From: CZBZ (Original Message) Sent: 10/22/2005 11:37 AM "The situation of alternating aversive and pleasant conditions is an experimental design within learning theory known as intermittent reinforcement/punishment. This process is highly effective in producing long-lasting patterns of behavior which are difficult to change or stop. It is a process which is known to develop the strongest and most long-lasting emotional bonds." New Approaches to Violence Against Women
Dear forum Members,
We have an informative link on our blue space
(this link is no longer active) helping us sort through the curious ability of an abuser to keep us 'coming back for more.' You might want to read through
Skinner's Box this morning in order to protect yourself from those who hurt ya one time...and then give ya a cookie later. Even though we are each unique in our own right as individuals, we are also subject to psychological manipulations that are just a part of being human. Watch yourself if anyone 'shocks' you or 'rejects' you and then only later, gives you a little reward. We get hooked this way.
It is the basic principle of slot machines and those of us who have been 'groomed' by a narcissist, will continue to be vulnerable to intermittent control by those who lure us in and keep us there despite their occasional rejection or abuse. If you feel 'drawn' to a particular relationship, ask yourself very clearly Does This Relationship help ME be the Best I can Be? and if the answer is 'no', then do yourself a favor and avoid the relationship. Do NOT set yourself up for target practice ever again.
Now the fact is, that most of us have lacked the power of choice simply because of our ignorance about abusers. But we have a true opportunity on the WoN forum to examine abusive systems of control and then make a choice for ourselves as to how we choose to participate or not participate in those systems of control (ie: the abusive relationship). But make no pretenses to yourself that learning about Intermittent Reinforcement is all you have to do in order to Get Your Life Back.
We have to See it and discipline ourselves to Stop it the very moment we understand we are caught up in a psychological trap.
Never take a little goodie from someone who has hurt you. Believe what you experienced, love yourself enough to avoid being hurt again, don't put your power into someone else's ability to either 'give you the reward' or 'take it away.' It won't be easy though...not at all! We have already been subjected to intermittent reinforcement and will remain vulnerable for a long time. We gotta get ourselves 'unhooked' and we can only do that by refusing to play Russian Roulette with our Healing.
Love and hugs,
CZBZ
From: flower Sent: 10/22/2005 3:51 PM Czbz,
The title of your thread, "Intermittent Reinforcement: caught my eye, as I remember the terminology of "Intermittent Abuse."
Nevertheless, and reiterating what you posted, this strategy is a favorite with many Ns and that is how they are able to get their partners to break their boundaries. The "goodie" can be flattery or charm from the abuser, controller, N or just plain azzhole; and once the partner displeases this azzhole for whatever reason, these goodies are with held and the partner will often try harder to please or conform.
Hug to you
Flower
From: Dirtgirl65 Sent: 10/22/2005 4:04 PM Whoa,
This is a REALLY important thread. REALLY REALLY. I hope everyone reads it.
I actually studied this scenario in my college "Psych Learning" class. We were studying RAT behavior and dang if I did not apply it to RATS who I was prone to dating.
The N who landed me here was PRO at this behavior. And OMG did it confuse me and keep me hooked for 12 YEARS. Every time I got shut down, avoided, rejected, abandoned, chastized, blasted I would feel
STUNNED.
And stunned like paralysed. I could not believe it. Here was this "nice humble fella" and did he really mean to blow me off in such a cruel way after I just did this HUGE thing for him?
Yes and yes and yes again.
Mentally I could always go "off the N". And intuitively, I swear this bazturd ALWAYS knew he had behaved poorly and lo and behold THE COOKIE would a appear. My mistake was to be emotionally starved for these cookies. The cookies were kind of lame but I frosted them and sprinkled them with huge amounts of meaning and love.
What a DICK this N was.
Also, a lame gift giver. I sent that FREAK presents that were loving and appropriate and sometimes cost more money than I really had. In return I got something related to HIM and I infused this selfishness with thoughtfulness.
In truth, I got nothing but pain, wrapped in a bow.
OW.
No more. Forever.
I have often said that I could've exited the Ndragon if he was consistenly a f*ckwad. It was the NICE fake N who drew me back over and over.
Turns out the actions were real. The words were false. You do not get credit for intentions. THIS FACT IS ONE I HAVE TO REMEMBER.
Thanks CEEZ, big hugs.
Love&Light, dg
From: cheriblossom42 Sent: 10/22/2005 4:23 PM i agree that this is A VERY IMPORTANT thread..
and went back to try and find your post at NPD a while back on this very subject.....
that was my mother.... she would abuse us.. then when we were little puddles.. she would come and love us....
ugh..
my sister said when mom died, with tears. she could never put her arms around mom...... so so sad... and clearly that pattern has continued....
even now... the one man i am attracted to is doing this though we barely know each other... i am a yo yo to him.. or WAS a yo yo.. i am off that ride... next...
thanks CZ....
love cheri
From: CZBZ Sent: 10/22/2005 5:06 PM Thanks DG and Cheri for adding to the conversation about this fundamental basis to any narcissistic relationship...seriously! I'll bet ya (lol) we'll be able to see our own pschological reactions to the narcissist if we give IR a bit of study. Once we learn how this process works, we might be able to avoid doing the same thing all over again when the next situation presents itself...because it will.
Cheri, I tried to find that old thread and couldn't. But this is the original post even though there's no date on it. It must have been at least a year ago when I wrote it or maybe even two?? I used the search engine on my computer to find it, so if I find a link for the original thread, I'll add it, too.
Intermittent reinforcement impacts everyone---especially those of us who enjoy 'pleasing others.' If we hope to please others and win their favor and then think all our problems would be solved (like winning the lotto), then we might still be susceptible to the sneakiness of Intermittent Reinforcement.
If we go back to a bad relationship that hurt us once, we will more than likely be hurt again and yet, we go back anyway in the belief that this time 'we will get what we want'. There's not only a big dose of Magical thinking going on when we do this, but also the magnetic draw from IR. We can't seem to leave the bad relationship alone!
Cheri and I finally 'got it' while studying IR together, didn't we? LOL!!! Love ya, Cheri!
Dear all,
I appreciate the responses to this topic. When I first read about the cycle of violence in my women's studies class a few years ago, I recognized N's verbal abuse and "wine and roses" apology the following day as being abusive. As a result, we had many discussions about change. Of course, I believed he was making an effort to stop himself. I had no idea he was beginning his search for another target! When I read about intermittent reinforcement, I was blown away with the connections firing off in my head.
We should not relegate this information to physical battering. That is where I made my mistake after reading Lenore Walker's book quoted in one of the links above. I just thought, "Well, he doesn't hit me...so I don't qualify as a battered wife." I have since come to the conclusion that N is too dishonest to hit me. And maybe a little bit afraid of the consequences? We do have pretty strong family ties. His control and misogyny was far more clever and deceptive---even to himself. It's been a helluva journey to pick apart thirty years and try to discover just when the trauma bond began to cement our relationship. From the outside, we looked picture perfect...and that is the horror of the whole thing. The pain and suffering was internal where he could not be held accountable and I didn't even know he was hurting me...And his own chances for a healthy life.
So one thing I have thought about in regards to this thread is the first time N acted out of the ordinary and surprised me with his abnormal response leaving me in a state of confusion.
We were at a church dance with many friends and community people we had both known our entire lives. (We grew up near one another in rival high schools). He became infuriated at something I said and immediately pushed me away in front of the entire dance floor---shouting and shaking his head. I was mortified! And soooo confused! What in the hell did I just say or do?
I quickly calmed down and we went outside to discuss what had just happened. Of course, N could see I was not happy with such public behavior and began covering his azz immediately putting all the responsibility on my shoulders for making him jealous...and for him loving me so much he would just die were I to remain angry at his emotional outburst.
I listened patiently and then decided to let the incident drop.
Yea, right.
He was so wonderful the rest of the evening that I thought whatever had happened would never happen again as long as I was aware of his jealousy and didn't provoke it. And one very important insight I have about my perceptions of relality according to my cultural environment is this: when people make mistakes and really truly understand what harm they do to others, they CHANGE! I think I just kept on trying because if he GOT IT..really and truly GOT IT, he would stop his dysfunctional behavior and get over himself. So the Intermittent Reinforcement was only underscored with personal belief in transformation and forgiveness.
That was only the beginning of many years of believing I could make a difference and always expecting the other shoe to drop but never being able to make rational sense, nor predict when it would. His anger was sporadic and without logical reason. Had he ALWAYS been an angry man, we would never have married. But he was only mad every now and then. I think this is what Intermittent Reinforcement means. He would do the most extraordinarily kind things for me...and then, he would become monstrous with his fury. I am constantly focusing on him, trying to keep life as stable as possible in order to protect the kids and me from his anger---or his rejection.
His "eggshell process" only escalated over the years as I tried to manage myself in order for him to manage himself. And pretty soon, I couldn't even see what was happening to me, nor why I always felt responsible for him.
I sure wish I would have known all this many years ago. And this incident has only come to mind as I examine my life with him and admit the trauma bonding connection. This is the only way I can make sense of just why a woman like myself would stay with such a "potentially horrible" man and even suffer near-death when he finally left me. It keeps me digging, though. If there is anything I can learn about what happened to me in order to help my daughter and anybody else's daughter from this kind of abuse, then I will keep that dictionary handy and google the next ten years of my life!
And yes, my daughter did end up in a physically violent relationship which I could not understand. After all, she had such wonderful parents...LOL! I can remember her telling her Dad, "Well, I had a great teacher!" when he confronted her with the truth about her boyfriend.
We have got to do something about this. IR was such an innocent process. Out of trust, compassion, and wanting to help the man I was committed to, I was slowly drawn into a soul destroying relationship. I do not believe he did this intentionally in the beginning. But just like the lab rat, he also learns what works...And that is what makes it even more horrifying, doesn't it?
Anybody else got stories? I would like to understand more about this behavioral process...so subtle and so deadly.
Love and hugs,
CZBZ
From: Cornfield10 Sent: 10/22/2005 6:14 PM CZ: I just realized that the reason I didn't make the connection with intermittent reinforcement for abusive relationships is because I was taught in grad school how to use it for learning and it works very well with students in a positive way. I never thought that it could be used to make people cower in fear and keep them in line.
Of course, that is exactly what physical abusers do because the victim never knows when the battering is going to happen. Oh, my, I am just now putting this all together and understand what has been happening in my life. I have been trained to get through the abuse and survive. That is why I never left. When I started giving myself permission, indeed I thought I should leave, then he was to the point where he needed me to stay. Now I am living in a relationship where I despise him and he despises himself and transfers that feeling to me. What a triangle! I hope many people can read these posts and understand that they must change their lives in order to survive and thrive and getting away is essential.
We are on to a good explanation now and perhaps we can saves some lives.
Keep writing, CZ. Cornfield
From: Dirtgirl65 Sent: 10/22/2005 6:54 PM CZBZ,
This is such an important notion!
You wrote:
He was so wonderful the rest of the evening that I thought whatever had happened would never happen again as long as I was aware of his jealousy and didn't provoke it.
Holy crap. That is the first moment he started TRAINING you to behave so you would not MAKE HIM ANGRY. Because HE was not responsible for HIS feelings but YOU were.
UG UG UG. This is blaming the victim. This is what others do not see in an N rapport. This is where we go CRAZY.
The N I "knew" taught me that I had NO claim on him or his fabulous life. I could LOOK but NOT TOUCH. When I went on my merry way he would return to seduce me back into this compliant WORKER BEE doing his bidding and propping him up and lauding his great work. I would see tiny cracks of, rage, but these were minor it seemed so long as I did not upset the apple cart.
Or walk on the eggs, breaking them to make the shells, which no doubt would CUT my feet.
I can tell you I felt controlled and like everything was on his terms. How did I intuitively know never to bother him. He had me on "don't call us, we'll call you" mode for the whole time I knew him. I was supposed to be grateful for the crumbs he'd toss when he was at a low and needed DG to stoke his fire.
So long as I had NO NEEDS, was the message, I was in good shape.
So long as I had NO EMOTIONAL requirements, I was in good shape.
So long as I NEVER disagreed with what he did or who he did it with, I was in good shape.
When he made bad work, it was "misinterpreted" and "misunderstood". Nothing was EVER HIS FAULT.
So...the pain I was in naturally made me run off. Then the cookies would be tossed my way. Love bombs. Hey--he must like me, I thought. Maybe he is nice and I DID misinterpret everything.
Over and over ad nauseum.
My new motto is THROW THE COOKIE BACK!
Love&Light, dg
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 10/22/2005 6:59 PM CZ,
That cookie example is wonderful! I got it then!
Hugs,
Turtle
From: SuvivorSeaTurtle2 Sent: 10/22/2005 7:09 PM Dirtgirl,
I studied it also and then I was wonderiing... when will I ever need this and the CZ puts it on the board. As, soon as I saw the rat and the box, I knew.I guess the time is NOW.
From: talia Sent: 10/22/2005 7:49 PM Wow...I just read a new addition to the "What Makes Narcissists Tick" website...the article is called "The Rat Game"...here's an excerpt...and the NPD'r in my life did exactly what the author wrote about...
The "n" told me in one of our earliest conversations.."You're good people,talia"...I thought it was weird...in that he didn't say.."I think you're a good person"...like I was being labelled/deemed and placed into the "good people" category...
anyway, just another take or addition to intermittent reinforcement...curious to see if any of you recall this happening to you...
here's the excerpt and the page link...
The treat is some positive judgment they bestow on you. From what I've seen, it's usually a presumptuous judgment that you should reject simply because they aren't your superior or your god. But when that presumptuous judgment happens to be a favorable one, most people don't mind.
Hence, even in flattering you, the narcissist aggrandizes herself at your expense!
http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/Sometimes the flattery was a little over the top?..And I felt uncomfortable...and now I know why..maybe??...I didn't trust it...? I felt on some level..that i was being manipulated...
thoughts? or experiences??..
hugs,
talia
From: Cornfield10 Sent: 10/22/2005 8:00 PM Thinking back, this behavior started in the very beginning of our relationship. There was politeness, and correct social behavior, and opening of doors and such, but there was always an intermittent withdrawal or threatening side of the relationship and I immediately noticed that he did not trust me. So what did I do? I set out to prove that he could trust me. What I did not notice then, and it has gone on for over 50 years, is that he never did learn to trust me, and I passed it off as suffering from rejection by his mother. I didn't see it as rejecting me, just insecurity in general.
I did not feel that I was causing the problem. The arrogance covered up the insecurity. I couldn't understand the term "afraid of success."
Then when the years rolled by, and he got really nasty, blaming me for all his problems, I would blow up and he would be nice for three days. The kids always laughed about it and said they didn't think their father could be nice for more than three days. It seemed like it was penance for his bad behavior, and then he would go back to his arrogant, controlling, neglecting, personality.
Three days was enough to fix the problem, and it was obvious that he felt a little guilty and insecure. In the last few years there has not been the guilt phase, and he always says forget it and start over. Finally I said no, we couldn't forget it . He never learned anything in all those years. He is using the same behavior techniques he learned as a child from his dysfunctional family. Now nothing works for him anymore and he is tired of trying and spends his days avoiding me and being secretive.
He has punished me and that doesn't work for him. Nothing works for him anymore and I have won the booby prize for keeping at a losing battle.
He rubs his head now in a puzzled, miserable attitude and I think his brain is failing to respond to defend himself. I am too much for his declining mind. He probably gets relief from staying away from me. But he can't be honest and admit that there no hope of anything remotely related to what could be called a marriage. His only hope is to do enough to keep me on as a housekeeper and caregiver. So I am winning the war against intermittent reinforcement and he is a shell of a human being who is so tired of the charade and the performances. At least he has a few memorized performances to get him by in public. But he is afraid of public life because he has become incontinent and has some kind of medical problem. He admitted he can't sit throught a church service. He can't get through meetings. His world he created is crashing down upon him. I step out of the way and avoid the fallout.
I know I will be all right now but what a waste of my life. I do have three children and five grandchildren but I suppose I could have beem more modern and had them out of wedlock and been just as satisfied.
We are learning and we will do better as we understand more. I keep the faith.
Cornfield
From: CZBZ Sent: 10/22/2005 8:16 PM It's great to explore this concept with everyone! I tend to think of Intermittent Reinforcement as being more like a Casino as we keep dumping money in the machine in the hopes we'll win the jackpot. We pull the lever and maybe every now and then, a few tokens come rolling out (Golden Crumbs) keeping us 'hooked' because we are absolutely sure that the next time we invest another $100, the big buckeroos will be our reward.
Now another way to think about it is the narcissist's withholding of the prize (reciprocal love) we know he can give us if we only invest enough of our time. He still owns the goodies you see and we keep trying to win favor.
Intermittent reinforcement is a powerful tool for traumatic bonding between an abuser and the victim/target. Their unpredictable behavior keeps us off-balance when their actions make no sense and we become confused. We are confused and HOPEFUL of change. As horrible as it is to realize the impact of nonsensical punishment or withdrawal of favor, Intermittent Reinforcement actually increases our emotional attachment.
Intermittent Reinforcement
by Doug
"I get results when I take control. It is instant death when you hand over "control" to a woman.
"My secret is to give women "intermittent reinforcement." This actually is a psychological phenomenon commonly documented in experiments involving rats.
"The goal of the experiment is to have the rat press a lever as many times as possible. The rat is given a pellet of food after it presses a lever. If the rat gets a pellet every time, it soon gets satiated and stops pressing the lever.
"If, on the other hand, the rat does not receive a pellet every time the lever is pressed, but receives a pellet intermittently, the rat will increase the frequency with which it presses the lever.
"The analogy is fairly obvious: how do we get women to "press our lever" as many times as possible?
"Easy, give her attention intermittently and unpredictably. Don't give her a pellet too often. Take control of when she receives one. Don't be at her beck and call." (Doug has a private website titled SoSauve.com) CHEERS everyone!
Love, CZBZ
From: iamfreebunny Sent: 10/22/2005 8:39 PM Ok, this is really creepy.....
NSpouse used to actually mutter under his breath..."Chronic intermittant reinforcement..."
I used to get the creeps when he did that and I often wondered if it was working on me even though I was aware of it. I guess it DID work.
Creep.
From: Stitchin234 Sent: 10/23/2005 5:33 AM (((((CZ)))))) Thank you so very much for starting a thread and providing information on intermittent reinforcement. In the case with my P..as a lot of you well know..he was a master at this. I kept staying with him, despite the terrible spiritual, emotional and mental abuse..because he always was careful to balance that out with saying the most kind and wonderful and loving things...things I wanted to hear. This kept me in a literal dance with the devil, for close to four years. Knowledge is power..as they say..and because of you and this wonderful forum..knowledge abounds. Bless you CZ..for all of your time, devotion and energy you put into this board, making it an incredibly beautiful site..to come and start our healing journey. Much love to you! Tamara
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