Christianity and Narcissism

[~Solo]

I hope this is an acceptable topic.  I, in no way mean to push belief systems, but only to bring out any other christians that may share some of my outlook.  If I need to be looking elsewhere in respect for others views, please, please tell me so.

I have a rededication to god going on in my life.  I go to a non denominational church.  I must say that my rededication has been rocky due to my defenses that come into play because of the narcissistic relationship.  God tells us he does not like divorce and so I feel pressure from the church and some pressure from one of my now dearest christian friends to serve god and not myself.  She is a recovering alcoholic and had affairs on her husband.  Her husband is a lover of challenges (big wall climbing, mountaineering, etc.) and also a porn addict.  However, he IS a christian.  While she is still supporting my leaving because she knows the turmoil I have told her about, I can see that she still believes that I haven't believed ENOUGH in god working this out.  In fact, salvation of my husband has been something she has hoped and prayed for for a long time.  (I met her and her husband through my N).  Her husband married us by obtaining a "commissioner for the day".  She and her husband believe that my husband is not living as a husband could (and not as a christian which they hope for) even though they were first friends of his but they know I love god and feel a connection and an obligation first to a fellow christian.  I don't spend time with the husband unless I run into him, but mostly I spend time with her as we have ladies bible study together when I can make it, church on Sundays when I can make it (I live in the mountains-kind of tough sometimes) and we hike together.    

So, my husband is not a christian.  I have been advised to trust god, which I do trust god to care for me but I don't really trust my husband to.  I am advised that we can never put our faith in others only GOD.  By looking at the idea of staying, I get the gut message loudly that my N husband would only use that to his advantage as well.  He, even though has said will never look to god or religion or jesus or any of "that" (because that is for weak people who use it as a crutch), still seemed to kind of entertain the idea of my interest in it (displayed with splashes of intermitted criticism for it) .  (Last year, he bought a cross necklace for me on my birthday?).  More than a couple times, he made reference to my believing in god and how I "should" behave if that's the case.  

Seems to me that Christianity could only worsen the Narcissism in my N husband because he may take advantage of my trust in god and giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Tough one to swallow as well when you want to "do the right thing"..... I did not know to not marry "unequally yolked".  After doing so, you are not to divorce, but have hope in salvation for your partner.  

Yowza! I DID NOT know that one....  

~Solo

[LDW]

Dear Solo,

The way I see religion (whether it's christian, muslim, buddhist etc) is that it helps us to remember our interconnectedness by experiencing it from within (inner-connectedness). I’m not a very religious person but I do believe that people have the right to have their own definition of “God” and to me that encompasses more than doctrine, dogma, rituals, tradition or a religious identity. When I dance, sing, hear music that gives me the shivers, when I help others, give love, feel loved, I simply know there’s more. And that feeling is the essence, that’s what matters most as far as I’m concerned.

I'd like to quote Patricia Evans (author of 'controlling people') on this subject:

Unfortunately our Western culture has not only been outwardly focused to the exclusion of inner experience, but also has adopted a philosophy of duality. This philosophy assumes that the power and grace of the universe, of 'All That Is', is something so separate that when we say 'God', we already mean something which is separate from us, as if we were not held in divine intention - a part of all that is. This duality, like a mindset, can act as a lens excluding the experience of connectedness.

To exclude the experience of connectedness is Narcissism in its core.

So yes, I agree to what you write about the fact that a Narc would be able to abuse 'christianity' if you believe that God is seperate from us, and that he/she/it will, as a superior force, ultimately work it out for you...

The Narc takes advantage of the symbols, dogma's, rituals and set of values (do's and dont's rules) that come with a religion, his ultimate goal is to get you to question yourself and use your beliefs against you. Stay grounded in the essence of your religion which is to feel part of 'all that is' and to experience connectedness, just don't count on the Narc wanting to be part of that as well.

L

[~Solo]

Thank you SEFG!  I sooo much appreciate your opening up to me.  I tried to just hang in there ya know?  The house we have is owned by my husband and he keeps asking me when I'm going to get out of his life.  Sure, I can keep pulling him back and we can play this game forever, but the time has come to let him have what he's asking for.  For the longest time, I would say that I don't believe in divorce and I didn't get married to give up.  That's not what marriage is.  Didn't matter, he always states how unhappy he is and that I have take years from his life.  It takes two to be married....I cannot do it alone even if god is with ME.  My sanity was clearly becoming an issue.  I will pray for god to forgive this in me, but I also know that my husband was deceitful in what he claimed to be what he wanted and I do see porn use and rejecting intimacy with me as "cheating".

So, here I am....

Thanks again for your valuable insight. ~Solo   

[~Solo]

LDW:  Great point on connectedness.  Thank you for that.  My husband is connected to one person/thing/power, himself!  

Added comment:  I re-read this post and due to the "touchiness" of this topic, I felt it necessary to tell you LDW that I "really" appreciate your input.  It just came to me directly...The ONLY thing/power/person my N husband is accountable to IS literally himself.  Anyhow, since we are typing responses and there is no inflection, sometimes we need to do a little extra typing to feel understood.  So, again, great point.   

~Solo  

[~Solo]

Oh SEFG, again words I need to read.  Yes, you are right, if he wants out, just as your husband did, then we have to let go.  My definition of let go wasn't complete due to my Christian "others" advising me of not filing for divorce.  I was told to let him do it if that's what "he" wants.  So, I still felt trapped in a way as he would give me just enough of a reason to believe that he was going to "try again" as he so "graciously" gives of himself yet again (my sarcasm).  I would still work on this today, but I do see the near impossibility of it working if my N does not believe in loving God and being accountable.  I have been fighting between -saving myself and being tough with my N husband (not letting him see how crazy, defenseless, in need his love I am) - and being a person who loves god.  
It's really hard to love god and survive within this kind of marriage.  I'm truthfully not sure it can happen???  

So, thank you, thank you.... ~Solo

[CZBZ]

Hi Solo!


Bringing up religion can be a touchy matter but we've handled the topic fairly well on WoN. yes, there are many different perspectives on religion amongst WoN members. Some are active church-goers, some were, some will be, and some prefer to leave religion to theologists, preserving spirituality in their hearts. Because our forum is based in the USA, the majority of people are at least familiar with Christianity and because of the recent popularity of Buddhism, most of us have gained an appreciation for 'imported' religions, too.  

WoN does not subscribe to any particular religious creed and my hope, my sincere hope, is that members will be compassionate enough to allow one another to express themselves without criticism or judgment.

For me, religion has been a huge part of my life. I grew up in an extremely religious community, married my husband in a religious ceremony, and counseled with church leaders prior to divorcing him (though we were not 'actively' religious for many years, we started out that way). My relationship to God became an essential element of my 'healing' which makes sense because I grew up praying every day and viewing the whole of life through a religious lens. I reverted back to the foundation of self I had been given as a child and found great comfort in spiritual practices that I had given up about ten years after marrying.

Finding 'connection' in spirituality seems to be true for most Americans I've met on message boards which makes it tough when you can't talk about your religious/spiritual experiences without causing conflict. Still, a great number of people have written about spiritual experiences during a crisis (like being abandoned or replaced after years of marriage) and some of those people had never considered themselves to be religious prior to the experience.

In my case, after returning to my religion-of-origin and counseling with leadership, I felt comfortable knowing that God did NOT want anyone to be abused and certainly not in an intimate relationship which has incredible power to harm us to the very core of our being. When, according to my counselor, men ignore the tender mercies of their wive's hearts, the marital commitment must be ended. I was never ever counseled to stay with a verbally abusive man, nor one that escalated his abuse to infidelity. In fact, I was told, nay encouraged   to rely on the arm of God and not the arm of my husband who would lead me to a cliff and push me over. Okay, okay, I added that last bit....

The one thing religion has helped me do, is leave Vengeance and Justice to God. I kept thinking about that scripture in Romans whenever i wanted to puncture the N's tires or 'key' his girlfriend's new car.


Hugs,
CZ

[Proud2B]

My exN ran off the with church secretary.  He was a self-proclaimed "christian', and so was she. 

What's more, the church leadership did NOTHING to support me, and continued to employ her.  The entire time I had not a clue of the drama that was happening under my very nose.  Their excuse for not informing me of the exN's and the chruch secretary's affair?  "We thought you knew". 

What happened with my church heaped more and more betrayal on top of the abuse I had already suffered at the hands of the exN. 

I am super sensitive about "church" things.  I am deeply spiritual, but have found that churches, and religions as a whole, are manmade constructs. 

I treat them accordingly. 

I also recognize that the church has helped many, many people.

It's unfortunate that so much bad behavior and betrayal has happened in the name of God and The Church.

My advise is to look inside and decide for yourself the rightness and wrongness of situations and people.  You "know" in your heart of hearts.  There is a little bit of God in all of us.

  Hugs,
Proud2B

 

   

[Proud2B]

SEFG,

I tried, over the course of two years, to go back to my church home.  I wanted desperately to make it work. 

But in the end, I realized that no matter how much I wanted it, or how much I was able to forgive, returning there was so triggering for me, the feeling of betrayal so deep - even though the church leadership later expressed a modicum of regret over how they handled the situation - l finally realized it was just time to move on.

Anymore I use the term "God" very loosely. 

One thing about being the survivor of an "N" relationship, is that I've learned to trust myself and recognize the divine within me.  I also tend to get a little impatient with folks who don't, but I try not to let it show.


Proud2B

[~Solo]

Once again, thanks for all the support and responses.

Proud2be:  So completely sorry you had to go thru "that"!  I do believe we use our inner compasses as well.  I'm kinda of teetering right now, ya know? 

SEFG: Hopefully, I didn't pull you out to a totally exposed place.  I appreciate your thoughts.

CZ:  Good advice in believing in god and not the husband who would take you to the cliff and push you over!

I'll check out of this thread and move on to some others.  See you there!  ~Solo 

[~Solo]

BTW-One of the toughest things about this is hearing from my dear christian friend (s) that if I believe in god, then I wouldn't be truly "downcast".  It's hard to act as though this is not happening?????

[LDW]

SEFG, it is what it is... beautifully put. No judgement... it is what it is.

[honeybearII]

Oh, dear, is this whole thing TRIGGERING for me, and yet I feel compelled to add my two cent's worth.

I was married to exNH for almost 32 years.  A HUGE PART of that marriage centered around all those things that we consider "Christian" and to the world we looked like the poster family for Christian values.  My ex is a church musician and rather well known in his field.  I was the daughter of another church musician and a soloist and church educator in my own right.  We lived, breathed, and existed in the arms of the church and were intimately connected to that world.  I defined myself as a person who valued church and spirituality as an integral part of who I was.

As my marriage dissolved, I finally had to face the fact that my husband was not only living a total lie in his private life (multiple affairs), but that many of those liaisons were going on right under the noses of church staff people who KNEW what he was doing but who, for reasons I just can't comprehend, chose to ignore it, refused to believe it, and treated it all as if it were perfectly all right as long as they didn't shake up status quo.  Most of his affairs were with women who were younger, had children, were married, and who were his children's choir directors - women under not only his spiritual authority but in several cases he was their "boss" so to speak.

The sense of betrayal that I felt was centered HUGELY around my disappointment and anger and hurt that this institution I loved and trusted - the church - was actually complicit in helping him continue to manipulate and deceive and lie to me.  While I could not have made it through the dark times during my separation and divorce if it had not been for my deep faith and the feeling that God knew and understood, I no longer attend church or have anything to do with an institution where I have seen so much hypocrisy, mis-handling of these kinds of things, and where their main concern is not to upset anyone so the money will keep flowing in to support the church.  I realized that the church is simply another business on many, many levels.  I had known that for years, you can't be intimately involved in churches without recognizing it on some level, but I guess I just refused to believe the church, as a human institution, was so horribly flawed.

The consequences of all that were that I have learned to separate my deep personal spiritual life from anything that has to do with Public Churchiness.  I no longer go to church, have no desire to join a church, and in fact feel my gut tighten and my throat constrict at the thought of getting involved in another church.  What I DO know, is that NONE OF THAT has anything to do with what I know about God.  I think God weeps over the dysfunction of the churches a lot more than WE do, and that He hasn't visited a lot of them in a long while, LOL.  

Also, ANYONE who calls themselves a Christian and counsels a woman to stay in any kind of abusive relationship, be it physical, verbal or emotional abuse, needs to spend a lot more time getting to know God.  I don't believe God wants ANYONE to "hang in there" as our souls and our lives are being sucked from us and we are being destroyed.  I stayed in my marriage for 32 years because I believed, wrongly, that as a Christian I was in it for life.  That God hated divorce.  Well, maybe, but I also He probably is more disturbed when one of his precious children is being abused by a partner who promised to love and cherish her.

Honey

[~Solo]

SEFG:  Yes, I think people can appear bizarre at times too!  But in reading your last post, I felt similar in that my christian friend has kind of had the same "attitude".  I think what happens (at least for me) is that this sort of abuse and devestation put me into a "needier place" AND I have read about the "rumination" that occurs due to the normal mind not being able to conceive of something that makes little to no sense!  So, I may have put this out there too much.  I'm sure no-one can get this!  Even she has said (knowing very detailed scenes of the abuse!) only I know what I have been through.  In fact, our friends that we have in common have expressed some of the same thoughts even though they think my husband is simply being a "jerk".  It's severity and impact on my spirit is reduced to him being a "one dimensional jerk"?  When in fact, from my experience, the subtle poisoning from his multifaceted evil being has attacked me from every possible angle.  It takes a lot of talking and figuring out!  AND, you WANT more than anything for people to say, "you're in a bad situation, this ISN'T you".  We need to be understood and validated.  It's a lot for most people to deal with unfortunately for us.  I read somewhere in here about how we sit quietly in pain.  That's true because if we did talk about EVERYTHING that has happened, we would appear nuts as is what happens to the partner of an N, from what I read.  YOU appear to be the unstable one.  Its such an injustice..... 

I'm glad you enjoyed sharing and don't feel "compromised"  Thank you again.         

[~Solo]

HONEY:
As my marriage dissolved, I finally had to face the fact that my husband was not only living a total lie in his private life (multiple affairs), but that many of those liaisons were going on right under the noses of church staff people who KNEW what he was doing but who, for reasons I just can't comprehend, chose to ignore it, refused to believe it, and treated it all as if it were perfectly all right as long as they didn't shake up status quo.  Most of his affairs were with women who were younger, had children, were married, and who were his children's choir directors - women under not only his spiritual authority but in several cases he was their "boss" so to speak.

I cannot EVEN imagine this Honey.  I'm just in awe that someone could do these things to another human being!  What is wrong with people "not stepping up" and telling the truth?  What a blessing to not be with that man any longer...truly.  I wish I had more evidence so that I could just shut off, but then maybe I don't need to know whys and hows.  Maybe just the pain and the actions and reactions of my N are enough!  He is totally textbook (porn and all!).
  

Also, ANYONE who calls themselves a Christian and counsels a woman to stay in any kind of abusive relationship, be it physical, verbal or emotional abuse, needs to spend a lot more time getting to know God.  I don't believe God wants ANYONE to "hang in there" as our souls and our lives are being sucked from us and we are being destroyed.  I stayed in my marriage for 32 years because I believed, wrongly, that as a Christian I was in it for life.  That God hated divorce.  Well, maybe, but I also He probably is more disturbed when one of his precious children is being abused by a partner who promised to love and cherish her.

I agree with you on this and I was even preparing myself for the dissolution of the friendship if need be.  I cried when I read your last line; "Well, maybe, but I also He probably is more disturbed when one of his precious children is being abused by a partner who promised to love and cherish her"  My thought was always that I was assumed to be the sacrifice for someone who treats me so terribly and doesn't love god!  Also, my friend/& her hubby, who are also my husband's friends pray for my N's salvation all the time!  I almost wonder if she feels like she is repenting for her own sins of alcoholism and infidelity by believing in this non believer and waiting for the "miracle" as to be testimony to "faith in god" and the possibility of ANYTHING!  Ugh... so much of a mind screw I'm not saying "anything is possible" with God.  I guess I'm saying when you're sick, you go see a doctor AND pray to god, not pray to god ONLY.  

~Solo

[CZBZ]

"CZ, it's interesting to hear your story in regards to spirituality & how it helped you in healing.  Also, that you returned to your church of origin." ~SEFG

I returned to my religion-of-origin as a way to better understand myself. How my ideals, values and beliefs had been formed as a child. How I came to believe that 'love' would cure all that ails the human heart. How my family's culture had both improved and undermined the way I viewed the world. There's no doubt in my mind that a religious upbringing increased my resiliency and prevented me from falling head-first into a pit of despair. However, going back to church was a very different experience than 'slipping into old routines and modes of thinking'. It was more like being a Detective on church pews and figuring out why I had continued to believe marriage was an eternal commitment and that MY JOB was to support my husband's struggles and anti-religious behavior. I doubt most people had any clue what was going on in my mind and frankly, I wasn't even sure why I returned to church! It took years for me to leave...a true struggle to separate from my religious culture and define for myself what "I" thought and what "MY" philosophy on life was because I differ from church-think in many, many ways. In hindsight, I can see my intuition at work, telling me to grab my hat and heels and head for the chapel because this has, indeed, led to deeper understanding of 'who i am'.

However, let me say (as long as we're being honest), that I do not subscribe to dogma hook-line-and-Stinker. I like the religious community for the serious attempts people are making to care about and serve one another. This is a great way to cut through ego-inflation and encourage not only humility, but also 'connection' to others as peers. What I have found frustrating though, is people's reluctance to entertain the idea that no one religion has all the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I see a lot of narcissism in religions that define themselves by 'otherizing' others. This makes it pretty tough to get along with friends who lack a desire to give respect to 'all' religions or even take a small leap out of their narcissism and think critically about their 'beliefs'. I'm not very popular.  

I love people and highly respect the human need for an individual spiritual experience coupled with a communal expression of Awe for the mystery of life.

Maybe my religious nature is similar to my politics? I'm non-partisan which doesn't mean I can't make up my mind but freedom is of high value to me. It also makes life a little harder when you question everything instead of following the party line.  


Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

Bible and Narcissism

Here is what is Sandra Brown wrote about biblical references in Women Who Love Psychopaths:

The Institute is always asked how this is, or is not, supported in spiritual doctrine, namely Christianity. Although The Institute is planning a book in the future about how pathology is referenced to in scripture and shown as early as the Garden of Eden forward, I thought I would take a few paragraphs to address the issue of psychological and spiritual evil as documented in Jewish and Christian doctrine.

To review, DSM-IV, Women Who Love Psychopaths and other literature has described the psychopath’s behavior as:

fails to follow laws or rules/uses unethical
unlawful and immoral behavior
deceitful
lies
cons for fun or profit
impulsive
wants it/takes it
sees it/does it
aggression
disregard for the safety of others
puts others at risk
irresponsible
lack of remorse
rationalizes stealing, lying

Page 56

He is Flying Under the Radar and pretends to be wonderful, helpful, supportive

This description also matches many spiritual references to the devil masquerading as an Angel of Light or Satan in some of his more appealing and beautiful forms, calling others to himself before exposing
who he really is.

The following table compares pathology traits side-by-side. The material in the first column is from the DSM-IV which describes Cluster B personality disorder traits/sociopathy/psychopathy, from Women Who Love Psychopaths, or other literature about pathology referencing the traits.

The second column is from Old Testament (of the Jewish faith) and New Testament (of the Christian faith) as examples of the definition of evil. You could most likely find similar definitions of evil in other
religious texts from other religions as well.

Unfortunately the tables are not going to lay out in the method, but you get the point.

Table 3.1


Grandiose, self important and preoccupied with self
Wants people to worship him
Fantasizes about power, brilliance, success, and money

Says to God I WILL ascend, I Will Rise (Showing power fantasies)

Requires excessive admiration

Says You WILL bow down to me

Is entitled Wants the same power as God, feels he's as powerful as God

Exploits all relationships Tries to lure others to do his dirty work in the world
Lacks empathy Envious of others

Superior attitude towards others Is superior to other angels in power and authority

Women Who Love Psychopaths Page 57


Contempt for others especially authority figures
Fights against God and wants His power
Use power and authority over others

Called the Prince of Power
Prideful Heart is filled with pride and contempt

Splits people against each other Turned 1/3 of the angels
against God and took them

Destroy and deceive others (and enjoy doing it)
Called The Destroyer and Deceiver

Often charming or attractive Lucifer called the most beautiful, name means the
shining one

Often rejected, expelled, dismissed, broken up with because of behavior

God expelled him from Heaven
Places are created to contain them: jail, prison, mental institutions, probation

Fights against any rules and others who try to make him
conform

Fights against God to ruin and hinder His plans

Masquerades as anything you want him to be
Masquerades as the Angel of Light

Likes to scare others and show power so others fear him
Prowls like a roaring lion

Bold, cunning, self ambitious Boldness, subtlety in his
cunningness

Self willed and strong, prideful self will

Narcissistic wanting to be better than everyone

Said I will be like the Most High

Fakes being wonderful, helpful, virtuous

Many false prophets have gone in the world (like him),

It is clear in some spiritual texts that spiritual evil has almost no separation from psychological evil, or vice versa. In the end, there are some things we do not totally understand such as how the spirit realm can
affect the psychological realm, or how ones pathology may taint their spirit.

But it has been clear to me, and hundreds of survivors, that evil straddles vocabularies and worlds of both psychological definitions and spiritual ones as well.

The spiritual union of souls when united to a psychopath is like none other. Those who have united in the spiritual realm can attest to the evil witnessed in that sharing. There is still much to learn about how psychology and theology meld.


Conclusion
In this chapter we looked at some of the issues related to the unique traits of the psychopath and why they manage to fool so many people for so long. Women often need to forgive themselves for being conned by someone so sick. In all honesty, this is a disorder that hides well in the midst of society. Acceptance is probably a more appropriate description than forgiveness.

Flying under society‘s radar included their unique traits related to:

being unrecognizable and hiding well
not always violent
side-swiped her financially
prolific brain games
exploitive ethics
impression management while conscienceless
the spiritual experience of evil

With unusual symptoms that most people don‘t look for in someone else, the psychopath is free to blow in and blow out of people‘s lives, leaving wounded women in his wake. Yet his behavior and emotions are not the only unusual things about a psychopath. The biological differences
in his brain open up a whole new territory to explore.

END BOOK  QUOTE

[LDW]

Susy... there's only one word to be said: SCARY!!!!

[SusyP14]

Susy... there's only one word to be said: SCARY!!!!

This is my favorite sentence:

Often rejected, expelled, dismissed, broken up with because of behavior

[honeybearII]

SEFG, it is funny you mentioned Proverbs because I did exactly the same thing.  I took great delight in thinking about all the ways God would strike my exNH down, LOL.  Same with a lot of the Psalms when they get off on the whole "enemy" thing.  Then somewhere in the past few years I realized I didn't really see that anything terrible was affecting exNH and that if there IS justice it sure isn't going to be in this life, LOL.

Some time, for our own mental health, we just have to let it all go.  Not that I still wouldn't like to see him "smitten".   And I don't mean with some other woman.
Honey

[Freezer Burned]

Solo,

"In fact, salvation of my husband has been something she has hoped and prayed for for a long time."

I can't help but wonder if she ever said that she prayed for you, for what was best for you.

People can be so concerned for the abuser, while being so stern with the victim.

[~Solo]

Freezerburned:  Yes, she prays for me, but the fact that so much weight is placed on his salvation makes me wonder if I'm looked at like some sort of sacrifice?  How does the abuser have support?  They're good....really good.

[Proud2B]

Solo,
Maybe it isn't so much that you're a sacrifice, but he problably NEEDS it more than you do. 
Proud2B

[RB22]

One thing about being the survivor of an "N" relationship, is that I've learned to trust myself and recognize the divine within me.

So very true.  We are all interconnected with the divine.  Unless we choose to turn our back on that connection. 

I am a cradle catholic, practicing my faith now and raising my kids in the religion I was married in. X was also a cradle catholic.  I don't know what he practices. 

But I do remember saying to several people when asked what happened to end my marriage.. that we had a religious difference of opinion.. he thought he was God, I disagreed.  And truthfully that about sums it my marriage. 

he wanted out, I let him go, with love.  I loved him enough to let him go.

It wasn't until years later that I started seeing how messed up my life with him was...how abusive he was during our marriage, I could easily see the abuse AFTER the divorce, but had a tough time seeing it during the marriage.   

When our oldest were about to be confirmed, my X made a stink to the Bishop that I, and the DRE and the Youth Director were FORCING my kids to receive their confirmation.  NOT TRUE, but it cause our church a bit of a snafu... including my kids having a meeting with the Bishop to find out exactly what was going on!  The kids were confirmed... and guess who was sitting waaaay in the back for the ceremony???

Bishop has told me.. (round 2 with younger 2 kids confirmation  repeat)  that X is a coward, and cowards need to be outed and spotlighted and what he is doing to his kids is what he calls religion abuse.  I just feel it is my X being an arse trying to control something he can't control.  My pastor thinks NOW would be a good time to ask for an annulment.  LOL.

For me, being a Christian means doing things thru/with love.... and forgiveness.  The hardest part is the forgiveness... although letting go with love was hard.

Hugs,

RB

PS... divorce is about loving yourself enough to take the advice you would give a friend.  to get out of an abusive situation.  I truly think that MrsX is influenced by satan... no mother should let someone they love treat kids the way she has, and encouraged X to do. 

[practicaljude]

The way I see religion (whether it's christian, muslim, buddhist etc) is that it helps us to remember our interconnectedness by experiencing it from within (inner-connectedness). I’m not a very religious person but I do believe that people have the right to have their own definition of “God” and to me that encompasses more than doctrine, dogma, rituals, tradition or a religious identity. When I dance, sing, hear music that gives me the shivers, when I help others, give love, feel loved, I simply know there’s more. And that feeling is the essence, that’s what matters most as far as I’m concerned. – LDW

If I were to explain my ideas of “religion” this would be it, so thanks for saying it all so poetically.  “The shivers”, the peace, the epiphany, the heavy-heart feeling, the severity of pain and joy…as you say, “I simply know there’s more.”  Beautiful.

The Narc takes advantage of the symbols, dogma's, rituals and set of values (do's and dont's rules) that come with a religion, his ultimate goal is to get you to question yourself and use your beliefs against you. Stay grounded in the essence of your religion which is to feel part of 'all that is' and to experience connectedness, just don't count on the Narc wanting to be part of that as well. LDW

IMO, this is the key point to healing from N injury.  It doesn’t have to be about religion…could be (and usually is) about any damn thing he can debate.  He’s after your soul to replace his…don’t give it to him.

Also, ANYONE who calls themselves a Christian and counsels a woman to stay in any kind of abusive relationship, be it physical, verbal or emotional abuse, needs to spend a lot more time getting to know God.  I don't believe God wants ANYONE to "hang in there" as our souls and our lives are being sucked from us and we are being destroyed.  I stayed in my marriage for 32 years because I believed, wrongly, that as a Christian I was in it for life.  That God hated divorce.  Well, maybe, but I also He probably is more disturbed when one of his precious children is being abused by a partner who promised to love and cherish her. – Honey

Well put.  You’ve been through so much, Honey, and I admire you so.  I don’t like the thought of divorce, either, but I know God was there with me in court, and most likely the one most responsible for getting me there.
 
Finding 'connection' in spirituality seems to be true for most Americans I've met on message boards which makes it tough when you can't talk about your religious/spiritual experiences without causing conflict. Still, a great number of people have written about spiritual experiences during a crisis (like being abandoned or replaced after years of marriage) and some of those people had never considered themselves to be religious prior to the experience. CZ

Most everything I’ve read and studied regarding healing after a traumatic event mentions helping a victim by finding out about and reinforcing their spiritual beliefs. Again, I’ll repeat what LDW said, having faith and simply believing “there’s more” is a proven healing modality.  I believe having a group, or community of believers, enhances healing and the quality of life.  I don’t believe it has anything to do with a building, and matter of fact, the walls may be self-limiting.  I recently went to a church service and this was my experience, all over again.  This is only my opinion, but I believe we can learn more and feel more of “God” in field work…lol!

 
Jude

[RB22]

I don't know why he was questioning the kids getting confirmed... other than to make me (and others he thought were infringing on his time with HIS kids) jump thru hoops.  Earlier in the year he had a problem with the timing of confirmation classes... they met sunday morning after mass.  His visitation ended sunday evening.  he was tooo far away to bring the kids to class (forget about mass) so they would have to forget about class on the weeks they were with him.  the Youth director called X and asked IF he started a smaller class.. (just for my kids and maybe one other kid in a similar sitch)  on sunday night... would that work so the kids could continue with their studies.  X agreed. 

Well until it came to getting the kids to the halfway point to meet me, in order for them to get to class on time.  The YD called him on it.... more than once.  It really wasn't about them being confirmed as much as it was about him causing my church... more trouble.  And he hated the youth director... who was giving my kids advice such as get involved in your community, church, etc.. find something to believe in... and believe in it with your whole heart.....  he was the pied piper my kids (and I) needed at that moment.  he was and still is, their big brother.  He moved 7 hours away 3 years ago.... we still visit him and his wife.   My X hates that too.

anyway... that was not what I wanted to tell you about... when the YD came into our life there were a core group of kids who he hung with after group and classes... and he decided to start a small group study that met in homes.  The kids group was so successful, the parents wanted an adult group.  We met until he left. He still meets with others... the kids still meet via webcam with him, even though most of them are at different colleges around the US.  The group is called Communion and Liberation. It is Catholic Laiety based, mostly studying the writings of Fr.  Luigi Giussani.  His studies of Christ are very interesting... dealing mostly with his humanity and questioning how we can become more like HIM.... not much on doctrine, or dogma... just taking what we know Jesus did...and how he lived and questioning how we can in the future, do similar things in our life situations thru love and being closer to God. 

At one point our group had an Agnostic, a Muslim, a seminarian, a couple of priests,  as well as several Catholics.   It always led to very interesting conversations about living day to day with putting what we believe into practice.  It isn't always easy.... but the challenge is always there...

Hugs,

RB