Original Thread posted October, 2007
From: *** (Original Message) Sent: 10/22/2007 7:47 AM Hi,
I have nowhere to turn or no one to talk to because I am so ashamed of what I have done. I have slept with my XN husband 6 or 7 times over the last two years. He is re-married, therein lies my shame and disgust with myself. I am doing the same slimuy stuff he did to me with so many other women. He "convinced" me that it was just sex and he wanted to "do me a favor" because I have been alone for almost 4 years now. And, being the absolute idiot I am, I went for it.
I'm not sure what is wrong with me and why I make the choices I make. I want and need to end this. I can no longer live with the guilt and shame this has caused me. If my two kids ever found out I would just breakdown. I can't tell any of the people I really trust because of the shame I feel. I feel like I have let everyone down including myself.
Everytime I see him I melt. I don't know where my spine is. I have been here before and simply can't understand why I keep going back to the evil this man spews all over my life.
Am I so bad?
From: Ellie51033 Sent: 10/22/2007 8:14 AM Sometimes, the fear of standing up for ourselves is so great, the only thing we can do is lie down with the N.
Your shame is keeping you tied to your need to continually harm yourself by putting yourself in his arms. Your guilt is letting you off the hook of standing up for yourself, and your children. If you 'can no longer live with the guilt and shame this has caused me', then replace the guilt and shame with the truth. Ask someone for help. Reach out for support -- find a professional who can help you. Change the guilt and shame to the resolution and the commitment to doing what is right, for you and your children.
Right now, he's got you hooked. He's on his game. He's doing his thing. He's living life as an N and you are part of his web.
Perhaps the reason you keep going back is because he keeps asking you. He has absolutely no need to change anything. The only person you haven't let down is him -- he's getting everything he wants.
Let go of the shame and guilt and turn up for yourself with tender loving care. Get strong. Get forceful. Get committed to having the life you want -- without him. Ask yourself, What's in it for me to keep hurting myself with him. Get into therapy. Get help.
When married to him, were you able to resist him? Just because you're divorced and he's remarried doesn't suddenly make you capable of resisting his attempts to hold you in his web if you haven't yet done so. Every time you have sex with him you are reminding yourself -- this is all I deserve. Do you truly believe that?
He is never going to let you go. It's up to you. For the sake of your children, and yourself, get out your scissors and start cutting the web. And the first step is -- No Contact. Limit any conversation to the children -- if at all possible, don't talk to him directly. Put really firm boundaries in place -- and stand behind them and for them. Stand up for yourself. You deserve it.
It will be hard. It will hurt like heck. It will pull you apart -- but standing up for yourself will be so much better than letting him walk all over you. You had the courage to divorce him -- fear is the opportunity to be courageous. Bring that same courage to bear in breaking this off -- do it for you. You deserve it.
And let go of asking the question -- am I so bad. It has nothing to do with being 'bad' or 'good'. It has everything to do with being a victim of a narcissist and the tapes you run in your head telling you -- he is what you deserve. Asking questions like that keeps you in the victim's place. You're judging yourself -- you can't change what brought you here. You can change what you do from here on out.
You deserve so much more than he will or can give you. And he's not going to do anything about you getting the peace of mind and loving heart you deserve. It's up to you.
We all do things we're ashamed of, Nita. The gifts come when we let go of our shame and stand up for the right things by doing what is loving and caring and true for us.
Ellie
From: *** Sent: 10/22/2007 8:50 AM Thanks so much Ellie. It feels good just to let some of this out. I am going to end this and it WILL never happen again. I told him that the last time, begged him to respect me on my wishes. He lays on that slimy charm, flirts a bit, gives me a compliment or two and that's it, I'm back.
Every single time it has happened I have hated it, loathed it in fact. The sex is OK and there is some physical need met but it's so not worth what comes after. I'm going to find my strength starting today. I do talk to him quite a bit because we are tied by not only children but some work issues. Absolutely no contact would be very difficult but necessary contact only would certainly be doable.
Being divorced in a small town and being as old as I am leaves little possiblity for meeting anyone. I have used my lonliness as an excuse and still want some justification for how anyone could throw 16 years of marriage and two great kids to the side I guess.
You are so right in all you have said, thank you for taking the time to care.
From: CZBZ Sent: 10/22/2007 2:08 PM (((***)))
I'll be back online in an hour. In the meantime, stand in front of your bathroom mirror and tell yourself, "I am a WoNderful Woman of Worth." Say it three times and don't break your gaze when you do.
Love,
CZ
From: freezerburned Sent: 10/22/2007 9:01 AM ***,
Your message is almost identical to several that I have read in the past. You aren't the first and sadly you probably won't be the last.
I believe the real problem is that he has sucked your soul out and you are subconsciously trying to get it back.
The N gradually takes over our lives and minds and when we separate from the N we have nothing left of our selves.
What you focus on expands. Focus on the things you were interested in before the N pushed them out, and slowly but surely the obsession with the N will fade.
From: CZBZ Sent: 10/22/2007 5:25 PM Dear ***,
No, you aren't so bad. I've read other people's messages who actually support 'sleeping with their X'. It seems the big difference for you is that you feel it's morally wrong to do that. I don't know whether it's Right Or Wrong but your message seems to say that you believe it's "wrong."
It's not exactly easy being celibate post-divorce. I can see how people might be led into having sex with an ex.
Maybe if you sit with your 'shameful' feelings right now and get a good grip on how bad you feel about yourself, the next time he seduces you, you'll remember how bad you felt. Kinda like a horrible hang-over after partying the night before. If the hang-over gets bad enough (consequences), it can be a huge deterrent when the desire to drink takes over the ability to 'think'.
It is like an addiction in a way though not completely. Sometimes we use the best vocabulary we have to talk about experiences that are hard to describe.
How do you feel when he asks you to have sex with him? Is there a 'hope' that he'll love you again? Maybe not. Maybe there's a hope that you CAN have sex without the hang-over. That would make things easier, wouldn't it?
From what we're learning from Helen Fisher though, when a woman has an orgasm, she releases oxytocin which leads to feelings of 'attachment.' This is how we fool ourselves that our logical brain can think it's way out of our bodily reactions. You simply can't stop yourself from attaching if you're having sex with the ex. That means you might go through withdrawal again accompanied by a terrible case of the 'shames.'
I have no answers as to why you keep going back except to say, maybe there are none. Maybe it's as simple as wanting to have sex and he's willing. A really bad match on Earth is a woman with a conscience and a maN who has none.
Check out some of Fisher's links. She's very clinical about Romance but sometimes it helps to be blunt about the big O and a woman's attachment reaction. She says, "Don't copulate with people you don't want to fall in love with!"
And one more warning, watch yourself for depression. This is a notorious time of year for people to feel depressed. Sometimes when we are depressed, we do irrational things trying to alleviate our 'bad' feelings. Unfortunately, we might end up making ourselves feel even worse and thus we are trapped in a destructive cycle!! Have you noticed the months when you slept with him? Maybe there's a clue you'll be able to find as to why you agree to his propositions. When we're feeling 'down', we are not thinking very straight, Nita. We'll do impulsive things and regret them later---almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I recently pushed a message about Depression to the top of the board. It's normal to be depressed after divorce though---but maybe most of us don't even realize we are.
CZBZ
From: honeybearII Sent: 10/23/2007 4:46 AM ***,
There are a lot of us on this board who continued to stay with Ns KNOWING what they were up to. I was one of the worst. I continued in a relationship with my now exNH for over a year and a half even after having proof of his infidelity, and knowing he was sleeping not only with me but with other women.
Why we do this is a very individual thing. For me, I thought just as you are thinking. I am old (I turn 62 this week), I have lved with this man for 32 years and I have never known anyone else, I will never find anyone else, the sex is "comfortable" if not passionate and then I was desperate to try to get him to SEE me rather than just use me. I look back on that period and while it disgusts me to think how desperate I behaved and how needy I was, I also have deep compassion for that woman. She doesn't exist any longer, though, because I finally found the strength to walk away.
And you know what? Life has blessed me beyond my wildest imaginings. I am remarried to an incredibly loving man who knows HOIW to love, and I have been surprised by joy in so many ways. But you know what I had to do first? I had to give up my attachment to the N both in my head AND my heart and realize that he was NOT a nice man and he would have continued to use me if I had allowed him to. He really did not want me to leave him, but I knew that if I was ever going to find myself again and stop feeling degraded and diminished, I had to get away.
I found a really good therapist who helped talk me through my OWN issues with continuing to be "married in my head" even when the marriage was obviously ov er. That sick attachment is part of the N-game and it is very, very hard to break because it has been nurtured by them for years and years.
You are worth so much more than a toss in the sack and a clandestine affair with this man. If you won't break it off for yourself, end your relationship with him for the sake of your children. When you find the strength to stand on your own two feet and claim a life that is N-free, you will be amazed at what the Universe offers you. My finding a partner was purely serendipitous, but I had also realized that I could and DID live a life of joy by myself and it was so much better with NO ONE than with someone who made me feel so degraded.
I wish you the best. And no more beating yourself up over this. Just live each day making good decisions and soon you will realize you have moved on from this idiot.
Honey
From: eyes_up Sent: 10/23/2007 5:29 AM ***,
straight up & in one line my thought on this matter is this. You are re-enacting a cycle of helplessness and shame.
Look inot your past and see if you can find the places where shame & helplessness were a part of your history. By attempting to deal with these emotions via the N you will remain in that loop.
So, i consider your actions not to be nearly as important as your feelings behind the actions.
Ask yourself why you have chosen to enter into a place that produces shame and guilt for you. Really, because the chances of duplicating this are strong...this is my sense or opinion there of. What I mean is that you may still find a place in your life that will create the same sort of tensions with or with out the N. So, It is not about him...it is about you.
What this means is that you will have to dig a little deeper...it is not as easy as...i will stop doing this wit the N..it means you have to make contact with your shame and your feelings of being helpless enough not to make a conscious decision/effort to choose in the direction of your own safety and health.
We all know that narcissists are not healthy and they certainly are not safe people to be around. I'll bet it is possible to find out why you are drawn to reenact this "schema".
When we reenact we are looking to heal, to finish something that is still active and waiting to be addressed. It is much deeper then just a roll in the hay with a unfruitful person. You are much more than that.
Love,
eyes
From: *** Sent: 10/23/2007 6:34 AM Thank you all. It helps just to get this out.
I think most of the "shame" comes from the fact that I have been untruthful (not like me at all) with all those I love. My sister, especially. She has always been my best friend. I can't bring myself to tell her that I have slept with my X. In fact, I have led her to believe the opposite. That he has pursued me and I have resisted. She told me she "respected me for doing that." I feel lying is one of the crappiest things anyone can do to another person and here I am doing it to the people I love the most. For what? For him? The last person I should be doing anything nice for is him. After being dumped like yesterday's garbage, crapped on, spit on and left for dead I am still being nice to this jerk?
If I look inside myself hard enough maybe I am looking for attachment. But I truly DO NOT want him back. I fear that the most. My worst nightmare is his new wife finding out about the affair, leaving him and them he will be knocking at my door. The door I worked so hard for. This house is MINE. I made a secure place for my kids to stay and flourish. I have done it myself. He can never stand when I do anything for myself. He always thought HE had to be the one doing anything of merit. I was only a bystander. I HAVE come a long way and I don't want to go back.
CZ, I know the feeling those women have about ending things by sleeping with their X. Now, I know he is doing the same slimy, under-handed things to his new wife that he did to me for years. That it wasn't me who failed the marriage. it wasn't me who created tension at home in front of the kids, it was HIM and his narcissism.
I see SOME things so clearly and the SEX is the foggy part. The intimacy that I crave. I fear that I will be too old soon and love will just be a memory. So, I go back to the evil well for WHAT??? A roll in the hay for a minute or two? And then I am left with all the guilt.
Past shames? Yes, there's a big one. I got pregnant after our second child and was very happy about it. He wasn't. He pressured me into getting an abortion. And like the proverbial lamb led to the slaughter I followed his wishes. That shame has stayed with me like nothing else has in my life. I have come to terms with it now but it is part of the shame I have always felt because of what I did. After the abortion I found out he was having an affair with a waitress. He was so "in love" with her he didn't know what to do about me having another baby.
What did I do? I took him back. Ugly, ugly, ugly.
I am worth so much more.
From: freezerburned Sent: 10/23/2007 9:57 AM ***~
If your X "smells wonderful" and just being near him gives you a stong feeling of calmness and wellbeing, let me know and I will tell what I know about that.
From: Irishrose576 Sent: 10/23/2007 12:15 PM Hi Freezer,
I'm curious what you mean by your post "smells wonderful", sense of calmness and wellbeing.
Irish
From: freezerburned Sent: 10/23/2007 4:08 PM Irishrose~
Here is my standard reply about this subject: Oxytocin makes it difficult to leave a bad man
If you are wondering why you (or your friend) puts up with a "bad boy" in spite of outrageously bad treatment, it could be because he is an "oxytocin producer" (they smell *Soooo good*) oxytocin is addicting to some women, and it takes two months away (no letters or phone calls either, and even email is iffy) from the guy before it wears off enough so you come back to your senses, and wonder how you could be "so in love with" someone who treated you so badly.
Why Good Women Stay w/ Bad Men
http://www.drpatallen.com/excerpts/goodwomen.htmOxytocin the hormone of love
http://www.oxytocin.org/oxytoc/index.html
From: eyes_up Sent: 10/23/2007 4:56 PM think we all do things tht are of leser mind...but to develop that kind of awareness requires a very special effort and interest.
I see my short comings every day and I ask myself..Why did I settle with my self doing a half backed job. Or maybe i miss and lie to myself. Who knows. We all have a right to keep some stuff personal. Don't forget that Nita...really think about why you have to lie???Sleeping with a married man...Shame??? Well at least you feel something. I am pretty sure it doesn't cross his mind one way or another. I'll bet you are not the only one and if you are not...how does that affect your decision to continue. I still mean what I said about the cycle above. No one does this sort of thing simply because they want to have sex. You need to cut the chord and deal with the pain. I dealt with the loneliness and I finally came out the otherside...far better than if I continued to fool myself. Is it easier to deal with shame than what is on the other side?...that is another question. If shame is easier then what you imagine it to be like completely with drawing then I can see how you wouldn't do it. But remember nothing is as difficult as we think it is going to be...especially if we fear it. The fear causes the difficulty not the actual process. I am brain storming her to give yuo an idea of how I actually work through stuff...what goes on in my own head.
Love,
eyes
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