Wow!

[FreeGal]

I am happy to find you all!

After a 16 year marriage and 3 wonderful boys...knowing all along that things weren't right...abuse of all kinds, rages, control etc., I finally understand what I've been living with!  There is no question my ex is an N!!!

Instinctively I could not leave my children over all those years, as I didn't trust him.  They are now 16, 14 and 12 and although terrified to share them with this high functioning NPD  - I can no longer live with it myself. They are handsome, smart and obvious good Supply to N by making him look good!

Any advice on when, if, how to tell my intelligent and sensitive boys about their N father?  Do I, don't I...OR do I just provide a good example of a "real" human being?

I'm nervous of the divorce ahead but believe in the process of life and have full faith I have the strength and support to make it just fine! I have read mammoth amounts of material, I have excellent support systems in place, I've learned on my own and since been validated on how to handle this creature, monster, misfit, child.

I look forward to sharing my journey, it's comforting to know you are all there!  Strength in numbers:))

I'm definitely a newbie and I'm a FreeGal!

[honeybearII]

Hi, FreeGal.  Welcome!  We are a community here, and our intent is to help people heal from the agony of having been in relationship with an N.

I was married to the exNH for 32 years, had 3 incredible children with him.  My advice to you concerning your children is to be honest if they ask, but don't offer too much too soon.  Most people here will tell you that it is the work of our children to come to terms with their own relationship with their N-pareNt.  One thing I had to do was take myself out of the equation, be there to love on my kids and to simply tell my truth.  My children were all in their 30s when the marriage imploded.  I said too much, too soon, and it put a wedge between me and my children for a time.  It has been 6 years since I left him, 4 since the divorce and 3 since my marriage to a wonderful man.  My kids tried very hard at first to NOT take sides and actually rallied around Poor Dad because he made them think he was so devastated at my leaving.  It didn't take long, however, for them to begin to see all the cracks in his story - the women around, the firing from his church musician job due to sleeping with his children's choir director, the way he treated them once I was no longer there as a buffer to soften the blow of dealing with his Narcissism.

Eventually they will figure it out and figure out their own way of dealing with the man who fathered them.

Honey

[CZBZ]

We're very glad you found us, too, FreeGal!

So many people express the same concerns about leaving a narcissist when they have children. Tough decision----it all depends on the degree of abuse maybe. Not every narcissist is life-threatening but they're all difficult to live with. That's probably a fair thing to say. The difficulty increases the less we know about pathological behavior. As long as we assume our partner is behaving rationally, we keep questioning our own relational skills instead of realizing the problem is "OUT THERE". It's a confusing disorder, pathological narcissism. When you finally understand how the narcissist thinks, it's such a huge relief, isn't it? Like all of a sudden, everything 'clicks' and makes sense! That crazylaNd we live in before knowing about personality disorders is exhausting, excruciating and extra hard on our self-esteem.

I like Honey's advice about not telling your children too much, too soon. It can indeed drive a wedge between yourself and your children. When we tell them that a parent is kinda nutty (how's that for a euphemism?), they automatically rush to the narcissistic parent's defense. That means we appear to be Persecutors. It just doesn't work to tell children their parents are pathological when what they see is a competent and powerful parent. We look crazy, not the N.

Now that narcissism is being talked about in our culture, kids have a chance to figure it out on their own. They may get a 'shallow' understanding that minimizes the harm narcissists do to other people. The stronger they become in themselves though and the better their relationship with you becomes, the faster they'll notice how abnormal their father is. You don't want to drive a wedge between yourself and your kids...the safer they feel with you (and pathologizing a parent makes kids feel 'unsafe'...they may even keep secrets because they fear your reactions), the more capable they are of recognizing their father's narcissism.

You are in the process of divorce right now? What made you finally come to this decision? And one more question, does your husband WANT the divorce, too? You don't have to answer any questions if you're uncomfortable doing so...though it helps to know a little bit more about your situation. It sounds like you've been reading about NPD which is so important. The more you know, the easier it is to stop reacting.



Hugs,
CZ

[eyes_up]

Hi Free Gal, Here is a method I thought of that not only would be supportive of your sons but it would mean a good relationship with them as well. I am thinking you could express the differences in values to your son and that you do not share the same values as their father. This way you can teach your value system and stand behind that and be suppotive of them as they figure thier father out through time.

I was able to understand how off my father was so my mother never really had ot tell me. what did happen is that I was allowed to not have to hold on to socially acceptable feelings and that my feelings were acceptable and this makes all the difference in the world.

As you accept your experience and allow for your own space then your sons will learn they have the same rights which means when dad starts his power control tactics your sons will know the difference. You have been an example of not allowing control tactics to create your relationship with yourself and it leave space for your sons to be who they are with out having to prove to a disordered parent.

My mother never held back on telling my father was nuts. I say it worked out fine for this. A lot of work I didn't have to do in the future. I didn't have to wonder and think about it too much. I was able to process my father behavior and know that it wasn't coming from a healthy person. That was my experience. I don't know that the better choice is refraining from exposing BUT I also know that often if the child doesn't get it or understand it yet that it very well could create a problem between the child and the bearer of bad news. I just happened to be OK with the information. I don't know that all kids are at that point.

eyes

[Litha]

Welcome Freegal, I love your name and your attitude.

eyes up, I really like what you said about teaching the children by example. Children are so perceptive, and they watch us all the time whether we know it or not.

[FreeGal]

Thank you all - I cannot tell you the relief I feel to be able to talk to those "in the know"  I've felt very lonely in the last few months, realizing that my ex is a N and knowing I have chosen to divorce him.  Family and close friends have been supportive, but noone really knows unless you've lived it, do they?

I appreciate the advice for helping my boys - values, lead by example, time and let them come to their own realization (I believe they are quietly there anyway!)

You asked me about how I came to the decision of divorce.  I was charmed to the alter in 11 months, had 3 babies in 4.5 years, left a major financial services career to become financially dependent and realized in that first 5 years that I was married to a monster.  I simply could not leave and to have to share my babies.  I got caught in the instantaneous moments and lost sight of the big picture.  I often saw a child in my N and wanted to nurture it.  I often referred to friends as having four children, being married to a man that had the emotional inteligence of a 10 year old etc.

Finally, last year January 2009, my kids at 15, 13 and 11 years, I listened to myself for the first time in years. And I heard loud and clear that I was going to make myself sick if I carried on.  So I finally announced out of the blue in June 2009 that i wanted a divorce - only to find out that he had had his lawyer for 4 years.  I believe he would have lived status quo for the rest of our lives.  I believe he would like to reunite today. 

I am clear, calm and completely DONE!  I now need some advice on how to divorce him quickly to salvage as much as I can - what is the best way to settle with a N?

[~Solo]

Welcome FreeGal!   

I've been on here for only a week and only married for a year and a half (4 year relationship) without children.  So, I'm not going to be big on advice but it's amazing just reading your first sentence, "No one really knows unless they've lived it, do they?".  I can see from my experience already that they definitely do not!  I haven't made it out yet, but scheduled for April 4th.  Even though he's told me time and time again he wants a divorce, I have not told him my plan since it could complicate things.

He had his lawyer for four years?  He would have lived the status quo?  What do you mean exactly?  And he's moved out of the house?  All the questions  .  You sound like you are adjusting well already even though I'm sure it's difficult.  Inspiring! 

~Solo 

[FreeGal]

Well who's to really know if he did indeed have his lawyer for 4 years - I don't believe anything he tells me now that I understand the N's life of lies and fabrications - however, I have discovered that there is always a small element of truth in his lies and therefore I do believe he had his lawyer for 4 years - which makes me wonder what else he was up to for 4 years...?

Status quo?  What I mean by this is - he had it really good...and he knows it!  I am a good person, I provided a fantastic life for N and our family - he would be a fool to let it go - I made him look good - I worked hard (4 marriage counsellors - only the 4th recognized his fears but never labelled it N) to try to make our marriage work (this, in the end I've realized, he could have cared less about) - I brought many new things to his life that he could never have imagined - he caught a good one.  So, why would he give it up, even though he was self-sabotaging himself?  He would have lived status quo to maintain his image and likely because he knew he wouldn't ever have it as good again

I often wonder, why me? Why must I travel this journey?  But then I forgive myself as I realize I was vulnerable for love and babies (of which I got three great ones!) when I first met him and was lured to the altar in 11 months.

So now, I toss between feeling scared for my future and feeling free and elated for my future.  I am confident about my kids' innate security and fundamental trust and love for me as their mother.  I am confident they see and feel their father's different wiring - his difficult and abrasive personality - but they are certainly lured by his "Daddy Big Bucks" behaviour.

So now my question is - how do I divorce him quickly, settle and get on with my life?  There are many changes that come with separation and divorce, the challenge is to stay calm, clear, and make decisions by faith not fear!

[CZBZ]

Narcissists are wary about 'abandonment' and even if we don't realize we're sending out signals that we're changing (or that we're "Onto Them"), they are. A narcissist will also do everything he or she can to maintain power, including possessions and finances which means he may very well have consulted an attorney four years ago in the event you decided to leave. He was preparing himself in case you finally Gave Up. The more individuated we become, the stronger we become, the more separate the narcissist feels...though to most people, creating clear boundaries between themselves and their partner does not mean divorce, rejection and abandonment. It means a healthier, more trustworthy and stronger relationship. This is not how the narcissist interprets our separation from the enmeshment they find comforting because of their ability to 'control' a partner.

My X told me that I was hard to live with. Not that I was an ornery old toad but because of my values and expectations. I didn't let myself off the hook nor anyone else who slept in my house. ha! He had to work pretty darn hard to be as 'good' as I demanded my partner be. Don't misread this anybody---what I'm saying is that a decent person demands his or her partner be 'decent' which means the narcissist has harder time maintaining his or her image.

You haven't mentioned 'infidelity' but oftentimes, when there's the slightest sign that we might be considering ending the relationship, the narcissist will seek an alternative partner. Just in case. He or she may not take action but they're already fishing in the deep, blue sea. They like having 'back-up supply' in the event the marriage is unsustainable. The advantage of a narcissist finding an alternative partner is that they're quick to dump the old life and start anew. This can make divorce much easier although we have to be ready to act quickly and most of us are so shocked (emotionally traumatized) by the affair that we don't take action.

I can't say whether or not you'll be able to divorce quickly, FreeGal. It depends on your husband. Narcissists tend to drag out litigation. It serves two purposes: 1) allows them to 'get even' with their X and 2) proves to everyone what a Good Guy they are. You will have custody issues to work out which might trigger #2. It seems to me that the more people try to prove the N is 'unfit', the more narcissists defend themselves by pointing the abuse finger at us.

You are way ahead of the game though, FreeGal. You already understand what's been going on in your marriage. You've tried counseling for years. You aren't locked in the impression that YOU can impact your husband's willingness to change. This will help you so much when you go to court because you won't be reacting to his narcissism. And you aren't "stunned" by a betrayal either. You have a lot going for you because of the hard work you've done trying to save the marriage and learning everything you could about narcissism.


Hugs,
CZ

[FreeGal]

CZ  - thx for your good, insightful words! 

I may be ahead of the game but not for "wasting" 16 years of my life grieving within the relationship. 

So yes, I get that he's likely had his trists on the side, I'd lost any respect I had for him in the last 4-5 years of our marriage due to his "run in" with a Regulatory Commission (never trusted him, never believed his own proclaimed innocence, he luckily "got off" on a technicality) so it's likely he went searching for other, better Supply than me. 

Now... I can't wait for him to become distracted with another Supply, refrain from stalking me (just found out 10 days ago he's been reading my emails since V-Day - that's Valuation Day not Valentine's Day, ha!) 

However, he is clever and he knows it would not look good on him to bring home permanent Supply for future child sharing settlement. Although it seems it's only a matter of time until the kids will be devalued (my 16 and 14 year old are already seeing the symptoms from him) and not a concern to him anymore. (Funny that we know this and he doesn't at this stage!)

In any case, you gave me clear insight into what you said about NOT focusing on the "unfit, narcissistic, abusive partner" in court to avoid exactly what he's good at ... defending himself by twisting words, actions, histories!

To outsmart these monsters is a game in itself - I can use all the help I can get.  Many thanks CZ please keep it coming!

[CZBZ]

Dear FreeGal,


I'm sorry to say this but a few WoN members have had honest, validated physical abuse by their N-partners. Even with pictures taken by a shelter, their husbands were awarded joint custody. The court's assumption was that SHE was a willing partner...it takes TWO to tango, in other words.

Though my experience on this topic is limited to a few personal friends (relatives) who were physically abused and the women I've known on WoN, it does not seem to work out for women to accuse their husbands of 'abuse' in the hopes of gaining full custody. One of my aunts LOST custody entirely and her husband had been diagnosed with BPD and Anti-social PD. How much worse could you get? But he had a great job, was engaged to a wealthy woman and my Auntie didn't have a pot to p in, as the saying goes. He got the kids. The courts are more concerned about who can keep a roof over the kids heads than parenting skills.

Imagine a woman's frustration level when she expects the courts to Validate her bruised-and-broken photographs and all they say is, "Well, you stayed. You musta like it."

So my basic opinion is that bringing up a partner's mental diagnosis or even his abusive behavior is counterproductive.

In the Tool Shed, I try to post articles about divorces (even murders and suicides) when there's 'diagnosis'. Alleging a 'diagnosis' makes ya look vindictive, mean and crazy yourself AND YET, even with an official diagnosis, the courts say that abusing a wife does not make him an unfit father (or vice versa if the woman is abusive).

Talk Narc with us (or a few close friends, though even they won't quite 'get it') but don't talk Narc with the courts.


Hugs,
CZ

[FreeGal]

Yes, I hear you loud and clear! I wondered why my lawyer brushed off the abuse issues I thought were so important. If it's a "roof over their head"  I'd better get a job before I get to court!

[CZBZ]

O dear, you bring up another problem. If you have been out of the job market for a long time, it may not work in your favor to find a job now. This is something you MUST talk to your attorney about. Your income will be deducted from any support he is forced to pay. I can't advise you on this issue---you have to talk to your attorney.

Your attorney knows that bringing up 'abuse' is opening a can of worms. He probably also knows it won't help your case and it will delay the divorce. It may also cost you a lot of money to pursue abuse allegations and in the end, you haven't gained a thing. A narcissist will defend his Good Guy Image with every penny he has.


Hugs,
CZ

[RB22]

Freegal,

I don't know where you are, but in some states there is what is called "the age of decision"  that is the age that KIDS can 1) have a voice in custody issues and 2) decide visitation.  In my state (US) it is 14, a kid can decide to go against visitation... and in court a kid has just as much say as the parents in living arrangements.   Ask your lawyer if that is an option for your kids... it may require getting a Guardian Ad Litem for them.

Anyway, Welcome. 

Hugs,

RB

[~Solo]

My X told me that I was hard to live with. Not that I was an ornery old toad but because of my values and expectations. I didn't let myself off the hook nor anyone else who slept in my house. ha! He had to work pretty darn hard to be as 'good' as I demanded my partner be. Don't misread this anybody---what I'm saying is that a decent person demands his or her partner be 'decent' which means the narcissist has harder time maintaining his or her image.

This sounds all too familiar!  I have been told by my N husband no one will ever be able to stay with me because I expect way too much and I'm too demanding.... 
I'm glad that you said that a decent person demands that their partner be decent.  That says it all and even the part about them having a harder time maintaining his or her image....always so freeing to read more that validates what I have been feeling.  Thanks CZ!   

[Litha]

Dear FreeGal,
So my basic opinion is that bringing up a partner's mental diagnosis or even his abusive behavior is counterproductive.

In the Tool Shed, I try to post articles about divorces (even murders and suicides) when there's 'diagnosis'. Alleging a 'diagnosis' makes ya look vindictive, mean and crazy yourself AND YET, even with an official diagnosis, the courts say that abusing a wife does not make him an unfit father (or vice versa if the woman is abusive).

Talk Narc with us (or a few close friends, though even they won't quite 'get it') but don't talk Narc with the courts.

Sad but true.

AFTER her divorce was final, a friend of mine was approached by Child Protective Services and law enforcement officials. They told her that her ex-husband had been under their surveillance for some time because of his involvement in child pornography and pedophilia forums. They told her they had evidence that he had been sexually abusing their son. A physical exam confirmed it.

That was YEARS ago, and she is still fighting to keep that predator/father from hurting their son.
 
She had never suspected he was capable of such a crime, but his lawyer still tries to paint her as a lying beech who is throwing abuse allegations at him out of spite.

She has to pay all the legal fees, she has to pay for the boy's therapy, and she has to pay for the supervised visits with his father. A judge ruled that visits with his paternal grandparents don't need to be supervised, even though they are in complete denial of their son's perversion. 

Even if the courts and Child Protection and Law Enforcement all KNOW for a fact that the father is sexually abusing a child, even if they were the ones to find it, it is still incredibly difficult to protect the victim.

[~Solo]

SEFG:

Yes, I thought it was projection even though he says it's truth....

I have a question: You use stbx and sometimes nh.  What does that mean? 

[CZBZ]

"I'd lost any respect I had for him in the last 4-5 years of our marriage due to his "run in" with a Regulatory Commission (never trusted him, never believed his own proclaimed innocence, he luckily "got off" on a technicality) so it's likely he went searching for other, better Supply than me. " ~FreeGal


Another insight into the narcissist's confusing behavior is that once 'we' (his mirror) see him as 'flawed' or 'untrustworthy', their Mirror BREAKS. We no longer see them the way they need us to reflect their image. His run-in with the regulatory commission shattered his looking glass...you knew he was up to no good, a little shady perhaps or at least 'imperfect'. Everytime he looked in your eyes, his image was tarnished. That makes him less and less inclined to stick around.

Crisis can bring two people even closer together but in the N-relationship, They Run the other direction. The relationship is over.

I came to this conclusion after my partner's affair. Even though I was willing to work out any relational problems we might have and certainly willing and capable of 'forgiveness', I was a Broken Mirror. He didn't look in my eyes and see 'compassion', he only saw a broken image of himself. Is this making sense?

People think that a marriage falls apart after a crisis (like the legal issue you brought up, or an affair, or a financial loss of some kind) but to me, the marriage falls apart because the narcissist cannot tolerate being reminded of his failure, mistakes, indiscretions. He needs us to see him as 'the good guy--the perfect guy', not a normal everyday person.

And one more thing, OUR forgiveness is a great insult to their sense of superiority. When you tell a narc that you forgive them, it's like slapping them in the face. We, little lowlifes that we are, assume the narcissist NEEDS our forgiveness???!!! I never understood forgiveness as a 'power struggle' of sorts until witnessing my husband's reactions when I told him that no matter what he had done to our family, I was willing to forgive him.

If you are in a narcissistic relationship, your normal relational skills will backfire. They will not work the way they do with 'normal' people. This is so confusing and we lose confidence in our ability to create intimacy and love, a real hit to our self-esteem (especially women's self-esteem---relationships are so important to us). So we act in ways that normally, would facilitate INCREASED bonding, intimacy, and love. Instead of being humbled by their mistakes and our compassion, narcissists are INSULTED.

Narcissism is incredibly confusing...it boggles the mind as people often say.


Hugs,
CZ

[peartree]

hi CZ and everyone
i really "get" your v clear explanation of how an N operates in a relationship. they just dont act like anyone else does and any interation a complete mindwarp. so hard to figure things out. my interaction with an N (thankfully not a relationship but certainly an infatuation, so got huge respect and admiration for you guys healing from a relationship !!)was confusing as he seemed like such a good guy-caring and compassionate and understanding etc and i dont know to this day how much of that was trying to win me (win my N Supply rather than me) or how much of it was real. he would apologise for behaviour and sometimes take responsibility but because i always said it was ok or he had nothing to apologise for then i guess this wasnt "tested". so crazy. as with anyone else they'd be grateful or humbled, but not Ns, it kinda even ups their mad sense of entitlement !!
hugs
peartree x x

[CZBZ]

I'm so glad you joined WoN, peartree.  I wish everyone would examine their own behavior the way you do. That's "responsibility" and it restores your self-worth and self-esteem to be brutally honest with yourself.


Hugs,
CZ

[~Solo]

Peartree- You hit the nail right on the head.  Your N was undoubtedly doing the same thing with others.  He was trying to win you of course!  It was a challenge too that you were married (more narcissistic points for that!).  If he had won you and you decided to split-you would have been devastated beyond what you comprehend right now.  When he apologized and you told him he had nothing to apologize for, he was testing his ability to get away with his N acts and then see how powerful he still is depending how you responded.  You did up his sense of entitlement because you validated his behavior and his feelings about how he wants to see himself.  I hope I have that somewhat straight.  My N husband has us on a cycle of devaluation "everyday", then he apologizes every night after beers and a bunch of cigarettes, never to the point of giving love though. By morning (depending on how severe the issue that was created the day before) he will apologize again.  Then within a couple hours and in time to leave the house (assuming this is his sick way of justifying to himself just how much I deserve what he does to me when he leaves the house), he creates an argument and devaluation before his exit or mine if I leave before him.  I wake up with chest pains everyday and feel as though I'm going to have a heart attack!    I see then end in sight though and I have hope.

~Solo

[peartree]

you guys are truly inspirational. raising kids in the midst of healing from horrid Ns etc, breaking free from neg patterns etc.
i definitely had my own part to play in things, gave the N way too much attention and idolised him which he obviously loved. also i basked in the positive mirroring he was giving me as had v low self esteem at the time and lots of self-hate due to a v dear friendship going sour etc, taking-each-other-for-granted marriage, and a v tricky baby who cried alot at home (now a happy toddler thank goodness !). i enabled him alot too by not challenging him on his behaviour or doing that then backtracking or making boundaries then going back on them. didnt help myself one bit and indulged in a v crappy distraction from my lovely husband and family !! took me a year of that to "see the light" and break any contact with him.
one thing thats really helped is realising he probably never thought the things he said he did about me i.e love and thinking i was clever and wonderful etc. all just a way of getting N Supply. i.e it wasnt real so not horrible /a loss to lose that, as wasnt real in the first place !! thats helped me tons !! and realising i wasnt ditched emotionally as i'm a bad person or defective but because my mirroring was no longer perfect and full of adoration.
this might be missing the point but in some ways i feel sorry for the SOBs, as they are completely ruined with no hope of having meaningful relationships or connections. they should each carry a government warning sign !!!
hugs and love to all
peartree x x x

[peartree]

hi solo
that sounds horrific. a really callous form of abuse !!
its so good you can see it now though, awareness is always so empowering.
how do you cope with it when he does that ? are u able to shake it off because you are onto him or does it still hurt like crazy ??
hugs to you
peartree x x x

[~Solo]

Hi Peartree,

I don't know if I'm really doing so well.  I'm so tired all time, chest pain, 1/4-1/2 my hair has fallen out, I can't keep in shape (lost a bunch of weight), my nervous system is always in fight or flight mode.  I'm p r a y i n g  that I can repair all the bodily damage when I leave as I would hope not to be scarred too badly from this.  Some scarring will be there though.  I feel it, I know it.  Every day is a balancing act to try and keep my sense of reality.  Somedays, I really believe that he's just trying to work hard, be a good man, have his own goals, live up to my demanding expectations....Those are the days I feel tremendous guilt.  Sometimes, you feel like you cannot come back from the dark rabbit hole you have fallen so far down.  It's a desperate place to be at times and I have to be careful to not obsess on it and talk my friends away.  Seriously, no one can understand what you deal with, no one.  That's why I'm on here.  So, would I say dealing?  I just don't know??..... 

~Solo

[peartree]

hi
its so easy to doubt yourself and sadly thats the N's greatest power isnt it ? to make u wonder if your crazy or wrong or expect too much of them etc when really i would say with fully fledged Ns, its all about them !!
trust that you are a good and capable person and deserve to feel healthy and well and treated well. that was the start for me. realising i was worthy of more than the crap and the gaslighting. its good to be someone who gives others the benefit of the doubt and full of compassion and understanding but NOT SO with the N, it just enables their dysfunction and gives them permission to treat u like crap. they take advantage of it and see it as a weakness. have read them described as emotional vampires and i think thats really accurate.ambient/subtle or covert abuse is still abuse.
be good to yourself. say "me first" for a change and take it from there. treat yourself to hearty protein rich meals for your hair and your body and take it an hour at a time if taking things a day at a time too much. check out what YOU need hourly and do it.
hugs and well wishes
peartree x x x