Do or die?

[~Solo]

In turmoil today as I told my N husband I was going to sign a lease today and move out on Sunday.  I had been waiting to give the info as I knew there would be head games involved.  Last night, I decided to tell him after he told me he would be home and I bought food and made a nice meal.  He sent me a text message at 8:00 explaining that he was having a beer and relaxing.  He had finished work at 6:00.  Would have been nice to get his decline earlier (like before I bought the food!).  He said he needed to relax because when he left yesterday morning I was telling him how tired I am of the coldness and I was tired of waking up from my heart racing instead of the sun shining into my room.  Yesterday was just "another" of the same in our home.  He wakes up, declares how much he has to do (his way of saying don't get close), then when I acted kind of disappointed, he then decided to "show" me how much he had to do by staying and working on his computer.  So, at 11:00 a call comes in from a friend who started his own bank asking him to lunch at 12:00.  He closes everything up and says, "so and so called and they always have something interesting going on so I am meeting him for lunch-he invited me".  I was of course put off because he apparently has so much to do and has to make distance with me.  So, I cried and told him I couldn't handle the coldness or anxiety and loneliness any longer.  He left and I called him during the day to talk, but he only became angry and it didn't go well.  So back to the dinner....  He shows up 9:45 and grabs more wine and cigarettes and I went outside shortly after and told him "I'm leaving, movers are set to come, my mom will be here".  He sat with his head down...and I went to bed.  Woke up again to my heart racing at 4:30.  He came into my room at 7:30ish to talk, asking me, "Was I still wanting to shoot him and was I still upset?"  I said, "no, I'm fine".  He then decided to go back up and get more coffee and use the restroom.  That's all he wanted to hear.  He must have thought I was not leaving now? 
So, before leaving for work, he said his usual when we are in this twilight zone, "I don't know what to say".  I said, "don't say anything, I'm going to sign and that's it".  He began to ask "Is this it, our marriage is just over?"  Then he went on about how the book on Narcissism pretty much spells this out and his relationships end up this way.  He said it's all to familiar.  Then he describes how he will make me feel bad for him and then I will be hurting for him (which I actually was).  Then he slowly transformed the conversation into blaming me.  He kept saying all you had to do was back off of me and not be so controlling and just let me work.  It was clear he didn't want me leaving him .  But what he couldn't do was tell me he loved me or that he wanted me to stay.  He just poses that in questions.... Like, "Why can't you just chill out and calm down and not control?".
So, my dilemma....I called him in an hour of him leaving and we began to talk about the dog he took to the vet and then I went into my leaving to sign lease.  He asked if I could put off signing it till tomorrow.  It's always wait another day.  I asked him to just tell me his feelings.  Tell me you love me and you're sorry and we can work it out.  He began the taking of control because I was asking him to say it.  He knew I wanted it.  He began asking how this is going to be any different this time and how are we going to start giving each other what we need.  He had nothing but negatives.  It went from, "can't you just chill out and do what I've asked?" to "How is anything going to change and get better and maybe we need to since nothing else works?"  The shift happens quickly...

Anyway, this is poorly written and I have to run for an appointment then into the lease signing.  I'm sick and feel once again like I did this and could have avoided it....  I have not made love to my husband in a month (not because of me) becasue he doesn't feel close yet he at first was trying to get me to stay?  I'm so confused STILL...   

~Solo    

[honeybearII]

Solo, this is the hardest part and I speak from experience.  I gave my exNH about 3 months' notice that I was leaving.  Nothing really changed.  Whenever I brought it up, I got the same kind of doublespeak that you are hearing from your husband.  "Is it over?"  "is this it?"  "Can't you put it off?"  it drove me crazy because it kept me wondering What If for months and months.  The confusion is their way of NOT DEALING WITH REALITY.  He is NOT really telling you not to leave.  He is NOT offering to do whatever it takes on HIS part to work on the marriage.  He is NOT taking any responsiblity.  And he won't.

What he IS doing is keeping you on the gerbil wheel for his own purposes whatever they might be.  Ns have a really, really hard time of letting go of supply - even supply they don't really want any longer - like US.  I can pretty much guarantee that once you are away from this aura and this atmosphere of confusion you will begin to put it all in perspective.  It will take some time, and you will still not be over the hump totally, but taking the step to walk is HUGE.

Hang in there.  The sun will be shining soon.
Honey

[talia]

Dear Solo,

I can sense your heartache in your post.((HUGS))..I have to echo what Honeybear wrote. My experience with the NPd'r slowly eroded my sense of what "normal" was. I never knew exactly where I stood with the N. Had I been paying strict attention to actions/behavior vs. the word salad it would have been obvious. I'd never get the straight answer I was seeking, but in the mumbo jumbo of his word salad speak, I would always hang on to the perceived golden carrot...well, he didn't say this(good-bye/it's over)...or he'd say he didn't want to lose me...

So, this is normal(I think!!!) If/when a wife has informed her husband she has signed a lease and is prepared to move out, a normal loving husband who is concerned about his marriage and loves his wife and does not want her to leave will communicate that and there would not be any guesswork involved. Normal healthy relationships are not supposed to be that confusing. People are capable of telling each other they love each other. It sounds to me with all the references to being controlled, he is projecting his covert control issues on to you....A loving healthy normal mature husband doesn't cause his wife to feel cold, anxious, lonely. And if by chance he had done that unintentionally he would change whatever behavior had caused that...because that's what people who love each other do.

You sound like you're in a fog...because that's what NPdr's are experts at. I'd say forget the words and pay attention to the behavior??...

((hugs))

[CZBZ]

Dear Solo,

Sounds like he has resigned himself to your leaving. He avoided that conversation as best he could, didn't he? Even when your relationship is failing though, he still blames you for being 'too controlling'. I guess a good N never gives up his defenses or his beer, eh?

Do you feel safe around him now? As I recall, he had quite a temper. Make sure you are NEVER alone with him.  The movers will be there and your mother, too. I hope you also have nearby neighbors. Narcissists don't like 'acting out' in public if they can help it...keep yourself surrounded with people.

This can be a dangerous time for anyone leaving a N-relatioNship. He sounds like he's already accustomed to the idea, though.

I might also suggest keeping a cell phone handy...carry it everywhere you go and put 911 on speed dial. I'm not trying to frighten you, it's just better to be prepared instead of being taken by surprise. If there are any guns in the house, put them somewhere he doesn't know. You can return them later. Take Precautions. Be Prepared.

Let us know how everything is going and if you get scared AT ALL, call the police. 


Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

Good luck Solo and know that we are all there in spirit helping you MOVE out of HELL and into the light.  I really think that you can not know the horror that you were living in until you are away from it.

[FreeGal]

Solo - you are brave!  You will look back at this thread a year from now and be in such a different place.  

The "small" stuff won't matter any more - it seems so BIG now, it will be small in time...time...time...!  

Give yourself the luxury of time, indulge yourself, cry, laugh, cry again, indulge, take  a bath, one thing, one day, one moment at a time.

Stay the course, trust that kernel of strength within you that is telling you to GO!  NO CONTACT - let this become your mantra - at least for a day, then two, then a week, then two weeks - NO CONTACT - eat jelly beans, watch Oprah, cry, laugh, cry again, indulge, take a bath - Stay the course!

It's your time, you've decided, control your thoughts - don't let yourself succumb!  You've decided for You! Stay the course!

Congratulations on your BIG decision - we're ALL routin' for you!!!
  FreeGal

[~Solo]

Free Gal:  Thank you for the cheer!  I know I will have to take it one day at a time.... No contact will be so important and I know I need to get everything out as not to return.  I couldn't bear seeing someone else (another woman?) being in our home.  I know....in time I will not care.

SusyP14: I think I have a slight idea of the hell I'm in, but I'm with ya!  Keep heading toward the light!

SEFG: No, the constant arguing, and begging for attention and affection is not pleasant.  And the wondering if he'll be here for me sucks pretty much too.  I don't know if there is another woman, but my suspicion is such as everything else matches up unless he's just into porn.  Either way, I'm lonely and he's manipulative.  I'm sorry you had to go through what you did.  It hurts to be told that we are controlling, nagging, hard, etc.  It hurts to be lied to and cheated.....

CZ: Thanks for the safety tips.  Luckily, N is not into guns at all.... (or maybe he would have used it by now as he has threatened me - just recently and has twice put his hands up to my throat and said, "sometimes".... - also threats of course).  Yep, I'm controlling...AND non trusting!

Talia:  Yes, you're right "normal" couples should be able to profess their love AND even when they are mad at each other.  It didn't matter what N did or does, I can still say I love him (although now I wonder if something is wrong with me?).  He does not have the same ability.  He seems to hold a deep grudge against me for not "seeing him" as he wants to be seen.  I'm glad that you brought up being able to change how he was treating me if it were unintentional.  Everything rides on how much I cater to his projections... If I'm falling in line and being a "good audience" then I'm treated nicely, but if I disagree with him or "need" him, forget about it! ...He gets anxious and disappears.

Honeybear:  You are so right in that he is keeping me on the gerbil wheel.  That's how I feel.  He is NEVER clear in his intentions.  My life is now partly in this house, partly in storage, rented po box, etc.  I'm kind of all over the board.  He could care less.  He gives me the vague answers your N gave you.  I can totally relate to your justifying not leaving.  EX: "He didn't say that he wanted me to leave or that it's over".  Although, he has come right out and said it to me and 5 or 6 months ago he began saying he was unhappy, this is his life, and he wants a divorce.  Well, finally I got sick of being rejected and abused.  I said, "fine" and then the games really began.  When I first said I was signing a lease he became very anxious, said don't do it he wanted to talk, etc.  That's when he told me about narc and Histrionic personality d's.  It's been really crazy ever since although it was pretty "dark" before that point too.  The part about not taking responsibility KILLS me.  He is making this out to be "MY" decision when he won't tell me to stay or that he loves me-just that I should have backed off and not controlled him.  You nailed it there.  He will not take ANY responsibility.  He does openly admit to some of his N stuff, but he says I have mine (obsessing).  I think that's his way of making his stuff appear smaller when there is a HUGE discrepancy between the size of our individual "stuff".  Besides, I read somewhere that a normal mind will "ruminate" over the N relationship as it will not ever make sense!

As I suspected, we spoke again today and he is cold, distant, etc.  He has the power again or so he thinks.  This morning he was a little child when I said I was going, then when I softened, felt bad for him, showed love, BAM! he slammed me again...... abandonment at it's finest. 

Thank you everyone.  I am like a helpless person right now inside.  This forum is so helpful.  I'm blessed to have found it.  When I feel like I'm losing my mind, I get on here and realize that I will "get it back". 

~Solo     



 

[practicaljude]

Thank you everyone.  I am like a helpless person right now inside.  This forum is so helpful.  I'm blessed to have found it.  When I feel like I'm losing my mind, I get on here and realize that I will "get it back".

Dear solo,

You’re walking the walk…literally and figuratively.  Boy, I know that feeling of helpless inside, while the outside keeps on keepin' on.  But, I also know how I minimized how much strength I really had and how much love for myself I possessed so I could take that totally drastic move – to leave him.  As I read your post, you ooze of strength. Not all women are able to let their heart lay quietly in their chest and bleed as they pick up what’s left to protects their souls.

About him?  Well, if you would have asked me to write a script as to how the last couple of days look before you left, the story would have been just about how you told it.  N’s responses and behaviors are pretty predictable, sad to say.  The N I was with was a little meaner, but in the end said the same things with a couple of exceptions. First he told me I wasn’t really leaving, but as the moving van approached he told my sister he has asked me to leave a lot sooner because he knew the relationship was over a long time ago…Huh?  What he knew was he cannot have a monogamous relationship, and he admitted to “always screwing things up”, so in essence, he knew he had a lot to do with it but blamed me anyway for “staying too long.”  (Long enough to catch him is what he meant). Long enough for the mask to drop?

Back to YOU.  Solo, I can’t tell you how much positive energy you have shared here and how you will feel better in time, but with your determination to live a more peaceful and happy life I know it will happen for you.  And, by you “saving” yourself, you set a president for each and every women out there struggling with all different kinds of abuse…you are a leader.  To be honest, whether you actually physically left him or not the positive energy is still flowing because of all the things that make you, YOU!  This tells me no matter what living conditions you’re in, you’ll find the way to live a happier, more fulfilled life.  

You don’t need to agree with this but my after my own experience and the experience of helping on WoN, hearing lots of women tell their stories, I believe what helps motivate us and helps keep us safe is our “soul-talk.”  Once I left N and was able to think outside the fog, I read “Women Who Run With the Wolves” and everything came together for me…although the author talked about “soul-talk” I felt the book, itself, was a form of it and it spiritually found it’s way when I needed it most.  It's only my belief but I believe your soul is talking to you and you're listening.

Please keep posting when you feel like it – or read, but please let us know how you’re doing.  I also believe we are all here for a reason, and it may be as simple as connectedness – whatever it is, it’s real and real is peaceful and relieving after living a surreal life with N.  

I’ll be thinking about you…please know I think you’re one of the strongest women I know, and also know I can relate to the pain.  For most, emotionally detaching takes quite some time and it’s a good thing the pain dissipates (with some more work on our part) and we are free to live in peace - the life we deserve.

 
Jude  

[~Solo]

Oh Jude...thank you for such KIND words of encouragement.  That was beautiful, what you wrote.  I really took it in...
Sometimes, I feel as though I have lost a sense of reality myself in that N "believes" I'm half the problem.  Now, I don't mean to sound free of shortcomings , but in my heart I feel he created feelings of inadequacy and insecurity in me.  Now, I will openly admit that I did have insecurities and I am more of a shy person and take longer to be known, but those could have easily been calmed by his gentle reassurances.  He said so many times that he felt smothered.  I have read and heard for years that no one can make us feel a certain way, we are in control of how we feel.  I ponder on that one?  My N was so charming and fun, life of everyones party and some peoples lives.  He did really try to be a good person with everyone around him and in his life.  I guess the fallout in my eyes was that he didn't put the focus where it counted the most - with his new wife.  It's hard to blame a "seemingly" great guy with great qualities, right?  The only thing I have going for myself is that I'm clear on the name calling, the few times he grabbed my arms, pushed me off the bed, threw things at me, put his hands up to my neck twice, and then recently threatening to kill my uncle (because I told him I was going to let my uncle know of him "handling" me after he had pushed me out of a room by pushing the door against my body-spilling hot coffee all over my chest) and then kill me if he was just going to go to jail.  It's odd and the picture doesn't make sense even to me.  Then of course there is the inability to be intimate and the blaming of me for not truting him that causes it.  I have seen his charming, great guy side and it's soooo impressive and convincing that when I see this other stuff, I have a tendency to think it's my fault (if only I didn't evoke that in him?) or that I am the bad one.   

I guess you're right.  Sounds like the N patterns are pretty predictable.  With your N telling your sister that it was over a long time ago and he was surprised you had not left sooner.  It really seems that they cannot feel like they were in anyway vulnerable and that they will not be vulnerable ever. 

Funny, N says that I never "committed" to this relationship and let my guard down to trust him.  It's mind boggling that when I questioned him on things, his ability to reassure me started out strained in the beginning but then turned into a complete rebellion against me.  I know he was innocent on some things and I was a bit hard on being timely as I'm that way, but it (being late) would happen "all the time" with him.  He was late for just about everything.  Then the drama always, "How does this happen?"...with his distraught look.  Anyway, running on, so I'll stop.

Thanks again for the lovely, encouraging post,

~Solo   
 

[~Solo]

I watched Dr. Phil yesterday.  One segment was on a guy who couldn't make up his mind.  Seemed to me that he was happily married, he didn't seem the list bit abusive, but he had trouble deciding, simple things, where to go to eat, on vacation, etc.  Dr. Phil said to him, "do you realize that by not deciding you are making a decision?"  You, "are deciding to not decide."  This is what it feels like with N's.  Then they remain VICTIM.    
~That is exactly what is happening.  He can make decisions about anything else, just not what to do about us.  He remains neutral.... not "committing".

I have these visions of N continuing to rip me to shreds verbally to those he knows, anyone that will listen, about how I was this horrible wife, that was abusive, didn't love him right, wouldn't listen, was a nag, jealous, always arguing; which of course is absurd.
I loved him very much, I catered to him, I took care of things around the house, paid the bills, had a life outside of the home, stayed connected to family, showered him with love, told him regularly how much I appreciated him & our marriage.  Yep I was a real BITC#.
One reason I know that he does this is because it is the same lines I got about his previous Wives.. & another, it is because it was the things he said I did when we were together which of course were not so..
The difference now is that he cannot say them to me & the people I am around now do not have to listen to this.
~Sorry he did those things to you.  It's horrible to know that your name is being drug through the dirt, especially when you know that you may have "reacted" to his treatment of you if you did become less than "lady like" at any time.  But it especially stinks when you were sooo giving and loved with every fiber.  My N said how "unstable" his last couple girlfriends were.  I even heard it from other people.  I began sticking up for them years ago saying, "it takes two".  I knew what had happened....  Of course my N husband sent his girlfriends into counseling too like he did me a long time ago!   

If it were me & N was not saying, "Oh my love, I love you more than ever, do not leave me," because he knew how much I cared for & about him..........  then I would say, unless you are able to share this with me & I am that fleeting to you.. then I am outta here.  given em what he wants.  his freedom.
it has to be up to you.. I would talk to God a lot & then listen for the answers. 
SOLO, you love this man with all of yourself & he is giving you dog biscuits.
it is ABSURD. (been there) like the others say, you are strong, we are here for you...
Trust me, it was not as if I wasn't happy & commited, I was.  but he wasn't.  He left, but I can tell you it would NEVER EVER work cause he doesn't & would not appreciate what we had.  so be it.  I'm sure he is still saying all of his current problems are my fault.
WHAT EVER.
~Yes, you're right, there really is NO ARGUMENT or CONSIDERATION since he is UNWILLING to tell me he wants me to be here.  I know things are tough, but he makes it seem as though he is so confused and he asks, "why would we want more of what we have already gotten?".  While he sounds so diplomatic and levelheaded at that moment, I must remember the coldness, distance, lack of love, and abuse when I feel as though he is the one "making such good sense of it all". 

Thanks SEFG! ~Solo   

[CZBZ]

Ha, SEFG! Narcissists are able to admit to being narcissists. It makes them special. ha!

I have talked with (and known) many people with narcissistic personalities. They 'know' they are self-centered and they 'know' they have problems attaching to other people. Narcissists can actually be quite self-aware that something is obviously different about themselves. The thing is: they might like being different from the rest of the sheep.

The Narcissistic Personality Disorder is so difficult to treat because each time the therapist approaches their original narcissistic injury (we all have to get to the 'root' of our problems, right?), the narcissist's fear kicks up the defenses. so I tend to believe there are a lot of narcissists who know they are narcissists but they do not know how to change (nor do they really want to change. Why give up defenses for something you aren't sure will be worth it?)




Hugs,
CZ

[FreeGal]

The Narcissistic Personality Disorder is so difficult to treat because each time the therapist approaches their original narcissistic injury .......the narcissist's fear kicks up the defenses. so I tend to believe there are a lot of narcissists who know they are narcissists but they do not know how to changeCZ

My experience with this issue of the N's fear factor was with the 4th marriage counsellor.  She was good, she was seeing something I wasn't (didn't know about NPD at the time) and both N and I felt this.  He finally stormed out in a rage (obviously never going to come back) and she said "FreeGal, your husband has so much fear, he is way to scared to ever go to whatever is haunting him, he never will ... and YOU will never have the kind of marriage YOU want with this man"  She saw through his defenses and without as much as mentioning NPD, she nailed it!!

I think the conscious N wants to change, but is far too afraid to do so. In fact so fearful that he can barely think of what he would have to do.  I think the N knowing how to change to "normal" would be like us knowing how to become a N.  We don't, we can't, it's a different wiring. It's impossible.

I do believe that there are many N's who know they're different, quite like it for the most part,  but only when narcissistic injury occurs do they wish they could be different, in the end they are far too weak, scared, child-like to address their real fears. They really are a sorry lot!!!

FreeGal

[Julia]

My NH admitted he was an N. He had been diagnosed a couple times after all, and had been in residential programs where they talked about it for 6-8 hours a day.  Also they told him that Ns are usually very successful, lots of Drs, politicians, CEOs, professors, etc and he actually felt a bit impressed by the diagnosis. He also never UNDERSTOOD the diagnosis. He only heard the parts he wanted to hear.... and the parts about lack of empathy never clicked because he doesn't really understand what empathy IS.

In other posts, it sounds like solo's N has been diagnosed at some point in the past, and now uses that to avoid blame for the breakup of his marriages.

 My NH is depressive and needs people to cater to him, and excuse his actions.   The depression is just one way to get that. For him the N diagnosis just became another source of supply. As in, I need all this care because I'm an N. You should all excuse what I do because I am depressive or I am an N. But he only admits to the Nism with people who ALREADY know (therapists, me). He has never told his friends or GF about the N diagnosis. He gets plenty of supply and gets excused for his horrible behavior just using the depression diagnosis with them.

NH's recent course of Electro-Convulsive Therapy made him forget the past two-three years, and so he no longer remembers the diagnosis, it is bizarre. I haven't told him.


Julia

 

[FreeGal]

Julia - Hi...from me, FreeGal (newbie!) 

Your post is fascinating to me - I take it you are still married when you say NH - do you live with him?, he has a GF? do you still love him? 

Your a thriver (400+ posts) - will you stay this way? Why did he agree to go to Electric Convulsive Therapy...?

If this is all too personal no problem, but you"ve go my interest peaking!!!
  FreeGal

[Julia]

Freegal,

Divorcing a guy like this can take a while. I have not lived with him for coming up on four years. The first year I was in total denial thinking we would get back together after he was out of the hospital, after he got back to work, after we saw a marriage therapist......meanwhile he had other ideas... to put it mildly, but kept mum.

As for love, no. Read my response to the post "The Narcissist at Midlife" and you will get more of my story as to why love is long gone. I did love him,  I was a devoted wife, and doormat, for 16 years.

We have been pretty close to a settlement but his breakdowns stalled us. Now we have another trial day for May and I am really hoping that we can get it done.

Julia

[CZBZ]

"some days I feel pissed & guess I am a little of that today"

Of course you are pizzed, SEFG. You should be.  

I've heard a lot of people say that Narcissists are oblivious to their narcissism. Even Nina Brown says this in her excellent books. Maybe we can say that some narcissists are oblivious and some aren't? That some narcissists might realize they have problems but can't fix 'em and other narcissists realize they are unique and like themselves that way.

I've even read articles written by sociopaths who view their lack of emotions as an evolutionary improvement.   Even though most people would view a life without emotion as a 'disability', these folks see themselves as superior. They aren't bogged down with emotions messing with their logic, you see. They don't have to worry about 'attachment' to anyone.

Maybe pathological narcissists are more conscious of their difference? Like Sam Vaknin, for example.

Interesting discussion!



Hugs,
CZ

[~Solo]

Ya know.. I gotta say that I would suspect most people see others in a balanced perspective for the most part, their good & bad side, we all have strengths & weaknesses.  But the N's are not able/unwilling to look at life in a balanced way, in a close relationship it's either ALL GOOD or ALL BAD.  That is crazy making.  

WOW...this may be one of the single most important things I have read!  It's completely clarifying...  This is exactly what I experienced with my N husband.  He saw me and our relationship as all bad.  I would try to explain that people are good and bad so many times.  This is so profound yet such a simple concept.

Thanks SEFG!  As I read more and more I am so humbled by what others have gone through.  The upheavals you speak of....the need for assistance.  It's mind boggling that one can ever escape these guys after we go through so much, were exhausted, confused, devalued, almost a void.  You are a survivor 
I hope to be a survivor soon....

~Solo 

[peartree]

" It's hard to blame a "seemingly" great guy with great qualities, right?"

hi solo,
hugs to you hun, what a courageous lady you are. you might not feel it just now but its there. was struck by your words above and how much they match my own confusion about Ns that pretend to be ace guys, but as the other girls say its the behaviour we need to focus on. the words are nothing but smoke and mirrors to confuse and gaslight ! they are master mind-benders but i think you are onto him. confusion may feel horrid but i think its your friend, that ambivalence and doubt about him is keeping you safe and once you are free of him, will clarify into awareness of how you did so well to get away, taking that healthy step to look out for you and do whats right for you.
thats so so powerful !!
luck and love to u
peartree x

[eyes_up]

" It's hard to blame a "seemingly" great guy with great qualities, right?"

Solo, It is difficult proving a narcissist is a narcissist when the illusion of the great guy is ON.

One way I looked at it in order to stick with my perceptions is to write down the abusive behaviors and realize that while a narcissist  exhibits great guy behaviors they most definitely act abusively. It is like a secret which is how most abusive people work. I say most because I actually believe that for the abusive person they must create a cover of great where as the more ordinary good guy doesn't have to since he / she is not abusive. No need to be over impressive.

with in nearly all relationships that come to an end there will be a grieving of the things that we liked about the relationship/ person no matter how how much of the yuck stuff we didn't like or in this case ... the unhealthy abusive stuff.

These sorts of divorces are not because former partners grew out of one another precisely but because one person is abusive.

We all use the word narcissist on this board but the real objection is the abusive behavior which is destructive behavior and who else better than a person who is abusive and destructive to hide behind the "great guy" so they can continue their unhealthy occupation.

People with unacceptable behaviors hide the facts!

Take CARE Of YOU,

eyes

[~Solo]

Once again great advice from the beautiful ladies on this board  

PEARTREE:
Confusion may feel horrid but i think its your friend, that ambivalence and doubt about him is keeping you safe and once you are free of him, will clarify into awareness of how you did so well to get away, taking that healthy step to look out for you and do whats right for you.
thats so so powerful !!
luck and love to u
peartree x
[/quote]
Peartree, this is a great point of view!  I think real love is a calm with clarity not anxious, suspicious, insecure feelings.  

SEFG:  Thank you for being sensitive to my need to be closer to god and responding to me in ways that are truly helpful.  You wrote: "My life continued in disabling motion with him... because he would not allow us to build.".  
I experience this too.  I feel like on a scale of 1 to 10, we reached a three in the depth of what we could have had (if he were willing anyway).  When we met, his home was in shambles.  He lived here for almost 6 to 7 years roughly and the place didn't even have storm drains!  When I moved in, I guess I kinda cracked the whip and we put $60,000 into the house over a couple year period.  We did a lot!  Trust me though, we need to put in at least another $100,000!  It was a very stressful time though with him feeling tremendous pressure from me (not because I really gave it, but it was hard for him to balance all the other things he was doing!) and after we did the kitchen, he just stopped doing ANY improvements (about a year ago or so).  So, before I came along, he did nothing to improve the home because he was always "out" climbing on the weekends or chasing some other way to get attention.  You wouldn't have believed the shape the home was in.  To the point:  I saw potential to "build" and add to the home and our lives "together".  I liked that he didn't have a lot of money and appeared to be so caring with kids and animals and lots of friends (seemingly they were friends-but no one is really close to him).  Anyhow, the not "building" doesn't stop in the literal sense, it continues to bleed into every other area of our lives.  I say lives because we live two separate lives.  Bizarre....
Also, you said, "Im doing ok right now.. my life is stable.  I'm not at the CarNival anymore.".
I'm happy to hear that you are recovering and I will send a prayer out for you.  Funny about the carnival statement because that's how I describe my N husband.  He's a one man circus! It appears as though I was part of the carNival....you know, the magic act.  He makes the beautiful woman disappear.  Then he bows at the end and everyone is clapping because he is so woNderful, amazing, talented!

EYES:
One way I looked at it in order to stick with my perceptions is to write down the abusive behaviors and realize that while a narcissist  exhibits great guy behaviors they most definitely act abusively. It is like a secret which is how most abusive people work. I say most because I actually believe that for the abusive person they must create a cover of great where as the more ordinary good guy doesn't have to since he / she is not abusive. No need to be over impressive.
I can totally agree with this!  If a person is normal and doing right, living a humble life treating others well and putting his or her family first, there is most likely not the need to over impress.  I think that he is not only trying to convince others, but also himself.  You are right, I MUST take care of me.  It's ok to quietly "know" what is really happening.  Sometimes, I get caught up with the fact that no one will really know what I am experiencing, but as time goes on and he gets older leaving more broken relationships behind and doesn't "build" anymore than he has today, I think that will eventually speak for itself. I don't expect others to think he is horrible but maybe they will see that I wasn't so terrible to have lost such a great guy and that the others weren't as well.....  

Thank you, ~Solo    

[peartree]

hey girls 
one of my favourite writers is cheri huber (zen buddhist lady, big on compassion and acceptance) and she writes about not being confused by what someone says.
 she said people ALWAYS DO what is most important to them (ALWAYS) so dont be confused by what Ns/or people in general say, what THEY DO is the truth and the REAL part.
this has helped me enormously in seeing through my nice-guy N etc. his behav was also v subtly abusive so i didnt even "get" that for ages i.e silent treatment, ignoring, cutting contact with no explanation, emotional persuasion and manipulation etc, bending reality (gaslighting), undermining me v subtly but i could FEEL it. (More confusion than anything else etc). scarily clever guy (still v scared of him emotionally and psychologically) 
sending everyone my best,
peartree x x x

[eyes_up]

Solo, Your relationship with yourself I important. No man is greater than that... no other person is greater than that. You know who the real man is that you have been married to for what ever years. No one has any place to judge. If they figure their judgment is accurate then let them sleep walk. Do what you know is the right thing based on your experience and not how it appears to others.

Besides the only people who really understand this kind of stuff are those who have processed the same monstrosity. No audience is worth their weight if they do not look into the facts and simply glance at the external symbols.

A narcissist produces symbols as in signs that point to a meaning. Yet we all know on WoN that those symbols are superficial as in facade. Not every one is going to know this and most people are way to concerned with what they are doing. Not really paying attention to you and your really great maN.

eyes

[eyes_up]

"think i am merely another, notch on his bedpost. that's how I'm feeling lately." ~ SFEG

When Looking at a narcissist behavior to define oneself ... yes, I to did feel like a "notch". True enough. considering I was being treated like a notch, an object so I do not wonder why I felt that way.

When I stopped looking at the N's behaviors as a representation & meaning of self I began to relate to my self differently. The narc actions were about his disorder and were not about my worth. In order to get to that head space I had to detached an let go of the narcissist as a partner that I related to as a decent mirror. What I deserve and what I am receiving were no longer confused. Narcissist do not lie and manipulate, cheat and thieve because that is what I deserve.
They do it because they are disordered. So, the question for me is am I going to continue to settle for a persoN who is not able to love.

It got like an island with a narcissist where it was all about his response to me and what ever he thinks and feels is appropriate well, that is all I could sense or feel. I had become separated from a whole world and a whole self and had become a sickened mirror for the narc to feel grand.  I carried his rotten feelings so that he didn't have to make contact with them. I believed they were all mine and that it was me.

I then found out how to hand it back and get on my way to a more nourishing life and a better more honest connection with myself. One of the most important things that came out of enduring a narcissist is that I learned to define myself based on my experience and not on an other persons experience of me or their experience of them self. I am ... not based on what the other person does.

eyes

[peartree]

hi SEFG
i think its so hard to comprehend their way of treating others, as you say objects and its ace that the second you stop trying to understand them you can let go more. eyes_up you are so insightful and astute with this.
my experience with an N was platonic and not physical yet at times i felt i was deeply in love with him and his professed undying love for me was "real" but it just didnt FEEL true.later i realised it felt manipulative and a distortion of reality. it was so Over the top etc. i feel pretty used too (can so relate !) but i let myself be and got pulled in and distracted and tempted by this maN outwith my marriage. a whole lot of shame there that i cant budge and no idea how to try too, or even if i deserve to ! while the N walks away scot-free, guilt less etc, taking no responsibility for his actions and feelings and manipulations.
because i am the married one, i do take on my own "badness" and his and sometimes that feels so heavy. what helps me is taking responsibility and trying to hand N's responsibility back (as eyes_up says)but for me thats blurry and sometimes i just sit with all the responsibility thinking its all mine yet not sure. N's keep things blurry as a master form of manipulation and it works. i think having a v strong sense of self helps (i am lacking this)and holding onto who you are, and trying to let go of what others perceptions of the N are - takes a strong person to stand by not wanting anything to do with the N when others around them think the sun shines out of their butt !!
hugs
peartree x x

[eyes_up]

"for me thats blurry and sometimes i just sit with all the responsibility thinking its all mine yet not sure"  ~ Pear Tree

Of course it is blurry. It takes time to get out of the  N-fog, that blur you are talking about. I had the "blur" as well. it required time to develop a sense of self. It doesn't happen instantly that is for sure.

What it gets down to is attention and efforts to your self and focusing on rebuilding your sense of self. Working from that point instead of focusing on what others think and experience about the narcissist. That is how it worked for me. Really a lot of work to learn how to refocus my energy away from the narc illusion and get involved with establishing self awareness. Unplugging all of the emotional habits that came by the relatioNship.

Post narcissist is brain wash. The narcissist might be gone but the brain wash is still happening. If you are still with the narcissist then it is more difficult to get out of the brain wash.

eyes