Im new to this site. With N for 4 years-married for a year and a half

[~Solo]

Hello all....

I just spent one hour typing my story and somehow I was logged out!  Talk about depressing!  I will have to repost.  If there are any tips with regards to that, please let me know...

I was writing today with regard to what is "reality vs. delusion".  There always seems to be a fog lingering that doesn't allow me to decypher!

I'm feeling very confused, empty and wish I didn't love my husband when he obviously doesn't feel the way I do 

~solo

[CZBZ]

Hi Solo!

First: when you log-in to the forum, the window offers two choices. You can log-in for a one-hour session OR you can stay logged-in. Tick the box to Stay Logged In. That way, your session will not be interrupted the way it was this morning. You can still log-out of the forum when you leave.

If your computer is safe, you may want to stay logged-in forever so that each time your visit the forum, you will not have to log back in. However, if you need to protect your privacy from another person, always log-out when you leave the forum.

"I'm feeling very confused, empty and wish I didn't love my husband when he obviously doesn't feel the way I do"

If you are feeling confused, empty and upset at yourself for loving someone who doesn't love you back, well, Welcome To WoN! You've found a safe place. If you are brand new to our board, take some time reading through the threads on our general board. You'll see that the way you are feeling right now is common to everyone else's experience.

Four years is a long time, long enough for a partner to 'bond' to us. Most likely, you 'bonded' to him and it's really a big shock to find out they are capable of leaving an intimate partner behind and hurting her in such a callous manner. Especially when she still shows affection and love for her partner. Narcissists do not attach/bond in the same way. I guess one of the first signs many people have that their partner is not who they thought he or she was, is their ability to leave--especially when they leave and tell us it's our own fault.

This is a particularly confusing time for everyone, Solo. Be kind to yourself though. The narcissistic relationship is extremely disorienting and unfortunately, most people blame themselves rather than putting responsibility where it belongs: the narcissist.


Hugs,
CZ

[~Solo]

CZBZ,

Thank you for our response.  The main problem that has fueled everything else is my husbands inability to be sexually intimate with me or even really pursue me in any manner of love, desire, playfulness, etc.  This was the complete opposite in courtship and the first 4 months.  It has really eaten away at me especially since I have been blamed for not trusting him.  I made the mistake of filling him in on my early life experiences of my parents.  My father was not an honest man with my mother.  He had many affairs throughout their marriage.  So, it's hard for me to trust.  If something looks wrong, I check it out.  My husband now says I hate men and don't trust...period.  I found porn use on our home computer one year into our relationship after telling him that would not ever sit well with me.  (When we got together I told him that would be a deal breaker.  Then again, he lied about being a smoker too.  I told him my father died at age 46 due to lung cancer and I had a big sensitivity to it (he's a closet smoker at home in the dark of night where no one can find out).  I confronted him about the porn (the scary thing now is that one of the pages on the computer were of what appeared to be someones personal profile nude pic) and I witnessed his first rage as he broke a rake in half and threw it into the field.  He promised me he would not do that anymore - the porn or the rage.  He became increasingly disinterested in our intimacy to my constant frustration.  Now, we have gotten to the point (after tiring years) where he admits to the porn use and says its a normal guy thing and he doesn't do it very often (only a few times a month).  His story changes a bit from time to time to "not in over a month", rarely, etc.  I don't know the "truth".  He never goes anywhere without his laptop computer and he travels out of town for work, sometimes often.  He's at the coast all this week.  We are on the verge of divorce and half my things are in storage.  He didn't believe me till I was due to sign the lease at another place two and a half weeks ago, then he was subtle about flashing the "Love and respect" book and claiming to read it and even went to counseling a few times.  He seems upset by my departure but angry at me at the same time.  So, I didn't sign the lease because he claimed to want to try (this is after months and months of cruel treatment...coldness, absence, late nights, alcohol, rages, verbal abuse and even slight physical).  I was so happy because he really was trying, but I could see that it was difficult.  Having sex (never making love from what I feel) with me the two times in two weeks was forced (and i'm a good looking person with compassion and love and even a sense of adventure!) and as is putting his arm around me or sitting by me.  So, here we are....there was a problem yesterday again when I tried to be close.  He said he had to go rent a van and be back in one hour to pack the van and drive to the coast to prep for a program.  He was getting upset by my subtle advance on him and he said he's be right back (i thought he was going out to the car and then coming back in to say bye) and I noticed 10 minutes had passed.  He was gone?  I called him and asked if he was going to his office.  He asked "why do I ask?"  I said I noticed both laptops were gone.  He hung up on me and did not make it back for 2 hours and 40 minutes.  My question:  Why do you need your laptop for a one hour trip of driving 20 minutes down our mountain, renting a van, driving back up the mountain for twenty  minutes then come back 2 hours and 40 minutes later?  He was supposed to have been in a hurry-didn't have time for me.  This is typical and btw, I was supposed to have left for the coast with him this trip.  I think it was because two nights before he had taken five hours to return from a two hour drive home from an event on the coast.  He had been drinking and smoking.  Oh and he had told me he wanted a divorce before he left that day because I wanted intimacy and I couldn't understand why he couldn't give it to me.  He became angry and divorced me yet again.  always threats..... theres always apologies too (usually after he has some physical distance from me).  I figure it to be like the reaction of an addict.  After he does something so crazy (be it rage, name calling, divorcing me, etc.) he blames me for it, then later apologizes which is completely mind boggling every time it happens even though I'm familiar with the cycle!.  Unfortunately for me, he is so handsome, charming and such an actor I have fallen victim again and again.  I'm lost in what reality is or isn't..... I love him and don't understand why when I write all this down and read it.  At times I feel stupid and at other times, I feel like I'm the one who has caused all this because I don't trust him.   

[CZBZ]

"My husband now says I hate men and don't trust"

You've already admitted to him that you struggle trusting men because of your childhood experience. Sounds to me like you're aware of your feelings and make an effort to extend trust when it's reasonable to do so. My concern reading your message is that he's using your 'weakness' to confuse you, even though he IS doing things that suggest he has something to hide. In a healthy relationship, a partner would overcompensate by being extremely open and honest to make sure his or her partner would not feel suspicious or anxious. Empathy for a partner, in other words, would mean taking their feelings into consideration and alleviating their fears. Not exacerbating them! If he isn't willingly doing everything he can to reassure you, that's a warning sign. When non-pathological people know their partner's weaknesses, they don't blame the other person for having weaknesses. What we try to do is be considerate of their emotional struggles and reassure them, through our behavior, that we are trustworthy...we are sensitive to their feelings.

Whether he smokes or not, even if this triggers your anxiety, is his choice. If you don't want to live with someone who smokes, then you have to make a decision. Trying to control his smoking is something most people would try (at least for awhile) but eventually, we realize that it's not our job to force someone to conform to what WE want. If he feels like he has to 'hide' his smoking, this only complicates the relationship in other areas. That's my sense, anyway. I see 'smoking' as a separate issue from the pornography and his sexual withdrawal from you.

Narcissists commonly withhold sex as a means to destabilize a partner's confidence in him or herself. Your husband may be withholding sex because he knows it is important to you as an expression of commitment and 'attachment'. It can be very painful to partners when they feel undesirable or rejected because sex is used as a 'reward or a punishment'. There's another reason why a partner might withhold sex, though:

Do you have an intuitive sense that he might be having an affair? Sometimes partners withdraw from their 'committed' partner in a bizarre way of thinking. They see themselves as remaining 'fidel' to an affair-partner. If he is having an affair and contemplating ending your relationship, he may be securing another partner prior to officially divorcing you. this seems to be a common way to exit the relationship and if this is what is happening, he may comply to having sex with you to keep you off-guard (reassure you of his commitment), but he will not be emotionally attached during the sexual act. More like a robot performing his duties. Perhaps that's what your intuition is sensing even though he is attending to your sexual needs?? He's there, but he's really not there...just performing.

From what you've written, he is acting in ways that are NOT trustworthy and then accusing YOU of distrusting him. Well, why would you trust him?? He isn't being open and honest about his behavior...he is doing everything to tell you he is not trustworthy and yet blaming you for believing what you see and not what he says. This IS crazy-making!

"coldness, absence, late nights, alcohol, rages, verbal abuse and even slight physical"

If you are being verbally abused or physically abused (even slightly), you need to take his aggression towards you very seriously. It sounds like he uses the THREAT of divorce because he knows it frightens you...he probably realizes you are fearful of rejection or abandonment (feelings from childhood) and so his threats of divorce cause you to react. When he does this, when he says he's going to divorce you, how do you respond?? If you become more compliant or silence your concerns about his behavior, you may see that his threats are a means to control you.

An abusive relationship is extremely complex and it's very hard to extricate ourselves from the 'intensity'. As odd as it sounds, an abusive relationship increases our 'attachment'. the more confused we become, the more difficult it is to think clearly and make a decision. When our emotions are all over the place, it's tough to even know what we think! We start reasoning with our emotions instead of logic...which of course, makes us feel pretty darn crazy.

One thing I do understand, Solo, is how hard it is to see the Abuse Cycle in a graph and then apply it to our situation.

You are not stupid and from the sounds of it, he is not trustworthy...because he leaves for long periods of time without soothing your anxiety and then accuses you of questioning his whereabouts. How Dare You?  He wants to do whatever he wants without your disapproval or questioning.

We all feel stupid and we usually feel as though we've caused the problems. Has he tried to stop drinking? Has he sought counseling for his anger? What has he done to protect YOU from his aggression? It doesn't sound like he's changed over the years but is becoming progressively worse as time goes on.


Hugs,
CZ

[~Solo]

Wow, thanks for your intelligent, heartfelt and speedy response CZ!  I don't know how you do it.  Looks like you are a busy person 

I very much appreciate some of the validation you gave me.  On the smoking plane, I'm really not bothered by the smoking-I was really more upset by the lie.  Why lie?  Actually, now I wish he smoked more due to the relief from anxiety.  He turns into a different person entirely..... 

I am pleased to have found this site.  Maybe with some more reading (I have done so much on line and books too!) and some faith I can break free from loving him.  I keep thinking he will all of a sudden change, but just the fact of the intimacy issue is enough to leave.  I'm very sad as I was ready to start a family but of course not in this relationship and not without first having more love to give.  It makes sense that I have become more attached due to confusion.  I feel like I have been raped in a sense.  If I don't leave now, it will just get harder 

Thanks again!  ~Solo   

[SydneyFireworks]

Hi Solo, and welcome,

I can only second what CZ has said, and hope you will read as much as you can, ask questions whenever you have need, and share as much of your story as you feel comfortable with.

Your H sounds a lot like Tosser (the nick I use for the N I knew) - he lied constantly about anything and everything, would 'pop out' and be gone for hours, and would take his appointment diary (he didn't have a laptop!) with him everywhere, even if just driving up the street to buy a newspaper!

As you read WoN members' stories, I'm sure you will see an awful lot of similarities with many of us.  There's a lot of comfort in knowing that you're not alone.

If I don't leave now, it will just get harder 

You're right about that!  And it's a positive that you don't have children with him.

Hugs
Syd

[~Solo]

SEFG and Syd,

Thank you for your responses and welcoming support.  As I'm sure you know, I am hanging on to these as a life vest right now.  I want to just leave today and lease the place I was going to previously.  The thing that has stopped me in past is thinking I was wrong and to blame, but I MUST keep going back to the lack of love and intimacy..... as that is enough!!

thanks to everyone....

[CZBZ]

You know solo, narcissists have 'distorted perceptions of reality'. They see the world through the eyes of a victim. Which means they See control and abuse where there isn't any. Which means they see their partner as an overbearing control-freak which may lead to hiding his smoking from you.

After you replied, it sounds to me like you'd rather he smoked openly than keep it a secret and LIE to you! So the issue is deeper than your attitude about his smoking, isn't it? He's pulling one over on you which makes him feel superior.

Each time he lights up and 'hides', it's HIS distorted perception that YOU are controlling him. There isn't much you can do to change his perceptions though---narcissists believe what they believe and nobody is gonna convince them their beliefs are distorted. We end up in huge arguments with narcissists, defending ourselves and trying to convince them that we're NOT who they say we are. Give it up. They believe what they want to believe despite evidence to the contrary.

Don't you think true intimacy is based on trust and reciprocal concern for each other's best welfare? Sex can be intimate and bonding but it can also just be sex. He's JUST having sex and you are 'bonding' which means you'll be hurt eventually. What you believe in your head is happening is NOT what's happening. You feel emotionally attached and he doesn't. The only place this will end up is 'inevitable harm' for you. Now even though you already know this, it's still hard to overcome 'feelings' that urge us to call the soon-to-be-x or boyfriend and try one-more-time....

We call that urge "N-dipping." Going back just to see if the relationship was as painful as we thought it was. And yup, the hot stove still blisters the palms of our hands.


Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

  Welcome to the board Solo. This board had been an enormous tool in my understanding this pathology.  CZ and all the moderators are AMAZING. You are among friends here. Leaving a N relationship is never easy. The only thing harder is living with them.

[practicaljude]

Hi solo,

I’m sorry to hear you’re going through this head-twisting; very possibly you are married to a man with NPD.  If not, you’re married to a manipulative liar who (it appears to be) has LOTS to hide.  When you talked about carrying the laptop around with him I got the shivers…the N I was with became “married” to my computer and later, his laptop.  It took a while but I found porn, other women nudes and eventually his nude sent to someone he was boinking.  Now, I was accused for a very long time of “being jealous.”  I was accused of not being able to trust men…(see below exert from the gas lighting thread.)


Finding the evidence…the receipts, the pictures, the email is so crushing.  I think a big part of gas lighting is how N’s use the layering effect.  What I mean is that they lie – tell us we are nuts – and it’s questionable so we give them another chance.  Then the next time they attempt to reinforce our shortcomings (lol)…”Remember the last time you didn’t believe me?  You’re doing it again?”  We apologize for our lack of trusting and then we find the evidence.  In quiet pain, we feel the betrayal.

N was a specialist when it came to gas lighting.  I once questioned him about what I felt was a lie.  He told me trust was something I would have to work on and I said, “I’ll keep working on it – it’s not too late.”  And he replied, “If you don’t trust me it’s already too late.”  Later, I found what I had suspected was true.  So, not only did he lie but turned it back to me as my problem.  Many times the entire relationship wavered on whether or not I believed him and he used it as a threat, usually saying it kindly.

You’re soul is talking to you solo.  Listen very carefully. Also, when you get a chance read about how an NPD’er acts when you are about to leave.  Sounds to me like you could write the book…abusive men don’t want you to go and they’ll charm you so you’ll stay.  It’s time to think and safeguard…also read about things you can do to protect yourself and keep your papers, sentimental items and valuables safe.

We’re here for you!  P.S.  Don’t tell him where you are going if at all possible.

 
Jude

[eyes_up]

Solo, Every thing that has been written above my response is absolutely 100% great information.

I wanted to add on something that helped me in terms of this love you are feeling for unhealthy partNer. What helped me even before I figured narc into the equation and before I finally ended the relationship was reading about relationship addiction.

This was a big deal at the time. I was really upset that I might have to label myself an addict.
But at the same time there is something interesting that happens in this kind of abusive sort of relationship that isn't necessarily apart of past relationships or other kinds of relationships.

so I got a book at the library. I chose the one that was the most dog eared. What it helped me to begin seeing is that this thing I was calling love... as in I love my freaky Boy friend was actually not love at all. There was something else happening that was being confused with love.

There was a feeling of great need involved and even desperation. Feelings were enormous and on edge. The intensity of the feelings were interpreted as love. Part of what I was in love with was what I was needing and not receiving but given small doses of. That is what is called intermittent reinforcement and that right there creates an addictive feelings and behaviors. It is a manipulation.

so I was on this drug not by choice but by years of needs not being met but small pieces of what I needed administered with perfect timing.

This so called relationship addiction was not directly what I read in the book BUT there was information on discerning what is love and what is not and how emotions operate in unhealthy relationships. That helped considerably when becoming emotionally saturated ... desperate and silently pleading or what ever else. It is to say that I became addicted (in love) through manipulation that was unseen. Like some one putting a droplet in a persons morning OJ but inconsistently or by means of a  certain pattern.

This is not to say that one doesn't love or is unable to love it is just that it gets skewed and distorted. Fiction becomes fact.

I think it took me and my therapist an entire year for me to realize I didn't really love this persoN for who they really are. It was a release from the trance like state due to intermittent reinforcement and other manipulations based on needs and vulnerabilities.

So now the way I look at it  is that I was addicted to the cycle. An extremely unhealthy cycle. When I got out of the cycle, I fell out of love. Plain truth.

(((hugs)))

eyes

[LDW]

~At times I feel stupid and at other times, I feel like I'm the one who has caused all this because I don't trust him.~ Solo

Oh Solo... I really hope you will continue to read this board and all the stories posted here. We've all been there. The N manipulates you into thinking this is all your fault. Narcisstically impelled people have a way of storing your deepest insecurities and secrets in their memory and they dig it up in a situation which is threatening to them and then use that information against you. This is soooooo typically N-behaviour!!!

I hope you will step by step unravel how the emotional abuse is keeping you in this situation and affects your (mental) health and what you can do to get out and stay out.

 

Good luck,

L

 

[LDW]

Cycle of abuse:

For many victims, it's difficult to recognize when a pattern of abuse has developed in their relationship. Instead, they often see abusive behaviors as isolated, unrelated incidents. Yet, abuse often happens in cycles, with abusive episodes interspersed with periods of calm, loving support, and affirmation—nurturing and caring that initially drew the two partners together.

Phase 1 - TENSION BUILDING:
tension increases
breakdown of communication
you feel the need to placate your partner

Phase 2 - INCIDENT
verbal and emotional abuse
anger, blaming, arguing
threaths
intimidation

Phase 3- RECONCILLIATION
partner apologizes, gives excuses, blames you
denies the abuse occured
says it wasn't as bad as you claim

Phase 4- CALM
incident 'forgotten'
for a little while no abuse is taking place


Back to phase 1

http://www.womensweb.ca/violence/dv/cycle.php

[~Solo]

Hello everyone:

Side NOTE with questions:  Demanding trust seems to be a running theme with an N.  Is that correct?  Also, Is there such a thing as varying degrees of this disorder?  My husband seems to be picking and choosing what he wants to own and says that he's not a full blown N.  He has even said that he just has tendencies....
Just how "normal" do must of us think it is that a husband looks to and uses porn? 
Most important question:  How do I respond to each of you individually?  I'm doing a bulk response 

I want to say thanks again for all the information and the manner in which you have delivered it to me.  I feel as though the trying to figure out what has gone on or wrong is not worth the emotional drain.  While I love my husband, I feel that what I really love is the "idea" of love and not what I have actually felt and created from long term mutual care for one another as CZ stated that love is.  Also, I still have that fond memory or "feeling" of how he was dialed into me with laser precision and larger than life show of love and affection for me in the beginning.  While I know it can never be "just like" the courting stage, I had hoped for a depth that built off of that.  Oh how I will never forget what I felt and said to him during courtship, "It's a long way down from here!".  I though I had died and gone to lovers heaven.  He must have been in his own heaven with all my validating him. 

CZ: regarding smoking.  I'm one of the very few who knows he smokes.  He feels shame about it but as you read previously, really I don't see the smoking as an issue any longer.  He can keep on...  He really hides that from the rest of the world.  No one know a lot about him.  He comes off as socially skilled and gracious, humble, clever, witty, entrepreneurial, easy going, oh-so caring about other people, competitive (he did the Ironman in November in Tempe), and all wrapped in a very sexy packaging, etc... I really could go on.  Then, inside our home, he is distant, anxious, self involved, seems to have ADD (he never fixed one thing in his home till I moved in 6 years after him owning it-we have put 60-70,000 into it), diverts attention to our three dogs with PLENTY of love and care for them.  I respond feeling lonely and ignored (at times I felt like I am wrong and that I'm a grown woman-shouldn't I be able to entertain myself?  He has actually said that.  Funny-I work and usually take three classes a semester, take care of the house and do a lot of hiking and gym going-u would think I'd be busy enough-but NEVER busy enough for him!).  I just realized entertaining isn't what I was looking for, it's love.  His interpretation is giving attention to me.  I've been said to be "needy".  I have never been a "clingy" woman.  I have always been somewhat affectionate albeit not big on public displays other than hand holding and smooches here and there.       

SEFG: Sorry you are still dealing with the confusion post N.  I can imagine this will be a process....
You said something about discard, devalue..  Can you expand on that?  I didn't quite understand what you were conveying there.  Also, yes, you are right about him not feeling.  I'm a piece of the pie to him.  He has admitted to (after therapy and seeing what it is that he has) not having that "bone".  Then he goes back to blaming for me for not trusting him again.  Empathy for me seems impossible for me (he can't seem to realize that EVEN IF he weren't doing what appears to be happening, it doesn't look good from my perspective and I should have unconditional trust for him) from him while he appears to be so sensitive to anyone else dealing with anything.  I guess that to be all part of the image they want to convey to the world to keep the ego supply coming in.  For the longest time, when we began courting and beyond, when meeting people, I had to hear repeatedly, "how did you catch him?", "he's so wonderful, you're so lucky!", "he's such a great guy!", etc....  No one is that good--no one.  Everyone is at odds in some way.  We are made different, but to him, he could somehow magically connect or know just enough about a certain thing or in many cases about many things that would have the other party looking at him like he were the perfect man.  He's even that good with other men.  However, there are friends that while loving him, they have known him for a very long time and they see that his life is crazy (always burning candle by both ends) and that he is not acting like a married guy (there is one couple that knows that-the husband married us and has been my husbands friend for a long time as has been his wife but now great friends with me.  They hope that someday my husband will look to God and change his nature-that's another topic).   

SusyP14:  Well said! "it harder living with them".  I can imagine the pain I will feel leaving him, but I know most of the pain is not being clear on the multitudes of things that I have been blamed for all the while getting just enough "tidbits" to keep me wondering how this could not make sense.

Jude:  Yes finding the evidence is heart wrenching.  I haven't been as "lucky" to find much.  My husband is very clever which makes me appear to be even more untrusting and crazy.  I found porn use early on and now to my recollection (I wish I have saved the images) there was one of a nude woman who was an average woman appearing to be from a personal profile of some sort.  I have read that N's can be cyberpaths.  He finally admitted a couple months back that he uses porn once in a while and that its a normal guy thing.  Unfortunately for women, normal non N's do use porn, so that is against our favor. He also has his own business and takes his laptop everywhere just "incase" he needs to do a proposal or reference old docs.  How do you argue that? Really, all I have to go on is his rejection and lack of desire of and for me which is unnatural and un-healthy.  However, even someone as myself who has been in this for four years and tortured emotionally, i still have the memory of a healthy love from my past. 

Eyes: Yes, I do believe that I have a sort of unhealthy aspect in this.  If I didn't, I would have already been gone two years ago.  He knows that too.  I have noticed some codependency on my part and even through counseling have found that I have some OCD stuff going on which makes me look like I am obsessed but from what I see, even a non OCD person would "ruminate" on this due to the normal mind not being able to comprehend the inconsistencies and the nonsense of it all.  I know if I continue to work on me, this will make a world of difference.  I think the devaluation of the N is the hardest to deal with.  I could walk and he'd justify his position leaving me feeling empty, but it will have to be done and I will heal from it.  I have to have hope.

LDW:  Thanks for sharing the cycle.  It was helpful and I have been on board so long now that I do see the cycle of our relationship.  It's funny how I have begun to look forward to the part of the cycle when my validation comes; his apology.  Of course, the cycle shifts again and always to my disbelief even though consciously I know this.  Like being a drug addict, you know that the down is coming and the sickness, but you wait for that to pass too until you get the high again. 

Great site-great help!  I thank you all and will stay connected!  I appreciate your filling me up in my time of need.  I hope to get to a place soon where I can give back 

[SusyP14]

My husband seems to be picking and choosing what he wants to own and says that he's not a full blown N.  He has even said that he just has tendencies.... Just how "normal" do must of us think it is that a husband looks to and uses porn? 

Jude:  Yes finding the evidence is heart wrenching.  I haven't been as "lucky" to find much. 

However, even someone as myself who has been in this for four years and tortured emotionally, i still have the memory of a healthy love from my past. 

Solo, Few Narcs I know will ever admit to being a Narc!!!  That would go against Narc rule #1, everything is fault of someone else.

Finding evidence:  If it were me, I would try to get some spyware on that computer that he has to have with him at every moment.  I think that sadly porn is pretty common, but I would think there is a whole lot more then occasional porn usage going on or he would not be so 'attached' to that computer.  I can tell you that prior to my n experience, I would have been aghast if someone had suggested spyware I would have thought it was a huge evasion of privacy, paranoid, etc.  But after he left several website 'open' at my house (we were not married), I know if I had had spyware I would have been on to his infidelities long before I was slapped in the face with exactly how unfaithful he was.

And much like yours mine seemed to be a supreme catch on the outside:  Very fit, good looking, highly educated, prestigious job, and oh by the way, a malignant Narc.  Not quite the prize I was hoping for.

[BlueSky]

Sorry if this gets to be too much of a ramble....

Porn use is fairly common these days and there are a lot of ladies who don't like it and so guys lie about it or have the excuse 'all guys do it'.  If a guy only did it occasionally, didn't lie about it, his partner was OK with it and a couple's sex life wasn't negatively impacted by it, then I'd say that it wasn't a problem.  Otherwise, it can be a big problem in many ways.  Not all porn users are addicted to it.  Some are.  Of the ones who are, some stay with the porn and others escalate into acting out IRL.

My exN had a problem with it in that he appeared to be addicted.  He would delete history on a regular basis, try to get me out of the house so he could view stuff, view stuff in the middle of the night, and after downloading child porn, he reformatted the hard drives on both pc's we had.  ExN also withdrew from most physical contact with me - including sex.  We attempted to have sex two times after our son was born over the course of nearly four years.  I am sure that exN withdrew from sex to punish me.  But, he did claim that because I 'wasn't interested' (HA - he avoided me like the plague!!), he had no choice but to use porn.  Typical N-stuff. 

The porn was a problem on a lot of levels.  There are a lot of good books out there on the subject if you're interested in doing research, though its hard to tell from what you said how much of a problem it is in your marriage.  All in all, in our case, the porn and withdrawing from sex were indicative of much deeper problems.  Looking back, I know without a doubt that the porn use severely affected exN's ability to emotionally connect as well as his ability to perform.  I felt like I could have been just anyone and it wouldn't have mattered to him - in the early years, I did feel like we emotionally connected - though I know now its likely I was attached and emotionally connected during sex and he wasn't or he didn't feel it the way I did - at any rate, he was good at acting like he was feeling what I felt.  Once he got into the porn, he couldn't convincingly act like he was emotionally connected anymore. 

Anyway, the last few years of the marriage, he had been using porn long enough that he had difficulty dealing with a real live person - this is common among heavy porn users - they get their brains used to being visually stimulated and they are no longer aroused by their partners - sorry if this is too graphic, but exN couldn't finish what he started with me.  If you haven't seen that, then its likely your husband isn't a heavy user.

I never put spyware on the pc and I still feel OK about it.  From what I could see that was left on the hard drive, that was enough to make a decision about whether to stay or go.  I really didn't need to know everything he was doing (from talking to other women, some have been quite shocked at what they found and they felt that it was too much to know) - though I have to admit as far as I could tell he wasn't meeting anyone IRL, chatting with someone online or having a cyber-affair - and since he couldn't perform, I doubt he was willing to try to engage in sex with someone else.  However, if there is a chance your partner may seek out others, then I'd say its OK for a person to put spyware on - to protect yourself!

I had to deal with co-dependency issues and trust issues as well - I think it definitely muddied the waters for me.  Dealing with my past baggage made it difficult to really see what exN did and continued to do post-divorce.  It took awhile to disentangle myself, but I did.  I have a much better handle on my past issues and I am learning how to protect myself from future junk directed my way by exN. 

I liked what eyes up said about love and what is not love....  that took awhile for me to work on as well - I very strongly felt that I loved exN and felt bad about leaving him.  Once I had left and had time to work through things, so much did fall away and I can honestly say I don't love exN and didn't love him for who he was the last few years of the marriage.  It took time and therapy to get to that point - quite a journey, but I know it was worth it.

[LDW]

Even more amazing is the fact that when psychopaths do get exposed by someone who is not afraid to admit that they have been conned, the psychopath is a master at painting their victims as the "real culprits." Hare cites a case of the third wife of a forty year old high school teacher:

For five years he cheated on me, kept me living in fear, and forged checks on my personal bank account. But everyone, including my doctor and lawyer and my friends, blamed me for the problem. He had them so convinced that he was a great guy and that I was going mad, I began to believe it myself. Even when he cleaned out my bank account and ran off with a seventeen-year-old student, a lot of people couldn't believe it, and some wanted to know what I had done to make him act so strangely!

Psychopaths just have what it takes to defraud and bilk others: they can be fast talkers, they can be charming, they can be self-assured and at ease in social situations; they are cool under pressure, unfazed by the possibility of being found out, and totally ruthless. And even when they are exposed, they can carry on as if nothing has happened, often making their accusers the targets of accusations of being victimized by THEM.

I was once dumbfounded by the logic of an inmate who described his murder victim as having benefited from the crime by learning "a hard lesson about life." [Hare]

The victims keep asking: "How could I have been so stupid? How could I have fallen for that incredible line of baloney?" And, of course, if they don't ask it of themselves, you can be sure that their friends and associates will ask "How on earth could you have been taken in to that extent?"

The usual answer: "You had to be there" simply does not convey the whole thing. Hare writes:

What makes psychopaths different from all others is the remarkable ease with which they lie, the pervasiveness of their deception, and the callousness with which they carry it out.

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

[Litha]

Just how "normal" do must of us think it is that a husband looks to and uses porn? 

Welcome Solo, I think you've come to the right place.

It is normal for guys to look at porn, but it is also normal for their partner to resent it deeply, to feel demeaned by it, to feel "cheated on."

It is also normal to smoke.

It is NOT normal for a human being who claims to love his partner to willfully engage in behaviour that is hurtful to his partner. Normal human beings strive to avoid hurting the people they love.

Narcissistic behavior is the polar opposite of this normality. Narcissists strive to hurt and demean the people who love them, thereby stripping them of personal power in order to better control them. And if you complain about it, they will call you crazy and insecure and in dire need of psychological help.

Knowledge is power. Reading the information on this site and participating in discussions will help to rebuild your personal power. At least, that's how it is working for me.

[CZBZ]

"My husband seems to be picking and choosing what he wants to own and says that he's not a full blown N.  He has even said that he just has tendencies.... " ~solo

Dear Solo,

You may be interested in the writings of Dr. Nina Brown who describes DNP (Destructive Narcissistic Patterns) rather than relying on a clinical diagnosis of NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). She has written numerous books about narcissism on a continuum from healthy to unhealthy to pathological.

Even one or two pathological traits can cause irreparable damage to a relationship and even more damage to a partner's sense of self (and reality). When we don't realize that an intimate partner is narcissistic, we can become very confused about ourselves.

The damage of the N-relationship is far more serious for other people than the narcissist. Usually their grandiose defenses protect them from the kind of pain we feel when we start to lose grounding in our selves...we feel fragmented, wondering if the narcissist's perceptions are valid. Having N tendencies is still a serious problem, even if categorically, someone does not meet five of the nine criteria listed in the DSM-IV.

I have written a few articles on my blog to help people understand the NPD as defined by clinical psychologists. You can read about Axis II personality disorders here: The DSM and if you have any questions (this is a lot of information to absorb!), don't hesitate asking. We all start out this journey feeling scared, overwhelmed and really really stuuuupid. it's just a phase. It goes away. There are no stuuuuuuuuupid people on WoN.  

Even a few N tendencies can wreak havoc! Plus, a psychologist may be reluctant to diagnose a client with a personality disorder that stigmatizes the narcissist and in most cases, makes 'em run the other direction.

Saying someone has "N tendencies" is a kind way to say: This person is self-centered, lacks introspection, is immature, and serves him or herself first and foremost without remorse or guilt for harming others.

So yes, having N-tendencies is far better than being diagnosed with NPD or the Malignant Narcissism Syndrome (psychopathy), but those tendencies may prevent a relationship from maturing into a reciprocally trustworthy and empathic relationship.

I will do a search and see if there are threads about Healthy-Unhealthy-Pathological narcissism to transfer to the General board. It's very confusing at first...and what I've found is that most people see 'themselves' on the N-continuum and might even resort to pathologizing themselves rather than seeing how a partner's narcissism affected their behavior, thoughts and feelings and yes, reactions.

In my household----porn is a big no-no. The psychiatrist working with my nephew told us that porn was as addicting as cocaine. Even a little soft porn can open the door to addictive use of porn, sometimes escalating into more and more disgusting sex (like child porn) to increase the 'high'. Addicts are chasing the high they experienced the first time and may end up in the barrow pit like any other addiction. This is from a psychologist who has dealt with teens and porn for over twenty years. He takes a firm position on porn being a very dangerous activity, he does not sidestep the issue at all. His approach is different from mine when I had to deal with the porn issue in my own home. I argued feminist theory about objectification which didn't work, as a matter of fact. LOLLOL The approach by this psychologist had a bigger impact because no Narcissist worth his or her diagnosis would want to live in the barrow pit.  

So No Porn in my household today. It's a black-and-white stance but that's my 'educated' opinion on the topic. I have told the funny story of the X and myself laying in bed at night: he was reading Hustler and I was reading Andrea Dworkin.   And I wondered Why Why Why our marriage was doomed to fail?!!!  

You may find these two links helpful. I'll dig up a few others. WoN has existed since 2005, so we have thousands of threads to draw from (most of those threads are in my private archives but now and then, I repost them in The Duck Pond. (protecting former member's anonymity in many cases).

Between the Devalue and Discard


Normal Narcissism



Hugs,
CZ

[~Solo]

CZ: You are quite helpful and validating too )if it's ok to actually say that!).....

In my household----porn is a big no-no. The psychiatrist working with my nephew told us that porn was as addicting as cocaine. Even a little soft porn can open the door to addictive use of porn, sometimes escalating into more and more disgusting sex (like child porn) to increase the 'high'. Addicts are chasing the high they experienced the first time and may end up in the barrow pit like any other addiction. This is from a psychologist who has dealt with teens and porn for over twenty years. He takes a firm position on porn being a very dangerous activity, he does not sidestep the issue at all. His approach is different from mine when I had to deal with the porn issue in my own home. I argued feminist theory about objectification which didn't work, as a matter of fact. LOLLOL The approach by this psychologist had a bigger impact because no Narcissist worth his or her diagnosis would want to live in the barrow pit. 

This is exactly what I have heard.  And, a very good male friend of mine said that porn doesn't casually "have" a guy.  It consumes.  It has a guy by his "*&#@s"  This is from a christian friend of mine who struggles and says he can't EVEN go there now.  It's bad stuff he says.... 

My husband says he doesn't use it that much at all.  Sometimes he says once a week, sometimes he says 3 times a month, sometimes he says he hasn't looked at it in over a month.  This is after years of him saying he didn't use and promised me he wouldn't and that I didn't trust him and I needed to trust him.  Everything in our growth depended on my trusting him.  It's all so crazy.  When I was packing to leave and signing a lease a few months ago (yes, my last six months have been death), he asked for me to not sign the lease and to please hear what he had to say that evening.  [I was shocked after taking such stances as he had and telling me he was divorcing me and "DONE" with me over and over with me asking again and again to work through this.  Finally, exhausted, I agreed and said we don't belong together, you're right].  He went to our therapist and then met me that night afterward.  He told me that everything had not been my fault and that he was diagnosed with Histrionic Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  He said that I had not imagined things.  He used porn occasionally, but that was it.  He also admitted to imagining what it may be like to be with other women and claiming to have conquered the attention of "good looking" women, but he NEVER slept with ANYONE just fished for attention.  He asked me if I could "try" in a new relationship with him, whatever that would be.  He wasn't sure.  He didn't know how to get past these disorders.  He seemed so remorseful and sad and confused.  I felt for him and felt like we made a "breakthrough". - He was diagnosed with these BEFORE we were together.  In fact post relationship with his previous girlfriend.  So, the counselor told him and he said he had bigger fish to fry.  Funny, my N sent me to the same therapist he used before.  Wasn't good planning..... 

So, he still wants trust from me-nothing has changed and neither has the strangeness and diversions (i call them smokescreens). 

Last night, he came in and saw me on here.  He asked what I was doing.  I told him it was personal and not his business.  He couldn't believe I said that to him.  I would never have said that to him in the past.  He then asked if I met someone on line.  I said I'm not the one who uses the computer for that sort of stuff and then I referenced the first time I found porn on our home PC 3 years ago.  I said that I thought he had real problems and that I remembered that child like image with all the other stuff.  I never brought THAT up.  I then brought up the possibility of him cheating on me. 
I also have not been feeling "right" since sleeping with him in December (right after a VERY destructive, horrible time).  I did see doc finally and didn't look like anything other than imbalance of bacteria (could be stress or....???). 
So, I also mentioned the two things and of course I insulted him in a huge, unforgivable way.  How could I suggest he's masterbating to a little girl he proclaimed?  "That's it!"  he says, "I can't take how you see me anymore!"  I'm divorcing you...  He immediately looked up information on line regarding female bacterial imbalance and of course it's a borderline call on stress, new intro of bacteria, hormones, etc. (though I'm very healthy and NEVER have ANYTHING going on). and he feels justified in making me the "bad guy".  Doesn't matter all the late nights, rage, name calling, abandonment, etc.  That shouldn't make me wonder at all!  Of course, I made him do those things too......

*Getting to your bold faced quote, I fear that quote.  I don't know if it's the case with him but I remember what I saw in the pages in the history that day.  Four things stood out of the many there.  An image of Pam Anderson, an image of an entrance to a porn site, an image of a regular woman from what appeared to be a personal profile nude pic?, and a blurred image of what appeared to be a child?  I couldn't completely tell (so I could be wrong) as it was blurred but looked like a child on playground equipment-didn't show anything except the underpants of a child climbing upward?  It's all foggy and to be honest, I completely blocked THAT out!  I don't know the TRUTH.  All I know is that PORN can make a partner numb to their spouse/lover.  I'm completely freaked out by the thought of this. 

So, here I sit in the fog of confusion wondering if I add to the triangle (I learned a term  ) and respond in some way, good?.  Nothing could make this better....  I feel terrible and wonder if I have blown it yet again by not believing in him.  Have I just suggested something that is so sick and untrue that now I'm the one who is sick?  I pray to god all the time to please make things "clear" and let me be fine....... 

He never fails to fall back on my past to validate his turning me away.  My past of my dad abusing my mom in many ways leaving me leary.  Our therapist did say she believed I have a love addiction due to my past of some sort even though the Milon test didn't show that.  She made reference to Co-dependancy.  It showed OCD (which as far as I can see-I do this mentally when there is a problem.  It doesn't reflect in my car, my home or any typical exaggeration of "things"). 

I see that you don't like the term co-dependant.  Can you enlighten me? 

Thanks again all!!  ~Solo

[CZBZ]

My objection to the term 'co-dependent' is based on the victim's reactions. Partners of narcissists (or children) tend to blame themselves for being Imperfect or even Defective. Sometimes people get 'hung up' on the term, blaming themselves for reacting in ways that are basically 'normal' considering the circumstances.

As far as co-dependency goes though, most people say that they struggled to stop reacting in co-dependent ways. There are certain behaviors many of us use to 'defend' ourselves in an attempt to please the narcissist. I'm not against the concept...what i dislike is heaping more blame on victim's shoulders. Or suggesting there was 'something' about them that made the N abusive. There's a time and a place for learning about co-dependency and my experience tells me that I'd have been better off focusing on the N and not myself for awhile. This may not apply to other people, though.

We've had several members whose partners were heavily involved in porn. As I recall, one courageous woman turned her husband in for distributing child porn. Porn and narcissists go hand-in-hand. So do substance addictions...

My guess is that he raises his voice and accuses you of distrusting him because his anger is frightening and thus, destabilizing. When you talk to him, are you able to avoid accusing him of porn or anything else that makes him angry? You already know he has a problem with porn so what's the point talking about it? If he wanted to 'correct' his behavior, he'd be trekking to 12-step meetings everyday or using the yellow pages to call a therapist. YOU are the one doing the work, even after he found out he was narcissistic and histrionic.

My advice is to stay OUT of the triangle. That means anytime you feel like persecuting him, rescuing him, or you're feeling like a victim (which leads to retaliation), avoid him if you can. Leave. Go somewhere else. He may try to draw you in like he did when you talked about porn. He saw himself as the victim and you as his persecutor. That's an example of how it works. If he cries enough, you'll rescue him. Or if he yells back and accuses YOU of victimizing him, he's in the role of the persecutor. And that's why they call it The Drama Triangle. It's drama, drama, drama and if your husband is histrionic, well, dear lady, you don't need to watch movies. You have a live-in network right at home.  

If YOU are uncomfortable with your husband watching porn, then that's enough of a reason for him to STOP out of respect for you and your feelings.


Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

What makes psychopaths different from all others is the remarkable ease with which they lie, the pervasiveness of their deception, and the callousness with which they carry it out.

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

LDW, that article was INTENSE.  Did you post it on the psychopathy part of the board?  It NEEDS to be there.  I am a little ill now having read it.  Actually more then ill, I am incredibly grateful for the brevity of my time with xn.  It is simply him.  Now I have to add Mask of Sanity to book # lord knows what in my pathology education.

I truly had not idea what I was dealing with.  NONE.  Chilling.

[honeybearII]

This is an interesting thread because you, Solo, are dealing with someone who seems to have a bit of insight into his issues.  Many N's will not, under ANY circumstances, really look inside themselves or take the blame for anything.  On the other hand, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in the hands of an N because they will usually find some way to use it to their advantage.

I think what jumps out at me, and what I experienced in a 32-year marriage to an N, is that despite your being honest and open about behavior that impacts you negatively, HE DOESN'T CHANGE.  There is an article somewhere here about how we, as partners of an N, look only at each episode of disrespectfulness, lies, manipulation, gaslighting, etc. as an episode in and of itself.  We may even confront them about it, and believe that we have had a "meaningful discussion" and then we do what people do who love.  We forgive and forget.  But what NEVER HAPPENS is change.  They say, "I hear you", coming across as sensitive and wanting to work with us, but then what usually happens is that they go deeper underground in their actions.  Eventually we fiind out they have been into something we are unhappy about.  We confront again.  They put on the Mr. Sensitive mask and act like they are oh-so-sorry or oh-so-insightful but then what happens?  The actions goes underground again.  It is like being on a gerbil wheel and the only way we can stop it is to GET OFF. 

I learned, through a very difficult time, to STOP LISTENING TO WORDS.  Words are so cheap.  What I began to look at was the ongoing patterns that NEVER CHANGED.  The crap went in cycles, but eventually it all began again and the idiocy began again.  What DIDN'T happen was any daily change in his behavior that REALLY said, "I hear you.  I love you and am going to change."  AND THEN DOING IT.

Honey

[eyes_up]

the idea of beginning a thread on Co dependent has arrived. Wondering how each of us defines "co dependent" since i have a whole other idea of it.

But ... in memory, i attended a CODA meeting at the suggestion of my therapist just to see what was shaking because we were discussing co dependent characteristics.

I was in a room surrounded by the saddest souls I have EVER encountered on the planet. I told therapist I didn't fit in with the group. It actually brought me back to myself , strange affect.

I never considered the term co dependency a blame sort of statement just a way some one organizes their sense of self. So for this I can say that I had a co dependent vein pulsing since my sense of self was  most often circulating through what the other person thought of me , not always but enough that when I was wedged into a narc realty and the demand for any sense of self being eliminated, I had a fertile enough soil for this to take place.

This I consider to be where personal development comes into play. Interdependence doesn't delete independence. I am not a whole self because of the other person. I am not a defective self because of what the other person asserts. But this was a foggy area.

I am not to be blamed for the narcissist behavior but I did take the responsibility for what ever characteristics were already a part of my personality before and during narc times. It is the first step to freedom. Besides I had to undue all of that stuff any way so for how ever it developed and the fact that  it was dysfunctional I am the one that has to clean it up and change old methods of functioning.

I could write a book about FOO conditioning. I could say it is not my fault I have these patterns which essentially is true. I didn't chose one of them but was essentially shown nothing more. It doesn't matter how or where it came from... this way of functioning... it didn't work and it had to change. focusing on a narcissist or FOO doesn't exactly teach me new and healthy methods. It is a locked position staring at FOO. But I do know that it is not my fault that I was surviving on dysfunctional habits. I can say...OH thanks mom for telling me that other peoples feelings are more important than mine and that the ability to change  other people is my greatest asset, my greater self. It is a nice idea this selfless but this method that I describe is not selfless. it is creating a self out of a certain function with out paying mind to my own personal human needs. My need becomes about other peoples needs.

the narc just fits right in there with it is all about me.

"On the other hand, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in the hands of an N because they will usually find some way to use it to their advantage." ~ Honey

I couldn't agree more. Just let a narc tell you what his issues are and how he plans to grow out of them. But please do not say they are hurting me. He or she is still working on it and you can say nothing but help ....DUH!

eyes

[SusyP14]

Here is the article that Honey referenced.  I have it saved under my favorites:

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,6435.0.html

Also, I would like to raise my hand and say that I am co-dependent and a relationship/love addict.  My first live in BF was a drug addict, my exhusband was an alcoholic, etc.  I do not think you can have this type of relationship history and not know that there is an issue with boundaries or lack thereof.

From the book Women Who Love Too Much:

#3 Terrified of abandonment
You will do anything to keep the relationship in tact. Abandonment is a strong word; it implies being left, possibly to die because we may not be able to survive alone.

Every woman who loves too much has experienced emotional abandonment. Being left by the man, or threatened to be left, brings up all the terror and emotional turmoil from the people who first abandoned us. We will do anything to avoid feeling that way. We will do about anything to make him stay.

#4 Change through Love
Because you were never able to change your parents/guardians/ into the warm loving caretakers you longed for and needed to teach you, you respond deeply to the familiar type of emotionally unavailable man, whom you can again try to change through your love. whatever was wrong or missing in the past, is what you are trying to make turn out right in the present. Something very self defeating and destructive is going on. it would be ok if we brought our compassion and understanding into a relationship with a healthy individual, where our own needs have a chance of being met. But we are not attracted to healthy men who would give us what we need. They seem boring, and we pass them by without a second glance. we are attracted to men who reciprocate the struggle from the past. We will do anything to prove our love.

#5 Nothing is too much trouble
Nothing is too much trouble, takes too much time, or is too expensive if it will help the man we are with. The theory is that if it works, he will become everything we want and need, which means we win the struggle for the love and understanding weve wanted for so long. We go through any lengths to help him.


#6 Accustomed to lack of love
We are willing to wait, hope and try harder and harder to please. We believe that as adults, it is up to us to make our relationships work. We find blaming, irresponsible partners who contribute to our sense that it really is all up to us. We carry the burden.