Narcissist AND sociopath or psychopath?

[~Solo]

Before I knew my husband was a narcissist and Histrionic, I thought for sure he was a psychopath.  The Milon testing done by our marriage counselor did not come up with that, however I am surprised due to his more than strange reactions and actions.  Does anyone know if that is something that is not tested for on the Milon?  How common is it for someone to have narcissism AND be sociopath or psychopath?

Also: the distinction between the two?  Psychopath is born, sociopath is an evolution?  

~Solo

[Litha]

Hi solo,
The terminology is not very clear, and confuses many people (even "experts"). You can read more about that on the Lovefraud site:

http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/psychopath_or_sociopath.html

Since the main symptoms of Narcissism are lack of empathy and remorse, which are also major symptoms of sociopaths/psychopaths, diagnoses tend to overlap.

I think figuring out his correct label is not as important as figuring out what it did to you. You know he is sick with some disorder that makes it possible for him to hurt you and not care, and you know he will never "get better." That is enough.

The important thing now is to protect yourself so he can't keep hurting you, and also to seek healing from the hurts he has already inflicted. 

[CZBZ]

Dear solo,


There is some comfort in having a perfect diagnosis, though even professionals disagree a little more than half the time when diagnosing a client. Now that psychologists are releasing a new edition of the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders ), even the former criteria for NPD is being reviewed, reconsidered, and reclassified. Many people have appealed to DSM work committee to clarify distinctions between personality disorders and define psychopathy more accurately. Even between professionals, there are differences of opinion so we'll leave it up to them to sort this out. 

In the meantime, let me say that a lot of people have written about narcissism that is so similar to psychopathy that it's hard to distinguish the difference. This is what I view as The Malignant Narcissism Syndrome which IS more accurately defined as 'psychopathic'. Few people are actually dealing with malignant narcissists (or psychopaths), but if you're one of those 'few', it doesn't dismiss what you've been through. Even a small percentage lie 1.5% is a huge number considering the size of the American population. LoveFraud.com makes that point on their website. The likelihood of encountering a psychopathic person is actually 'high' (workplace, neighborhoods, etc.). Becoming familiar with Red Flags can help us avoid psychopathic people though I kinda think most people won't be able to spot those Red Flags until 'afterwards'. After they've been harmed in some way---financially (psychopaths/sociopaths are financial predators), emotionally, or even physically and most definitely Spiritually.

How was that for a long introduction??? I'm formulating an answer to your question while i type. 

How common is it for someone to have narcissism AND be sociopath or psychopath?

Pretty common actually. It all depends on the definition of sociopathic or psychopathic. It's far more common to be narcissistic, though. Sometimes the narcissism is severe enough to border on Malignant Narcissism in which case there is little hope of treatment and definitely no hope for cure.

Narcissistic traits, as we've written before on this forum, can ruin a relationship and cause suffering and harm for others. The narcissist, protected by ego defenses, never suffers to the degree other people suffer which is why it's valuable to learn about narcissism, even if there are only a few narcissistic traits disrupting the creation of a safe and loving relationship. Those traits can become pathological during times of stress and I include Midlife as a very stressful time for someone who has narcissistic vulnerabilities. This is when some of us will witness a 'or treated) by Midlife, it will likely get worse as the narcissist ages.

On forums, people started using the initials N/P to write about Ns whose behavior was intentionally malicious, consciously manipulative, and cruelly sadistic (finding pleasure in hurting vulnerable people). I think we were trying to find a way to distinguish the difference between 'garden variety narcissists' who appeared to be oblivious, and narcissistic-psychopathic narcissists who were fully aware of the impact they had on others and the crueler, the better.

There's been a transition from the early days (2002) writing about narcissism the way Sam Vaknin defined it, to where we are today: writing about narcissism as a dimensional aspect of human personality. But make no mistake here, benign narcissism is NOT what we're describing on THIS forum. We are writing about pathological narcissism that borders on psychopathy (at least in times of severe stress and frustration).

In answer to your question, LOLLOL (I'm werkin' on it!): Is it common for someone to have narcissism and psychopathy/sociopathy? On this forum, i'd say "Yes." Out in the big, non-clinical world? I'd say "No." The important thing is to look at what's happening in your relationship right now. Does the narcissist show empathy for you? Is the narcissist grandiose, as in 'conceited' and 'arrogant'? Does the narcissist care about his impact on your (or his family-of-creation) or is he focused on what he wants without any remorse for hurting others?? How does he react to criticism? Without a certain degree of tolerance for criticism, there's not much anyone can do to help---not even professionals. As soon as the narcissist feels 'criticized' or 'judged', they'll bolt from therapy like wild horses in a holding pen.

There are two factors which may be predictors for malignant narcissism: 1) the inability to sustain long-term commitments; 2) the inability to tolerate criticism without extreme reactions, including narcissistic rage.

"Psychopath is born, sociopath is an evolution?"

LoveFraud.com can answer your questions better than I. I tend to believe both perceptions are accurate whether someone is labelled a P or a S. I also think malignant narcissists are 'created', not born. Whether they were never given limits to their grandiosity or had the self-esteem beat out of 'em as children, narcissism is the result of their environment. In the case of malignant narcissists, it's fair to say they are more like psychopaths than garden-variety narcissists. Hopefully, the new DSM-V edition will clarify the distinctions better than the information we have today.

I also lean towards the theory that it takes 'both' to make a narcissist: nurture AND nature. And 'nurture' is not entirely the fault of parenting. Social factors, cultural factors, economic and other factors play a huge part in the development (or amelioration) of unhealthy narcissism. Far too often, parents are held solely responsible for raising a narcissistic child but it's a limited view that lets society off the hook for having an equal if not greater impact on the child. That's my view after getting to know a parent who had a child diagnosed with NPD. She did not abuse nor spoil her child to an excess but other factors magnified his predisposition for malignant narcissism. That's the conclusion we came to anyway since none of her other children had psychological problems. he was sociopathic and the only way to determine that was to witness his behavior. He preyed on women, used 'em, stole their money, and walked away without any remorse at all. It makes you wonder about brain development when someone lacks empathy to such a degree.

Can anyone tell me what i just wrote??  Sorry about rambling but your questions are quite complex....good questions, though. It's always valuable to put our 'intuitive' awareness into words. Eventually, we ramblers figure out what we think. 


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

Also, I wrote this kinda silly (but VERY serious!) article about the PCL-R after reading one of Dr. Leedom's articles on LoveFaud:



NPD: Narcissistic Psychopathic Dumplings


This is Wikipedia's page on the PCL-R: Hare Psychopathy Checklist

Great questions though, Solo! I'd love hearing how other people had sorted out the distinctions between Narcissism, Malignant Narcissism, Psychopathy, and Sociopathy.


Hugs,
CZ

[LDW]

You could say that the Narcissist is a "garden variety psychopath" who, because of his or her "social programming," has less likelihood of running afoul of the law. In this way, they are very efficient "survival machines," living out their lives doing untold damage to their families, friends and business associates.

It is only when a person takes a long and careful look at the full-blown psychopath - a sort of exaggerated Narcissist - that they are able to see the caricature of the traits that then make it easier for them to identify the "garden variety" psychopath - and/or the Narcissist.

More about the socially adept psychopath (S.A.P.):

http://users.hal-pc.org/~rcanup/sap.html

[CZBZ]

"It is only when a person takes a long and careful look at the full-blown psychopath - a sort of exaggerated Narcissist - that they are able to see the caricature of the traits that then make it easier for them to identify the "garden variety" psychopath - and/or the Narcissist."

Excellent point~ Excellent! It explains why Vaknin's autobiographical writings were able to GET THROUGH my thick head and shock me into REALITY. Maybe narcissists are not as vindictive, sadistic and callous as full-blown psychopaths but as long as we retain the idea that they 'aren't that bad', we stay stuck in our own illusions.

I like the word 'caricature'. You've given me a new perspective. I liked Guggehbuhl-Craig's book, The Emptied Soul which forced internal examination into the ways everyone behaves pschopathically. However, that can lead to minimizing a disorder or seeing pathology in ourselves. We need to see the caricature in all its hideous forms.

An exaggerated caricature allows us to notice differences that may have remained hidden as long as we can't imagine the severity of the psychopathic disorder.

Boy, I need to ponder this idea. Thank you!


Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

Here is a little test.  Here is the DSM criteria for several personality disorders but I have left the disorders off.  Going by traits alone since xn will NEVER be diagnosed, I am sure, I blindly selected EVERYTHING under NPD, and half under anti-social and half under psychopathy.  I believe xn to be an extremely malignant narc.  The only thing keeping him from full blown psychopathy is not trouble with the law (that I am aware of).  Let me know how your SO score.

BTW, this is a test you don't want to make a perfect score on 

1   Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors
2   Deceitfulness
3   Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4   Irritability and aggressiveness as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
5   Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
6   Consistent irresponsibility as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
7   Lack of remorse as indicated by being indifferent about having hurt, mistreated or stolen from another.
8   Manipulativeness
9   Insincerity
10   Egocentricity
11   Lack of guilt
   
12   Glib and superficial charm
13   Grandiose estimation of self
14   Need for stimulation
15   Pathological lying
16   Cunning and manipulativeness
17   Lack of remorse or guilt
18    Shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
19   Callousness and lack of empathy
20   Parasitic lifestyle
21   Poor behavioral controls
22   Sexual promiscuity
23   Early behavioral problems
24   Lack of realistic long term goals
25   Impulsivity
26   Irresponsibility
27   Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
28   Many short term marital relationships
29   Juvenile delinquency
30   Revocation of conational release
31   Criminal versatility
   
32   Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. .
33    A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. 
34   Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. 
35   Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
36   Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior 
37   Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood
38    Chronic feelings of emptiness 
39     Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights) 
40   Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms   
41   "An grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
42   "Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
43   Believes he is special and unique and can only be understood by with other special or high status people or institutions
44   "Requires excessive admiration
45   "Has a sense of entitlement

46   Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends
47   Lacks empathy

48   "Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him

49   Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes
   
50   Exibitionist behavior
51   Constant seeking of reassurance or approval
52   Excessive dramatics with exaggerated displays of emotions.
53   Excessive sensitivity to criticism or disapproval.
54   Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior.
55   Excessive concern with physical appearance.
56   Making rash decisions
57   A need to be the center of attention.
58   Low tolerance for frustration or delayed gratification.
59   Rapidly shifting emotional states that may appear superficial or exaggerated to others.
60   Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are.

[LDW]

~It explains why Vaknin's autobiographical writings were able to GET THROUGH my thick head and shock me into REALITY.~ CZ

 

Here's the link (once again) where I found this discription of the narcissist as a 'garden variety' psychopath. It's so true though... the damage they do is maybe even worse because they do it in ways that are less socially condemned or in ways that the public never gets it, or becomes 'aware'. When a serial killer psychopath finally gets caught and is sent to prison for the rest of his life, the victims at least got validation from the shocked outside world for what they've gone through... however... with a narcissist it's an ongoing slow process of destroying you, they're always walking that invisible line of what could still be defined at first sight as somewhat 'bizar behaviour', whereas it IS very very malignant and pathological.

 

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

Yes... We need to see the caricature in all its hideous forms!!!

L

[~Solo]

Great questions though, Solo! I'd love hearing how other people had sorted out the distinctions between Narcissism, Malignant Narcissism, Psychopathy, and Sociopathy.


Hugs,
CZ
[/quote]

One thing that kind of stands out for my N is that he seemed so different in the beginning and when I discontinued to wait on his every move (initial love stage) and began to tell him things I didn't think were so great, it was almost as if it threw him into a state of stress and then his defenses (coping mechanisms) kicked in.  Something similar to that was mentioned in Sam Vaknin's book, "Malignant Self Love".  So, maybe malignant Narcissism?