Help! N in the workplace!
Originally posted in May of 2006
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 (Original Message) Sent: 5/2/2006 7:43 PM I have a friend that is dealing with an N for sure. She is having to work with him and it is about to get her. She is a fair lady. No cross words to anyone but he N is ganging up on her and the people at work are siding with the N(of course). I have talked to her so much about my N that she called this guy one. I cracked up. I hate it that she is going through this but I really don't know what to say. She can't avoid him and it got back to her that she was steeping on the N's toes and he would make life hell for her.
She is very smart and she is always trying to do the right things for people but the N at her job is making her life hell. I know I have read something about N's at work and what you have to do with them but I can't find anything. I know it is best to side with them but this lady is in the government here and she can;'t do that. She says she has a job and she has to work for the people and she does. It has been awhile since I read it. He is the boss and she is like a union person. I guess is the best way to describe it. She can't avoid him. And she is having to fight him. I would live to help her but I only know how they are in relationships, of which they aren't. lol
Any wisdom on this subject would help a lot and I know you have some. Let me know. I have dealt with jerks at work and people that wanted to be in control but the bosses usually do that and i don't work for one so I don't know what to say. She is beside herself and her husband is trying to stay out of it.
Thanks and take care,
Turtle
From: Zivot1 Sent: 5/2/2006 8:33 PM I worked with an N but then I understood it and their dynamics. I used manipulation to get me thru the day but I doubt if your friend knows that artform.
I believe that CZ had a good article in regards to N at work. I will look too.
From: Lynnette Sent: 5/2/2006 8:49 PM The best website for dealing with N's in the workplace, IMO, is Tim Fields' website,
www.bullyonline.org It has pages and pages of information on bullies in general and several sections dedicated to N's in the workplace.
I have a lot of experience with N's in the workplace, Turtle and I can give you some perspective here. Your friend should be documenting everything, recording instances of his behavior for her personal reference in case she needs it in the future. There is lots of undermining to deal with. It's exhausting.
I have to run for tonight, but wanted to answer right away and at least give you the website to start. I'll get back to you more in-depth in the morning.
Hugs!
Lynnette
From: Rox24201 Sent: 5/2/2006 8:57 PM Dear Turtle:
I don't have any advice but wanted to express my empathy. Working with a true N or possibly P is agony. I just ran across a female N/P in the office. She told the boss up front in the interview (he told me later) that she has had problems with females in the workplace in the past because she's so beautiful. Gag, who says this stuff? She has no problems charming the females who she feels she needs to impress. I'm not sure what she does with the males who are equal or below. Charms them for supply probably.
Anyway, she's the biggest creepy crawler I've met in a long time. Without my current knowledge of PD's, I would have scooted under a rock thinking it was me. I mentioned this somewhere else that she was something you would see on an old movie flick where she's clubbing the handicapped younger brother of her fiance with the oar while he felt safe being alone with her. What was that 50's flick anyway? Or, I couldn't imagine leaving this evil woman alone with a stepchild. She is truly sick, these are not just traits. She makes Losing Susan look like a cream puff.
I would be very interested in any responses regarding these sharks. How they fool management throughout the years, company after company is beyond me.
I feel your friend's pain. If N is in a superior position, other subordinates will side with him. It's just how the office politics work. People tend to watch out for themselves when there are bills to be paid. It's dog eat dog. Pleasant, eh?
I'll keep my eye on this thread.
Love,
Rox
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/2/2006 9:00 PM Hi Zivot,
Thank you. This is getting ugly and has been in the paper every week. I just want to help if I can. At least she knew what an N was. She has listened well. lol When she said"He is just a narcissist", I thought I would fall out. Not many people care what an N is but if you have been through it like we have then you know first hand.
Thanks again and nice to meet you.
Turtle
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/2/2006 9:11 PM Thanks Lynnette. I appreciate the website and I will check it out and copy it for her. I can get it to her tomorrow. She is having a terrible time. She said after the meeting this morning she had to get away so... what is the best way to handle that? She went shopping! lol
Have a good evening and I thank you for the help.
Turtle
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/2/2006 9:18 PM Thanks Rox. Oh yeah she is the dirty dog and she is the one trying to do the right thing. He could care less about other people. But he does have it out for her and she is exhausted. I feel so sorry for her. But after I talked to her on the phone tonight I knew the place to come for answers.
As for the female N you were talking about...gag is right! Only and N would say that. lol I would hate to put up with a woman like that in the workplace. There is no telling what she is doing with the men. But I bet she is mean to the other women! So beautiful, yeah in her mirror. lol
Thanks again Rox,
Turtle
From: Lynnette Sent: 5/3/2006 7:04 AM Dear Turtle--
Without knowing a whole lot of the details here, a few things are sticking out at me from what you have said. First of all, if this situation has escalated to the point that it's in the paper every week...it's highly probable that She Can't Manage Him, no matter what she does or doesn't do. He's getting supply out of the attention it's generating. He's got a smear campaign going on and he's got an enemy to overcome, support from the minions in doing it, and he's in his glory right now.
Employees of N's serve one function...supply. When they disagree, excel without him being able to claim the credit, clearly show that they are liked and well-regarded all on their own, that they can think for themselves and function independently of the N, they become targets. Envy kicks in. That's a threat to his power and his image and his control.
She could try managing this situation to hope it improves by treating the N with kid gloves, but it seems as if it's gone beyond the point where she can do that. He lives for the adulation and support of his underlings, so the people supporting him are providing that and at the same time getting his approval and they're keeping the target off their own back, so it's unlikely she'll find allies in her co-workers.
This leaves her with how she will react to what he does. If she disagrees with him openly, he will seek revenge, usually covertly. If she reacts emotionally to him, (i.e. getting visibly upset), he will continue his attack because it's getting a reaction. As hard as it is, she needs to react to him as objectively and with as little hurt showing as possible. Non-committal statements could work. "I'll take that into consideration." Etc. But she can't afford to make him look bad right now, not in front of her coworkers, or she will pay the price. She could confront him quietly in private and ask him to show her exactly where she has done something that is objectionable. Chapter and verse. He won't provide it, cuz he probably doesn't have it. That might quiet him, but it's risky because again, it would make him look bad.
The first thing your friend needs to realize is that everything he is saying about her, every attempt he makes to undermine her credibility, is sheer projection. All the things we know to be true about why targets are targeted are true of the N-workplace dynamic as well. The target is what he envies. At one point, she may have even been a valued employee in his eyes, as long as he could claim the credit anyway. Now she's being discarded because she is not useful to him. She is not providing supply, she is not propping up his image.
If this is a government position, I would assume that there is a governing body that he reports to or that monitors his department somewhere. She may be able to present a case to them, but this requires extensive documentation. She needs to write down every incident that transpires, what he said, why it wasn't valid, and keep immaculate records of what she did which dispute his claims.
It sounds as if this woman is an advocate for the people she represents in her capacity and this is her main concern...their welfare. Well, we know that N's are only concerned with their own. So, she could just go on doing her job on behalf of the people she feels responsible for and at the same time attribute all of her own success to him and his superior skills (he'd love that, of course), but if it comes down to it, she probably wouldn't be able to stomache it, and it's probably too late for that. Right now she needs to rely on department guidelines and policy and be able to demonstrate how she has followed them to the letter and that there is no validity to his claims. I doubt that even though he is absolutely convinced that he makes the rules, there are a whole lot of rules in place that he didn't make. She is, unfortunately, in a position to have to defend herself.
It requires being able to emotionally detach from what he's claiming about her. When the meetings get unbearable, she is going through a typical "flight or fight" response...thus, the shopping. That isn't a bad thing if it does not impact their perception of HER negatively. If she chooses flight, does he have one more thing to complain about? If so, she needs to find another way to detach from the craziness, even if it's sitting at her desk and doing affirmations for ten minutes.
In the end, if there is an all-out campaign to oust her, she may need to be proactive and find a way to either get transferred or find a new position and on her way out the door explain to whoever HE reports to exactly why she's leaving and show them the documentation of her experiences with the N to back it up. Sadly, she isn't the first person he's done this with and she probably won't be the last.
Lynnette
From: Lynnette Sent: 5/3/2006 7:20 AM One other thought, Turtle. Your friend should pay very close attention to the accusations he's hurling at her, because they are likely projections that are actually true of him. She needs to focus on what he might be saying about himself here when he attributes things to her. I guarantee you there is some inadequacy or wrongdoing on the part of the N that he is not owning up to somewhere and projecting onto her. Whether it's worth it to her to take on the role of whistleblower or not, is of course, up to her. What there might be there to blow the whistle about may not be substantial enough to do it, I don't know. At the very least, it might give her a little peace of mind to see it as a projection of his own inadequacies instead of meaning anything about her.
Lynnette
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/3/2006 4:16 PM Hey Lynn,
Thank you. She is handling it like a pro but he is wanting to spend millions and she is trying to stop it. This is in a small town so I will pass what I can on to her as best I can so that she will understand it in non victim terms as we know it. He is crazy and she is trying to stop him before the city gets in trouble. I will tell her to document, document, document. She is a pretty tough old bird so I think she can handle it.I think she will report everything to the state. She does have some backing but what is in the paper is never right. They are trying to make her out the fool. She does have some backing in the city but there are a lot of people that believe the N and we know all about that!
Thank you for the help. I appreciate it. I just wanted to know what others thought.
And thank you to the others. Now I am going over there and find out what happened today!
Take care and many hugs,
Turtle
From: Rachel-Grateful1 Sent: 5/3/2006 4:37 PM This is a link to a site
"The Impact of Narcissim on Leadership" it has information on N's and the professional environment.
Hope it helps...
Love and Hugs,
Rachel-Grateful1
http://ceres.ca.gov/tcsf/pathways/chapter12.html
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/3/2006 6:58 PM The seed is sewn. Thank you for the replies. I knew I would find out what I needed. I talked to my friend today and some things have changed and backfired in the N's face as of today.We both laughed out loud! lol I think she is going to get him. lol I did tell her a few things and then I said document, document, document.
Take care,
Turtle
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/3/2006 7:12 PM Thank you Rachel. This has been a nig help. H eis going to make a fool out of himself int he public eye just like they always do. He did it today. I think the pressure is getting to him. They are all a like...cowards!
Hugs,
Turtle
From: IA101 Sent: 5/3/2006 8:53 PM Hello, Turtle........
I have a ton of sympathy and understanding for your friend. Our N at work, left of her own volition just a few months ago. The six months she was there was unbearable. I spent some time in here lamenting the state of my being. lol Bad enough to live with one but to work with one was awful and that's an understatement.
I was given sound advice and encouragement in this place of healing. Rox shared stories of Losin' Susan and Lynn was spot on every time. I had the N pegged within three weeks and she hated for me being unresponsive; read as no supply. That was when the smear campaign began and she was good in that department.
Document, document, document. Down to every last thing she does including when she/he had lunches, etc. Don't forget the small stuff. Being a government postion means there are administrative rules which are applied across the board. The N will believe they don't apply to him or is even unaware of them. She can store those in her tool box. Given enough rope, the N will hang himself. That appears to have begun.
"I guarantee you there is some inadequacy or wrongdoing on the part of the N that he is not owning up to somewhere and projecting onto her." ...Lynn
I will guarantee that this is 100% correct. I witnessed this time after time. Do not under estimate this point. We are still finding and fixing this employees errors months later. I keep hoping there is not a fatal error lurking in the future. Even when one could prove she made the error, she would deny it and point the finger at another. Every single time. It is a characteristic of the disease.
I eventually was able to take a step back; kind of make like a duck. Let the water flow from my back but it was difficult. I was able to predict her behavior and responses in any given situation. The rest of the staff was amazed when I'd say "Here is what she will do......, watch closely." In civilian terms I pointed out that:
Everthing N does is intended to manipulate:
1. Get N's way;
2. Invoke sympathy;
3. Make N the center of attention;
4. Shove N's responsibilities on someone else & misplace blame.
Once the pattern is known and recognized, prediction of behavior is possible. N's in the work place do not like intelligent, competent, responsible, boundary setting co-workers. We simply do not prop them up and give them proper homage [according to them].
Yes, they are cowards. Maybe one day I'll have time to tell you how she quit. Let's just say, it was under doctors recommendation. {NOT}.
Educate your friend, tell her to give him rope and document, document, document.
Hugs to your friend and love to you,
IA
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/3/2006 9:18 PMHey IA,
I am so glad you had the knowledge that you had when you had to work with one of these people from the black lagoon. lol I bet your friends at work thought you were a mind reader. I bet the N female didn't know what to do with you. I am so glad you didn't give her supply. I bet that blew her little pea brain.
Thanks for the help. This lady is about as smart as they come but dang I hate for anyone to be treated mean by them. And if there was anyone that doesn't deserve a smear campaign it would be her (and all of us).
Thanks for the help. Yes, he is going to hang himself. They had a meeting the other night with some out of town people. It was supposed to be N and my friend and about six other people. Guess who should up? My friend and the N! lol I bet he about died. She is not afraid of him in anyway.
Hugs,
Turtle
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/3/2006 9:26 PM Ya'll just fill in the correct words for the typos. I am doing the best I can.
Hugs,
Turtle
From: IA101 Sent: 5/3/2006 10:27 PM Yes, Turtle........
I frustated her to no end. She could not figure out how to extract the "expected" reply from me. Little did she know I had thirty years experience of N manipulation.
No, your friend does not deserve this mistreatment. They target those that won't put up with the BS. I have the feeling she'll come out on top.
Typos? Wwhere? Nno typppo police heeere!
Hugs,
IA
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/4/2006 4:32 AM LOL IA!
Hugs,
Turtle
From: growingintomyself Sent: 5/4/2006 12:22 PM Dear Surviver, Dont you wish all of the Ns had to wear a big red N on their lapel to identify these evil ones! (N/or P) Some of us are just so not with it in picking up those nasty big red flags. Its interesting cause I work in the mental health field which seems to attract either Ns or people that are just so interested in helping other people that they get targeted.(think Ill be a plumber in my next life!) hugs...growing
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/4/2006 4:53 PM Growing,
It should be a law. We know the N law and I just hope it helps other people. At least my friend listened to me when I was talking about the N. She even called one night and asked me if I knew a certain guy and if I thought he was an N.And yes I think he is. lol I liked it. At least some people listened!
Hugs,
turtle
From: IA101 Sent: 5/6/2006 9:35 AM Glad your friend listened and learned. Darn, it is hard to educate the civilians!
IA
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/6/2006 3:29 PM IA,
Most of the civilians don't listen. But, some have. Thank goodness. I thought I was nuts but it turned out I wasn't! lol Thank goodness for the message boards!
Take care,
Turtle
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/10/2006 3:29 PM Hi everyone,
Just an update. My neighbor made the front page yesterday. It seems the N is turning everything around like we all know that they will and using word salad. I talked to a guy yesterday said that he was at the meetings and she did say things but the paper makes it sound totally different. Haven't we all been through that? They seemed to have singled her out and the N has his following and it seems to be the paper. He has them fooled but my neighbor is smarter than that. She knows what he is doing. grrrrr N's. They are nuts. Today it hit the editorial page. Looks like there is going to have to be a stand at the N Corral.
I hope everyone is doing well with their N's.
Hugs,
Turtle
From: IA101 Sent: 5/10/2006 6:57 PM Awww, Turtle........
Don't we just love word salad? [not] A bit of mixed greens, a few fresh veggies, various cheeses, and a lovely home made dressing consisting of vinegar and sugar with croutons heaped on top. Give it a toss in the air and then we can scramble to divide the mess into the proper categories.
I still have the feeling your friend will prevail.
Nope, your're not nuts. The N is.
Love,
IA
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/10/2006 9:00 PM Hi IA,
Ah yes word salad. Sometimes I wish I could do it. I would love to blow some folks minds but I am glad I don't have the disorder. Throw it in the air is right! These folks are nuts.
I hope she kicks his butt. I said the other day that my friend had on her campaign sign when she ran that it said, "Vote for me and I will make sure that people do the right thing or I will kick your butt!" I was just kidding and everyone got tickled. This is ridiculous. Oh but Ns are ridiculous. I think she is going to prevail too.
IA don't eat the word salad, it is not good today or tomorrow or the next day or....
Hugs,
Turtle
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/16/2006 7:57 PM Ok the guy is trying the smear campign on my friend. He siad he found somehting when it fell out of her mailbox at work and now he is trying to fire the girl that sent it. My friend did not ask for the paper and now the guy is saying that it fell out of the mailbox! Uh one peice of paper doesn not fall out of the mailbox. He and his foillowers are vicious. They are goign to try to black ball her.
Anymore wisdom that I can pass on. I told her to document everything.
grrrrrr damn N's.
Turtle
From: Rox24201 Sent: 5/16/2006 8:04 PM Hi Turtle:
I KNOW! Dang, how can normal people compete with that? I mean, we can't draw something up to fall out of their mailbox now, can we? It's crazy stuff.
That's why I felt I was whipped down to an emotional wreck. I couldn't believe what these people were capable of, it scares me to even think about it.
Your friend will be in my thoughts. I shudder.
Love,
Rox
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 5/16/2006 8:55 PM Thanks Rox. They are amazing. But, she didn't ask for the paper and know he is trying to say she did and then fire the girl that sent it. So, he is trying to set the girl up too. He is trying to replace her. He is afraid of my friend and I think he will do anything to get her to leave him alone so he can destroy this town. grrrrrrrr my friend is trying every way to keep it running.
But, he is setting her up. He has already got the newspaper reporter in his back pocket so now the paper reads that my friend is the one that starts everything. She isn't.
Oh he has them fooled but she will not back down. He will end up making a fool out of himself. He isn't as smart as some N's. But, I am pretty sure from what i have heard that he is one.
Hugs and thanks,
Turtle
Total Members: 
