, this trigger comes up. Obviously I should set aside any hopes, lest they be in vain. Obviously I should leave all of this in others hands and stop obsessing, worrying, hoping. I realize it is unhealthy. But, as you know, the thoughts come unbidden and I am again caught up in thinking about NH way too much."
I would LOVE to see every narcissistic person give up their narcissism and join the
human race. I still hope that the narcissists I have known and loved will one day be able to break through their defenses and open their hearts to being loved by thoroughly imperfect and thoroughly vulnerable people.
My hope is that I am smart enough to recognize that being intimate with a narcissist leaves me vulnerable to abuse; that I will be strong enough and wise enough to be able to relate to Ns without being susceptible to the same hurt and pain I experienced before learning about narcissistic relationships. This is what I hope for all of us on this forum.
If your husband is able to Beat his NPD, you won't see proof of that for
many years to come. By then, you'll have white hair and a couple of grandchildren. No respectable psychologist would ever suggest a narcissist had been healed in a year, or after a seminar, or even after 'saying all the right things' a psychologist has to hear in order to say they were cured. Respectable and competent psychologists realize that IF NPD can be treated, it requires years and years of effort on the N's part. This rarely happens. All that happens is that the Narcissist becomes increasingly efficient at maintaining the image expected of them.
I am so glad you feel comfortable talking about your feelings and your thoughts and your hopes, Julia. It helps for us to write out what we're feeling so we can stop kidding ourselves...I might sound harsh about the probably cure of NPD but this is only because of the hard work I've done reading through reliable literature and maintaining relationships with people who are narcissistic. Plus, this forum has been active for numerous years, and I'm lucky to know
the End to People's Stories. This gives me a more reliable basis for making statements about the N changing.
I can say without hestitation that everything was in place for my X-NH to change. Every person he ever needed to be there for him, was there. He had terrible parents so new ones came in his life and they loved him as best they were capable of loving anyone. He had sisters and a brother and a whole extended family devoted to healing, forgiveness, support, understanding, and trust. For a young boy who was given a raw deal in the cosmic accident of his birth, he was blessed to have countless numbers of fine and good people come into his life and offer him a chance to Change His Perspective, Let Down His Defenses, and break through his narcissism. It didn't happen. It still hasn't happened. The sadness we feel as a family is inexpressible because he was loved like a son, a brother, and a role model while also being loved as a good-enough husband & father. None of us, despite the combined force of our earnestness, could break through his narcissistic defenses.
The love was there but he could not partake.I believe narcissists can read all the books in the world about their disorder but until they are willing to be VULNERABLE and HUMAN, they will not, Cannot, change. They might be able to moderate their behavior to be more socially acceptable, but as far as 'real' 'change is concerned, what seems to be true is this: Narcissists are happy being narcissists. azzholes love being azzholes. Mean people take pride in being Mean.
What we see in a depressed narcissist is
a person who failed at being a narcissist.
Loves,
CZ
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