Pained........ Again.

[~Solo]

Does anyone EVER feel that there are waaaaay more N's out there than we ever thought possible?  I'm having one of those days where I feel as though I've been a target of N's.  Looking back over my life, I can see how my father was a N.  Then he later married his third wife who I now believe was also a N.  Then there is my employer who is completely N.  Of course past boyfriends I'm thinking of, also N's.  Then sprinkle in some close friends.  Many of them, I always felt that I had to work too hard to receive love from.  I know that none of you really know me, but can only empathize by way of our connection through abuse from Ns in our lives.  In looking at myself, I can see that my mild nature and lack of the kind of confidence that screams out, "I'm so hot stuff-I believe in myself 110%".  My nature has always called out, "I'm here for you and understand how you feel".  However, I have the physical appearance of being aloof.  That has always been my protection.  I am however, very much a bonder.  I feel completely comfortable one on one and not so much in big crowds.  Hence the choice of profession for me.  I'm a massage therapist.  Anyhow, I'm just wondering if I'm some sort of magnet now considering the abuse I grew up with as a child of a N?

I have seen my N husband three times in this last week after two weeks of NC.  All contact was made by me.  I think I'm trying to show myself that he is utterly evil.  It's working so far-btw.  He has shown less and less empathy each time with touches of blame, FU's (because I refuse to accept his blame) and a wish for me to get out of his life and even move away.  Ha!  It's unbelievable that any person (me) can be so capable of causing so much anger and resentment without even harming him other than not trusting and believing in him.  He claims that I was a wounded bird before he came along (maybe i was) and that he isn't at fault for the hurt.  It sounds realistic if that's the only part of the story you hear.  Then there is the side where he wouldn't have sex with me like normal lovers do, used porn, lied about it, abused me verbally, physically a few times and emotionally all the time (I feel).  Well, as we have realized, when someone needs reassurance and even asks in a nice way, you don't then kick them in the teeth and say, "you should have trusted me, you deserve to be kicked!".

Is this an example of how it becomes ultimately easier for new N's to make us their prey?  We show that weakness and they are tuned in?  They are looking for that "just right" dysfunction that exists within us?  

Am I doomed?  I feel as though I have been growing so much over the last couple months, but seeing how deceptive my N husband is turning (actually always was but now openly showing me) into has caused me some pain which is to be expected, but am I not really growing OUT OF the ability to attract this disordered type?  I believe that I need something to help me to overcome this old wound...maybe time, maybe more Won, maybe a retreat of some sort, I don't know, maybe all of it?  

I see that he is getting ready to turn the tables on me when it comes to others.  I don't want to ever defend my position to anyone.  I have the sick feeling that he is going to portray himself as the victim to everyone.  Afterall, he's portraying that to me and I was IN THE RELATIONSHIP with hima nd know the truth that he has at times admitted to but now denies?!  
It's bizarre and maddening!      

No Contact is the only way and I know it without a doubt.  I have to be able to completely let him go.  I know it's without save and without closure from him.  I must have my own peace and closure through self love.  I must....  

Pained,
~Solo
   

[peartree]

hi solo, god yes ! i remember reading Ns are meant to be 1 in 100 people but me and a friend (whos a counsellor) had a conversation and she thinks WAY more than that !!
its so tempting to go back isnt it to have your fears founded and ur suspicions about their N-ness confirmed. i think u hit the nail on the head when you ended your post with words about self love. as CZ said in an earlier post (sorry i forget which thread) even people with good boundaries can still fall prey to an N. i am married with good morals(a pretty huge boundary)and wasnt too bad in the slef esteem stakes when i met him, yet i still broke that down for him for the sake of his OTT "love" and approval.they see boundaries as challenges etc.
i think the best you can do here is love yourself as hard as you can and KNOW that he is an N and believe in no contact.i dont think anyone is N proof. maybe you can get better N radar etc through knowledge and experience etc but people dont generally expect others to be other than the way they present themselves so its easy to get caught out. i blamed myself for a long time thinking my vulnerabilities and neediness pulled the N in and i created the situation myself etc but thats just N fog. they are responsible for their own behaviour and actions and as the great cheri huber says, "don't be confused about what people say, people will always DO whats most important to them."
you are doing so ace solo,
hugs
peartree x x x

[May]

Yes,  we live in a very narcisssitic society and they are everywhere.

[~Solo]

Thanks Peartree, SEFG and May  

I'm really sad, but sad for me not about him anymore.  I know there will be hills and valleys.....

SEFG:  I didn't realize this was so fresh for you.  My heart goes out to you.  Thank you again for reaching out to me.  I feel as though you understand what I'm needing right now.  I hope to be able to return to you some useful wisdom too...

I know it does not matter what he tells other people.  I know that what matters is my health.  I know to keep my eyes on God and let him take care of the rest.  Keep peace.

~Solo

[Litha]

Is this an example of how it becomes ultimately easier for new N's to make us their prey?  We show that weakness and they are tuned in?  They are looking for that "just right" dysfunction that exists within us?~ solo

Hi solo, it sounds like you are at one of the toughest times (it was for me anyway). The understanding that your mind developed is working it's way into your heart, and you begin to understand at a gut level exactly how evil the N can be and has been. It's like a scene from a horror movie.

I don't believe that it was a weakness on my part that kept drawing Ns into my life. I've read so many stories of strength here, I'm convinced that no weak person could endure what any of us went through. Ns seek out women who are strong enough to maintain a facade of normalcy through their chaos, women who have enough internal fortitude to uphold their false self through thick and thin.

So it isn't strength that we lack, it is knowledge. I misused my strength because I was taught to by my N mother. I can learn to use my strength to maintain true normalcy in my life, and to uphold my own true self. As Holly Hunter said in Oh Brother Where Art Thou:   

I can, I am, and I will!

[CZBZ]

"Is this an example of how it becomes ultimately easier for new N's to make us their prey?  We show that weakness and they are tuned in?  They are looking for that "just right" dysfunction that exists within us?" ~solo


Everyone has wounds from the past and years of maturation before we die. We get enough 'messy stuff' from childhood to keep us busy cleaning up for the rest of our lives. One thing about a dysfunctional childhood, you never have to sit still very long without having SOMETHING to think about! I guess the key is 'working out' what you're thinking about.

With as much leisure time as our modern life allows us these days, it's no surprise that people are thinking about things their grandparents didn't have time to think about. Maybe that means 'we are' the ones who work out the past. A whole plethora of trubbles land in our 21st century laps and we sort and pick and discard and work on what we can, knowing full well that WE aren't any different than anyone else. I never met a person in my whole long life who didn't suffer in some way. Yes, some people had more problems than others but basically, everyone had wounds from the past. Places where their needs were not met as children, or even abuse.

What happens in the narcissistic relationship is that these wounds might be put on hold, delayed from a natural process that heals over time when we are intimate with someone who empathizes with our struggles and allows us to work through our 'issues' in a TrustWorthy relationship.

We become less afraid to confront our pain when we trust that the other person sees us worthy individuals in spite of our struggles and/or problems. So if we have difficulty trusting people when we're adults, an intimate and SAFE partner will decrease our distrust. They will do everything they can to reassure us that the relationships IS trustworthy, that we are worthy of trust, and that our difficulty trusting people is the result of betrayal, not an internal defect.

A trustworthy partner will hold our wounds as their sacred responsibility and they will NOT use those wounds to judge, punish, scapegoat or control us.

A narcissist WILL at some point, use our private revelations to their advantage such as: "You are defective merchandise---toooo F'ed up to have a relationship with anyone." And horror of horrors, any secrets or fears or problems we may have are added to the N's list of reasons as to why we are unworthy of relationship with Mr. or Mrs. Perfecto. This happens most often during the Devalue and Discard period---a horrendous experience for those of us who trusted the narcissist!

The narcissist spots our weaknesses rather quickly and then, because we believe they care about us, we open up even more. We talk about the things we've gone through as children or adults that continue to cause pain which is similar to handing ammunition to a firing squad pointed our direction. At the time of course, we do not realize the narcissist is capable of using our wounds against us, intentionally harming us to serve themselves and most likely: justify their despicable behavior. This is how you can know someone is narcissistic: they will hurt you where they know it hurts the most. Even during separation, people restrain themselves from harming their partner in ways that are 'unspeakable'. There are so many things people could say to the narcissist that we know will knock 'em to their knees and yet, we don't.

Whatever wounds you may have (and we ALL have them, especially in times of social change as we learn more about the human psyche), the narcissist will either manipulate consciously or unconsciously to keep you wounded because this works to his or her advantage. All he or she has to do is behave in ambiguous ways that heighten your fears of betrayal. For example, if you have problems trusting people because of your childhood, the narcissist will do things that trigger your fears. Doing things that tell you he or she is not trustworthy while at the same time, professing undying love and accusing you of having Trust Issues without any rational basis. This keeps us stuck in limbo, right where we're the most controllable and insecure.

Two people who are committed to one another, will reassure each other through conscientious behavior, that each person can face their issues because the relationship is trustworthy. As you can see though, the more we 'grow' beyond the wounds of our past, the less control the narcissist has. When (and this can happen while IN the narcissistic relationship depending on the degree of pathology), people are able to work through past wounds so they are not easily triggered and controlled.

Sometimes however, your healing leads to an inevitable demise of the relationship. You will know just how narcissistic your partner may be if he or she resents your 'growth' or undermines your self-worth with increasingly abusive tactics. You may never have been subjected to verbal abuse UNTIL you started healing. That's because the narcissist's little pokes and jabs at our bruises no longer get a reaction. When we are not susceptible to the narcissist's manipulation of our emotional state, he or she will UP THE ANTE. From insinuation to verbal abuse to infidelity to physical violence (no specific order there, just an example), the narcissist increases aggressive tactics to keep us in our place. And still, even with tactical measures to prevent us from loving ourselves as being 'good enough' people, we continue to grow. To Resist. To Free Ourselves.

If a partNer cannot keep up with our growth, our maturation will incite an ENVY that can only be defined as pathological. Instead of respecting us for what we've overcome, the narcissist will HATE us. That's something you can pretty much count on IF you were in a long-term relationship with a narcissist who does NOT mature overtime.

"He claims that I was a wounded bird before he came along (maybe i was) and that he isn't at fault for the hurt." ~solo

We are ALL wounded birds. Empathic people see other people's 'woundedness' as a call for increased compassion, respect, dignity, and responsibility on their part to Do No More Harm. The more self-disclosing someone is about their intimate wounds, the more other people feel a responsibility to 'protect' or even provide first aid.  

By the way, Solo, I heard a similar thing about 'my woundedness' from my partner because my life is an open book. If it happened, I talked about it and revealed my innermost feelings and struggles. I assumed my wounded birdyness would be a boundary line an intimate partner would respect. NO. It was not. So if you are willing to embrace your wounded birdyness, be sure to scan the horizon for vultures. Because what do vultures do? They eat wounded birdies. Life to the vulture is all about Predator Or Prey.  

Also, another thought occurs to me: a narcissist will see a wound when other people will see 'resilience'. A narcissist will see a wound when other people see strength. A narcissist will see an opportunity when other people see an intimate friend. A narcissist will see a defect when other people see themselves.

And finally, remember that a narcissist will say whatever works to make YOU feel inferior. Don't let him shake your confidence. You are not a wounded bird. You're a human being with warts and scars and scabs like all the rest of us.


Hugs,
CZ

[Julia]

Peartree,

According to Martha Stout ' The Sociopath Next Door', there are about 4 sociopaths for every one hundred people or 1 in 25. The disorder is present in childhood, so this is about one per classroom in schools. This equals  4 % of people, which is slightly over two standard deviations from the average (See the graph - don't freak out from the greek symbols I will explain it..)

I know many of you were probably with Ns who are, or almost are, sociopaths - that is how it was so easy for you to diagnose them and end up at WoN. But regular (garden variety) Ns have less severe traits, can manage to stay married for a decade or more, and are certainly more common. The way I had it explained to me that finally made sense is that empathy and behavior is on a continuum that can be understood (practically and mathematically) as a bell curve. THe curve is a basic tool, and all the interpretation is mine, not from a book, but I am basing it on Martha Stouts 4% socopath number and my understanding of average, standard deviation, and my own study and experience. So this is not hard science, just a way to get a picture of the empathy continuum.


                                                             Empathy Bell Curve



    Hitler   psychopaths   NPD/N-traits    Average       WoN folk   CZ      Mother Theresa
                        

This is a bell curve, it can be used to represent characteristics of large populations, like height, or IQ. In this case we are talking about the entire range of empathy and generosity (incl. lack of empathy and selfishness). Each of us, and our Ns, could be mapped somewhere on that curve, just as each of us could on a curve for height, or IQ. At the far right, in the green near the 3, is extraordinary empathy and generosity (e.g. Mother THeresa). Mother THeresa is probably about 2-3 standard deviations MORE empathetic than the averagely empathetic person. The average person  would be graphed at the very peak (middle) of the bell curve. Everyone else has either above-average empathy (everything to the right of the center line), or below-average empathy (everything left of the center line). So on this graph, blue is approximately average empathy, either exactly average or a bit above or below average, but still a fairly reasonable person to deal with. 68 % of people fall in this range. The reason the blue is the biggest is because 68 % is most people.

Many here at WoN would be in the pink section on the empathetic side (right), average Ns are probably in the pink on the left side,  psychopathic Ns (NPs) are in the green on the left side, or just over the line into the pink on that side. The math is that only 2 % are in the green, only 0.1% at the extreme far edge where the color green is too thin to be seen ..e.g. Hitler, Bundy. If sociopaths (NPs or Ps) are ~4% of people, then they are anywhere from the very far left part of the pink into all the green on the left hand side of the graph.

We can use this curve to guesstimate  the % of people who are NPD or have Serious N-traits. They would be those whose empathy is more than the Ps but less than the most generous definition of average (blue). It is about 12 % of people, or 1 in 8, which fits my basic experience. We can guesstimate the total % of Ns + NPs + Ps (AKA people to avoid...)=15.8 %. I got this by adding 11.7% (most of the pink-left side = NPD) + 4%(green + a bit of the pink-left side= NP or P) + 0.1% (no color-left side= Hitler, et al) = 15.8 %  or about 1 in 6 are either N or P.

Fortunately, this also means that about 16% of people are in the pink and green on the other side of the graph and are real gems, far more considerate, giving, and empathetic than average!!!

In practical terms, this means if you line up 100 people, approximately 68 will have average empathy, 12 will be NPD or very Nish,  4 will be psychopaths, 12 will be very kind, and 4 will be exceedingly wonderful and generous, almost saints.

I hope this made sense and helps some people picture the scale between average person, to selfish jerk, to N traits, to NPD, to MN, to NP, to off-the-charts Psychopath serial killer. Or, better yet, from average, to kind, to very generous and understanding, to CZ, to off-the-charts sainthood.

Where would the Ns in your history map out?  

Julia

 

[SusyP14]

Solo,

I consider my run in with xn, my education in pathology.  Once you know what the signs are, you will see it everywhere.  I am sure in an exaggerated way at first.  You know, the new car syndrome.  You never noticed red Honda Accords before you bought one, and then you see them everywhere!!!

Realizing that your father is either a N or has strong N tendencies just makes everything else come together.  It shows that you had 'special training' for tolerating narc behavior when it was presented to you.  Other people may have balked at the 'one way (their way) aspects of the relationship when it started, but some of us are used to this.  Being with someone very selfish and self involved simply feels normal.  We have to learn a new paradiam to what a healthy relationship is.

[CZBZ]

"We have to learn what a healthy relationship is." ~Susy

yea, what is it? I sometimes think we over-pathologize ourselves without taking 'history' into context. What was a good relationship fifty years ago? Forty? maybe even thirty?

We used to see marriage as a partnership, dividing up the duties and sharing the work load, even if we didn't particularly ADORE our partner. LOL...the main focus was on responsibility to a commitment to 'love and cherish in sickness and in health' and so on. Our word was our commitment and we stuck with a marriage that might not be 'ideal' but we were dedicated to making things work in order to keep our commitment. I might also add for other women of my generation, that we didn't expect love to be a fantasy or even be the center of our partner's attention. The most important thing was fulfilling our duties and loving people as best we could.

Relationships today, are different in the focus on Companionship versus Partnership. Couples do things together, like similar things, focus on themselves and maybe even desire 'entertainment' more than prior generations. Tell me if I'm wrong here because I'm only observing how relationships have changed in my familial connections with younger nieces and nephews who worry more about saving up to go to Disneyland (another reason why they can't have kids yet...too many fun things to do) than saving their pennies to pay for their kids-not-yet-born college education. ha!

I'm not sayin' one's better than the other but I am saying that what people expect from relationships today is NOT what we expected in prior decades. To judge our relationship (or ourselves) by cultural norms of today,might be illegitimate self-blame.

Relationships evolve as people evolve so it's no surprise that relationships are more self-serving today. As usual, that's my big fat opinion which is always subject to change.  


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

Great post, Julia! It's easier to understand concepts if there's a picture! Like the concept of narcissism:

You know, it might be a good idea to repost your message on a thread of its own, too. I'd hate to see it get lost because the graph explains the continuum of pathological behavior each of us is writing about. Would you mind reposting it? This could be lead to a discussion about varying narcissistic traits and how they might change over time (for the worst, most likely!) I'd love to dig in to the topic!



Hugs,
CZ

[Julia]

CZ,

After a lot of modifications, I think the bell curve post is understandable. Take a look at the new and improved version. Is there any way to shrink the graph down a bit?

I re-posted it under 'Narcissism'.

Julia

[CZBZ]

I can shrink the graph on photoshop or it can also be shrinked on photobucket by using the 'edit' feature. Would you like me to shrink it and repost the graph?

Hey, I'll shrink the size right now. I have time.  

CZ

TESTING SIZE:






Do you like this size? If so, you can insert this url between the IMG brackets on your message: http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt188/CZBZ/WoN/BellCurveresizedandcropped.jpg

[Julia]

Thanks CZ,
Julia

[CZBZ]

ROFL!!!

JULIA! I just read your empathy list! "Average---WoN folk---CZ---Mother Theresa"

You have so made my day! hahaha!!! And to think my X accused me of being "so hard to get along with that nobody but him would ever be able to stand me." I remember looking at him like he was a fruitcake which by that point, he really was.



Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

Where would the Ns in your history map out? ~Julia

xn would definitely fall under psychopath VERY malignant sadistic N.   

[Julia]

Suzy,

My N has been diagnosed as NPD. He would be firmly in the pink zone, although some counselors said they saw "some signs of sociopathy". He is not sadistic, nor malignant, but he is completely unable to maintain a normal relationship with anyone, even people who are throwing themselves at him...out of love, loyalty, or even pity.  He eventually misuses their affection to a degree that they cannot stand to be around him. Really that is one definition of Personality Disorder... that their behaviors interfere with a normal functioning life to a great degree.

My dad probably has N traits or low level NPD - so on the border between blue and pink.

Suzy, I am glad you are truly away from your XNP, and that you have learned so much from your experience, in order to avoid that type of man in the future. The good news from this data is that 84% of men are suitable to have a relationship with....someday.

Julia

[SusyP14]

RE:  but he is completely unable to maintain a normal relationship with anyone~Julia

I have forgotten how long you were with Dr. NPD?  I believe you had 4 kids, correct?  That is one of the things that fooled me about xn.  He had a 14 year relationship with ex-wife and mother of his child.

That poor woman and child.  I pray for them daily.

Thanks for always being so gracious about the fact that I got away from him.  I am sure there is some validation that yours has been professionally diagnosed.  Not that I have any questions about xn.  On a blind test, I selected (and have behavioral examples) for everything under NPD and half under psychopath and half under anti-social.

I could actually see his pathology MORE in terms of other people more so then what he did to me (which was bad enough).  When I saw him targeting suicidal women, well does it get any lower then that? 

Your dad and my mom sound about the same in terms of being low level Ns.  My mom definitely has empathy, but tons of entitlement and impression management issues.  Oh well, at least we know exactly where we received our special training for N tolerance.

[peartree]

hi julia
great graph and really interesting thread ladies.
more and more PING and AHA moments !
peartree x x x x

[Legs]

<<By the way, Solo, I heard a similar thing about 'my woundedness' from my partner because my life is an open book. If it happened, I talked about it and revealed my innermost feelings and struggles. I assumed my wounded birdyness would be a boundary line an intimate partner would respect. NO. It was not. So if you are willing to embrace your wounded birdyness, be sure to scan the horizon for vultures. Because what do vultures do? They eat wounded birdies. Life to the vulture is all about Predator Or Prey. >>

CZ!

Oh, YES! That's exactly the same phrase Lucifer used the first week we were "dating" (we "dated" for a year which consisted of me slaving away in his nasty house to make it fit to live in and me cooking dinner for him every night at my house) He said I was an open book. He also talked about "after we get married", "when we get married" within a week of our first "date." *where I cooked dinner for him at my house and he talked until 5:30 in the morning and I think that was when he felt me out on every topic under the sun....education, politics, religion, sex, labor unions, you name it---we talked about it. That way he could be "perfect" in my eyes so I would want him even though he was really a strange and geeky (not in a good way) man.

I realize finally that since I no longer see him as perfect, that I became imperfect and am not able to ever have the wool drawn sufficiently over my eyes to remain in any kind of relationship with him. When I learned of his true self, I had to be thrown out with last week's trash. And this is after "knowing" each other for 32 years. and being married for 17 of those years.


Enough of that...I just want to say how your post resonated with me and all this makes me realize my N-cident was classic and I am but one of many. I am not sure now that I can ever get past this thing in any kind of a healthy way, but right now I am just trying to get through this nightmare of a divorce (where I said Day One I was sure I would be punished for his bad behavior and that has certainly come true.) He seems to be sliding out smelling like a rose but then he has lied and lied and lied. At least I am not longer quite so surprised at the enormous whoppers he concocts. I think he lies so much he actually believes it after a while.

Whatever, I just hate that every single morning when I wake up he is still in my head and he stays there all day long and he is still there when I go to sleep (completely over medicated, but hey.....if it works, it works. Better than no sleep at all which is where I was for the first year) and then I get to have weird and strange dreams about him because he is weird and strange.

<sigh> I guess I am just more annoyed than usual because I just dropped the collaborative (what a joke...I knew from Day One he would NEVER collaborate and in fact, he did just the opposite)divorce and gotten an New Attorney and we are going to do this the old-fashioned way which I'm sure will suck, but that's the only other way out. He would no do mediation either.

Blah, blah and sorry for the rant before noon. That's unforgivable. I'll be so glad when my blood pressure does not (but then I have seen several posts where people did, so I am a trifle confused about what is acceptable and what is not) If you disguise a bad word, then is that ok or not ok? I don't want to get tossed off before I even get started.

CZ, your posts are so spot on for me! I wonder if it's because we are close to the same age...Everything I read so far that you wrote is like: Yes! Yes! Yes! (except for the part where you said it had been five years and you were on the other side now. I still have one foot firmly planted  in N-everland)

Legs, who is wondering how do you start a new topic and how do you mark a discussion read



 

[Julia]

Legs,

You deserve to be mad, and the anger will help cleanse you. Think of it as sterilization by fire, purifying silver (by fire), or whatever metaphor works for you.  I know you have been mad for a while, but you were with him for so long, and were so abused for so much of that.... that the anger is just a huge backlog that has to come out. I was with my N for 14 years, had three kids and basically worshipped the ground he walked on...and I felt like such a doormat. And Foolish.

Please recognize that some of your anger may be at yourself....for staying, for believing as long as you did that he was OK. The good news is that you can be gentler on yourself, forgive yourself easier than you can him... and so the part of the anger that is directed (mistakenly) at yourself can fade as you read about Nism and find out how it is emotional quicksand. Nevertheless, you did drag yourself out of the tar pit, and you will become clean again. But as far as making it through the divorce, I think anger will help you keep your focus and not get washed away in regret, nostalgia, or low self worth.

Julia

[CZBZ]

Hi Legs,


To start a new topic, go to General Board (or any other category you want to post in) where the topic list is located: General Board Topic List

You will see on the far right side, a set of blue tabs. Click on the tab "New Topic". A window will pop-up and you can start a New Thread.

The software will automatically mark which threads you have read once you've opened that thread. If you don't want to lose track of that thread, you can click at the bottom of the thread "Mark Unread" and the next time you log-in to the forum, you will see an New Post Alert next to the title of the thread.

If there are new posts or new topics on the board since your last visit, you should see a highlighted blue butterfly on the category list.  That's an easy way to keep track of new posts without opening the category and rescanning threads.


"'ll be so glad when my blood pressure does not (but then I have seen several posts where people did, so I am a trifle confused about what is acceptable and what is not) If you disguise a bad word, then is that ok or not ok? I don't want to get tossed off before I even get started." ~Legs

First of all, you won't get 'tossed off' for breaking the rules without first dialogging with managers via email. The only time someone is banned is when we cannot come to an agreement about what is appropriate for self-expression while also empathizing with other people's sense of safety and comfort. Rare it is that anyone is banned on WoN though we do ban Spammers on a regular basis. Keeping those folks off the forum is a daily task. (another reason why I LOVE the SMF message board software because we have the ability to permanently block spammers).

As far as swear words, curse words, nasty words and words that are commonly used to abuse victims/targets of narcissists, we have an automatic censoring set-up on WoN. I am not moralistically opposed to swearing since I'm prone to using plenty of swear words myself; however, I received so many earnest complaints from women who had been terrorized by foul-mouthed, loud-mouthed men, that it was more important to respect their sensitivities than use my favorite curse words. Unless someone comes up with a swear word I haven't thought of, the software will censor any language that might be upsetting to other people. You can type the word when you're writing but our software will convert the word(s) for publishing on WoN. I hope that's okay with everybody because believe me, there are times when nothing describes our feelings better than a string of expletives.

If you 'slip' and say something that hasn't been programmed for conversion, I will thank you kindly for adding to my list of Bad Words and then I'll come up with an appropriate conversion.  

I'd also like to suggest that people do not use expletives in the Title Post. If during a written message you just can't help but swear, that's much more tolerable to people than opening the WoN General Board and seeing a long list of "F-the-Rat-Bazturd!" titles. That alone will prevent some of our most vulnerable members from ever participating in our community.


Hugs,
CZ

[Legs]

<<If you 'slip' and say something that hasn't been programmed for conversion, I will thank you kindly for adding to my list of Bad Words and then I'll come up with an appropriate conversion.  >>

<snort> Ok, then though I will try and type in a star whenever I just simply must write the sw*ar word. Now my mother was a true artist at swearing and barnyard language. It was actually admired on her side of the family. Some people there saw it as a kind of an art form, so colorful language is not offensive to me either, but I can appreciate some people not seeing it the way I do.

When I was but a tiny 18 month old, my grandmother said the first complete sentence that she ever heard come out of my toddler mouth was one morning when I was trying to come in the kitchen door carrying a broom crosswise against the entrance, and I supposedly said "I can't get this GD SOB through the door."

I proudly taught my nieces and nephews amusing things to say to Santa and total strangers which none of my sisters thought was as funny as I did. (I had no children, so I had to amuse myself with theirs)

Ok, so I printed out the New Thread instructions and when I have a little time, I will tell the story that precipitated my interest.

Hope all here have a lovely N-less day. I am contacting the highly secret Woman's Protective Service at 2:00 where I will be given secret instructions on how to get there so that I can hopefully join a group of other women to discuss our past hideous relationships. I have been seeing a therapist now for a year, and she insists I was in an abusive situation, but I want to spend my precious time with her learning how to set some boundaries (which I suddenly understand it's not about figuring out what they are....I actually KNOW what they are. I just need to know how to apply them and I may have that part figured out too. Just DO it) and I am hoping in this group to be able to discuss more esoteric things like cognitive dissonance or just hear people who's stories are evn more hideous than mine.

I am at least (for the moment) in a tiny but decent apartment and I have no children to worry about, only two extremely naughty cats, so I already know I have it pretty good.

Legs

[freeagain]

 

pleased to meet you legs !

this is a great place to be and learn about ****s

free

[Legs]

Thanks, Free!
 I just saw something at the top of this page that said:

<<Does anyone EVER feel that there are waaaaay more N's out there than we ever thought possible?  I'm having one of those days where I feel as though I've been a target of N's.  >>

It reminded me of a thing my Papaw used to say (he of the colorful language side of the family) which was:;

Why are there so few horses and so many horse's @$$es? For some reason, that "waaaay too many N's out there" quote reminded me of that.

One thing I've learned (sadly) from all this is that pretty much everyman in my life that I have (well, I hesitate to say intimacy, because N's really can't be intimate) *involved* with is/was an N. I sure know how to pick 'em , huh?

Now I know how to see them coming. And I also know know that they can come in the form of women as well.


So, I'm learning daily and just hoping to come out of this a wiser and stronger woman. Don't yet know if I'll be able to actually get out or not as Lucifer has vowed that he will "ruin" me, so all that remains to be seen. Plus, I know my health is not the best, but maybe when I get finished with the whole divorce thing, it might get better.

Whatever, I'm glad I found this lovely (in beautifully made and maintained) board and it seems as though there are a lot of lovely women here. is it all women or is there a secret sanctuary for men that I just haven't seen yet. Or maybe they're posting right here right now and I just haven't seen it yet.

I am so curious about all those little icons (?) right above my typing..I want to click one and see what happens. I won't click the tulip 'cos Lucifer is Dutch, so I will click the  because he referred to me as a dumb cow once....in an email to one of his OW. A real Prince. I don't see a picture of a Prince, but I do see one of a 


So now when I click send, I am guessing the little pictures will jump magically into my text.


Legs

[~Solo]

First off...Welcome Legs!!  I'm thinking Legs must mean that you literally became "Legs" and left your N!  Congrats 

Just want to say thanks to everyone.  There is so much to quote that was "on target" for me, so I'm not going to do that this time.  As I read last night, my eyes just filled with tears.  It's so validating to read what I do on here.  CZ, you are a wonderful administrator and you seem to have such an ability with psychology!  Do you have any schooling background or just the live-in case study?    Either way, you seem to really have an answer for everything, that comes across -thought out, considerate and insightful.  Much much thanks for this website!! 

As time is going on, I'm more and more aware of how I just didn't have the proper boundaries in place.  I met a woman yesterday that drew me in by her confidence and humor.  As we talked, it came out that she had (for many years) attracted the OJ Simpson types of men (as she put it).  She said, "I was the woman OJ was chasing!".  I told her of my story and she told me that her boundaries were of the etch and sketch variety.  I thought that was a classic way of explaining that they were just not firm and were easily surpassed.  She also explained to me that she didn't have a relationship for twenty years!!!  While that part would have been very difficult to grasp early on two months ago, I now don't feel too terrible about the prospect of not having a lover/best friend for a unknown amount of time although I'd like to think that it will be possible for me to still have a family.  Really though, why would I want to give my most vulnerable self to someone who will just "dig right in" fork and all?  She was a blessing to me, this woman, and is sending a book to me called "letting go".  I think that is the name anyway....  At times, I think that I caused what happened with my husband and I, then I realize that he wouldn't have even stayed had I not had these weakened boundaries since there would not have been a place to operate under cover for him.  He appears to be such a beautiful man and that facade is what threw me so hard, even against myself.  What I have to keep remembering is that he was abusive.  That's the one that seems to help me recover from any self doubt.  Yes, it's a problem that I didn't or still haven't acquired the proper boundaries and I don't know if it's necessarily heathy for me to attract someone who wants to look out for me and protect me (or is it?-tough one to answer-I'm teetering due to women's lib times and evolution and this generational thinking), but I know that it's DEFINITELY NOT HEALTHY to have someone who wants to abuse you!  I think abuse can happen accidentally from time to time, as we are humans and subject to error, but there is a difference when it comes to intentional abuse.  Name calling and physical acting out is definitely abuse that is intentional.  So, that makes it easier for ME. 

One day at a time....

~solo