underdeveloped healthy narcissism

[LDW]

I liked this book extract from The Destructive Narcissistic Pattern by Nina Brown. It still helps me a lot in understanding my own pitfalls in dealing with narcissistic people. Hope it will be of help.

The Destructive Narcissistic Pattern - Nina Brown

All of us are narcissistic, and co-narcissistic, to varying degrees. When our self-esteem varies in relation to how others think and feel about us, we are experiencing a narcissistic vulnerability. When we feel guilty or anxious because we fear that we are not meeting someone else’s needs or expectations, we are being co-narcissistic.
 
It is important for people with either narcissistic or co-narcissistic problems to come to believe that they have intrinsic value, independent of their accomplishments or what others may think of them.
 
You may have some aspects of yourself that reflect underdeveloped narcissism, although these may not reach the level and extent to be categorized as a DNP. Even if you have a few of these, you can work to increase your healthy adult narcissism.
 
Taking Care of Others
Do you have a strong need or desire to take care of others, especially those who are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves? Do you rush to soothe when others become upset, or go out of your way not to do or say things that might get them upset? ... You are overly caring for others and are putting yourself in a position to be exploited and manipulated. You may have an unconscious, faulty assumption that others are relying on you for their well-being, but this is seldom the case for adults.
 
You may also have the faulty assumptions that if you care for others, then they will care for you... What can you do? It could be helpful to give up the fantasy that if you care for someone, they will then care for you. It's nice when that happens, but letting go of the fantasy and expectations can give you a more realistic perspective... A little detachment and rational thought can do wonders.
 
Trusting Others
If trusting others to have your best interest at heart is one of your characteristics, you are leaving yourself open to disappointment, hurt, manipulation, and other dangers.
 
Maintaining Harmony
When you give in just to maintain harmony, you are doing yourself a disservice by subjugating your believes, values, principles and even your best self-interest.
 
Reading Signals
Are you constantly alert to nonverbal signals that provide clues to what others want or need, in an effort to make sure you don't miss anything? Do you try to read others and anticipate their wishes? Is this behavior such a part of you that you are not fully aware of it?
 
Being Helpful
The important point for this item is the part about seeking out ways to be helpful. In other words, you are not just helpful, you look for ways to be helpful... You do not allow others to solve their own problems. You rush to provide assistance because of your need to be helpful. Your hungry DNP capitalizes on your feelings and assumptions and induce guilt and shame by even a suggestions that you did not do what you were supposed to do; that is, seek out ways to be helpful to him. You may want to try an experiment and wait for your help to be requested.
 
Sensitive to Criticism
You may be so sensitive to criticism that you jump to respond defensively whenever your partner criticizes you. Sad to say, but you will never find a way to prevent or eliminate your partner's criticizing remarks. No matter what you do, changes you make or attempts to make will make her aware of the hurt you experience when criticized. Your partner will continue to make these critizing remarks. Your reaction only contribute to your distress. Instead of trying to get your partner to stop criticizing you, you may find it more helpful to explore your reactions and make changes there. Building your self can help you be less sensitive and hurt when criticized.
 
Attending
Boundary strength is what protects you from external assaults, such as projections, and from internal assaults such as having guilt and shame triggered. One quick and simple step you can institute is to reduce the times when you are attending to your parnter.
 
Others are:
Don't allow eye contact
Orient your body away from him
Put slightly more physical space between the two of you, and pay only partial attention.
Save the full attending for those times when communications are more satisfying and pleasant. Make a practice of not attending fully until you are sure which way the interaction is heading: Ask him: 'What's your question for me'?
 

 
What can you do when facing criticism or blame? ...For the immediate future, you can do one or more of the following:
 
Employ your emotional insulation
Appear to agree with the comments
Deflect the course of the conversation
Refuse to react with hurt or shame
Say you'll do better next time
Focus your thoughts on your strengths
Withdraw
Think about something else.
 
Don't get mired in the distressing feelings that were aroused and don't openly express your feelings of guilt and shame. That will only reinforce your partner's negative perceptions and comments.
 
Destructive Narcissists categorized as "Manipulative" are particularly prone to use misleading statements and lies. Do they know they are lying? Yes. But, they feel they have the right touse any means available to achieve their ends. Further, some will have an assumption, much like that of "Suspicious" narcissists, that everyone is lying, and thus lying is fair play.... Unfortunately, the only strategies that will help you are those that require you to become suspicious and disbelieving. You cannot trust that your (ex)partner is truthful or accurate, and you have to be skeptical and verify their accuracy.
 
Do Not Confront
Regardless of how you define confronting, it is in your best interest to make a practice of not confronting your DNP. You've probably tried it in the past, and it did not work to your benefit or satisfaction. The truth is, it will never work.
 
Acceptance
Your situation will become more tolerable if you can bring yourself to accept your partner as is. This may seem trite and redundant, but part of your distress comes from unsuccessful attempts to change your partner.
 
Abandonement and Anxiety
This is a deep-seated fear that never goes away, but can be controlled. Your partner may manifest this fear by becoming very anxious when you are unavailable... Your major strategy will be to recognize and accept that your partner has this deep-seated fear and need and that neither you nor anyone else can do enough to eliminate them... Your needs and feelings are also important. Try to give as much as you can, but stop at the point when you feel that what is being asked of you is an imposition.
 
People with Destructive Narcissistic Patterns have their personal needs as a top priority at all times. They are considerably self-absorbed, cannot imagine being any other way, and are convinced that everyone else is just as they are... If you are in a relationship with a manipulative DN you have encountered your partner's cheating, lying, distorting and misleading. Your partner sees nothing wrong with these behaviors and attitudes, and is not about to change. Your confrontations and challenges do not work. You may be at the point where you are very frustrated, don't know what to believe or expect, and are at a a loss to know what to do about it. Talking out your concerns with your partner does not work. You really need to come to terms with the reality of your relationship and your partner's behaviors and attitudes. Your partner is unlikely to change. This is a hard concept to acknowledge and accept, but it is the reality. You probably become deeply disappointed each time you are faced with your partner's cheating, lying, distorting, and misleading. There may also be some frustration, anger, dismay, and hurt that your partner would treat you this way. However, these are your responses, and these you can work to change.
 
"Putting Something Over"
Pulling the wool over someone's eyes and putting something over on someone describe the behaviors of conniving, manipulative DNs. These people are dedicated to taking advantage of others in any way possible in their search for reassurance or their superiority. They revel in their successes and can become very angry and hurt if you suggest that there is anything wrong in the tactics they use to achieve their goals... Unless you want to spend all or a considerable amount of your time thwarting your partner's efforts to put something over on you, you cannot win in this situation. You would have to be constantly alert, read ambiguous signals, gather a lot of useless information, and be ready to spring into action, but would still be unable to forestall or eliminate having something put over on you. Your best strategy is to understand that this need is really a cry for reassurance and that your partner will never receive sufficient reassurance to stop this behaviour. Don't comfort, chide, or try to show your partner another perspective. These behaviors just reinforce his need for reassurance. The best you can do is to protect yourself from any negative feelings that you may experience when your partner puts something over on you.

[Litha]

Thanks for posting LDW, I really needed this advice.

[eyes_up]

"People with Destructive Narcissistic Patterns have their personal needs as a top priority at all times. They are considerably self-absorbed, cannot imagine being any other way, and are convinced that everyone else is just as they are" ~ Brown

I made the mistake of thinking because I was caring and empathetic that every one else is the same. Well, not every one but certainly a partner.

Thanks for exert LDW. Lot of really good info in here especially this...

"It is important for people with either narcissistic or co-narcissistic problems to come to believe that they have intrinsic value, independent of their accomplishments or what others may think of them." ~ Brown


eyes

 

[CZBZ]

You likely don't even know this, LDW, but Nina Brown was the primary resource I studied before starting WoN. Her books about "Destructive Narcissistic Patterns" encompassed the whole continuum of narcissism, picking up where the DSM-IV left off. I figured out fairly early on that the minuscule percentage of people diagnosed with NPD (personality disorder) was only a small piece of the puzzle. The bigger problem was all those people who did NOT fit the 'criteria' but were nonetheless, very very destructive to other people's well-being. Even a couple of pathological traits can make a mess of people's lives!

I also like how she presents the work most of us need to do either during or after the N-relationship. Though I personally dislike the label "co-narcissistic" as much as I dislike the label "Co-dependent" (and for the same reason), realizing we will need to work on ourselves is a fact. However we wanna label it: co-narcissistic, co-dependent, unhealthy, immaturity, etc. etc. etc.

I'm glad you brought up her book, The Destructive Narcissistic Pattern (which is very expensive. I paid around a hundred bucks for my copy). She has also written many other normally-priced books to help people cope with narcissists and hopefully, guide them towards better ways of relating to or defending themselves from the narcissist's behavior.


"Do Not Confront
Regardless of how you define confronting, it is in your best interest to make a practice of not confronting your DNP. You've probably tried it in the past, and it did not work to your benefit or satisfaction. The truth is, it will never work. " ~Nina Brown

I was soooooooooo grateful to read an expert say this! It corroborated my intuition and experience with direct confrontation. So many other professionals were telling us that we needed to stand up to the narcissist because then he'd back down but in my experience, confrontation only escalated the situation. When Nina Brown wrote this, I exhaled with relief and her professional advice has underscored my advice.

I could go on and on about the valuable contribution Nina Brown has made to laypeople's understanding of narcissism. Perhaps some of her 'theoretical' work is now influencing changes in the DSM-V description of narcissistic pathology.


Hugs!
CZ

[SusyP14]

What a fantastic article and resource.  I think I have one of Nina Browns books, but have not gotten to it  yet.

Thanks for posting LDW ...wow you are really finding the BEST articles!!!

[BlueSky]

I have been reading Nina Brown's book, "Loving the Self-Absorbed".  It has similar info and has been helpful in unraveling what happened, plus its helping me get an idea of how to handle the exN in the future since I still have to coparent with him.  What I have liked about the book is the information on how our own personality traits (like being loving and caring) are taken advantage of by DN's.

I think the advice to not confront is so good!  The few times I tried to confront exN, it didn't go well.  Now I know why.  I've recommended the book to my psychologist - he's interested in getting a copy now.

[SydneyFireworks]

"Do Not Confront
Regardless of how you define confronting, it is in your best interest to make a practice of not confronting your DNP. You've probably tried it in the past, and it did not work to your benefit or satisfaction. The truth is, it will never work. " ~Nina Brown

~ CZ

It was usually impossible to confront Tosser, however hard I tried.  He would simply ignore me - he'd pick up his phone and make a call, or he'd interrupt me to say something completely off-topic, or he'd just walk away as if I hadn't spoken at all.  

On the occasions I did penetrate his barrier, I was always met with a furious rage.  But the rage would usually last no more than two minutes... then he'd switch it off and act like nothing had happened.

So I stopped confronting him... which of course was just what he wanted.

It's a no win situation - damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Hugs
Syd

[eyes_up]

Anything is confronting a narcissist.... even saying NO i don't like spaghetti even though you do is a confrontation. That is the feeling I got and knew on some level not to confront. Plead now and then but never really cross the line of I am a separate individual not your mirror. If I was not doing the correct mirroring then the mirror was broken. That is basically the process.Pretty simple when it gets down to it.

The best thing I learned to do is to get sick or injured. Then I wasn't responsible for holding the mirror 24/7. I wasn't working, toaster was in the repair shop etc .

Standing up was entirely difficult. That is why it was so difficult breaking up since a confrontation was in order. I had to do that so I made it about me and not the narcissist. This was just to keep out of the potential hostility. It worked. I dared to confront but not in order to change the narcissist ... not to get a point across. In the end I confronted in terms of making a final decision so that I would confront my fear and get away... flee. I fled the burning building not ask it to stop burning.

eyes

[LDW]

~I fled the burning building, not ask it to stop burning~ Eyes... Wow... Quite a metaphor !!!

CZ,

It strikes me how many therapists, psychologists, or psychiatrist have no idea on how the dynamics in a narcissistic relationship work. They think, like we all did for a long time, that there has to be a way to get your message across and that therefore YOUR ways of communicating should be altered. If that doesn't work they start wondering whether your hurt and anger are justified, maybe you have some innate masochistic need to be in an abusive relationship, maybe you enable your partner's abusive behaviour, only for you to be able to say: "See, what an *sshole he is!", while acting out your victim-hood...

I really did question my part in this terrible experience... but I can say from the bottom of my heart: I do NOT want to be abused, I certainly did NOT want to be a victim (!), I truly do NOT 'get off' on that... I simply had no idea what I was dealing with. And the only mistake I made was to try and figure out what was going on for waaaay too long. And yes, I differ from all the other people who would have fled the burning building hours ago, but I was trying to save my home, valuable memories etc. only to find out that the burning building was an 'air castle' which had only existed in my head.

I can still get very sad and upset thinking about it all...

[CZBZ]

"It strikes me how many therapists, psychologists, or psychiatrist have no idea on how the dynamics in a narcissistic relationship work. They think, like we all did for a long time, that there has to be a way to get your message across and that therefore YOUR ways of communicating should be altered. If that doesn't work they start wondering whether your hurt and anger are justified, maybe you have some innate masochistic need to be in an abusive relationship, maybe you enable your partner's abusive behaviour, only for you to be able to say: "See, what an *sshole he is!", while acting out your victim-hood...

I really did question my part in this terrible experience... but I can say from the bottom of my heart: I do NOT want to be abused, I certainly did NOT want to be a victim (!), I truly do NOT 'get off' on that... I simply had no idea what I was dealing with. And the only mistake I made was to try and figure out what was going on for waaaay too long. And yes, I differ from all the other people who would have fled the burning building hours ago, but I was trying to save my home, valuable memories etc. only to find out that the burning building was an 'air castle' which had only existed in my head." ~LDW


What a great message. I read it this morning and had to leave my computer but your words kept ringing through my mind. Yes, the narcissistic relationship is baffling and some of us have tried joint marriage counseling which was only MORE baffling to ourselves AND to the therapist (who likely didn't realize what he or she was up against). I recall the therapist saying to me after he discovered my husband had continued his affair while attending marriage counseling with me, "I am so sorry, CZ. I could not SEE it. I just could not SEE it."

I wasn't sure what the therapist meant by "IT" though I can make a fairly good guess today.

In typical therapy such as we received, both partners are counseled to be honest, more communicative, to listen to one another and speak openly. It baffled me to tell you the truth, LDW because I'm very much today the way I was back then: open, communicative, a great listener and generally broad-minded. Even forgiving. Still, the therapist made the assumption that our problems were caused by a Lack of Communication which is a normal assumption to make. I ended up feeling very confused...especially when the X kept saying I wouldn't OPen UP to him. To the therapist, that was enough to base his suggestions on---the assumption that I was a 'closed' person, withdrawing perhaps. All therapy did for us as a couple was hand my X more ammunition and keep me trapped in a surreal space taking more of the blame than warranted.

I appreciate your comments so much. You have written comforting words to those of us who've fought tooth-and-nail against being diagnosed as 'masochistic' or even 'enablers'. We've had a few psychologists who've joined WoN and worked with the rest of the group, restoring their sense of self AND sense of reality. They hurt just like the rest of us. They're shocked, just like the rest of us. They are confused, sick of being diagnosed as having something wrong with themselves, just like the rest of us. The one big difference I've seen over the years is that professionals are humbled because they didn't see the 'narcissism' earlier. The psychologists I've known on WoN will probably be excellent therapists for having gone through the same thing as their future clients. 


Hugs,
CZ

[eyes_up]

I must have gotten lucky because I attended therapy alone and the focus became about me and breaking up with narc maN.

I can recall telling my therapist things that were happening and even saying that I could quite put my finger on it but it just didn't seem right. He looked at me and said... so "it was laced" and that just said it right there. With that the ball was rolling in a new direction and we worked from that point forward.

Later my therapist told me he has an "anti social" brother. So, I think he was more or less aware of these types of disorders. I think that helped matters of spying out this kind of disorder. He also never told me that my accusation that the narc was a narc was wrong. He just told me he couldn't make the diagnosis but that didn't stop him from telling me that the person exhibited narcissistic characteristics.

As far as I am concerned if some one is working with the silent treatment that is enough to tell something huge. No one asks for the silent treatment. That is a clear cut choice and a choice not to communicate. Of course that wasn't all there was but I find a line in that function that can not be mistaken for any thing other than foul play/abuse ~ some one clearly not working on/for the relationship.

eyes

[CZBZ]

One more thing: as I recall, Nina Brown dealt with a narcissistic co-worker which encouraged her to write books about the Destructive Narcissistic Pattern. Am I remembering that correctly?? Perhaps a person never really understands, until he or she has to deal with "It". ("It" being pathological narcissism).


CZ

[LDW]

Yes CZ, N. Brown wrote the book because of a narcissistic co-worker who had accused her of some personality traits that would definately NOT describe her (so she was told by her husband). But she DID start to doubt herself.

Looking back on the message I wrote I must say that I do not want accuse any psychologist, therapist or psychiatrist of doing their job wrong, see... I'm in psychiatry myself and I still think it's 'healthy' to have some introspection, to thoroughly explore the grey area in which we all have our opinions and subjective truth... but when dealing with a Narc "leave elegance to the tailor" ;-) . I hope that the people my professional field finally will get "it" when helping future clients... The key is to disengage and to stick to your own intrinsic self value and healthy narcissism.

Thanks, SusyP, CZ, Eyes, Litha and everyone else for the support and understanding... you really have no idea how much this board helps me in getting through this horrible experience.

[CZBZ]

Dear LDW,

Perhaps I should offer more explanation to my comments, too. I hope everyone understands how much I value psychiatric research, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and therapy-all-kinds. I also highly value community support, someone to listen, validate, offer alternatives, and basically Care about each other's troubles---even when we cannot solve their problems. This is a tough space to be in, wanting to help but feeling out-of-our-expertise to help.

Over time, well---since 2002, I have witnessed a change in therapeutic treatment that includes looking 'externally', examining the dynamics of the relationship. More and more people are saying that the therapist 'tipped them off' about Narcissism. Therapists weren't diagnosing his or her partner with NPD per se; they were encouraging clients to learn about unhealthy narcissism and see if the information applied to their personal experience with someone who continued to do the same thing over and over without different results.

Most people, at least in my opinion, are willing to look at themselves, to take responsibility for not being 'perfect', and change behaviors causing problems in their relationships. Until information about 'narcissism' entered my realm of possibilities though, it was almost impossible to look at my partner as having mental problems because he wasn't the one suffering to the same degree as the people he influenced. I'm a 'shades of gray' person but in a strange way, I had to view my marriage in black-and-white. Maybe other people do the same thing?

I am pleased therapists are learning about narcissism and how other people are affected. It's daunting to tell anyone that your partner is driving you crazy without being accused of blaming.   They doubt your perceptions, and you doubt yourself, and that's when we get stuck and progressively unhealthy.


Hugs,
CZ
 

[LDW]

Yes, and in some cases it's the Narc who would suggest to go see a couples therapist: not to get help but to beat the therapist at his own game. 

[CZBZ]

Or (as some people have written), narcissists go to therapy to PROVE how nutz their partner is. They go to couple's therapy to ENHANCE their differences, proving to a partner that the relationship really is irreconcilable when even the professional therapist can't repair the relationship.

Therapy can be a Way OUT the door, assuaging the narcissist's conscience that he or she did everything they could to salvage the realtionships and it didn't work.

People often ask me, "Did the two of you attend couple's counseling?" See how that works? The narcissist, who NEVER INTENDED ON RESOLVING RELATIONAL PROBLEMS, can tell people, "Yes! We went to couple's counseling but gee, there were so many problems we finally agreed that the marriage was kaput."

LOL



Hugs,
CZ

[LDW]

CZ,

HUGE, HUGE, ENORMOUS insights... once again...

L

[LDW]

Even more amazing is the fact that when psychopaths do get exposed by someone who is not afraid to admit that they have been conned, the psychopath is a master at painting their victims as the "real culprits." Hare cites a case of the third wife of a forty year old high school teacher:

For five years he cheated on me, kept me living in fear, and forged checks on my personal bank account. But everyone, including my doctor and lawyer and my friends, blamed me for the problem. He had them so convinced that he was a great guy and that I was going mad, I began to believe it myself. Even when he cleaned out my bank account and ran off with a seventeen-year-old student, a lot of people couldn't believe it, and some wanted to know what I had done to make him act so strangely!

Psychopaths just have what it takes to defraud and bilk others: they can be fast talkers, they can be charming, they can be self-assured and at ease in social situations; they are cool under pressure, unfazed by the possibility of being found out, and totally ruthless. And even when they are exposed, they can carry on as if nothing has happened, often making their accusers the targets of accusations of being victimized by THEM.

I was once dumbfounded by the logic of an inmate who described his murder victim as having benefited from the crime by learning "a hard lesson about life." [Hare]

The victims keep asking: "How could I have been so stupid? How could I have fallen for that incredible line of baloney?" And, of course, if they don't ask it of themselves, you can be sure that their friends and associates will ask "How on earth could you have been taken in to that extent?"

The usual answer: "You had to be there" simply does not convey the whole thing. Hare writes:

What makes psychopaths different from all others is the remarkable ease with which they lie, the pervasiveness of their deception, and the callousness with which they carry it out.

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm