GRIEVING THE PATHOLOGICAL LOSS

[SusyP14]

GRIEVING THE PATHOLOGICAL LOSS

by Sandra L. Brown, M.A.

Over and over again women are shocked to find out how badly they feel leaving a dangerous/pathological man is. As horrendous as the relationships has been, as hurt as they have become at his hands, and the emotional/physical/financial/sexual/spiritual cost it takes to heal...why in the world am I so sad and in so much grief?

'Loving' a pathological (not just a psychopath but any person with a pathological disorder) seems to have a very intense attachment to the relationship. Most women report that 'loving' them is nothing like anything else she ever experienced. They indicate that it's more intense than other relationships, more mind-games that keep her very confused and unable to detach, and a kind of hypnotic mesmerizing that keeps her in the relationship LONG after she knows she should have left.

Because of this intense bonding, mental confusion, pathological attachment and a hypnotic connection her grief is likely to be huge. This is often confusing to her because there has been so much damage to her by the time she leaves she thinks she should be 'relieved' to simply be out of the relationship. But when the paralyzing grief mounts, she is aggravated with herself to be in so much pain and grief over the ending of something so 'sick' to her.

Lots of women are confused as to 'whom' or 'what' it is they are actually grieving. Grief can seem so 'illusive' - a haunting feeling that is like a grey ghost but can't be nailed down to actually 'what' the loss is.

The ending of any relationship (even a pathological one) is a loss. Within the ending of the relationship is a loss of lots of elements. There is a loss of the 'dream' of partnership or togetherness. The loss of a shared future together as well as the loss that maybe he would some day 'get it together' or actually 'love you.' When the relationship ends, so does the dream of being loved (even if he was technically not capable of truly loving anyone). There is a loss of your plans for the future--maybe that was buying a home, having children, or taking a big trip. There is the loss of shared parenting (if that occurred). Loss of income, loss of being touched or held. Loss of sex.

Although a lot of women may actually see a lot of these hopes and dreams as 'illusions' it still constitutes a loss and women are often surprised at the kinds of things they find themselves grieving over.

Some women lose their pets in the break up, or their house or career. Some lose their children, their friends, her relatives or his. Some have to relocate to get away from him because of his dangerousness so they lose their community, roots, and home.

No matter what it is you perceived you no longer have...it's a loss and when you have loss you have grief. People spend a lot of time trying to stay on the perimeter of grief--trying to avoid it and stay away from the pain. But grief is the natural way to resolve conflict and loss. It's the body's way of riding the mind and soul of ongoing pain. It's an attempt at rebalancing one's mind and life. Grief is a natural process that is GIVEN to you as a pain management tool. Without grief there would never be a way of moving thru pain. You would always just remain stuck in the feelings and would always feel the same.

Therefore, don't avoid grief. While no one LIKES grief it's important to allow yourself to feel the feelings and the pain because to suppress it, deny it, or avoid it will mean you will never work thru it. I don't know anyone who WANTS to live in this kind of pain.  There is only one way thru the pain of grief and that's thru the middle of it. There are no short cuts, quick routes or other ways 'around' the pain and grief. There is only thru it---like a wilderness. But on the other side of it is the promise of healing, hope and a future.

Don't judge your grief. What hurts, hurts. Even if it doesn't make sense to you (he was horrible, why am I grieving HIM?)- it's your body's way of moving thru it so let it. Get help if you need it- counseling, group, medication, a grief group--whatever it is you need.

Don't set a predetermined 'time' that you think you should be 'over it.' It probably takes longer than you think it will or you want it to. But that's how it is- grief takes it's time.

Grief can look like depression, anxiety, PTSD or a lot of other types of symptoms and sometimes it's hard to know where one starts and the other one ends. That's because often you aren't having one or the other, you are having some of both.

Journal your losses, talk about them, tell others, get help when you need it. (We're here too!!). Most of all, know that grief is a God-send natural way of working thru so you can move on.

[CZBZ]

This is a great article, Suzy. Thank you for posting it on WoN.

Sandra Brown verbalizes my own thoughts and feelings about the importance of grief. Even when (or maybe especially when) outsiders think we should be doing the happy dance or thanking god for delivering us from evil.   To outsiders who are unfamiliar with the huge losses we're facing, they can't even be reliable support during this process. They may want to support us and we may trust them to be able to do that but they simply do NOT understand why we are sad about losing an abuser, a loser, a pathological cruiser.

I put fairly heavy demands on my support system and could tell when my grief was 'wearing them out'. I could sense that they were worried about my mental health if I didn't pull out of the spiral soon, put on a happy face, and get my life back in order. But even knowing they wanted only the best for me, I simply could not STOP this overwhelming process that had been kicked into motion when the X-husbaNd left a giant hole in the center of my gut. It was like being shot with a cannon and then crawling off the battlefield with onlookers telling me to hurry up. They were getting bored waiting. And oh, by the way, if I didn't get a move on, they were gonna diagnose me along with the X.  

Finding a support system (which each person must BUILD for themselves) can keep us working through the emotional blast for as long as it takes. And it might take years, even if the relationship was short-lived. That's because the pathological person awakens any and all emotional wounds which we now have the opportunity to revisit and GRIEVE.

I don't believe our grief is only about the pathological which is another reason why it takes longer than we dare to think about. If you have established a safe support system for yourself, then even if you return six months later or a year or two years later, you will be able to endure the 'fall' a lot easier.

So think of Yourself and your well-being and network with people who understand the longevity and unpredictability of grief. This support group can be face-to-face or online or if you're lucky, family members and friends who have lots of patience and compassion...but treat yourself with kindness and integrate yourself with people now. A support group can take the edge of our pain just enough to keep us moving forward, not backward.

Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

Susy posted this article last year but it's well-worth a second read!

Hugs,
CZ

[Proud2B]

I like Sandra Brown's articles because she shows so much compassion towards the pathological's target. 

CZ,
I've seen the same thing - glazed over eyes - in friends who think it's time for me to move on.  That in itself can be very painful.

I think you make an important point about why the end of a pathological relationship can feel so out of proportion, and that is because it brings up old, maybe even pre-existing emotional wounds. 

Your insight is totally amazing, and I'm thankful for it. 

Proud2B

[MoreMyself]

I too have experienced comments from friends such as that it's time to get over it and move on.  What I really wanted and needed to hear was - take as long as you need, we understand.  At least here on WON we get that message from others who are going through it or have gone through it and it's one of the reasons I keep coming here, to deliver that message which I needed to hear myself but never did.  Because to attempt to deny grief or truncate it is, as Sandra Brown says, denying that it is a natural and healthy process that we need.  For me, grieving the loss of my relationship with my XN started a long time before we actually separated, when I began to understand he could not and would not ever be the husband and father our family needed.  So my grief was not a sharp spike but a slow climb up a big mountain of sadness.

[JennyWren]

Lots of women are confused as to 'whom' or 'what' it is they are actually grieving. Grief can seem so 'illusive' - a haunting feeling that is like a grey ghost but can't be nailed down to actually 'what' the loss is.

That`s it EXACTLY. I am grieving SOMETHING.....but don`t really understand what. I think that`s why I brood so much over what makes Ns tick...because I`m trying to get a grip on what was real...and what was not.

And then.....

To outsiders who are unfamiliar with the huge losses we're facing, they can't even be reliable support during this process. They may want to support us and we may trust them to be able to do that but they simply do NOT understand why we are sad about losing an abuser, a loser, a pathological cruiser.

At a time when I need to talk and feel understood more than anything....I seem to be behaving illogically to the world...I say my marriage was abusive...so....now I am out... why am I not dancing in the streets 24/7? It doesn`t make sense to the innocent onlooker. And that can be so isolating.

There is such a pressure to "Get over it" and "move on". NOTHING makes me more miserable than that attitude...because after a lonnnnng relationship with a man who invalidated my every emotion habitually.....it`s happening again with the "well....you must be so happy now" brigade.

I know people are only acting this way because it is all outside their experience. And abuse is not a fun thing to think to deeply on perhaps.


When this hits me....I am unlikely to be found dancing in the streets....and more likely smashing the asphalt.....with my head. 

[Legs]

Dear Jenny,

 I did the same thing for months...........was Lucifer lying when he said this? What he lying when he said that? Was he telling the truth when he said blah?

 I read a great article on the The. Internets. from a woman's blog (and now I KHAN'T) find it...but basically it said in dealing with truth vs. lies on the part if a n, the only thing you can really do is "discount it all."

Some people didn't understand that usage of the word because of them, "discount" had some to mean taking a percentage off a purchase price, but the author meant really to disregard anything the n said. ALL OG IT and soip making yourself crazy trying to figure out exacly WHEN they were lying. Because you are never going to know for sure. Just discount anything they ever said. I WISH I could find that blog entry...........it was tres fabulous. I want to say her name was Susan and she finally did meet a man she really loved and was not a jerk and damned if he didn't die from some weirdo kind of brain cancer.............


Legs

[CZBZ]

I know who you are referring to, Legs. Her name is Susan Elliot. This is the url to her website: http://www.gettingpastyourbreakup.com/gettingpastyourpast/

The only caution I have with Susan's site is that her main audience is not dealing with pathological relationships. Dr. Sandra Brown is a much better resource for our community. Susan Elliot aligns more with Vaknin's perception of partners, which is a common perception. I don't know that there's a one-size-fits-all for every partner-of-a-N, but I have not found in all the many years I've talked with 'victims', that it was useful to 'diagnose' her or him until time had passed outside of the N-relationship. And you know the hair-on-the-back-of-my-neck is gonna stand straight up if anybody tries to stick me with 'clinical codependence.' 

I used to read her blog faithfully and then one day, she wrote this horrible thing that went straight to my heart and I realized she was missing important information about pathologicals. She wrote, "Water seeks its own level." In other words, you find the partner that matches your psychological development, etc. etc. etc. which as Dr. Robert Hare and Dr. Sandra Brown have stated numerous times, is a dangerous belief to have. It's that very belief that got many of us in over our heads. For this reason, I haven't used Susan's articles very often...the last thing a traumatized victim needs to hear is that 'she' was pathological, too. That may be true in some cases but I believe, as a general rule, that more partners are 'healthy and stable' than not.

The following is a brief excerpt from Susan's website:

Susan writes: "I tend to disagree with studies I’ve read that healthy, stable people can find themselves in relationships with narcissists. Most healthy people would intuitively RUN from relationships with these people. I can see how someone can “seem” to have it altogether but has unfinished business or some other self-doubt that attracts a narcissist and the doubt grows and grows as a result of the treatment/abuse by the narcissist.

But a common partner of a narcissist is someone who is a perennial victim or martyr. Another common partner of a narcissist is someone who gets their self worth from the narcissist’s self-aggrandizing. In other words the narcissist thinks he or she is something special and the partner wants to be with someone special therefore they will be someone special. (complicated to describe).

However, there are people who are perfectly normal and reasonably happy who get sucked in by narcissists because they really haven’t been exposed to such crazy people and cannot fathom for one New York second that anyone is as crazy as narcissists are. This is more of a naive thing. And I’ve seen it in my own daughter who is a sweet, docile, trusting person who thinks all men are the wonderful guys that her dad was and her brothers are.  No matter what I say to her, she still takes lumps from this bananaheads.

Naive people are not terribly unhealthy but not healthy in the sense of having their people skills honed and ready. A very trusting, docile person can get involved with (and run over by) a narcissist. But even there the involvement reveals things that need to be worked on (naivete, for one). Smarten up, thicken the skin, put on your street smart glasses and refuse to be suckered in by a charmer.

Most partners of people with personality disorders are very codependent. I define them as “clinically codependent” (my term) even though there is no codependent term in clinical diagnosis this is my word for someone who needs aggressive intervention.

I find there are those who are everyday codependent, people who can read Codependent No More, go to a few CODA meetings, become very aware of their codep traits and change them. ~Source: Getting Past Your Breakup


Hugs,
CZ

[Legs]

I didn't read her blog anymore after she moved..it was sort of a hassle to sign in and there sure was a LOT of whining going on in the comments.............I know we all need to whine and b!tch and moan and groan sometimes, but please..........there is a difference in b!tching and whining, IMO. B!tching is perfecty fine...whining (to me) is all about doing the same stuff over and over again, not being happy with the results and yet continuing to do the same behavior and continuing to whine about it!


But I did like that article about not trying to figure out exactly when an n was lying and when they weren't.....I have sorted and shifted through 32 years of Life With Lucifer and finally stopped wondering why or how he could do what he did. I really did adore the thing I thought he was and pretended to be...............I guess they know if we ever saw their true selves, we'd run screaming for the hills. I mean, I know they would. No guessing about it.

I have enjoyed all the young 'uns talk recently about "black and white" thinking. I think as we age, it totally becomes black and white about a whole lot of things. We don't have the luxury of waiting around to figure it all out............so what if I miss out on a maybe good relationship when in doing so I have ducked having a dozen bad ones with other people just because I didn't wait and see how many times they would screw me over or expect me to do something that is outside my moral boundaries.


I wish so much I'd had a Mother or an older female friend to guide me and fill me in on stuff, but I probably would have scoffed and thought "she's too old to even get it...times have changed" I probably would not have appreciated it or even really been able to "hear" her.


Ah, the curse of old age.............you know but no one gives a crap!!! LOLOLOL

Legs

[loved2much]

Wow! Did I need this today!  How did you know how I was feeling?  Exactly how I was feeling...I am working out and staying busy but there are days... and today I was so depressed...and sad.  Thanks for the nudge/budge  I needed it!

[loved2much]

[NARCISSISTS HAVE NO ABILITY TO LOVE and NO ABILITY to EMPHATHIZE and NO ABILITY to be SORRY and NO ABILITY to CARE ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE WRONG TO YOU.
Source: Getting Past Your Breakup (http://s.tt/13aFj)

[CZBZ]

I woke up this morning and realized I had been a little 'hard' on Susan Elliot. I didn't mean to discredit her work if it sounded that way. Just 'cuz she and I disagree on a few points, that doesn't mean her work has no value. It can be so easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater and you don't even have to be clinically codependent to do that. hehehehehehehehehe

Elliot has written some fantastic articles that have helped a lot of people including myself. Especially when it comes to the cognitive dissonance we experience with narcissists. Wanting to be with someone who hurt you, makes you feel insane! It's contradictory and illogical. Susan yanks readers out of crazyville and this is her forte, do doubt about it. By the time you've finished reading one of her No Contact articles, your nerves are steeled for war (war with yourself really because that is where our battle resides).

But on the topic of NPD relationships, Elliot falls into the same league as many others who assume (because it makes sense if you think about it), that it takes two to tango. Or that water seeks its own level. Or that we meet jerks 'cuz it's the law of attraction don't you know, so we must have jerkiness deep in our unconscious souls and don't know it. ha! People spend so much time time figuring out 'why' we got mugged that I sometimes wonder if we're avoiding our grief. As long as you're focused on 'why', you're delaying acceptance in a way. Narcissists hurt other people because that IS the pathology. And we are ALL susceptible to narcissistic relationships that hurt us overtime. We do change while 'in' the relatioNship, I don't disagree on that point at all.

It has taken ten years for me to deliberately slow down my urgency to 'get over it'. I was compelled at first, to jump out of the starting blocks and race down the track, ultimately crossing the finish line in record time.  I dislike very very much, being pitied. I dislike relying on other people for support, facing my dependence and neediness. Self-reliance is a sign of godliness in my family. Finding myself face-down in the dirt with bootmarks on my back was humiliating. I not only grieved the loss of my husband, my family, thirty years of false hope and cognitive dissonance, I grieved the loss of 'me' and all the subtle ways I had put my husband and family's needs ahead of my own. There is just so much to come to peace with that sprinting to the finish line to please other people is like remaining IN the narcissistic relationship even when the N is gone! You are denying your true self.

I read a very cool metaphor for Healing in a 'self-help' book focused on dysfunctional families. It's called the Rubber Band Theory. Picture it this way: when you start a healing journey/grieving process, you put a stake in the ground with a rubber band around the stake and your ankle. Then you move forward and leap to the next hurdle and the next, even fooling yourself that you're way beyond the initial pain and sorrow and damn, you are just that resilient and strong and then WHOOSH, you're whipped back to the stake in the ground when the elastic stretched too far. I know this bypassing experience, too! I think in my head that I'm healed and then I go home to my dysfunctional family of origin and get Snapped Back to Reality so fast it almost gives me whiplash.

And I have this sense that most families are dysfunctional to some degree...how could it be otherwise? Take any person on this planet and put them in a narcissistic relationship and my belief is that they will react the same way 'we' reacted or at least similarly. (everyone's personality is different, too). Everyone has issues (I just wish everyone knew it and took responsibility for their issues, ha!!)

Whatever weaknesses you have, the narcissistic relationship will make worse and whatever strengths you have, the narcissistic relationship will call into question or flip them into weaknesses by the time you get out. This could happen to anyone. That's the part that's hard to accept---that despite your desire to create a mutually loving relationship, your intent was one-sided.  Your cooperation, even accommodation and forgiveness (values and beliefs we hold dear) were called into question or even pathologized. I felt as though everything I believed about the world, relationships, and myself was ripped out from under me leaving a permanent hole where my heart used to beat.

I think and maybe this is dramatic but, I think that we must also heal the damage done by a well-meaning but ignorant society. A society that heralds independence and vilifies dependence and yet, we are all dependent on one another. To pretend otherwise is crazyville, too.

By the way for any newbies on our board, I live a very contented life today. Lots of ongoing family drama to contend with but I know myself, my beliefs, my principles and values. So even a wild ride on the Christmas crazy train doesn't disorient me anymore. But even so, even re-creating my life at fifty, I will never "get over" what happened. I am however, learning How to live with it. 


Hugs,
CZ

P.S. We have a beautiful article that has been reposted many times on N-forums. It's in our Writing a Wrong section of the forum. You can read it by clicking here:

Grieving a Narcissist by NickySkye

[Legs]

We could talk forever about the n..what makes one, what kind was yours, why do you "attract" them. In my case, I believe Lucifer chased me down because I was cute and competent and multi-talented, creative, hard-working, trustworthy, wasn't afraid to tackle anything plus I was a great cook, good housekeeper and an old-fashioned "wife." I even darned socks for Dog's sake. I was very social, I was the life of the part, I gave great parties and dinner parties but most of all, I adored the person he pretended to be. I would have done anything for him and I did.


That's why he chose me, plus I was greiving the death of my first husband, vulnerable and my 15 year history with Lucifer and his family made him seem "safe", plus I never saw the real side of Lucifer for 30 years...not until his secret life began to be revealed in bits and pieces.


I was a prize, a trophy, and a hot dish, smart as hell and compassionate by nature with a really good sense if humor and a sunny disposition. He said I was a half full and open book kind of gal. I trusted him 1,000% and if anything, I was entirely too good for him.

So, I'm just saying that while water maybe have sought it's level in some cases...he was widowed as was I, he was a professor and scientist, as was my beloved first husband, he was appreciative of my talents, he said he thought I was beautiful (and I'm not, but I was damn cute for my age and still am...


Completely OT: I went for a tour yesterday of our new detention center and later the officer called me (a woman) and asked me a few more questions and asked  me straight up how old was I? She had my 38 page personal history, and I said I graduated form HS in 1970 and I was sixty. She said she had done the math and wondered if I graduated when I was 10 or something because she said she would never have pegged me for over 45 at the very most. I had on a little powder and some eyebrows. But I digress.....I just have great skin courtesy of my gran.


I liked Lucifer because I thought he was smart, he had a cute accent, he was very courtly, he called me Princess (he called all his women that so he didn't have to remember our names) and he pretended to like everything I liked. So in a way, water did seek it's own level.....or it seemed to. It's the pretense that makes it seem that way..if I had ever known what he really was, I'd never have given him a second glance. I was trusting and he was a huge liar, so really it was more like a liar seeking a trusting person rather than that two equal things seeking their own level.

But like we always say here about everything...take what you need and leave the rest. It was really good for me to read Susan's "discount it all" article when I was puzzling over "when Lucifer did lie and when he told his bizarre version of the truth"...I was never going to know, so :::::poof::::: I didn't have to try and figure that out anymore....I spent so many months and years trying to make sense of the whole thing.I still so find myself wondering "how could he DO that to me" and it's like that story of the scorpion riding on the duck's head or whatever animal it was that could swim........he bit and poisoned his support because that's what scorpions do even if he knew he would drown too............it's their nature.

Legs

[Imogene]

I don't know, CZ.  I think it's important to figure out why, as long as the answer isn't some variant on "I am wrong/damaged/unworthy."  I was talking about this in therapy my last session, how much my mother and X are alike, even though ostensibly they could not be more different as people.  That's a powerful why.  It helps me to understand why I was stuck in this marriage, and deeply unhappy, and assumed that I was the only one to blame. 

But I agree with you in the sense that this issue should not be explored without first receiving tons of unqualified support and validation and the recognition that, no matter what your personality is, you did not deserve to be discarded and abused.  I also think there are cultural and social issues that should not take a back seat to the psychological.  For instance, it is wrong to abandon one's family.  A counselor who ONLY wants to explore the interpersonal dynamics (the "why") without acknowledging the failure of a narcissist's moral integrity does the victim a disservice.  Moral integrity may be all she has and the only thing he can't take away from her, and to say that morality doesn't matter is a big slap in the face.

There is also the nature of personality disorder itself.  This is something I've discussed quite a bit in my individual therapy.  The victim does play a role.  Many of us on the board, yourself included, are ACoNs.  But that's not the same as saying "it takes two," either.  Whether the marriage could have worked if the narcissist were not disordered is an open question.  We have some maladjusted behaviors that come from unresolved family business.  What is generally clear, though, is that in another relationship we would have worked hard for the sake of our children and a shared life to go forward, and that option is not possible with the pathological narcissist.
   

[CZBZ]

"It was really good for me to read Susan's "discount it all" article " ~Legs

If you feel up to it (or if anyone else is familiar with Susan's work), I'd love to provide an excerpt and link to that article, Legs! Susan has relaxed her 'copyright' controls a little bit, allowing articles to be reproduced as long as proper attribution is given. So let's locate that article and stockpile it in our library. Then people can find Susan's blog. We need a variety of approaches on our site. 

"I think it's important to figure out why" ~Imogene

Yes. All things in their own time and maybe i should add, all things in their proper place. There's a support community and there's a therapist's office.

I've witnessed a lot of damage done in support communities who push members too far and too fast. In the beginning, most 'victims' are destructively self-blaming and prone to nincompoop ideas like the law-of-attraction (we were asking to be hurt, or we were magnets for abuse). Our thinking is not very clear at first because we are overwhelmed with cognitive dissonance, emotional pain & loss. We aren't sure who owns what by the time we break away from the narcissist's projections and enmeshment. On this forum at least, people don't arrive asking questions about pathological relationships until they have been ambushed, betrayed, rejected and/or abandoned. We are traumatized and wounded---no time to be navel gazing really. (no offense intended...nobody stares at their belly button wound more than myself!)

I think time and compassionate listeners is what each of us needs...time to feel safe in our own skin before we can discern what is true for us and what has been projected onto us. In some cases, the only place to do that is with a professional counselor. Cyberspace communities are amazing but they have their limitations.

It felt better to tell myself 'why' I ended up in a bad marriage because it restored my sense of power. I realize that until people take responsibility for their own lives, they are stuck in victim  mode. But the problem to me is that we take on illegitimate responsibility or over-scrutinize our past. We're also focused on figuring out  'why' as a means to self-empower (protect us in the future); and we may want to defend our Just World Hypothesis of cause-and-effect. Just to name a few...

But I think as time goes on and we find camaraderie with fellow veterans (ha!), we will slowly take legitimate responsibility for ourselves. I had to get through the initial footwork protecting my bank account and future and my sanity first. My focus was on the rat bazturd and how far he might go to destroy my life and 'why' I stayed with him had to be put on the back burner.

"We have some maladjusted behaviors that come from unresolved family business."

Yes! Absolutely! What is interesting to me is that the only people who say they did not have unresolved family business or immature behavior, are kinda narcissistic.

I remember when John Bradshaw was mocked for saying all families were dysfunctional, it was only a matter of degree. This was way back in the late eighties when I was working through my childhood issues (of which there were many and still are  ). Well, of course families are dysfunctional in hindsight. Times change. What was acceptable to Grandmother is not acceptable today. We will always (if we are conscientious) criticize our past in the hopes of improving our children's future. So anyone who believes their family somehow managed to escape the human process is only fooling themselves.

But yes, as an ACoN, I do understand that some people are lucky enough to grow up with parents who mature as they age. (I have to be cautious with my tendency to 'idealize' other families that appear to be more perfect than my own). My point being that no matter who gets in a N-relationship and suffers 'loss', there is unfinished business in their past that can be examined and healed. We were all conditioned by our culture/society...the old idea that a woman must submit to her husband used to be 'normal' but is challenged today. I found (and this may not be true for others), that I pathologized myself for sticking around so long when actually, I was an intelligent child who learned her gender lessons well.

I dunno...maybe this topic is too complex to address because it is so subjective. I think though that if we are self-reflective and introspective people, we will continue to understand why overtime. We'll change our behavior to fit our new environment which is hopefully 'free' of pathological narcissists and toxic people. I think this is one thing we learn from a healthy support group allowing us to adjust to a non-blaming relationship---gentle self-probing without condemnation has always worked best for me.

You know, I find my patterns and automatic reactions have changed without conscious awareness! Suddenly I'm in a similar situation as in the past and I no longer react to old scripts. Because I began my ACoN work in 1989, I can say without hesitation that deep healing is longterm, so pace yourself.  All things in good time.

This is a great conversation. I appreciate everyone's comments.


Hugs,
CZ

[alatariel]

I needed to read this today.  I needed to find out why I'm still "renting head space" to the troll, when I haven't had any contact with her in almost 6 months.  I've been thinking that I should actually be happy that I did make the decision to get rid of her, and not give it another thought, and move on and be over it already.

But this was probably the most pathological "friendship" I've ever had, and certainly the first one with someone who truly has NPD, as opposed to just being a small-n or a garden-variety-jackass.  And, she did put me in the position of being her girlfriend/partner (w/o any of the benefits).  Regardless of her projections, that was not a role I assumed for myself.  I do know the difference between friendship and romantic interest, I am aware of the boundaries involved, and I wasn't the one who crossed them.

In light of that, though, it makes sense that ending the "friendship" is the same as any breakup.  I lost someone who was involved in my daily life.  The continuity is gone.  The remote hope that someday I might be part of her "inner circle" is gone.  The BFF I tried to convince myself that I had is gone.  And it's no wonder I need time to grieve.

[Legs]

Dear CZ,

 I don't have that article on this new hard drive, but if you do, it might be good for some folks..Jenny seems to be spinning around in that place where she's trying to get a grip on the lying.........the lying was HUGE for me because while I'm a pretty good embroiderer of the truth, I am a stickler when it comes to the "real" truth. I don't mind exaggerating a story to make it funnier but when I do, I rolling my eyes and shaking my head no and everyone KNOWS I'm kidding. I had never known someone I loved and trusted completely to be able to look me straight in the eye and lie to my face and swear on his grandchildren's lives, etc...

 So if you can latch on to that "discount it all" article (I think that's the phrase Susan used) it might be good for some other people..maybe not, but it sure cut to the chase for me.

I want to say again too how you rise and fall with this stuff and move ahead and then find yourself right back at (almost) the beginning some times...that STILL makes me crazy...I'll start to feel sort of strong and normal and then some stupid song will play or I'll see part of a movie or something or just have a memory or have yet another person tell me some crazy thing they heard about me (from Lucifer) and I get mad or sad or pissed all over again....I do have the pleasure of knowing that his life as he knew it is over and so is mine, but mine MIGHT conceivably be decent again or even if it's not, I'll never have to suffer the shame and humiliation that he suffered and I'm SURE that he has because he has gone so far out of his way to make me look like the bad person in this.

So this week I feel pretty decent in the head but I feel very weak and tired and just not "all there" physically. I think it's part of the aging process..I just can't do what I used to could do for as long as I could do it. I totally get the the seesaw/rollercoaster thing and it sucks...two steps forward, sometimes ten back.


I'm changed and still mad about the whole thing, but most of my anger now comes form the "legal" system and I plan to fix a few people's wagons in that arena, or at least do my best....all I'm really going to do is make public the dirty dealings that they did. If they don't like it, too bad...if it's too hot in my kitchen, then they neve should have come in.

Lucifer and a few of his "friends" are getting the recognition that I think they should have right now and while I keep thinking I should feel a little guilty for upsetting their apple cart to such an extent, I really don't give a crap how much it ruins their little world. I am having fun using their own stuff to drag them down. hahahahah....I love to imagine what might be going down right now in some people's lives~~~


Legs, Mean Girl

[CZBZ]

Here it is: Discount it All by Susan J. Elliot

I love this article, Legs! Thank you so much for recommending it. 

Hugs,
CZ

[Never again]

That's a great article and very helpful for me right now. Thank-you.

And this is a great thread too. It touches on several issues I've been mulling over recently. I've been having a kind of ongoing discussion/disagreement with my therapist about .. I'm not really sure what to call it .. 

Anyway, she seems to be pushing me to 'forgive' Gobi Shiite (it's a year now since I left him for the last time), and I don't want to, and have told her so. She has said that if I can't forgive him, I won't be able either to forgive myself for falling for him in the first place and for sticking it out with him for so long (six years total). She considers me to be generally very tough on myself, very self-critical, and has suggested that beating myself over the head for having been with such a bastardo is all part of that. She's not suggesting that I contact him to forgive him, just forgive him internally, if you know what I mean.

The way I see it, as I've told her, is that it was the fact that I was so 'forgiving' or 'understanding' or 'tolerant' with him that got me into trouble in the first place. I saw so many red flags from the very start, but I discounted them, to borrow a word from Susan Elliot, or I underestimated them. I saw the manipulations and the jerking me around and the disrespect and the demeaning, and I called him on practically everything (that made him angry, which over time made me increasingly angry too - it was a very turbulent relationship), but it took me six years before I finally grasped that these things weren't exceptions to his character, they *were* his character. And that was when I ended it.

In other words, I eventually 'discounted it all'. The way I've been describing it to my therapist is that I've realised now that there are people in the world who have more 'bad' in them than 'good'. By bad I mainly mean self-centered, dishonest, opportunist and uncaring for others. I visualise them like a weighing scales where the bad outweighs the good. And my intention now is to tar such people overall with the bad brush - even if they maybe have some 'good' in them - and discount them. Once the bad outweighs the good, they're over for me. If I can't cut them out of my life entirely (work, family obligations, whatever), I certainly don't intend to trust them or respect them.

Well, my therapist keeps nudging me back towards 'We all have good and bad in us', 'Gobi Shiite's behaviour wasn't necessarily intentional, he was a damaged individual'. I know these things, they're true, but they're not the point for me. I know I'm not all good and never have been, but I know too that I *strive* to be good. I care about making the 'right' decisions and doing the 'right' thing by other people. I feel bad when I realise I've hurt someone else, even if it was unintentional. I'm like that no doubt because that's the way I was raised - in a very religious environment that taught these values. But as an adult I've also come to conciously hold these values. In fact, even though I have no religious faith now, I still believe deeply in doing the 'right' thing, which, when it comes down to it, I define in terms of 'what I do unto my neighbour'.

In other words, I agree with what Imogene said above. I think there's also a moral component to the whole question. Lies and disrespect aren't physical abuse, but they still hurt (I know I don't have to tell that to anyone here ... ). I'm no sociologist, but as far as I know the general consensus among academics/scientists is that what humankind has come to regard as 'morally wrong' over the ages are all those behaviours that are not conducive to healthy society, i.e. getting along with and cooperating with each other and therefore surviving as a species. And there's no question but that how Ns behave to other people is hurtful (and psychologically damaging! I'm thinking of the ACoNs, too, of which I'm probably one too ..) and therefore not conducive to healthy human relationships and therefore should be condemned outright.

I think I'll ask my therapist next week if she would still be encouraging me to forgive him if he had been physically abusive. Not that I want to spend my time wrangling with her, and I'm very happy with her otherwise, but this thing is niggling at me.

Anyone any opinions?

Never again

[alatariel]

I saw so many red flags from the very start, but I discounted them, to borrow a word from Susan Elliot, or I underestimated them. I saw the manipulations and the jerking me around and the disrespect and the demeaning,...but it took me six years before I finally grasped that these things weren't exceptions to his character, they *were* his character. And that was when I ended it.

Wow, you pretty much summed up how things went with the troll.  The only difference is that I wasn't strong enough to deal with her anger, so I rarely called her on her shite.  But, yeah, when I realized that her entire character was made up of manipulations and disrespect and contempt for others, and that her overriding philosophy of life was "the end justifies the means", that was it.

And I agree about the question of morals.  No matter what, if any, religious belief you follow, they all set out a code of conduct to allow us live with other ppl in relative harmony.  And they pretty much all tell us that "the end justifies the means" isn't the right code.

N's are morally bankrupt.  Not just b/c they hurt ppl, but b/c they really don't care that they hurt ppl b/c other ppl aren't real to them.

[Never again]

Wow, you pretty much summed up how things went with the troll.  The only difference is that I wasn't strong enough to deal with her anger, so I rarely called her on her shite. 

I dunno that I called him on it because I was strong. More because I was naive .. convinced we were following the same moral code .. I thought that gently* pointing out to him that I felt hurt when he did xyz would immediately lead to 'Oh, sorry, love, of course I shouldn't have done that'. Silly projecting me.

N.
* I pointed it out less and less gently as the years passed ... something I still feel terribly ashamed of.

[Imogene]

Never Again,
I wonder if you would feel more comfortable if the whole "forgiveness" issue could be reframed as "seeking detachment."  Forgiveness has such strong moral connotations--speaking of morality--that I've never found it useful in dealing with character disordered people.  Why?  Basically for what you describe in your response to alatariel, the gentle (or not so) reproach that you are hurt and expect some compassionate reaction.  You absolutely WILL NOT get that from a cluster B.  You will be vilified for suggesting that they hurt you.  We all know this "blame the messenger" tactic.  It is classic.  The question becomes, "How can I forgive, when I have never received an apology?"  I can't.  I realized that long ago, dealing with my narcissistic family.  However,  I can detach.  And with enough detachment, the person loses their hold, and I can let go. 

This method works for me.  It has allowed me to interact with my narcissistic mother without feeling triggered by her.  I have compassion, even (really) for the pain her disorder brings her.  With X, I assume it will also work in time, but his behavior was so dastardly that I'll give myself years to detach while maintaining the minimum of contact required to share custody.  But forgive him?  Never.  If he were a person whom one might forgive, we would be in marriage counseling working on our issues so that my daughter could have the nurturing childhood she deserves.  How do I forgive that he fell in love with her and is using her to meet his emotional needs instead?  Maybe she will be able to forgive as an adult, in her therapy.  But that will be her decision. 

[Liftedup]

women lose their pets in the break up, or their house or career. Some lose their children, their friends, her relatives or his. Some have to relocate to get away from him because of his dangerousness so they lose their community, roots, and home.

or they move away from their community, roots and home for the jerk.

I feel like I have lost everything and it isn't just him who took it all away but N mother and N relatives who cut me out more and more.

No matter what it is you perceived you no longer have...it's a loss and when you have loss you have grief. People spend a lot of time trying to stay on the perimeter of grief--trying to avoid it and stay away from the pain. But grief is the natural way to resolve conflict and loss. It's the body's way of riding the mind and soul of ongoing pain. It's an attempt at rebalancing one's mind and life. Grief is a natural process that is GIVEN to you as a pain management tool. Without grief there would never be a way of moving thru pain. You would always just remain stuck in the feelings and would always feel the same.

I think my grief is very very bad lately including over a death of a friend a year ago.

I just lost another friend where I had to end a friendship for being TOXIC and it has felt very bad.

I just never see anything getting better. It just seems to get worse. The money problems, the health, I am blamed for everything and there are endless expectations even from the world Ill never measure up to. I believe in God but do not know why I am being left to suffer so much or what I am doing wrong.

I am grieving that I never had a good life or let me say, grieving what my life has turned into. I no longer have the resilancy of youth.

Grieving what my life has turned into and that includes severe disability by age 28.

[Never again]

Thank-you, Imogene, you've got where I'm coming from. I have no objection to detaching in time, in fact I can't wait for that to happen. Someone wrote here recently something like  'one day the N will simply have become irrelevant' - I look forward to that day. I don't actually want to be carrying anger and hurt and bitterness around with me for the rest of my life.

But forgiveness is another matter. And I think my allergic reaction to my therapist's use of the word also has to do with what you said - How can you forgive someone who has never apologised? In fact, he used to demand forgiveness from me without ever showing remorse. What a joke.

I've managed to achieve a degree of detachment from my N-ish mother too. There came a moment when I suddenly saw that her behaviours were actually all about defending herself and not really directed at me at all. Since then I've been a lot less hurt and frustrated by her, which makes for a happier existence all round :-)

But you speak of detachment as a method that you use. Can I ask how exactly you do it?

[Chime]

sorry -- what's an "ACoN"?
thanks
Chime