Divorce and protecting yourself from a Narc

[~Solo]

I made the mistake of going up to my N husband's home yesterday morning.  I partly missed him and partly picked up a couple more items.  Yes, I should already have everything out.  I guess this is all part of keeping the ability to go back there.  It's unhealthy I'm finding out.  I guess I went up because he called me the day before to see if I was interested in going to see his new pup.  I met him and saw the dog briefly.  I can see that my Nh is interested in looking like the "good guy" again.  He brought our other dog with him too.  I love the dogs and he knows it.  Anyway, I went up to the house yesterday because I thought it would be ok considering how nice he was the day before.  Before we visited he asked if I wanted to go for a walk with him and the dogs.  It was before 8am at that time.  I said no.  We visited and the conversation slowly drifted into his poor life and choices and how much time he had wasted over the years, how much he misses his family who live 3000 miles away, how business is falling, etc.  He said he felt like carpeting the house, renting it and getting out of dodge.  I said, "you should do that then".  Of course that was just a smokescreen.  He then said, "but then I ask myself how I will make this kind of money over there".  I then told him I would sign the divorce papers and let him go.  He shook his head in agreement and thought to himself, "wow...this is easier than I thought".  Then the phone rang at 8 am sharp.  I had been up to the house a week ago getting office stuff out and checked caller id.  The unknown calls come in at 8 am.  That morning was no different.  I went over to his phone and pushed the button and said to him, "you have a message, I should go and let you get back to whoever that is".  He said, "I don't care who it is, I don't even check my messages often anymore".  My take is that it's the new woman, but I could be wrong.  He became very upset with me though and began asking me why I looked and he made me very nervous with his questions because I knew it was just to put the blame on me to protect himself from me questioning who was calling.  Then he said, "You're a detective and I don't want to be married to you".  "You will never trust me and see me how I want to be seen".  As I was leaving, I said timidly to him, "You're not perfect, ya know".  That's all it took for him to shake all over (his crazy display) get in my face and say, "I never said I was", then knock a hole in the wall with his elbow.  He headed toward the slider and I began getting really nervous as I feared he would break it even though I know the act was to inflict fear.  I grabbed my purse, got into my car and drove off.  We spoke later about filing paperwork and ended up in an argument.  I ended it with telling him how I didn't want to be with him either and told him all the things I'm tired of.  Two and a half hours later, he called me and I declined call.  His message was: "That was a pretty f'd up discussion and I don't know why it gets pushed to that.  Maybe you can call me back and we can have a regular discussion". 
Ha!  We were on the phone for 1 (one) hour and 9 minutes.  If we couldn't get a regular conversation out in that time, we won't be able to at all.  Then he texted me a half hour later the same message.  I waited a couple hours and said, "I can't".  He said, "OK". then right away he texted again , "it's too bad. Seems like we should put that conversation away".  I simply said, "Away?"  his response: "I feel like it will just linger out there, like it will begin to define how we act toward each other".  (what planet is he on?  BEGIN to define?  What was the hole in the wall for the umpteenth time?!)  I waited another two hours and said, "I can't talk.  Please email if you want to inform me of anything.  Otherwise, I just can't".  I didn't hear anything till this morning.  He said, "I understand.  I am sorry about yesterday". 
So the reason I write (can you believe I didn't get to it yet??)....
I'm thinking the best way to handle this divorce is through email.  No emotion.  No heart tugging.  Also, it will keep everything clean, organized and recorded.  This is all very difficult for me.  I do love him, but I do see how this can never work.  He doesn't want it to.  He has never done the work.  As soon as we married, it went down fast!  He says he did everything and he read what I brought home.  I couldn't believe my ears.  He MAY have read 10 pages between the all the books and tools I have brought home in the four years together.  It's a joke....  All about him.  It's been four years of his trips involving his friends, his Christmas with his family, his goals, dreams, hopes, feelings, his despair, how I have victimized him, etc.  It's so sad.  That's all I can say.

~Solo

[peartree]

hi solo
maybe you needed to go back just to be sure what u were feeling in terms of how badly he has treated you and the crazy making still applied. and hey he proved he will never change and doesnt care about the relationship. good for you for seeing that. you saw through the using of the dogs to hook you in too. well done !
email sounds good or just do it through lawyers etc. anything else sounds like he will just headf___ you and leave you confused. he is projecting so much blame and dysfunction as if he's the rational, well behaved one. you dont need to be dragged into that.
hugs and luck
peartree x x x

[tango3]

Solo
Yes you have to go completely NC - just e-mails.  N walked out on me after 23 years last February.  Took me a while to figure out that NC was the way to go.  If you talk to them they twist your words and use them against you.  You CAN'T talk to them, you CAN'T have a conversation with them - not ever.

I know it's hard but it does get easier with time.

[CZBZ]

Dear solo,

That was a great post, don't worry about getting to the point too soon. Otherwise, I might not actually 'get your point' because there's no 'context'. We have to share more about the actual experience so people can identify with the situation and know more about you and your soon-to-be-x-but-not-soon-enough. What I like about stories like the one you took time to write, is that it paints a picture in my mind and helps me identify with similar experiences of my own. That way, we both help each other out, right?

"Then he said, "You're a detective and I don't want to be married to you".  "You will never trust me and see me how I want to be seen"."

O my gosh! Is that typical of a narcissist or what? HE doesn't want to be married anymore because YOU refuse to deny how untrustworthy he is. HE accuses YOU of being a 'detective' (did that make ya feel guilty 'cuz i hope not!) which in essence, puts the BLAME on you for not trusting him rather than realizing how his behavior has led to this situation in the first place.

Plus, this comment blew me away: "You will never see me how I want to be seen." I guess that means he wants to be seen a certain way no matter what HE DOES. How narcissistic is that?

I am very relieved that you escaped without getting hurt physically. Yes, your feelings are hurt and your hopes likely took a 'beating', that's true. We all go through numerous 'reality checks' until we finally accept things ARE the way they ARE and there's nothing we can do to change someone else who, more than likely, is perfectly FINE with themselves. It's just all those other folks that won't let them say they are 'honorable' when they aren't. Or trustworthy when they aren't.

The grief is the next stage of our healing once we learn enough about narcissism to admit to ourselves that there isn't anything we can say or do (or said or did) that will change or could have changed an inevitable outcome.

P.S. I have found that once the relationship ends, even under the best of circumstances, the N is even more defensive towards us than ever. We can sneeze and they assume we're spreading germs on purpose. Just to 'get 'em back'.

Old narcissistic supply is highly suspect and always will be. That's my impression anyway.


Hugs,
CZ

[Onward]

Solo,
Your story really hit home with me - I just joined this group today, and I've been married to an N for 9+ years.  We have two small children and to say it's been tough is an understatement, as anyone here can attest to.  I am just shocked by the similarities between your husband and mine...mine had an affair; I caught him at a restaurant with her, kissing and all that, and it became all my fault - I violated his trust by 'tracking' him to the restaurant, he never would have had the affair if he wasn't married to me (duh - if he wasn't married it wouldn't have been an issue!), and I only see what I want to see, not what he 'truly' is. 

I'm sure your husband has said many of the same incredibly hurtful things that mine has; you are one step ahead of me, however.  My husband is moving out this weekend, to "give us space".  He doesn't want to divorce - in his words, he "doesn't want to not be married to me."  I think the ring on his finger makes him feel secure that he can have affairs, but they won't 'go anywhere' because he's married.  He doesn't want to work on the marriage at all.  I, too, saw it falling apart weeks after we married.  He actually told me that he 'faked' the entire 20 months of our dating/engagement period, just to 'get' me.  I didn't believe it at the time, but now I sure do.

I am certain our situation will end in divorce.  I can't trust him, and he, so far, has been very unwilling to work towards a partnership.  I, too, have many, many books, things that would help us build intimacy, etc., all of which he either threw across the room when I shared them or just got so angry over I couldn't even bring them out.  I am looking forward to hearing more about your situation and how it proceeds, as I am fairly sure I will be following in your footsteps soon.

I wish you all the very, very best of luck.
Onward

[BlueSky]

On the idea of only communicating via email...give it a try.  It didn't work well for me in some ways, but it might for you.  I think knowing what I know now, I could make it work better than it did.  Hindsight, ya know?

Ex and I had a few fights via email - it is very easy to get upset, write a response and send it right away.  So, if you do email, take time to calm down if you get upset reading the N's emails.  I wish I'd done that.  Ex managed to get me riled up a few times and I got pretty angry in a handful of emails....which he later sent bits & pieces of to friends & families to 'prove' I was an abusive, psycho ex-wife - which was the reason he gave for walking out on our son.

Emails didn't seem to help much as exN would still not remember what he'd written before or what I'd written before.  Sometimes I even got confused about what had been written as he'd say one thing and then say something else weeks or months later.  There was still a ton of miscommunication - but at least I could go back over old emails and review them.

ExN would write emails that were hard to read and I know now that he was still trying to keep his hooks in me.  It was quite upsetting - I'd get nostalgic emails where he'd end up asking 'what went wrong between us' and then the next month he's telling me that I can't go to my son's events if he and his new gf are going to be there.  It was a roller-coaster - I was pulled back into his crap when he was acting nice and then it was like he'd bang me over the head a short time later.

It was hard breaking free from him and sometimes it felt like I was still married to him even though part of the time he was dating the gal he later married.  I didn't want much of anything to do with him and in no way wanted to reconcile with him - but I sometimes felt bad for him when he'd let on that he was feeling sad or upset.  In retrospect, I can see that it would have worked better if I'd kept communication to a bare minimum and kept it strictly about co-parenting our son.

I eventually switched to snail mail - which seemed to really get exN mad.  But it helped me to really think about things before I sent a letter and to keep them strictly about co-parenting issues.  I have been basically NC now for over two years - all communication is via attorneys and I prefer it that way.  Very few of his twisted letters actually get passed on to me.  The attorneys are a great buffer.

It is hard to go through a divorce, but I think in some ways it may be best to make a clean break.  ExN had the key to my new house and I had the key to our old house for a long time.  I took a long time getting all my things moved out and I do think that was unhealthy.  I finally couldn't stand it and left the key in my son's playhouse at the old house.  I figured that if I truly needed it in an emergency, I'd have it.  I found I didn't need it.  When exN got engaged, I asked for my key back.  I was so nervous about it and sure enough he was mad.  But I knew the gf would likely be upset if she found out he had a key to my house - she may have later on as she was there when I asked for the key.  At that point, I didn't know much about her, but knew enough that she was quite insecure.  She didn't say anything, but I imagine it upset her.

You have an advantage at this point that I didn't have....you know what you're dealing with.  I really didn't and I was not protecting myself from exN very well.  Protect yourself and don't let your stbx get to you! 

[~Solo]

Hi everyone... 

CZ- yeah, I'm seeing that what my husband says and does is pretty typical.  It's like he had some sort of chip implanted into his body at birth with special Narc programs on them.  His behaviors are "all" very Narc and it does not matter that I have not found affairs because without them, all the other behaviors are enough to know that he simply cannot LOVE me. 

Bluesky- I can see how it is very important to really digest in email before responding.  I have been pretty good about it and if I need to respond to him because of his sense of urgency, I am simply telling him, "I have to work right now, but I have received your call (I won't take any calls and surprising he has still called?) and your emails and I will write when I am finished.  That gives me time to respond.  I agree with you on the clean break.  I think also that my information on this disorder, while has not diminished the pain, but is beginning to keep it to a minimum.  I'm not through the worst, but AM hoping for the right path to open up and allow me to be taken care of without too much opposition from him.  What I mean is: I am going to ask for more money.  I feel like I will be treading dangerous waters, but I do need to think of myself in this ecnomy.  My business is slow right now....  I'll post more on that.

Onward- Welcome - You sound as though you are pretty level-headed.  I'm really happy that you already seem to know that this is headed for divorce.  I don't mean to jump right in there on that and in normal situations, we would NEVER do that to a person regarding their life decision.  However, when dealing with a Narc, it appears that if you for one moment, think that things will ever be normal and trust them to take care of your heart, you lose more an more of that heart.  Hang on to your heart!  Keep it close to your smart brain.  And as far as you tracking your husband, good for you.  I hope that in the future, someone checks on me.  I don't have a problem with that.  I'm honest, kind, loving, devoted, future oriented, goal oriented and I deeply LOVE.  That's what your husband isn't and he cannot allow you to see that... My N couldn't allow anyone to see the real him.  More and more I see him as an infant.  I thank god for distancing my heart more and more.  It's been three weeks and I am beginning to lose the love I had for him.  I never knew it possible.  Thank you God!!!  It will happen for you.  Love your son  Lose your pain associated with the other undeserving male in your life.  That is what he IS....UNDESERVING.  We earn respect and trust.  Without honesty and communication (real), we never acquire those things.  I heard the whole time that I do not trust.  No more...no more.  I don't have to believe him.  I know that I do have trust challenges due to life but it happens, but when someone is "trustworthy", the two of you can work on it together.  We have to be brave to make it longer and stronger in this world.  There are people out there who want to grow and LOVE.  Close a door, open a window. 
Glad you're here.  The women on here are awesome!  Believe in yourself Onward 

SEFG - I have been reading a bit of Psalms.  It's a beautiful way to balance the anger I'm beginning to get.  I'm seeing it as productive though because I'm taking care of myself with healthy boundaries now.  I didn't do that before.  I was so afraid of him rejecting me.  I'm really losing the love I had for him.  I want him gone from my life.
I LOVE your statement about the birthday party mode.  It's soooo true!  He's a barrell of fun for sure.  I'm happy that he has THAT going for him.  I'm beginning to look at why I was attracted to that.  Sure it's nice when someone is intelligent, can have a conversation and can make you laugh, but if they do it as if they are in a performance, something just isn't right.  My N was in a performance when we got together.  He told me joke after joke, showed off his sexy-ness at every turn and every other attribute he had that was shallow because that's all he had.  He had to win me over.  So, he did it with his charm, wit, looks, etc.  Nothing, long lasting and slow burning.  Just a firework show that cost us dearly and is long over....

Peartree - thanks for your input.  You're are "lucky" to not be involved any longer with the N in your life.  They are a mirage.  And yes, maybe I went up just to see how he could twist that morning...I don't really know.  I was extracting the last bit of real love I had for him I think.  As usual, he accepted it, ate it up, spit it out, stomped on it, and kicked it out on to the front deck!  Hallelujah!!  Sometimes, when we Win, we lose.  Sometimes, when we lose, we Win!!!!!! Jackpot

Tango - 23 years...I'm sorry and I hope you are in a good place now.  NC is a must as I can see how they are so capable of twisting even ONE word.  Give them a sentence and it's a playground!Hi everyone... 

CZ- yeah, I'm seeing that what my husband says and does is pretty typical.  It's like he had some sort of chip implanted into his body at birth with special Narc programs on them.  His behaviors are "all" very Narc and it does not matter that I have not found affairs because without them, all the other behaviors are enough to know that he simply cannot LOVE me. 

Bluesky- I can see how it is very important to really digest in email before responding.  I have been pretty good about it and if I need to respond to him because of his sense of urgency, I am simply telling him, "I have to work right now, but I have received your call (I won't take any calls and surprising he has still called?) and your emails and I will write when I am finished.  That gives me time to respond.  I agree with you on the clean break.  I think also that my information on this disorder, while has not diminished the pain, but is beginning to keep it to a minimum.  I'm not through the worst, but AM hoping for the right path to open up and allow me to be taken care of without too much opposition from him.  What I mean is: I am going to ask for more money.  I feel like I will be treading dangerous waters, but I do need to think of myself in this ecnomy.  My business is slow right now....  I'll post more on that.

Onward- Welcome - You sound as though you are pretty level-headed.  I'm really happy that you already seem to know that this is headed for divorce.  I don't mean to jump right in there on that and in normal situations, we would NEVER do that to a person regarding their life decision.  However, when dealing with a Narc, it appears that if you for one moment, think that things will ever be normal and trust them to take care of your heart, you lose more an more of that heart.  Hang on to your heart!  Keep it close to your smart brain.  And as far as you tracking your husband, good for you.  I hope that in the future, someone checks on me.  I don't have a problem with that.  I'm honest, kind, loving, devoted, future oriented, goal oriented and I deeply LOVE.  That's what your husband isn't and he cannot allow you to see that... My N couldn't allow anyone to see the real him.  More and more I see him as an infant.  I thank god for distancing my heart more and more.  It's been three weeks and I am beginning to lose the love I had for him.  I never knew it possible.  Thank you God!!!  It will happen for you.  Love your son  Lose your pain associated with the other undeserving male in your life.  That is what he IS....UNDESERVING.  We earn respect and trust.  Without honesty and communication (real), we never acquire those things.  I heard the whole time that I do not trust.  No more...no more.  I don't have to believe him.  I know that I do have trust challenges due to life but it happens, but when someone is "trustworthy", the two of you can work on it together.  We have to be brave to make it longer and stronger in this world.  There are people out there who want to grow and LOVE.  Close a door, open a window. 
Glad you're here.  The women on here are awesome!  Believe in yourself Onward 

SEFG - I have been reading a bit of Psalms.  It's a beautiful way to balance the anger I'm beginning to get.  I'm seeing it as productive though because I'm taking care of myself with healthy boundaries now.  I didn't do that before.  I was so afraid of him rejecting me.  I'm really losing the love I had for him.  I want him gone from my life.
I LOVE your statement about the birthday party mode.  It's soooo true!  He's a barrell of fun for sure.  I'm happy that he has THAT going for him.  I'm beginning to look at why I was attracted to that.  Sure it's nice when someone is intelligent, can have a conversation and can make you laugh, but if they do it as if they are in a performance, something just isn't right.  My N was in a performance when we got together.  He told me joke after joke, showed off his sexy-ness at every turn and every other attribute he had that was shallow because that's all he had.  He had to win me over.  So, he did it with his charm, wit, looks, etc.  Nothing, long lasting and slow burning.  Just a firework show that cost us dearly and is long over....

Peartree - thanks for your input.  You're are "lucky" to not be involved any longer with the N in your life.  They are a mirage.  And yes, maybe I went up just to see how he could twist that morning...I don't really know.  I was extracting the last bit of real love I had for him I think.  As usual, he accepted it, ate it up, spit it out, stomped on it, and kicked it out on to the front deck!  Hallelujah!!  Sometimes, when we Win, we lose.  Sometimes, when we lose, we Win!!!!!! Jackpot

Tango - 23 years...I'm sorry and I hope you are in a good place now.  NC is a must as I can see how they are so capable of twisting even ONE word.  Give them a sentence and it's a playground!

So I received an email yesterday stating that he was sorry and wondering if marriage counseling would be an option.  He listed reasons as to why we had the "perfect storm" with his dad near death, him working with 90% women, me in school finding my path, us trying to figure out who's family to live by, economy slump and bleeding money, living on the mountain in the middle of nowhere and me being alone most the time, him being stressed out of his mind, etc.  Then he wrote that we need to be in a recovery phase.  He stated that it was no wonder "WE" went insane.  He began by writing that he hopes I am ok and doing well.  That was so considerate of him, huh?
My take: "WE" didn't do insane.  He IS insane. I tried to love him through tough times, he didn't want it.  Normal couples do that.  His father did have prostate cancer and heart surgery before he could treat that.  It was a difficult thing for sure.  I in no way detract from that fact.  I lost my father at his young age of 46 to lung cancer.  However, he went to be with his family and when I'd call him, he would act as though I was an intruder upon his time with his family.  I was looked upon like an annoyance because I would call him to say hi or ask questions about dad's condition or have house questions.  Then I would feel upset by his coldness and ask him why.  He'd repeat my questions out loud so he could be heard then get mad at me and distance himself from me creating a confusion in me.  Then he would create a big yelling scene which was all him.  I would sit on the other side of the phone charred.  The family of course thinking, "poor guy has to deal with this when his father is in the hospital".  It was a complete fabrication and sick.  Also, he did work with 90% women.  I had asked about a few people in the beginning but nothing that any other person wouldn't do.  I am pretty good about it though even considering his flirtatiousness and his absence.  I was in school, but so what.  I loved it and did well.  I didn't get in the way.  We did have money saved which I frequently checked in on to see if I was ok to stay in school without keeping a full time job.  He always said it was fine.  However, I did go back last year to work.  Our bank account did begin to bleed, but I didn't know because I didn't have access to it.  I never worried about it.  I trusted he did what he needed to do.  I had my own money saved from before him.  He helped and was mostly generous with me.  So, no alarms.  As far as which family to live by...we NEVER talked about living by mine.  We frequently spoke about why he wanted to be by HIS and how guilty he felt for leaving 14 years ago and then it became about IF he could move back there with ME...  It's all nuts.  He didn't want anything to work.  He began saying I would not be ok out there alone.  He didn't want to feel responsible for that.  I was alone at our home 90% of the time.  He was always running around doing something (god only knows).  It was so lonely for me on the mountain. 
Well, no more of any of that.  I really do not love him anymore.  Maybe it's a phase, but I hope not.  I am beginning to see so much more clearly now.  Thank god!  Having the knowledge and being on here has helped tremendously.

As I received this email, I had just finished calling his accountant who filed our taxes jointly last year to ask about his filing this year.  I told her I filed separately.  Well, she called and told him as I had also requested to know what my individual refund would have been for 08 as he never gave it to me.  So, almost at the moment he hit send on his email to me, the accountant called him.  So, he called me and I declined call.  He asked what I was doing and asked for my honesty in my decision to use an attorney.  Please call him and we will keep the call short.
My response to his call and his email:  "The ONLY reason I contacted accountant was because we aren't speaking and I was wondering about my refund from last year and I was confused by this year (basically I said that - condensed for you here, but it was brief and without feeling-only facts).  Then I said, "As far as your email, I don't have ANY answers now".  He wrote back and said, "fine, thank you".  So, what is to come is unknown....  But I think that was ok since he was asking about attoneys.  Obviously there will need to be some conversations about divorce but by email is good because it will be logged and unemotional. 

That's it for now. 
Thanks to all!!!!! 
~Solo 

[Litha]

"You will never trust me and see me how I want to be seen".

OMG! I think he managed to sum up the entirety of the narcissist's emotional range with that comment. It is such a succinct statement of their reality, that's how they relate to everyone eventually.

I broke up with my exN by email. We had not spoken for over a week after our last disagreement, and my therapist assured me that I had made my feelings clear face-to-face often enough. I knew by then that discussion was pointless, his only goal in any conversation was supply -- not communication. And I had had enough of his D&D.

I think you are making a good decision solo. Even getting email and text from him was upsetting for me, but necessary for exchanging personal items left behind. I'm so glad even that is behind me.

[Crystalstream]

Solo, I will be in your shoes soon enough.  I could walk right back into my house right now and pick up where I left off three years ago.  Sitll have everything there.  I wanted to arrange a time to go and get my family pictures and a few things but he hasnt seen fit to let me know when that would be.  I will be paying attention to your posts so I will have your strength when it comes time for me to do it.  I wish you luck and peace.
Crystalstream

[RB22]

Solo,

I handled 90% of my divorce negotiations via email.  When we did meet in person to discuss something... I would run home and type everything out and put it in an email to him stating... that according to my records from our meeting of mm/dd/yy (where we met)  we agreed to...... we didn't come to an agreement on..... the following items were brought up for future discussion....

After the divorce, I dealt only in emails with him.  I would only answer IF there was a question that needed to be answered... and would only answer the question. 

One time I didn't deal with him in emaillllll..... I will NEVER do that again.

Hugs,

RB