Wow!

[FreeGal]

"Another insight into the narcissist's confusing behavior is that once 'we' (his mirror) see him as 'flawed' or 'untrustworthy', their Mirror BREAKS. We no longer see them the way they need us to reflect their image. His run-in with the regulatory commission shattered his looking glass...you knew he was up to no good, a little shady perhaps or at least 'imperfect'. Everytime he looked in your eyes, his image was tarnished. That makes him less and less inclined to stick around."CZ

Yes! Absolutely right and never realized this until now!  His mirror was shattered.  It continued to be shattered for years (with no respect from me) until I was ready to leave - and remember, I only stuck around to protect the kids, because I didn't trust him and because I couldn't share them with the N.

So, why, with his mirror shattered did he not leave?  Why did he stick around?  Why does he continue to make "peace offerings" through our youngest son (20 mangoes delivered to my home last night through our son)?  I"m quite sure my Supply offerings dwindled to nothing in the last 4-5 years of our marriage...why does an N stick around in that case?


 






[/quote]

[eyes_up]

Good Question FreeGal - Part of it has to be at the core of abandonment. I asked XN this. Put it to him asking since I do not do what you want me to do then why are you here? He went a solid blank. It was never answered. That is when I am supposed to just forget about it and do business as usual.

I say they stick around because they like being abusive and that you or myself stuck around taking the abuse so really it balances out. I suck so I pay the price for my negligence  and I am a great whipping girl. I mean ya just can't get any one to smack around emotionally. It takes a lot of effort to replace the washing machine that has allowed its owner to kick it.

Another thing is that the narcissist doesn't believe that the supply unit actually means it. The narcissist seems to think a few rose buds or a present will get you to hop on board the cycle again. Hadn't you before? When exactly did you draw the line? He has crossed so many and now a separating boundary? You must be off your rocker to think he would really pay attention to that.

His present dismisses your voice.

eyes

[FreeGal]

yes, whipping girl I was - I took it, and took it, and took it ...and was ground to the bottom, but thank god there was kernel of strength or whatever it was in my soul that started the long climb to "see ya later!"...and so, will he ALWAYS believe this, does he ever get the picture that I've "got his number!", when is it over, I cannot believe I'm saying this...but when will his next supply come along to relieve me?  How do I show him my voice rules over his present of mangoes?

[CZBZ]

"Why does he continue to make "peace offerings" through our youngest son" ~FreeGal

Because it makes HIM feel better about himself. And it looks so very considerate and kind to other people. Don't be confused. Those peace offerings have nothing to do with YOU. It's all about him. He sleeps better at night knowing he gave you MANGOES. Don't read anything into his gesture other than how he is serving himself.

Maybe he stuck around because the happy family looked good on his resume? I also believe that a stable partner helps the narcissist get through crisis. They feel more secure, their anxiety goes down. They know you'll remain stable while they aren't. Once he's back on his feet though, he won't want to stick around. And he won't be grateful either. he may even need to punish you somehow so he doesn't feel 'beholden' to you for your compassion. That's a narc-analysis. I don't really know what your husband is thinking.

We stick around, why? Well, we have kids and a home and extended connections. We have neighborhood friends and a lifestyle and all sorts of things we don't want to lose. I do not see myself as allowing abuse...no. Not really. I don't think most people agree to be abused and I truly hate, nay DETEST Dr. Phil's stupid cliche that people treat us the way we want them to treat us. It's secondary victimization in my perspective. It lacks an overall appreciation for The Situation. The Situation of abuse.

Are the kids better if we divorce when our kids are little and we are NOT there when their abusive parent has custody??? It's a tough question and my opinion is that most women BEAR the abuse and HOPE for changed behavior because Life is 'not all about themselves'. They see the bigger picture and tolerate the insults in order to be there for their kids.

Please don't see yourself as a doormat. Please.


Hugs,
CZ

[eyes_up]

does he ever get the picture that I've "got his number!"

Narcs will never admit to themselves that they have a number so this is part of that equation.

I know it took me some time to step out of the conditioned experience of what CZ refers to as a "door mat". That takes redeveloping and reuniting with your intrinsic nature and unquestionable value as life force and person. But at the same time I did go through the door mat experience even if there was that little voice deep inside knowing it was a lie. This is a form of cognitive dissonance. When I know there is being in there but still going through the ghostly motions of empty hell.

I can say I was once a victim but I do not have to continue the identification. It can be a historical experience but not a self or being which never can truly be denied only misplaced.

One more thing... after being broken up with narc for around 3 years he started coming around and putting gifts into my mail box and offering up so called opportunities over my message machine. Well, he never did realize why it was over and he never really will. Narcissist never see anything that that doesn't contribute to the illusion. While N may not be fooling you he is still completely involved with fooling himself. It is the nature of narcissism. There is no final closing statement with the facts. There will never be an kind of admitting to the ugly mess. I clean up my mess and the narc goes on to make more.

eyes

[FreeGal]

eyes - your clear statement and intelligent awareness is everything I sense and understand about my stbxNH and hearing it (or reading it) helps me so much with the healing process (or closure as I like to call it!) 

In my mind, I always go back to the reference of the N = 2 year old child - no inherent self-awareness, self serving, easy temper tantrums, no thought for others, immature - I've been thru 3 two year olds and I simply liken my stbxNH as exactly that - a "terrible two in an adult body!" 

So what I hear you saying is, the less mental energy I spend analysing, vindicating, wondering about the N (especially when he delivers gifts, compliments etc.) the easier I can move forward in life. Any action, reaction from the N is simply to be ignored. The N will never change, never can be trusted and is always to be doubted.  The least amount of contact, no response or action, and simple ignoring is the success formula to exiting the N? Yes?

[FreeGal]

 
Don't read anything into his gesture other than how he is serving himself. - Right! So ignore!?

Maybe he stuck around because the happy family looked good on his resume?  Exactly right!
 
Are the kids better if we divorce when our kids are little and we are NOT there when their abusive parent has custody? We protect our kids until we feel our kids can protect themselves?

Please don't see yourself as a doormat. Please. I really don't think I do!!

But I still need to understand - Do I continue to offer supply in words (adoration, attention etc.) when co-parenting decisions need to be made and he will still fall for it?  And for all other times do I simply ignore him?  Let's not forget this N is in my life for the rest of it because we share kids (until of course we are all de-valued and his next supply comes along)

FreeGal (on a mission to get this down)



 



[/quote]

[SydneyFireworks]

Hi Freegal - and a belated welcome to WoN!

You asked:  But I still need to understand - Do I continue to offer supply in words (adoration, attention etc.) when co-parenting decisions need to be made and he will still fall for it?  And for all other times do I simply ignore him?

I never had children with the N I was involved with, so I can't be much help in that department.  However, I learned that Tosser (my nick for N) could be 'manipulated' via reverse psychology.  Eg, he would ask me if I wanted to eat Thai or Chinese for dinner.  I would tell him Chinese because I don't really like Thai.  He'd then say "No, we'll have Thai."  I learned quickly that if I wanted Chinese I had to tell him I wanted Thai.   

Might this tactic work in your case?  Like, if you really want the kids to go to ABC school, could you act like you want them to go to XYZ school?  Or if he's trying to get an extra weekend visit when it doesn't suit you, could you tell him his request for the extra visit is perfect... because you have a hot date?!

It can be a risky tactic of course, but you could maybe try it out in a few less important co-parenting issues, to see if it works!

Hugs
Syd

[FreeGal]

 Hi Syd,  I"ve been reading your stuff and should have said "hi" myself!  Thank you for your welcome!!

I loved your 'manipulated' via reverse psychology. and have used it for years...it definitely works. 

I'm also working on this adoration stuff because I've read on many sites that the N continue to fall for it.  I just wish to know if any of you "sistas" have experienced it.  Mostly because I've been exhausted by the reverse psychology and find it easier to be adoring and attentive (with a smirk) than have to conjure up the reverse psychology which doesn't come as easily to me!?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions...just let me know if it's too many!

[eyes_up]

FreeGal, Your spirit and your tenacity is amazing.

I spent some time out witting a narc. I don't think it is a particularly easy job but considering you have children involved here you probably will have to work it. One thing that helped me out was taking the zing , all of the juice out of any subject. Which is to say being non reactionary as in poker face. But not exclusively. Basically one has to create an illusion , a representational self that doesn't bear any of the true emotions. Those are private . BUT emotions can be involved as an act... just like the narc. So really the best way to fool a narc is do what the narc does ... of course knowing the difference  .

It is best not to allow the narc to know where the hot points are and that may take some time if he is already used to you being a certain way on certain subjects.



What is nice about this board is you can hide your feelings from the narc and then come and scream them out here. Every one will understand.

I figured out how to put up dummy subjects like decoys so those were the ones targeted and the real stuff remained out of sight. That was near the end. I really have no idea what I would do if I had another 7 or so years to work with custody nor was I married to a narcissist.

But i do know that what ever is juicy to you... do not allow this importance to be known. Narcissist are not real good about knowing if a person is lying. They really are not. They can not read fine facial gestures. I learned to bite my tongue when I felt I absolutely needed to respond and really it kept my business with me and for that I started stocking up on the empowerment knowing that my feelings were personal ... even my anger... all mine and not to be exposed or shared with a narcissist.

Another item I found to help lessen my use of energy ... if face to face do not make eye contact. Keep preoccupied and speak while looking at the trees. Although this might create anger in some instances. Be busy ... that is a way to buffer ... it creates space. such as being preoccupied with a garment and all of your attention is not on the narcissist. narcs do not enjoy being the center of attention and if you can work it... your attention will become more important if you feel your attention is important and that is why get real interested in other concerns... be passionate about your attention else where so when it is necessary to get real chummy turn on your wonderful attention. This might sound weird but I actually did this.

but the bottom line is they do not know the difference from what you do that is real and truthful and not. That is what I have come to understand.



eyes

[CZBZ]

"Please don't see yourself as a doormat. Please."

"I really don't think I do!!" ~FreeGal

Whew...I am very very sensitive to people blaming themselves for having stayed with an abusive partner. Abuse is so illusive...it ranges from direct threats to a woman's life to subtle insults corroding her confidence and sense of reality. Everyone blames themselves in the beginning, even criticizing themselves as brutally as the narcissist has done. Self-blame is a way to 'restore power' to ourselves meaning that if it's our fault, we can do something to fix it. If the fault lies elsewhere, there's nothing we can do to fix it which triggers terrifying feelings of powerlessness. So back we go to blaming ourselves again. Such a painful cycle and I did it, too.

I read The Doormat Syndrome and while there were things that I did that appeared to be masochism, the description lacked a broader recognition of The Situation. What is missing in criticisms about women-who-stay is the courage it takes To Stay. If we have consciously made a decision to Stick it out until we're able to free ourselves (and our kids) from an irreconcilable and dangerous relationship, then that is not being a doormat or a masochist. It's taking responsibility and making a choice which is far more empowering than blaming ourselves.

Perhaps I'm a tad sensitive to this because of the general assumption in society that women who stay in unhealthy relationships are co-participants in the abuse. Or that women-who-stay like being abused. Or that women-who-stay are weak-willed. We must examine the whole of The Situation to understand the complexity. It's just not as simple as people would like it to be...in the case of the abusive/narcissistic relationship, it's so difficult to sort out that people resort to simple answers. And there aren't any. Because society tends to blame the victim, we experience a re-victimization, a secondary trauma which can erode perceptions of ourselves as pitiable masochists who taught the abuser how to treat them by not standing up.

Let's get real here. Standing Up often increases the abuse. Ultimatums may increase the abuse. If a woman is unable to provide for herself or is concerned about her abusive partner having custody of the children, making the decision to stay UNTIL she can safely leave, is reasonable, responsible and SANE.

In a situation that does not involve financial ties, children, extended family ties, etc. etc. etc., walking away is an Individual Choice. When you have kids though and their welfare is your responsibility, walking away might even increase the abuse. I believe women are making the decision to stay and not because they are crazy or defective or even masochistic but because they know intuitively, that their partner will retaliate in ways that increase the possibility of harm for themselves AND their children.

So no blame to anyone who chose to stay and no Doormat Syndrome either. When you're dealing with a narcissist, YOU KNOW in your gut that they're dangerous. Making a rash decision to leave without preparation, without education, without support is not Standing Up for yourself. It takes an enormous amount of self-discipline and courage to prepare yourself for leaving SUCCESSFULLY.

We may 'feel' like doormats but it's just a feeling. It's not truth.


Hugs,
CZ

[FreeGal]

I believe women are making the decision to stay and not because they are crazy or defective or even masochistic but because they know intuitively, that their partner will retaliate in ways that increase the possibility of harm for themselves AND their children.CZ

All I can say to this, is that in my case, intuition did not let me leave my N until I felt my kids could defend themselves and didn't require me to intercept the monster's rages etc.

The phrase I am hearing is " men leave for another woman, women leave for themselves"  This says a lot about women "coming to terms" with leaving the N.  Women stay because they are natural nuturers, protectors, teachers, relationship builders (not destroyers). When they've finally had enough of the N and have found some strength, they leave for themselves.

[tango3]

I believe women are making the decision to stay and not because they are crazy or defective or even masochistic but because they know intuitively, that their partner will retaliate in ways that increase the possibility of harm for themselves AND their children.

This is such a tough one for me.  Many years ago, when my children were toddlers, I seriously contemplated leaving, I had the Yellow Pages open for an attorney!  We were broke, so there was no money for an attorney plus I'm from a different country.  I knew that getting our two children out of the country would be close to impossible and I would NOT leave them behind.  Another factor was, what the hell would I do?  Return home with three children, two of them under five, a single mother with no support.  Yes my parents would have taken us all in but how in the hell would I support us all? 

In retrospect, I should have taken my chances and left.  The cost for the two younger (his children) was way too high!  Whilst I thought I was doing the right thing with regards to "material" things, they wouldn't have had ATV's, a horse, TV's or a comfortable life - well what you don't know you don't miss.  At least my children would have been with my "normal" family and would have known what "normal" people were instead of N's incredibly dysfunctional one.  I'm positive that N's father is an N himself - I just knew him as a mean, selfish, bullying, drunk - and that's what his soN became too.

[FreeGal]

Oh Tango, I hear your sadness - I think we only regret what has happened and can't truly regret what didn't.

You gave your kids a good life - whatever the choice - you need to forgive yourself for the shoulda, woulda, coulda's - there are so many things any of us shoulda, woulda, coulda.  The challenge is find the good in the choices we made and not burden ourselves with the shoulda, woulda, coulda's!

The best thing about you staying is ... they still got the "normal" you!  You're half+ of the equation - they cannot escape that and lucky for them.

FreeGal

[BlueSky]

CZ - thanks for what you wrote!!  It makes a lot of sense. 

I know in my case that through experience with the exN, I understood what things would really anger or upset exN and I tried to avoid them the last few years of the marriage.  I manipulated him and the situation so that I felt safer as I prepared to leave.  It didn't feel all that good to let him blame me for so much stuff....however, I am sure that it helped calm exN and things down.  It didn't feel good to manipulate him either, but I was quite scared of exN and what he might do. 

I have sometimes thought about 'woulda', 'coulda', 'shoulda' over the six+ years since I've been divorced...and felt bad for not confronting exN and not backing down on it, for letting him blame me in front of friends & family for the divorce, and for not leaving sooner, but reading what you wrote today has cemented in my brain that I did the best I could at the time and since I was listening to my instincts, I think it was for the best.  If I'd really confronted exN and not backed down, things would have been much worse.  I am sure of it.  If I had told everyone at the time what he had been doing, things would have been much worse.  As it was, I only confided in a few select people and they were supportive and helped me get through things in those early days.

I am also reminded again of how good it is that exN has not chosen to see our son in over two years.  We are so much better off not to have him around.  He still causes problems from time to time, but I think it would be much worse if he was actively a part of my son's life.

I have been thinking also of how I felt (and sometimes still feel) guilty for standing up to exN, telling the truth about the marriage and what he did in situations where I felt it was important to do so, and going so far as actually baiting him and trying to upset him on a handful of occasions post-divorce.  I had a feeling that he might leave us if I riled him up enough....and that's what happened.  Once he figured out he couldn't control and manipulate me, that I wouldn't do what he expected anymore, he took off.  I didn't do it all the time, but it did earn me the title of 'psycho-ex-wife'.  That's not much fun - nor has some of the vindictive things he's done.... but I do like having him basically out of the picture except for rare occasions when he finds an opportunity to control me - like by refusing to keep me informed of my son's insurance.  Sigh.  However, one day my son will be grown up and I won't have to deal with exN anymore!      Still dealing with feeling guilty for having run exN off.....  anyone else experience anything similar??