From: CZBZ (Original Message) Sent: 8/25/2005 3:03 PM Dear All,
I collected a few articles about the Karpman Drama Triangle you can access by clicking on the underlined title at the top of this message. Though I am only beginning to understand the power of this simple diagram, some of you may be more familiar with the theory. It's amazing how we are able to review our lives more clearly when there's an order to the chaos we could not 'see' at the time.
For those of you just learning about the Drama Triangle...well, guess what? You are not alone. I'll read through all the articles I googled this morning and we can hopefully find parallels in our own lives which will help us better protect ourselves the next time someone needs our help. The following quote lept right to mind while researching the Drama Triangle this morning:
"Parenthetically, abused people sense their mate's distrust and vulnerability. It is the 'soft part nobody else knows.' These empathic people get into trouble when their attempt to heal their partner through their all-forgiving love backfires." ~Irene Matiatos, Ph.D
Love and hugs,
CZBZ
From: amelia_erhardt Sent: 8/26/2005 9:23 AM This is a very interesting and applicable stance on behavior. Thanks for beginning this discussion, CZ.
I would like to add that my first impression when reading the articles was that this was a horrible way to have to deal with life, particularly if you don't really understand what's happening when it's happening.
Then I realized that the exN in my life was not just a MASTER, but a GRAND MASTER at instigating and controlling the detailed behavioral responses outlined within all three corners of the triangle.
Recognizing when it's happening is all important. But of perhaps MORE value is continuing the reading (which I haven't fully explored yet) on how to GET OFF of the triangle before more emotional damage can occur.
Protecting ourselves seems to be two-fold: first, understanding the dynamics of a situation and second, having the appropriate tools to deal with and diffuse it before it escalates.
I hope we can find additional answers for others who are just beginning to search for ways to deal with abusive relationships.
Love,
Amelia
From: SnowBlind2002 Sent: 8/26/2005 10:19 AM CZ,
I've discussed this very triangle with my therapist. She pointed out that I've been in all three "corners." Interesting huh?
Snow
From: CZBZ Sent: 8/26/2005 10:59 AM Dear Amelia and all,
Oftentimes, it's the simplest of diagrams or cliches that carries the most truth about human drama and chaos. I remember going to Al-Anon and being told by my sponsor to memorize all the 12-step slogans. Well, I read through all of them and thought to myself, 'That's stupid.'
ROFL
So now I'll get REAL honest with all of you and admit where I first learned about the Karpman Drama Triangle (which I ignored for months while learning about NPD). Perhaps i am now ready to face what scared me when first discovering a printed file about 'triangular victimization' on the X-N's desk. Guess who had sent him this information complete with diagrams and psychological explanations?
O yes. His new soul mate.
At the time, I was operating under the impression we were living the
Quinby Durable Triangle, though. hahaha...Maybe I was TRYING to live the Durable Triangle but didn't realize you can't get there with someone who insists on being a victim. Maybe I was under the illusion we were living the Durable Triangle because the maN I married is mighty intelligent and manipulative. Nonetheless, it was MY illusion and I take it all back. LOL
Anyway, instead of my X-husbaNd sharing this valuable information with his family who were doing everything they could to support his passage through a Midlife Crisis (!), he kept it all to himself. In his Distorted Perception of Reality, he and the Other Woman were two Victims of abusive families who were so abusive, they could not see how Special the two of them were. Like a couple of delusional psychos, they banded together and labelled their families as persecutors. Yes. He was me as his persecutor; and he saw himself as the Knight in Shining Armor rescuing me for so many years he was exhausted.
I was so confused I took that ten-page print-out and shoved it under my mattress for two years. Frankly, I could see all the ways I was trying to control the N in order to keep the family together and assumed I was an unconscious abuser taking advantage of the poor little maN.
So with fear and trepidation, I worked on the Drama Page yesterday, and ruminated about the whole experience...perhaps I was ready to look at myself once more and see how this triangle had kept our family locked into a secret society managed by a mini-hitler who is highly educated in Human Systems and Organizational Behavior. O my gosh...it makes me ill just thinking about it. I'll try not to throw up all over my keyboard while finishing this post, though. He knew exactly what he was doing. Cerebral Narcissists are pretty scary folks, believe me.
I still have some confusion about how this triangle applies to the Narcissistic relationship, however. So much of what we experience with a narcissist is pretense on their part, it's hard to define how this triangle worked if we were under the impression they were dealing with their own shite and intended to heal the family dynamics. But despite my illusions about what was going on between the N and me, the reality is: we WERE in the Drama Triangle and there's no two ways about it. For years, I had been chasing him around the 'Geometric Karpman' getting more and more tired by the day. Finally, I quit chasing him and allowed him to SIT in his own favorite position, hoping he'd clean himself up.
It only took about a year after he left, for our family dynamics to move into a more natural relationship based on each person's ability to claim their shite and heal it. Being responsible to change ourselves means we escape the Drama Triangle and move into a place of higher principles; i.e.: trust, empathy, compassion, forgiveness (to name a few). The key is to realize we are NOT victims anymore; we do not need someone to rescue us from our situation; nor bully our way to empowerment.
I'll post a bit later about how the Triangle worked between me and the Narcissist who lied and lied and lied, until finally: He truly believed his own lies. I have got to clip a few bushes now and "meditate on this, I will".
As Snowblind just wrote: WE have been all three points of the triangle.
Love and hugs,
CZBZ
From: Aria· Sent: 8/26/2005 11:14 AM Wow, CZ, Awesome Post! I must confess have been having a very difficult time wrapping my mind around that triangle and how it became a part of my life. I can *see* it all but my foot is landing in the Quinby Durable Triangle and am loving every minute of being there.
I am shocked those two delusional human beings are the people who made you aware of the triangle using it as yet another excuse to validate their shameless relationship.
I'm going to wait for your next post after you meditate while cutting hedges before I try to offer some thoughts.
Please forgive me cause you know I loves you!!!
Aria
From: talia Sent: 8/26/2005 3:42 PM This is how I see the "n" in my life....
the "persecutor"(we don't recognize this in the stealth narcissist,because it's hidden behind the ambient abuse,until it repeats itself often enough that we no longer silently say "ouch") "n" is in denial of this because it doesn't go along with his image of...
the "rescuer"(ie..part-time savior of the world)me the "victim"(although I don't know it yet) truly believes in this image..as much as the "n" believes in it...(this is the "n's" front to hide the persecutor)..it's the reason I kept my "ouchies" to myself.."how can someone this good...be so bad?"...
Reality sets in when the victim(me) is noticably bleeding..the band-aids of denial no longer contain the bleeding...so, low and behold, I am now the persecutor by virtue of pointing out the fact.."hey, I'm bleeding here"
and woila!!!...the "n" is the victim because it's "hell to have to visit reality"...he can't stand what in reality is just a little cut to his ego(I'm no monster)..but it's enough to trigger the horrid repressed SHAME....gosh, the "n" is afraid of me...he has "no idea what I'm capable of doing"...(nothing compared to what he has actually done,but nevermind that)....I'm the "PERSECUTOR/TERMINATOR"..Beware world!!!
Being the human that I am, I start to feel "guilty"..and "sorry"...I must save the "n" from feeling bad!!! so now I am the "rescuer" and I soothe the "n" and say "there,there...I know you are nothing but a "rescuer".."a GOD"..."it was just me overreacting again".."I'm too sensitive"..."I'm so sorry "n"..."can you forgive me and please,please toss me another crumb?"..."I'll let you play "persecutor" again, even though we'll call it "rescuer"...
and woila!!...the dance continues...all have returned to original roles...only to repeat the above over and over....until "sanity" returns to the victim(me)when I realize I can actually bleed to death.....
that's my take...
hugs,
talia
From: CZBZ Sent: 8/27/2005 9:10 AM Don't you love Yoda? My kids loved Star Wars, particularly my son who mimics Yoda's voice whenever we're exchanging Deep Thoughts. Cracks me up every time. He used to be fascinated with Darth Vadar until he got up enough courage to pull the mask off his Dad's head, finding nothing more than a mean, old man.
Great Explanation, Talia. Ambient abuse means 'we' are caught in the Narcissist's 'Distorted reality' before we realize what happened. This article by Vaknin might help those of you unfamiliar with Ambient Abuse:
"Ambient abuse is the stealth, subtle, underground currents of maltreatment that sometimes go unnoticed even by the victims themselves, until it is too late. Ambient abuse penetrates and permeates everything – but is difficult to pinpoint and identify. It is ambiguous, atmospheric, diffuse. Hence its insidious and pernicious effects. It is by far the most dangerous kind of abuse there is.
"...In the long term, such an environment erodes the victim's sense of self-worth and self-esteem. Self-confidence is shaken badly. Often, the victim adopts a paranoid or schizoid stance and thus renders himself or herself exposed even more to criticism and judgment. The roles are thus reversed: the victim is considered mentally deranged and the abuser – the suffering soul." Ambient Abuse by Sam Vaknin The Drama Triangle
Understanding the three points, restores our power to prevent dysfunctional relationships from overwhelming our lives. Once we learn how the Victim moves to Persecutor OR Rescuer, we can observe ourselves in process and STOP. While the Persecutor and the Rescuer are both victims shifting position with one another, the Persecutor and the Rescuer are never in communication with each other. That is what the illustration is pointing out with the exterior lines to the triangle:
The position of Victim is the preferred position for people caught up in Drama using 'victimization' in order to meet their needs. It's an immature way to create relationships even if those relationships are not intentionally abusive.
"First, there must be a commitment to stop getting your needs met through the Victim role and ask directly for what you want and need. Second, you must connect the missing communication link between the Persecutor and the Rescuer...When you learn how to do these two things, you will find yourself shifting out of victim consciousness." (excerpted from
article by Janae B. Weinhold & Barry K. Weinhold )
But like the Quinby Triangle shows us, we can change the disempowering outcome of the triangle with healthy boundaries, empathic connection, and reciprocal responsibility. This is NOT possible with a narcissist no matter how many books he might have read about Human Organizations and Healthy Relationships. It's not possible because the narcissist has a distorted perception of himself. Also, he cannot tolerate the inevitable suffering we experience when 'we' are the perpetrators to someone else's pain and misery. Guilt moves us to remorse and from remorse to 'changed behavior'. Empathic connection is essential.
N and Me
The man I married talked a good story---but he has no idea Guilt creates a Good Soul---it does not destroy it. Without this fundamental belief in the Good Enough Self, it's extremely difficult for a narcissist to hold onto his 'responsibility' long enough to heal and allow his partner to heal after a fair fight. Couples, families, neighbors, everybody has disagreements so that's not the issue. The issue is the lack of resolution or as Ambient Abuse points out: our inability to ask directly and get our needs met in the relationship.
N and I talked a lot. We talked all the time. We talked whenever he came home from work, which was not all that often as a matter-of-fact, but occasionally he needed to eat. Usually after one of those long, long conversations, I'd be crying without understanding why. Once I started crying, o-boy...Mr. Rescuer came to save the Damsel in Distress and I'd get what I wanted (if I even knew what I wanted after one of those conversations ). Now had this maN been like his mentally ill brother, I'd have known the conversations were headed into dangerous territory; but the perceived competence of the narcissist is the 'mask'. We cannot see who they are until they Mess Up and Get Caught.
First of all, I am a Rescuer Type woman. The kind of woman who collects stray cats and people. But without boundaries exacting mutual co-operation for my temporary support, I end up in the same Drama Triangle I was in with the narcissist. It's easy to slide into this dysfunctional dynamic with family relationships because most of us learn as kids that the best way to get what we want is to 'cry.' LOL
So here's an example of a current situation with my sister who lives with me. She gets divorced, she has no money and child to support. I have a home and adequate cash reserves to 'rescue' her from her situation. If she does not maintain her duties and responsibilities to take care of herself and her son, I feel resentment. My resentment leads me to 'see' myself as her Victim because I don't know how to suggest proper boundaries between us. When I become resentful, I might not even know it until I've criticized or tried to control her behavior. (Now I'm the persecutor). We have a quarrel which goes nowhere but bad because neither of us is conscious we are dancing in the Drama Triangle until the chaos is visible.
Until I tell her what I need, she can't tell me what she needs as my peer. She is still seeking her needs to be met through 'victim consciousness' like she did as my little sister when we were young kids. Al-Anon helped both of us a couple of years ago with the simple idea that it was OUR responsibility to ask for what we needed from others and allow them the opportunity to accept or deny their willingness to meet those needs. It's nobody else's task to 'guess' and 'fulfill' our needs if we don't take responsibility to know what they are.
With the childish perception that I am the justified victim of my sister's circumstances, I tease her until she is adequately humbled so I can rescue her again.
For her, as the victim, she builds resentment for my inability to give her what she needs even though she has no clue what that might be until she heals her wounds and takes charge of her own life. As long as someone else is taking care of us, we DO NOT increase our self-esteem but most likely feel worse and worse about ourselves. My sister becomes my Persecutor when she criticizes my inadequacy to make her happy. Then I move back to the Victim position where she feels adequately remorseful and recommits to dealing with her own shite instead of pushing it in my corner to clean up.
Now this is not the same level of Drama and Chaos as the narcissistic relationship because my sister and I are capable of dealing with reality, creating an empathic and reciprocally responsible relationship, and being Honest with ourselves and others. But it's an illustration of how we get caught in the Triangle even if our intentions are to Move towards the Quinby. We Cannot move towards a Durable Triangle until we have moved OUT of victim consciousness. And right after her hideous divorce, my sister was still powerless and victimized by her experience. Maybe this is why so many women end up with narcissists the second time around if they don't allow themselves to heal before being rescued by another maN?
These dynamics are mostly unconscious---like the regressive period back to our childhoods after our own narcissistic injury awakens old wounds. Having conscious awareness of how this Triangle works can help us prevent DRAMA before it erupts! I love it...just clears things up so well.
The N and Me
We were young (19 and 20) when we met. So immaturity is a definite factor in my perceptions of him as a Maturing Partner. He couldn't grow up with me and we can't know that about anybody when we meet them. Especially the high-achieving, seemingly principled narcissist who for all intents and purposes, was Freshmen in College.
(Me=Victim; N=Persecutor)
BUT...not long after we married, he'd say the cruelest things about me in front of other people. Like a Deer in Headlights, it did not compute with the maN I knew him to be when we were alone. I was ashamed of his behavior and believed it reflected on me since he was my loyal and dedicated spouse. What in the world did I DO to deserve that?
(Me=Persecutor; N=Victim)
Flustered by his snide comments, I said nothing until later and then I'd let loose with what a mean maN he was and why couldn't he stop saying things like that didn't he know how demeaning this was to me? And after only one year of his behavior, I threatened him with divorce if he did not stop.
(Me=Rescuer; N=Victim)
He'd start crying, or at least reveal another horror story of his childhood and I'd feel like a heartless woman to not take his abusive childhood into consideration. After all, he promised to do better because he 'loved me more than life itself'. Ah....poor little guy. Here's a (((hug))).
(Me=Victim; N=Rescuer)
Then, I'd start in on what I could do to help him because it was never my intent to make life more difficult. And then, my 'boundariless' empathy for him as his wife, made me cry because I had been so mean to him in the first place. So the gentlemaN rescues me for as long as he can stand it.
In the narcissist's eyes he is serving our needs in order to get the attention he requires. He does not realize our participation because he only sees himself. As far as he can conclude, he is doing all the work and we're free-loading. The Narcissist cannot play the role of Rescuer for very long before resenting us. As soon as his resentment builds (because he cannot see how we are supporting him), he moves BACK to the Persecutor Role and we are victimized once more by his outbursts or shittie behavior. Stunned and re-victimized, we move back to the Persecutor role ourselves if we have even a smidgeon of self-esteem left.
It seems to me that the Narcissist's favored projected position for a love-relationship is the Rescuer requiring us to be a Victim. The stronger we become in defiance of his efforts to subordinate, isolate, castigate, and permeate us---the more he increases his Persecutory tactics forcing us into a Victim Role he thinks is Powerless. If we counter his overt persecution with Boundaries of our own, he will go on a Stealth Persecutory Mission. If his Stealth Persecutory Mission fails to keep us victimized, he will find another target.
No matter how many times we danced around the triangle, our conversations ended up with HIM rescuing ME...he felt In Control while I was never the wiser as to what had just taken place. All I knew was that despite our intimate conversation and resolved differences: I FELT BAD. ('self-confidence was shaken', as described by Vaknin's article above)
Love and hugs,
CZBZ
From: Zivot1 Sent: 6/5/2006 5:35 PM CZ,
I did not finish reading your entire post but I could not help to write to you immediately. I cannot believe that your X had a copy of the theory on his desk and given by his new soul mate.
Is this purposeful planning or what?
I would only pass this info so that someone could use in their benefit and only as a coping skill. Personally, once I learned and applied this theory, I could never turn back to being just 'innocent Zivot".
From: CZBZ Sent: 6/5/2006 5:47 PM Dear Zivot,
While it was absolutely horrible to read through the paper trail he left behind, I thank my Guardian Angel every day for this evidence. I was in so deep there was no way to see him as a conniving, betraying, manipulative and selfish bazturd. For me to restore my sanity, I needed exactly the kind of proof I had. You would not believe the kinds of things he and the OW had written to each other.
How about this one? She tells him to expect me to be really really mad because divorced women like CZ lose 75% of their standard of living and she and he will INCREASE their standard of living. I could hardly believe my eyes! Some innocent little woman she is? How could she do that and sleep at night? Well, maybe they weren't sleeping...you know....a little boinking in the woods after midnight?!*#! Who needs sleep when you've got the Lone Ranger spread-eagled on your mattress, eh?
My X also had a master's degree in business and organizational behavior studying all the psychological theories I'm now learning about. Zimbardo was a common name in our discussions...little did I know he was practicing Prison Guard skills on his family. LOL
He was quite prepared to play his hand when he left and I was little Doris Day clipping topiaries and worrying about the color of our bedsheets.
Love,
CZ
From: Determined_Allie Sent: 6/5/2006 7:37 PM CZ
Aw, the triangle. Here we go changing places and parts. Only an N could perform so well that he could play all three parts convincingly.
I have been in many triangles all set up by Mr. N himself. First it was the daughter, father, mother triangle. Then the sister, wife and husband triangle. Then it was the OW, wife and husband triangle. Then the daughter, OW and N triangle. The maN can only function with 3's.
Not 4's or 5's - his favourite number is 3. When I look back at all his past relationships with women, parents, sisters,brothers,children, girlfriends - it has always been 3. Two to pit againist each other and then him to play the victim.
CZ, you are not alone in the horrible crap that an OW and a maN has planned. I found out that that they were planning on getting half the house proceeds to buy a home together. Then there was the plot to get rid of me, get the child and with the child comes all that lovely insurance money. Then there was the plot for the maN to sell his half of the child to me just before the sole custody case went to trial. And people say they don't plan ahead - oh yes they do.
Love
Allie
From: Rox24201 Sent: 6/5/2006 9:25 PM Allie and all, they're dumb as a fox.
While planning a romantic evening with you, they've already bad mouthed you to anyone who would listen.
Yes, always a triangle. Anything to make you feel anything but exclusive. Mine was more into 4's & 5's, he didn't stop at 3. He had a best friend (male) who would call 20x a day, no kidding, A SIL who would constantly send him sexually implied email jokes and buy him boxer shorts for Christmas, a (butchy) lesbian mother over the top as far as controlling, her (butchy) partner (now, isn't that weird?) and her partner's family, the nephews who were listed as beneficiaries of everything and then last but not least, his dog, Freddy. Even the he whole lesbian culture became to be more important than me just to please his mother. Their Dolphin seating area was among lesbians and the mother somehow got all of the season ticket's in her name. Total control. I hope everyone knows who I root for during any football game involving the Dolphins. Against them, that's right.
Now, for anyone who knows me, I love animals more than I can say. Freddy developed N's personality and would GROWL at me if I wanted to move him off the couch to sit down, etc. N told me that it's too bad because if he bit me, I would be out, the dog stays... what the hell did I ever see in this guy? Not one word of working together, zip.
I'm glad I know what I know now and recognize so much weird behavior in the workplace that I never understood before... also politics, media, etc., but I wish I had never a need to have learned so much.
Love,
Rox
From: CZBZ_1 Sent: 7/1/2008 11:25 AM Dear all,
Even though this is an old thread from August 2005, learning about the Karpman Drama Triangle requires regular updating. I don't know how many times this diagram has helped me avoid chaos and confusion, even when a narcissist wasn't chasing me around all three points of the triangle.
Triangles are EVERYWHERE...and we usually end up hurting ourselves when we can't see the position we're willingly taking on the triangle. You'll know your in it though 'cuz just like the name, you'll soon be surrounded by DRAMA.
Hugs,
CZ
"Hello. My Name is _____ and I’m in Recovery from the Drama Triangle"
"...Really get it that playing out the familiar roles of Perpetrator, Rescuer and Victim does not serve you. It does not serve others. It is just something you have learned because it was modeled for you. So you need not have guilt or feel ashamed for what you have learned living in your family. As learned patterns of habit, the attitudes and behaviors that make up all the roles of the Drama Triangle can be unlearned. To do nothing to change the roles guarantees that thing will remain the same..." ~
Lynn Namka, Get Your Angries Out
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