Original message posted June 2006
From: dream_keeper65 (Original Message) Sent: 6/19/2006 10:06 AM There has much discussion here lately about what Ns expected of us and what we found ourselves doing to please them, but not necessarily ourselves. So if you are in a relationship, what is acceptable?
If someone likes to watch porn does that make him a bad choice? Is anal sex a normal part of a relationship? Is using 'toys' and other implements a normal activity?
Where on earth do you draw the line???
From: SadieWu Sent: 6/19/2006 11:05 AM You know Dream, I was so naive when I got married. I had never been with a man before....and I guess technically, I still haven't been with one. Because I don't think a real man would need to use sex as a way to beat up a woman. It never occurred to me as a new bride that I would need to think about what my limits would be, or what would be normal activity. I've grown up alot in 20 years, most of it the hard way. I guess this is what I think now. I would never judge anybody else for making a list different than mine, because I think sex should be a very personal thing. But here's a few things on my list, and why.
1) I still like the term "Making Love". Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I think sex should be about expressing love to someone. Sometime before I die, I would like to know what that feels like, to make love to someone who loves me back, since I obviously never had that with an N. I don't ever, ever want to be in bed with anyone again who is just using my body for sex. 20 years of that was enough, and I don't want to ever disrespect anyone else by doing that to them. (Even though, let's face, most guys probably wouldn't mind so much, as long as they got sex out of the deal....Ha!)
2) I never want to be told "You're Damn good, lady", again. I would like to hear someone use my name, or other terms of affection. No more profanity or vulgar language in the bedroom. That should be a sign, in my mind at least, that it is not real love. Vulgarity is not the language of love.
3) Anal and Oral Sex, as well as sex toys are an absolute no for me. Bad, bad, memories. Maybe I could get past them, but I don't want to have to try. I guess the real point is this, I don't want to be coerced into anything ever again. If someone really loves you and respects you, why would they want to put you in that position, or degrading you and forcing you into something? Love-making, by its very definition, shouldn't it be about expressing your love for someone, wanting to GIVE to them, not about someone wanting to TAKE from you? Therefore, as intimacy builds, as trust develops, whatever happens between 2 people who are in love should be a mutual decision, and as long as it is about GIVING to each other, and you are BOTH comfortable with it, I think that's the secret.
4) Anyone who does pornography is out. Period. The mind cannot vomit the images, and even so called "soft porn" in my opinion, is devaluing to women. I firmly believe, although I could never prove it, that that is where my N husband got some of his ideas for devaluing me. He just was not that create on his own. I think that once those ideas start into their minds, it feeds their fantasies. Maybe it's old-fashioned and idealistic, but I want to feed their fantasies. I don't want to constantly be competing against the air-brushed, kinky things they've been viewing, especially as nature ages me. It's not a fair comparison.
So I guess that's it for me. Enough of my soap box.
Sadie
From: CZBZ Sent: 6/19/2006 11:49 AM Fabulous question, Dream! I'm sure there will be as many different limits as there are women on this forum. One thing about it, we women seem to grow into our sexuality as we become more and more comfortable with our selves, don't we?
One thing that makes your question difficult though? For those who have been married or partnered with a narcissist, we might have felt 'uncomfortable' with them (and perhaps not with another man) because we sensed something was 'off.' But then, we might blame ourselves rather than understand it's his inability to connect emotionally that leaves us dissatisfied.
I knew my X was not connecting with me in the intimate manner I needed. But our sex life as far as the physical part goes, was fairly normal and satisfying. Until he found another woman. Once she entered his life, I suddenly became the Prude. hahaha I am no prude, that's for sure. The problem was: he saw me as his bad mother. Makes it rather difficult for a man to get it up if he sees his wife as his Mom. And if he sees me as his Mom and has no trouble getting an erection, well then, that's even worse.
So if you are in a relationship, what is acceptable? That depends on what we define as a relationship.
If someone likes to watch porn does that make him a bad choice? Yes. But I'm kinda funny that way and don't like seeing women 'objectified' nor men either. After a few years on message boards, I can't help but make a connection between Porn and Abuse. Too many women have written about their partner's penchant for 'soft porn' turning into BDSM behavior, wife-swapping, threesomes and all sorts of situations 'she' felt terrible about afterwards. It's almost as if the N is driven to make her hate herself as much as he does.
Since sex is a boundary-less experience with another person, his abuse leaves her with deep deep wounds. She might blame herself unmercifully for a long time before she can understand how normal it is to WANT to please our partner.
Is anal sex a normal part of a relationship? Gosh, I hope not. It does seem to be something women write about if they've partnered with a Narc though because he wants to penetrate her anally...to the point of pestering or even forcing her.
Perhaps it's a way to demean her femininity? Just guessin' and wingin' it here. Maybe he's afraid of her vagina eating his tallywacker. LOL...OK...I am trying to be serious. Narcissists do seem to have a fear of 'engulfment'. I remember a tribe we studied in Cultural Anthropology that made women cover their mouths if they laughed out loud. Seems it scared the men if they saw her open mouth because it replicated the dangerous vagina with teeth. LOLLOL!! I can see my X viewing my vagina as a dangerous place to hang out. He ended up being financially responsible for two kids and has to pay lifetime alimony. Yes. The Vagina is a dangerous place for a man who fears responsibilities afterwards.
Is using 'toys' and other implements a normal activity? Don't know. What kinds of toys?? My Little Pony?? A Jack-in-the-box? I've heard bad stuff about this too if he is the one Promoting and Insisting on Toys. Some women have said their only means to an orgasm was with a 'toy', though. Guess I can't answer this one.
Where on earth do you draw the line??? Ummmmm....I guess my bottom line, is a long-term friendship before dropping my panties. That might mean marriage first---I don't know for sure.
It's probably difficult for people to know where to draw the line if they are fearful of rejection or abandonment. They might 'think' it's mutual participation until they find out it's not.
These healing forums occasionally discuss how far women have gone to please her partNer to the point of oral sex numerous times per day and all sorts of things. They think this is how to keep him home, but you know what??? I think that the more we allow ourselves to be objectified and sexually manipulated, the more the narcissist/abuser hates us. I don't know that, but it seems to be consistent with women's reports of what happened to them after they relented and participated in sexual activities they felt uncomfortable with. Like threesomes. Like sex with other women while he watched. I've read it all and it's never resulted in the outcome they hoped for. Never. Unless of course, she was only in it for the F**K, or thought that was all she wanted. Most women coming to forums for help though, were intent upon creating relationship with their partner even if it started out as nothing more than a sexual romp.
Helen Fisher teaches college groups all around the globe telling them about their 'chemical reactions' to sexual behavior. She says right up front that if we don't want to fall in love, then we ought not have sex. I guess a woman releases oxytocin during sex which facilitates bonding to her lover. I will find a few of her links and add them to this thread. By reading her research about Sex and Attachment, it's easy to see why a woman might not INTEND to fall in love with the guy, but just can't stop herself once the chemical lab starts pumping out the 'glue.'
Love,
CZ
From: dream_keeper65 Sent: 6/19/2006 1:46 PM Sadie what you wrote is pretty much exactly how I think it should be. But over the years I have been called a prude, moralistic, old fashioned, fridgid, self righteous....all I might add by a MAN.
My ex N once told me that all American women demanded anal sex and it was a forgone conclusion that it was going to happen.......obviously trying to make me feel inadequate for not being too keen on the idea!
Dream
From: SadieWu Sent: 6/19/2006 3:55 PM Dream,
You're going to laugh at how naive I am, but every time my N asked about anal sex, all I could think was, "Isn't that what gay men do with each other?" I wondered what on earth he was doing with me, as a woman, if that is what fascinated him! Maybe it's because it was all about objectification, or the lack of intimacy makes them need to try somehting new to keep their excitement level up. Maybe it is because he knew the thought grossed me out and so he thought if he could get me to submit, it would be more degrading for me. As easily grossed out as he was by things like dirt, etc., I could never figure out why he would want to put his symbol of manhood in THAT hole anyway.....as we all know what comes out of it....YUCK!
No, I don't think every American Woman demands anal sex. I am an American woman and I never did. And I have lots of American women friends who I know don't. If there are some American women who do, well, I think it goes back to what I said before...a MUTUAL decision...no coercing, and no making someone feel less or inadequate because they aren't interested. That is not an expression of love. It is an expression of manipulation for your own gratification.
Sadie
From: eyes_up Sent: 6/19/2006 5:06 PM I suppose I draw the line when and where I want to. It could be a day to day thing. Non commital on tastes...they change.
Porn seems so stupid I do not want to watch it and I do not enjoy the auto piot mentality that goes along with it. I didn't have to date any one to find that out...I just go with my insticts. I watched a semi soft porn scene in a movie with who else but richard gere, can not recall the title...it seemed rather sexy to me...but befor the scene came I had an idea of a situation and the love between the people...thier was a story...so for that I can appriciate. In any case...movies do not invoke me to duplicate experience. It is just a symbol of the exerience, something universal. Watching it once is enough. Watching other people is boring...I would rather be on the make, in real life, myself. Live voice real smells &
3-D atmosphere. Theri are plenty of visuals that I find erotic but they are not the cliche' images. I am glad that not all men are into porn.
I do not think anal sex is a normal part of sex. If it is, I am going to be abnormal. If I am diviant for this so be it.
Sex toys are what ever you want. They could help people out. I am not into toys, I like nature. I do not like plastic, I want the real thing.
So I say do what you want, do what pleases you.
Do not do things you do not want to do just to please another unless their is garenteed reciprication.
I did things, not sexual, to please the N but what did it matter, he only continued the same bullshit with out acknowledgement. It hurt and then it just got stupid...
overplayed redundant & uncreative. Aside from the pain of rejection I really got bored.
love,
eyes
From: flower Sent: 6/19/2006 6:51 PM Dream_keeper,
For each individual, I don't think there is a definitive answer. I think limits vary depending upon a person's age, upbringing and emotional state of mind.
I will say that I am old--over 50 and I was brought up Catholic. It took me a long time to get over the words in grammar school during religion class, "Thou shall not have unclean thoughts about one's body."
Can you image a rather inocent and shy nine-year old girl asking herself, "What do they mean by unclean?" I had a hunch that they meant the body was dirty and shameful and I had NO clue
about sex.
All my sex education during junior high consists of when they took the girls out of class and into the auditorium to show us those moronic movie clips about menostration---with the talking cartoon eggs traveling through the fallopian tubes. I don't think the word, "sperm" or "male" was ever mentioned. LOL!
Fast forward to my early teen years where all my mother said to me was to tell the boys "NO" and not to let them touch your breasts or any place else. She had me scared sh*tless about ending up in a unwed mother's home. What I learned about sex was from a girl my age in my neighborhood or from reading books that was not in the high school library. It wasn't until years later that I learned why this girl was so popular with the boys in high school, LOL! and I thought she knew this from her older sisters.
I was brought up in an age when sex was considered special and nowadays, sex just seems to be a recreational sport, especially among the younger crowd of teens and twenty-somethings. The media has played a big impact people's sexuality, even if they don't realize it. As a society, we are becoming increasingly narcissistic with prime time commericals for Victoria Secret and cleavage-showing Moms in prime time sit-coms.
No, I am not a prude by any means, but it all boils down to objectification of women. Women are not being valued for themselves, but for the brand names they wear and the cleveage
they show. Do you see commericals with men wearing speedos or
bikini underwear? Why aren't men objectified?
For awhile, I was somewhat buying into the sexual liberation during my "hormone havoc" days. However, now everything is starting to point south and with an ass that is starting to look like a half-inflated basketball, thongs are NOT sexy. There are some nights I go to bed so tired from a rough day at work, my husband could whip it out near my face and I would still fall asleep.
At my age, my priorities have changed. Let the young ones have their sexual acrobatics and their tantra. It was always my intuition that reminded me, "If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't." And that mantra prevented me from getting into too much trouble with a certain N some years back. I still had vestiages of my Catholic upbringing.
It wasn't until I was in my 40s that I realized that certain sexual acts and fetishes were not fantasy only. I lead a sheltered life, LOL!People actually did this.
What I've learned being involved in domestic violence and in the mental health field, is that a woman who has been sexually abused
through NO fault of her own, is more prone to falling for a N's sexual manipulations. I am not saying that a woman who was not sexually abused will not go somewhat beyond her comfort zone, it is that chances are they will say "NO" much sooner than a woman who was abused in childhood.
At some level, I understand the stimulation/sensation certain people get from fetishes and paraphilias, but from what I have determined,
the one who is submissive, which is usually a woman, ends up getting physically hurt and often succumbs to execessive use of drugs and alcohol to emotionally numb out and often go through some sort of emotional trauma
It seems that after all these years, the more things change, the more they remain the same---Women still pay the price.
Love, Flower
From: dream_keeper65 Sent: 6/20/2006 3:11 AM Flower I had a mental image of you being around 32! I dont know why because you write with so much wisdom and clarity, but you come across as youthful too..does that make sense?
My maternal Grandmother ended up in a unwed mothers home when she had my mother, she spent the rest of her life in a assylum, institutionalised, her only crime was having a child out of wedlock. So I do understand the fear that your mothers threats must have instilled in you...it was a very real possibility, perhaps not for your generation but certainly for your mothers.
I guess the issue here is to find a happy medium...as women we have so many more options, birth control, being able to raise children alone etc, but what an enormous price we have paid.
Thank you Flower.
Dream
From: PracticalJude Sent: 6/20/2006 7:48 AM Where on earth do you draw the line??? Dear Dreamkeeper,
As I've thought about your questions, I've come to the conclusion that it's not about where we draw the line, but more of knowing what our "bottom (no pun intended) line" is and sticking to it.
I think we've got to know ourselves well enough and love ourselves enough to say "no." I've also learned that there isn't a man on earth that will ever again shame me into thinking I wasn't "sexually evolved" enough for him. If I'm ever told that again my answer will be, "you're absolutely right...I'm not the one."
Although my willingness to listen N's stories about cyberstalking and going for the "concur" was abusive in itself, I learned that some men are more interested in learning about your bottom line than they are with the sex, itself. Sex was not as big of a turn-on as the knowing that he could control, manipulate and therefore change his victim's "bottom line."
I'm not sure if knowing what all of our bottoms lines are is necessarily helpful to you. Where we draw the line has nothing to do with what you desire sexually, emotionally or spiritually. If I told you I liked a little pain with my sex you may judge me, as I might judge someone that said that to me. But, don't we all end up in emotional pain after we've compromised ourselves, just so they think we're as "evolved" as they are? Or, maybe we've compromised ourselves so they want us again, and again.
As flower said..."It seems that after all these years, the more things change, the more they remain the same---Women still pay the price."
Or putting it differently, women end up with the "short end of the stick" (another bad pun) every time they change their bottom line for an abuser. After my personal experience, I draw the line when my legs are more open than my mouth speaking the truth from my soul. I remember telling him..."you've taken everything else, you're not taking my soul."
It's our gift to ourselves to know our bottom line and not deviate from it...no one gets to take that from us.
Love,
Judy
From: UnlimitedHoneybear Sent: 6/20/2006 8:38 AM There is no doubt in MY mind, that if you are involved with an N, sex becomes a part of the games they play. With ex-N husband, sex became about control. Even his ex-OW, when I spoke to her, said, "Honey, it was NOT about the sex. Ever. With him the sex was unfulling and over in about 30 seconds". And yet, she also told me that "he taught her about sex". So while, on the one hand, he apparently pushed her out of her comfort zone, it was, in the end, all about HIM>
That was exactly my experience with him. I definitely went into marriage extremely naive and he was, up until my most recent relationship, the only man I had ever had sexual relations with. Before we were married, he pushed me to be experimental in a kind of conventional way, and though he never asked me to do 'kinky" things, he also totally disconnected emotionally from the whole experience with me. It was frustrating for me, and my inexperience just had me accepting that whatever the problems were they were, of course, MY fault, LOL.
Boundaries are things we set for ourself. While on the one hand healthy experimentation is fine if both partners go into with the attitude that if one does not like it or want it that is the end, on the other hand we have to know for ourselves what are the deal breakers. For me, anal sex is a dealbreaker. Not going there - ever. I have come a long way in my acceptance of what "normal" sexual practices are, but I also know that there are things that make me extremely uncomfortable and the "ick" factor is waaaay too high for me to even experiment on any level. End of discussion.
Know yourself. Be open minded, but also comfortable with just saying "no" to things that make you feel degraded, used, or manipulated in some way. And that does not necessarily mean "exotic" practices. My sex life with exN was pretty conventional, but I felt used, degraded, and pretty much like a blow up doll with a vagina. The inability of an N to connect emotionally and intimately can leave you feeling totally void and even though the ACT of intercourse might bring you pleasure, the lOVE making is nonexistent. If I had been more experienced, or been wiling to trust my instincts, I would have known YeARS ago that something was terribly wrong when after sex I would roll over and cry.
HOney
From: obstical Sent: 6/20/2006 8:54 AM I think normal is what you are comfortable with. I also think porno objectifies women. My ex preferred porno with sex but during an evening with candles massage music good food and music he enjoyed himself but really was not nearly as turned on as he was with porno. It mademe feel dirty but I thought it was 'normal'. Now I believe normal is what makes BOTH people feel sensous loved and respected. O
From: eyes_up Sent: 6/20/2006 9:40 AM Dream I think practicle Jude put it right...
"...some men are more interested in learning about your bottom line than they are with the sex, itself. Sex was not as big of a turn-on as the knowing that he could control, manipulate and therefore change his victim's "bottom line." Anything and everything can become the tools to control.
Situations or ojects what ever. The N I knew didn't have much luck with sexual control...I can count the times on one
hand that he tried working this on me with in the sex department...to say I wasn't open minded or some such non sence. I repeatedly replied, "I have my preferances"
One thing for sure, You have got to know what you want & enjoy.
In anycase this didn't stop the control...the same tactics targeted, directed & applied to different areas of so called relationship.
What ever your weak spot...that will be the defining point for the appropriate N to be attracted. The toys will be different.
Perhaps, as in my case, mental.
So it is not the toys rather its about the one using the toys or manipulating the toys. The language is the same. When N's meet up with boundaries how ever solid or soft they may be
this is their place to play.
Also this thought comes to mind. If we haven't a boundary in a certain area N's use this like the back door to get in and reap havoc. This is just a sudden thought.
So although I know I wouldn't be into sex toys or A-sex...
do not get fooled that these are classic N-stunts. As it was said above it is not about sex, it is about control.
So while associating your previouse experiences with what an Narcissists brings to the table...their are whole bunch more control mediums...like anything and everything. That's why people say quite often...every word from his mouth is a lie.
Thanks for a cut to the core thread, I enjoyed every ones responce.
Love,
eyes
From: LynnS2274 Sent: 6/20/2006 9:52 AM "Where on earth do you draw the line?"--Dreamkeeper For me, Dream, it is not so much a question of Where as it is a question of When. Having rules about what you will or won't tolerate and what you will or won't do is certainly important, and on this journey we come to know what those things are based on our own self-knowledge and discovery of what we value and who we are, but the path to that discovery for me came through realizing that I need to listen to myself when I'm put in a position of knowing that I'm having my boundaries pushed.
The set of "allowables" may be a bit fuzzy for you now as they no doubt have been for everyone who has gone through this experience, but they will come. I also think that boundaries in general are always growing and changing and solidifying because we keep being challenged in new ways throughout our lives that require decisions. So, though the cognitive knowledge of what our boundaries are may be part of it and knowing our values is critical, being able to identify the feeling of having those boundaries pushed, for me, is where it really starts. It feels uncomfortable. That discomfort is my signal that a boundary is being pushed because that discomfort creates a second feeling immediately if I really listen to myself and that feeling is...Fear.
So, when do I draw the line? I know I need to draw the line most especially when I am afraid of drawing it. That's when I know without question that a boundary has been crossed that I'm afraid to enforce for fear of many things that all boil down to, as CZ said, abandonment or rejection. That is our primal fear. If I say, "No"...what am I afraid will happen? Perhaps someone will think less of me, someone will reject me, someone will get their feelings hurt and like me less. It's outer directed and valuing someone else more than myself on the surface, but in reality it's all based on pleasing someone else in order to keep something I value, so while it may look like a "giving" thing, it's really a self-protective thing. Those are all abandonment fears. However, if I do not say "No" simply because I am afraid of the consequences of saying no, and I squash my own discomfort in order to assure the comfort of another, in the end, I will have abandoned myself and what I need and I have come to know that's a much greater abandonment.
That is not to say that we should not take into account the feelings of those we care about and value them in equal measure to our own. Of course we do and should. It is also not to say that sometimes our perceptions are not faulty, because indeed sometimes they are but that's ok. The people who love and respect us will be OK with that and help us work through it. I think it is very important to honor our feelings and be gentle with ourselves as we heal, to learn that it is the loving thing to do to say, "No" until we know for sure what it is we need. I think the hard part is valuing our own feelings and needs in equal measure to those we care about and being able to recognize when someone else is not valuing ours.
So...on a very basic level, it's not "Where" or "What", but "When" for me. When my discomfort is based in fear. When I am afraid to alienate. When I am afraid I will be judged and rejected. That's been the starting point for me. That's when there's a boundary that I know in my soul is too important to cross and if I let it be crossed I may please somebody else, I may under it all think I am hanging on to something I need or want, but in the end, what I lose is greater, because I am losing me by not taking loving care of myself.
Hugs,
Lynn
From: dream_keeper65 Sent: 6/20/2006 10:40 AM I met a couple years ago, friends of my ex husband. They went done the three some route. She went to bed with her best friend and her best friends husband. Both marraiges were over within a year.
She and the husband decided they liked it better with one another and left the wife out.
On the few occasions that this topic has come up, I always recall them and that boundary is firmly established in my mind. As Jude mentions 'bottom lines' that would defiantly be one of mine. Monogamy is very important to me and I would not want another man in my relationship, if my partner desired another woman I would think it was because I wasnt enough for him. Either way it would be over.
So HEY! I just found a boundary!!!!!! I knew I had one in here somewhere!
Now I need to work on other issues and decide where my 'bottom line' is on other things.
MY head is so Prozaced up half the time that I read some of the posts on here and cant quite get my head around it all enough to write a response!
Dream
From: CZBZ Sent: 6/20/2006 11:50 AM "So HEY! I just found a boundary!!!!!! I knew I had one in here somewhere!" All Right! Now we're getting somewhere! You don't agree with threesomes and you insist upon monogamy because you are willing to be monogomous yourself. There ya go. Mutual reciprocity. If your partner needs another woman to fulfill HIS needs while ignoring yours, then you are willing to end the relationship, right?
Maybe the next question we can think about is: What Is a relationship? When has enough trust been established to even consider increasing our vulnerability to 'falling in love' by engaging in sex?
I linked an article by Dr. Helen Fisher and intend to compose a nice synopsis of her work either today or tomorrow. But as she warns everyone: "Do Not Copulate with anyone you don't want to fall in love with.
" Copulation itself might mean we end up staring in the face of a partner we don't even like when the hormones stop flowing and flooding The Stupidest Part of our Brain." hahaha!!!
I don't know when people might judge enough time to have passed, before engaging in a sexual relationship---but it sure sounds like we're playing with fire if we don't know someone very well...nor they Us.
Love,
CZ
From: flower Sent: 6/20/2006 2:11 PM Dream_keeper,
Well, thank you for the compliment! 32? I wish I knew back then what I know now, LOL!
Yes, it makes sense. I have been told by people that I am "young for my age." LOL! I think I am, though, young-at-heart with the pragmatism of a tribal elder Native American woman--at least when I stop to think and don't let my mouth get in the way, LOL!
What I think my mother was trying to scare me, not just because of pregnancy, it was she knew the psychological implications of having sex at a younger age, but she was not able to discuss it with me.
When I noted that "Women still pay the price," I was not just commenting about pregnancy. For women being prodded or manipulated into sexual activities or practices that they don't want to do, they pay the price of lowered self-esteem, feeling used or abused and often are abused under the disguise of "a different kind of loving." No matter how the media portraits a new era of liberated sexuality, there is still a double standard.
I could not articulate any better than what Lynn had to say about boundaries. For me, it is about the "yeeck factor" and thinking of consequences. For example:
There is considerable mention of anal sex and I am not making any moral judgement, just consequences. A colleague recently told me about his niece who ended up having rectal surgery. She allowed her boyfriends to do that so many times that it stretched and ruptured her rectual area. If that surgery eventually doesn't work anymore, the next step is to have a colon surgery, where a bag will be attached to her side and from then on, she will be defecating in a bag. She is only 25!
From what I read and researched, Ns like to do fisting on a woman. The vagina was not meant for that. A baby's body goes from in to out, not from out to in. I have read about women having to have emergency surgery after that done to her. When a maN wants to try this, you can bet your last dollar, he is renacting his hatred of women.
You ask:
When do you draw the line?When something makes you uncomfortable and/or when there are consequences to that something.
Love to you,
Flower
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