My brother (and SIL) is a narcissist

[audrey76]

Here is my story... and the latest.

Okay, so my brother has never been actually diagnosed with NPD except by my 2 therapists trying to get to the heart of why I was in bad relationships in my 20's.  I've read the DSM and a few books on it and they describe my brother and my relationship with my brother to a T.  He is an older brother and I used to worship him, which he obviously liked.  A few years ago, after much therapy, I stopped playing the game of worship - I would speak to him politely (he lives in a completely different state, a few thousand miles away), but wouldn't engage in the "You are so obviously superior, dear brother" game. 

Not surprisingly, he got mad.  He sent me a nasty email saying that he thought we were brother-sister at one point in time, but we are no longer.  He was sorry for the pain he caused me.  He releases me from all obligations to him.  He hasn't called or emailed me in 2 years (I think he blocks my emails).

So, in a way, I'm thinking great.  I'm free at last.  Right?  Enter: Parents.

Parents find this whole thing very upsetting.  They knew that brother was a terrible child, but think he is a reformed adult. They can't understand why, since I'm an adult now, I can't just ignore his narcissism.  (Dad: I know that Brother and Wife don't ask me any questions about me. I accept that that is part of who they are.).  I understand that they are upset and I feel bad, but I can't be responsible for restoring family balance at my own expense.

New Problem: I'm getting married this summer. I invited Brother - who still won't talk to me.  Parents wanted me to write a note saying that I really hoped he could make it, which I refused to do.   He's actually coming (not sure why? Any ideas?). The latest request: Mother wants Brother to walk her down the aisle and Mother wants me to ask Brother. I refuse.  If that's what Mother wants - and I respect that and I will allow it - she can ask him herself.  Some choice quotes: "No one can abuse you without your permission."  "You just don't seem to care about family enough to go the extra mile. I'd like to see you go the extra mile to reach out to your Brother."  When I told her that Sister-in-Law told my Sister that Brother was just respecting MY wishes to not speak (which is a total lie and Mother has seen the emails that prove that this is a lie), Mother says: "well, that's just what happens when two people disagree. They see things differently."  Parents went on a trip and would email one of us to say they were ok (and that person was supposed to forward to the others). Brother didn't forward the emails to me.  Mother: "well, did you forward the emails to him?" Me: "of course."  Mother: "Well, we all have our positives and negatives." 

Parents have been with me to talk to my therapist about this whole situation.  They have discussed it with me at length.  But they just "disagree" (as they say).  So, I'm left with the impression that my parents think that I'm totally overreacting.  Note that they don't really approach my brother about it. The first time they did "it was too painful for him to talk about." and last time they visited him "he was too busy."

I realize that my situation is different b/c my N is a Brother, but please tell me some of these reactions - both by the N and other Interested Parties - are typical!!!!!  And that I should still stand my ground....
THANKS!
-A

[CZBZ]

Hi Audrey and Welcome to WoN!


I have moved your first post to our General Board so other people can respond. I hope you're okay with me doing that? Sometimes people miss seeing messages posted in other categories...


Hugs,
CZ

[audrey76]

oh sure - no problem.

[CZBZ]

Dear Audrey,


Sometimes parents are more concerned about 'maintaining the family image' so they don't have to confront their lousy parenting. As long as the kids pretend things are perfect, parents are able to feel good about themselves. It isn't about the kids, per se. It's all about protecting the parents. This is how the narcissistic family deals with problems---they cover them up. They force kids to deny their own feelings and make sure Mom and Pops feel good. It's a collusive relationship that continues to 'silence' the real victims in the family. I guess you're supposed to be a willing sacrifice, Audrey. Something that doesn't sit well with us once we claim our right to be seen and head and yes, respected!

I'm sure your brother would like to be seen as the 'forgiving' and 'reformed' guy. The guy who is doing what he 'should' to make amends which of course, makes you out to be the 'bad guy'. If he can forgive and forget, why can't you? This is a very narcie thing to do of course---he can appear to be magnanimous and you look like the unforgiving sibling who can't get over herself. Such a horrible space to be in!

Narcissists don't have the deep emotional feelings that other people do. He can probably go to your wedding and feel good about himself (which IS his goal!) because he is not conflicted with contrary emotions and memories or guilt or remorse or any of the deep feelings we have to deal with. He can't even relate to your efforts working through such powerful emotions because he doesn't have them. Some people are just good at 'repressing' or even 'denial' and will keep up the pretenses to avoid conflict. Narcissists aren't doing that, not really. They simply do NOT feel the emotions other people do which makes them appear to be 'strong and rational' when we're emotionally overwrought. So perhaps he is willing to come to your wedding and even walk your mother down the aisle (what a great guy! NOT!) because it makes him look so GOOD, you see.

My question to you though is this: can you still enjoy your wedding ceremony and relax without thinking about your brother? Are your emotions stable enough to see your brother without being triggered by him? By anything he says or does? If your brother still triggers your emotions and distracts you from this special day, you might reconsider your invitation. I know this is very hard to do but in the case of the narcissistic family (which it sounds like you grew up in), you must take care of yourself.


Hugs,
CZ

[audrey76]

You said a couple of things that were really spot on:

1. You are right about him appearing to be the good guy. I think it has already been forgotten that I issued the invitation to begin with.  One of my aunts sent me an email: "Your brother is coming!" That exclamation point really made me mad.  It's like the students who show up to class and ask for extra credit.  I think he's already twisted things in his mind (and he's probably telling others this too) that he is the victim and I am the purp.  Is this common??? Literally, when we were growing up, we used to say "Poor, poor Brother."  I don't know why that expression started or when we applied it exactly, but it was a phrase that was used constantly in our household.

2. My parents - mom especially - get upset when we "take it outside" the family and tell others.  A few years ago, I realized that the reason why I tell so many people things (and I do!) is because I get NO validation from my family.  My therapy guy says that this is common in children of alcoholic or abusive parents.  There is one kid who points out the Elephant in the room - dad is a drunk - and the other family members, who don't want to admit that, punish that child instead of the drunk father... it wasn't until my late 20s that i realized : my family is NOT normal and it doesn't have to be like this!!!  My mom will continually defend my brother's violent behavior as a teenager as "that's what boys do."  But my friends didn't have brothers who punched holes in walls... hmm.....

3. Re : the wedding.  The thing that makes me SUPER mad is that no matter what, it's about Brother.  If he comes: "oh, isn't it nice that Brother came." If he doesn't come: "Where is Brother? That's weird."  It frustrates me that he wins. 

Luckily, my kind and loving and supportive Fiance reminds me constantly that the day is about US and there are armies of people there who think that (basically everyone except for Parents and a few gossip-y family members).  I can't lie - it's annoying and i feel like I invited him to make my parents happy.  But I'm 8 million times better than I used to be and I think that the other people there and the excitement of marrying the love of my life will prevail.  I will make sure it does!

Note on Fiance: I have dated probably at least 3 N men who were just like Brother.  I finally got tired of feeling bad about myself.  I feel good about myself when I'm around Fiance.  I think that's the new Litmus test for a relationship

I want to read more about this.  Are there good, scientific books? I read the Wizard of Oz book which was fantastic. Where do you get your info from, CZ?

[SusyP14]

Hi Audrey
 
Welcome to the board.  CZ is the one of the smartest women on planet earth, IMHO, and she has he deep reserve of Narc knowledge which seems to seeps from her pores.  On top of that she always seems to know exactly what we need to hear.  She is quite remarkable that way.  Just think of her AS the Wizard of WoN 

I don't know if my brother is a Narc, but I do know he was never a supportive brother.  Other girls on the bus were protected by their older brothers, but my brother was tormenting me and encouraging others to do the same.  That said, I like that my brother lives 3,000 miles away and I barely need to interact with him.  My therapist told me the same thing that xn had the same energy as my hostile brother.

I come from very much an 'impression management' family meaning that it was very important for the outside to look OK as opposed to whatever was going on in the inside.  I think what confuses me the most about your post is that your mothers wants YOU to ask your brother.  WTH is that about?

[Litha]

I think what confuses me the most about your post is that your mothers wants YOU to ask your brother.  WTH is that about?

I agree Susy, that is nuts.

Welcome to WoN Audrey. It sounds like you are making every effort to be respectful of your family and their feelings on YOUR special day. They are not reciprocating, which makes your efforts downright heroic.

Listen to CZBZ, and listen to your heart. If they are not willing to respect your wishes, why are you working so hard to respect theirs?

 
Litha

[LettingGo]

  Audrey, so it appears that you bro is the Golden Child even on your special day. Is it more important to make the Kingdom of Narcissism (KON) happy or you happy? It would be great if you could do both, but you can't. That's what it is like living in the KON. No matter what you choose, the Ns & their enablers will be not be happy--that you can count on. So all that stress will be pointless.
What do you and your fiance want to do? Then do it. It is your day. If others don't support or understand that this is your day and your right to choose, then that is their problem not yours.

Nsibs suck in a very N way. I recently discovered, w/the help of WoN that my Sibs are Ns not as high level N as the Momster, but Ns none the less.  Do not let the Ns  on your special Day.

[Julia]

Audrey,

Welcome! Wedding flashback...17 years ago. A friend asked what she could do to help my nerves on the big day.... and I asked her to come over whenever my mother was with me. If I seemed upset, she was to provide the excuse to take me elsewhere. Fortunately she didn't have to do much.

If you are indeed having your brother come to the wedding, you could consider doing something like this for your parents and, of course, Brother.

Julia

[audrey76]

I think my mother wants me to ask my brother so that we'll start talking.  It's the same reason why she wanted me to write him a note saying that I really hoped he'd come.  He says I don't want him there (which I don't - but again, Poor Poor Abused Brother) and she thinks it's my job to reassure him that I really do want him there. To which I say, "WHY WOULD I WANT HIM THERE?"  The hilarious thing is that my Grandfather was abusive (I only met him once) and my mom didn't invite him to her own wedding. Not sure if he was an N or depressed or what.  When I try to point out the parallel, I get: a) my Grandfather was worse than my brother and b) well, I couldn't invite him if I wanted my mother to be there (I think that they had some provision in their separation agreement).  So, it wasn't HER choice, but my grandmother's. 

@Julia.  Yes, I really do have a small army ready for me, including the Best Man who is a big guy   I'm also going to prep the photographer and the wedding planner.  There are certain pix that I'm fine with - a family pic or two - but I'm thinking Mom will try to suggest some sort of siblings photo or one with us and my brother.  Not happening.

@LettingGo.  Yes, my bro is the Golden Child no matter what.  I had a therapy lady once tell me not to try to come between a mother and the runt of the litter. 

At the end of the day, he's evidently definitely coming.  It's just a matter of managing him - though I think he'll be perfectly pleasant and polite.  He would lose a lot if he showed others his anger.  The thing that is frustrating me right now is my parents active refusal to stand up to him or admit that he is less than perfect.  They keep saying that they don't want to "take sides."  My sister says this too.  And they all act like I'm a little bit crazy when I bring up therapy or what I've read, etc.  Like "there she goes again with her wacky therapy talk. Wonder if the therapist tried to convince her of this wrongfully."  Like I said, I even let my parents meet with my therapist (he is no longer in the country so I don't have someone right now) and they still believe that Brother has "grown out of the old behavior."

I'm hitting my head against the wall to try to get them to listen and believe me.

[Litha]

I'm hitting my head against the wall to try to get them to listen and believe me.

It's one thing if Nsib tries to slam your head against a wall. When you start slamming your own head against a wall -- well -- stop that! 

Seriously though, you will never get them to listen or believe if they don't want to. I suggest you stop wasting your energy on them. Your choice is to face the truth, but not everyone will be as honest, strong and brave as you are. Accept that they have made their choice, and their choice is to deny that Nsib has a problem.

We believe you, because the details of your story resonate with what we have experienced. Your therapists have believed you, your fiance believes you. Focus on the validation you are getting, invest your energy there.

Okay, so my brother has never been actually diagnosed with NPD except by my 2 therapists trying to get to the heart of why I was in bad relationships in my 20's.

That's pretty typical. Narcissists are seldom diagnosed because they believe everyone else is the problem. They are perfect and therefore don't need therapy or diagnosis. It's their victims who seek therapy (see Narcissism Victim Syndrome for details).

[SusyP14]

The thing that is frustrating me right now is my parents active refusal to stand up to him or admit that he is less than perfect.  They keep saying that they don't want to "take sides." 

I'm hitting my head against the wall to try to get them to listen and believe me.

My therapist once told me that the sickest person in the family controls it.  Seems pretty obvious in this case for sure.  When your family say they don't want to take sides, what I hear is:  We are pretty sure YOU will not walk away from us, but he will, so we are going to appease him.

Sometimes we just have to accept what is going on.  My threapist told me:  Your mother is never going to be the mother that you wanted or needed.  She is what she is, so you might as well accept it and quit wishing for her to be different then she is.

[LettingGo]

The thing that is frustrating me right now is my parents active refusal to stand up to him or admit that he is less than perfect.  They keep saying that they don't want to "take sides."  My sister says this too.~Audry

This is a

they don't want to "take sides."-- What they are telling you is very revealing on their part. The is N-language that can be decoded. Sides is plural, meaning more than one, so they are saying, I don't want to be on both sides. I don't want to be forced to treat you as equals, because if I were on both sides I would have to see things from both points of view. Instead, I want to stay on one side, the Golden Child's side, so shut up and put on and make peace at any cost.

My therapist once told me that the sickest person in the family controls it.  Seems pretty obvious in this case for sure.  When your family say they don't want to take sides, what I hear is:  We are pretty sure YOU will not walk away from us, but he will, so we are going to appease him.~Susy

I did recently walk away from the KON recently and guess what? I wasn't missed. You think that all your efforts to keep the peace at all costs will be appreciated, but they are not. You are replaceable. You are just a source of NS for those in the KON.

When you ask those to consider your point of view and they don't, they are demonstrating that they don't consider you. 

Your family is N-chanted by your Nbro and they are denying what they see w/their own eyes. They will NEVER see what you see because they are N-chanted. Sounds like you could use a laugh or two right about now. Check out the following link, ask yourself what role does your bro play, what role does your family play and what role are you playing?
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7029.0.html

[CZBZ]

"I want to read more about this.  Are there good, scientific books? I read the Wizard of Oz book which was fantastic. Where do you get your info from, CZ?" ~CZBZ

First of all, I'm glad you asked this question. We should all ask questions like this on any forum or community we join. Ask the leader, facilitator, board moderator (whatever the title) about their background. Where they learned about whatever their expertise may be, and what their motivation is for running a cybercommunity.

We're taking Good Care of ourselves when we dare to ask questions.

Too often, people join a group and become attached to board members before realizing there are problematic differences between themselves and board moderators. And like the narcissistic relationship drawing us all together on this forum, we make ASSUMPTIONS that are false, based on our own intentions. I plan on putting a short bio on our new-and-improved message board because sometimes people are so traumatized, they don't know what questions to ask. And sometimes (speaking for myself) we are so relieved to find answers to our confusion that we don't ask the right questions either. (maybe we fear the answers?  )

I started learning about NPD in 2002, working as an assistant manager on the mega-NPD forum and from there, organizing WoN in 2005. The bibliography to WoN is extensive. ha! I love reading so that has helped me keep learning about unhealthy narcissism AND especially: narcissistic families.

I'm assuming   you would like a list of books and research articles from which I have gleaned a fairly decent understanding of the narcissistic continuum? I have read nearly every pop-psyche book out there along with some heavy-duty theoretical books and research data-type books by Elsa Ronningstam. If you want the facts and nothing but the facts, you might want to start with Ronningstam's book, Understanding and Diagnosing the Narcissistic Personality.

On WoN, we have an Information section on Narcissism and Psychopathy. You will find tons of research articles listed in the narcissism section, most of them 'scientific', not easy reads. I try to add documents whenever they become available on the web because the Internet is how most people are learning about pathology.

We also have the Tool Shed which covers current stories in the news but the Information section is where you can go to find statistics, theoretical articles and a few easier 'reads' and reliable articles. I usually read everything that is posted in our Information section and try to be open-minded about psychologist's differences of opinion. You'll see a variety of articles which is how it oughta be on a learning forum like WoN.

This is a short list of my favorite books on narcissism:


Understanding and Identifying the Narcissistic Personality by Elsa Ronningstam

Narcissism by Alexander Lowen

Narcissism by Neville Symington

The Mirror Effect by Drew Pinsky

The Narcissism Epidemic by Twenge and Campbell



And these books bring the focus to ourselves while also describing the narcissist:

Wizard of Oz by Eleanor Payson

Why is it Always About YOU? by Sandy Hotchkiss

Loving the Self-Absorbed by Nina Brown

When you Love a Man who Loves Himself by Keith Campbell

Freeing yourself from the Narcissist in your life by Linda Martinez-Lewi

This book is about sociopaths but it's also applicable to narcissists: Women Who Love Psychopaths by Leedom and Brown


Maybe what I need to do is create a list of recommended books and separate them in 'stages'? I would not suggest reading any book that delves into the partner or child's neurosis or co-dependency. Not in the beginning. It is far too easy to get stuck blaming ourselves when the narcissist is STILL projecting fault and blame on other people. Until we are away from the eroding narcissist, we do much better reading about the pathology itself. We must learn about the narcissistic pathology to Ground Ourselves in Reality. Understanding how this disorder manifests in someone we love can start cutting the emotional ties (or enmeshment). We need a breathing period when we can make the connections between clinical research and our personal experience and when things start to click, we need to be 'free' to express ourselves. Our sadness. Our grief. Our anger.

I have been talking with people for many years now and there's a pattern to our healing. For people in long-term relationships especially (and that includes children of Ns), it may take a very long time before their anger can subside. Anger is a natural defense protecting us from disrespect and abuse and it can take months or even years for some people to feel safe enough in their own skin to work through their anger and let it go. (another reason why it might be important to find a group of people you feel connected to so you can continue working on yourself even after the relatioNship has ended.)

I tend to believe that eliminating the narcissistic fall-out is a life-long adventure.  


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

"Just think of her AS the Wizard of WoN " ~Susy, WoNderwoman

That's because I grew up in Oz and it's taken fifty years to claim my rightful place in the Emerald Palace.  

"At the end of the day, he's evidently definitely coming.  It's just a matter of managing him - though I think he'll be perfectly pleasant and polite.  He would lose a lot if he showed others his anger.  The thing that is frustrating me right now is my parents active refusal to stand up to him or admit that he is less than perfect.  They keep saying that they don't want to "take sides."  My sister says this too.  And they all act like I'm a little bit crazy when I bring up therapy or what I've read, etc.  Like "there she goes again with her wacky therapy talk. Wonder if the therapist tried to convince her of this wrongfully."  Like I said, I even let my parents meet with my therapist (he is no longer in the country so I don't have someone right now) and they still believe that Brother has "grown out of the old behavior.""

First of all, if your narcissistic brother has not been seeking consistent therapy, especially when the therapist is opening doors he'd rather not enter, he is NOT getting better. As narcissists age without therapeutic intervention, they become worse. Worse meaning: permanently self-centered and grandiose even if their behaviors go 'undercover'. Though you will see websites proclaiming 'cure' for narcissism, there is NO short-term cure and from my research, a narcissistic disorder might ameliorate but it never disappears. Not like the flu or a cold.  

If you have people who are aware of the situation and supportive, you can get through this. Sometimes it's easier to avoid the DRAMA that can also RUIN your special day if you refuse to let your brother attend the ceremony. These are the kinds of hard choices we make, none of them good but some better than others. Sounds like your entire family will defend him if you tell him he can't show up.

Our first reaction to people's attempts to silence or control us is to Educate Them about Pathology. It almost NEVER works. When you confront The Truth, everyone in the narcissistic family will defend themselves against YOU, the truth=teller. You've heard the old cliche, right? "shoot the messenger". Well, that's your situation right now. Instead of seeing the truth-teller as the means to changing unhealthy family dynamics, people become angry instead and as a result, demean/criticize/discount YOU instead of facing the truth. That's just how it is.

Still, we plant a little seed and hope it will grow at some point. It might. You can't know that it won't. But you can't force seeds to grow, nor can you force people to stop denying the truth. You know the truth and you probably also know that the truth really does set people free. Getting people to step out of the prison after you've unlocked the door, is Up To Them. They get to choose.


Hugs,
CZ

[audrey76]

This is all GREAT.

A few things that I have to say:
1.  I would normally go to my therapist to "check in" but since he's out of the country, I'm not sure I feel like explaining this all to a new therapist...  This also underscores the need for choosing a good therapist who can give you what you need at the right time.  my first lady (when i lived somewhere diff) was much more focused on me and getting me through my anxiety and self-doubt.  My second guy is actually a child psychologist which helped put my family dynamic into context. 

2. <Check out the following link, ask yourself what role does your bro play, what role does your family play and what role are you playing?>
I am looking forward to doing this.

3.  <if your narcissistic brother has not been seeking consistent therapy>
haha!  my sister said something to my sister-in-law about Brother and Me going to therapy to repair our relationship.  Her response?  Brother would NEVER do that!

4. I like the list of books. I have about 10 Amazon windows open right now. Thanks! I am over-educated and have a healthy skepticism of pop psychology.  I like research and I can read and understand it. So, that's why I asked.  There are a lot of unqualified people out there.

5. <<My therapist once told me that the sickest person in the family controls it.  Seems pretty obvious in this case for sure.  When your family say they don't want to take sides, what I hear is:  We are pretty sure YOU will not walk away from us, but he will, so we are going to appease him.>>

HAVE YOU MET ME???  This is exactly right!! EXACTLY.  My sister said it the other day : "Parents have no idea what Brother will do and they don't want to approach him."  Frankly, they are worried he'll get mad and stop them from seeing their grandchildren.  They won't admit it, but he's capable.  I remember an incident in HS where Mom was trying to stand up to Brother and Brother (who is 6'2" and was muscular at the time) stood in her face and said "why? What are you going to do to me?  Try it. Try and hit me." Mother had to back down.  What I keep telling them is by not "taking sides" they are making Brother's claims legitimate. I make all kinds of good arguments about how he is not an adult, even providing them with evidence in particular situations.

6. I did not know about the Kingdom of Narcissism and was unprepared that changing my role with my brother would not only make him mad, but would have implications for my entire family.

7.  I know I'm hitting my head against the wall with my parents (and my sister to a lesser extent).  I can't seem to stop.  And I know that I'm making it worse by trying to poke my parents and not just letting them go.  It just bothers me and I have to let it go. I feel so bad for them - they weren't bad people, they were good parents and I don't want them to feel bad for not protecting me against my N brother.  They are old and my parents want nothing more than to have a nice family.  They didn't want this, they didn't ask for this. 

Back in 1999, my ex-boyfriend who played a significant role in my life, committed suicide.  I was 23 - much, much younger. Maybe he was N, maybe not - he had some of the same qualities as my brother and was obviously depressed (as is/was my Brother).  One of my first thoughts was relief.  And later on I thought "I would have done anything to make this not happen." which was quickly followed by the thought: "No, I wouldn't have done anything.  I broke up with him to save myself. And while I didn't want him to die, I am glad I didn't give up my entire self to try to save him." While I have been in these bad relationships that mimic my Brother, there has always been a little part of me that didn't go 'all the way' - I broke it off with the Ns.  I stopped myself from going to college in the same town as my brother because deep down I knew I needed to get away. I think that's the inner strength & confidence that I'm going to draw on to stop hitting my head against the wall with Parents and get through this wedding ok.

Phew.

[Julia]

Audrey,

My stbx N is depressive, and a diagnosed N. I am sad to say that I did give up my entire self (for 15 years) trying to save him and raising our three little girls on my own as well.

I applaud you for breaking away, finding real love, and moving forward with your life. This is what we are all trying to do, and we CAN help and support each other. You sound very strong, and knowledge will only add to that power.

One of the primary things that Ns do is to draw the focus onto themselves... and your brother is doing this well. It is a very real victory to just disengage... emotionally at the least, if not physically. I am a realist, and since brother is definitely coming to the wedding, I suggest you figure out what his disruptive tactics are likely to be. Make a plan for how to deal with him, your parents' reactions to him, etc. That way when he does try to inflame things, you can feel "Oh, there he goes.." rather than "OMG!" Keep in mind that his tactic may be to be sickeningly sweet and apologetic, thus trying to make you look like a sour grape, and hoping to turn everyone against you..... But you know best what he will try... perhaps getting you alone and blasting you with how worthless you are...... Either way, it is best to be prepared.

Then you could detach, draw real boundaries with your parents about the wedding and how much you are going to interact with brother or with them if they go against your wishes. THEN.... you can detach from this drama and enjoy the rest of your preparations for the wedding as well the day itself!!!

If the word 'boundaries' is unfamiliar, please look for it on the web. It is the most powerful tool for dealing with people who are still under the Ns spell.

Julia

[LettingGo]

6. I did not know about the Kingdom of Narcissism and was unprepared that changing my role with my brother would not only make him mad, but would have implications for my entire family.

When you live in the KON everyone has a role to play. Right now you are tired of playing your role and want a role change. However, by you playing a different part requires others to do the same, but they don't want to. They feel comfortable playing their part, so it is much easier to pressure you to keep playing your part then to get everyone else to give up theirs.

The more you learn about Narcissism the strong the desire to share w/the KON, but this will back fire. To them you will be a broken mirror and like CZ the will try to kill the messenger. Wait until someone is actually hungry for knowledge and understanding and asks for your help, then you will have the knowledge to share with them. Don't be surprised if that day never comes.

I stopped myself from going to college in the same town as my brother because deep down I knew I needed to get away. I think that's the inner strength & confidence that I'm going to draw on to stop hitting my head against the wall with Parents and get through this wedding ok.~A

Sounds like you have a good sense of Self and can put down some clear and strong boundaries and you will have a back up plan for if or when the Nfamily crosses it, someone designated to escort them to the door.

Your wedding is just that your wedding. You know what you can live w/and not. Just don't compromise your Self and have the KON ruin or contaminate your special day w/regrets. I think you know what you want and what you don't and you will do just great.

[LettingGo]

Maybe what I need to do is create a list of recommended books and separate them in 'stages'? I would not suggest reading any book that delves into the partner or child's neurosis or co-dependency. Not in the beginning. It is far too easy to get stuck blaming ourselves when the narcissist is STILL projecting fault and blame on other people. ~CZ

This is a great idea!

[audrey76]

My Aunt just got me a wonderful and very generous wedding gift.  I sent her a quick email to thank her before sending out the formal thank you, and during our exchange, she wrote this:

"All of us who are coming are excited to share in this special day with you.  I am esp happy that Brother is coming.  Hope you have a special big hug for him and just let the past  be in the past."

ARGH!  My fiance said two things that were spot on: 1) "ignore it." and 2) "there are strings attached to the gift!"

there are so many things i want to write back - why does Brother get bonus points?  Does Brother have a hug for me?  etc. etc. etc.

So, instead i'm writing you in hopes of letting it go....

[audrey76]

snappy emails i have come up with while emptying the dishwasher:

"And what, pray tell, does Brother say when you tell him to give ME a big hug and let the past be the past?"

"it actually has nothing to do with the past.  Brother refuses to speak to me in the present.  With my graduation and my wedding and Jen's wedding, it has been very dramatic as he has refused to say whether or not he'll come until the last minute."

[audrey76]

another snappy comeback:
"i will treat Brother as I would treat any guest - with respect.  The question is, given his current behavior, will HE do the same for me?"

[CZBZ]

You know what I'd do (which doesn't make it 'right' or anything). I'd ignore her last comment. I wouldn't even validate it with a reply of any kind. Just act as though she never said a thing about your brother!

Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

When we're healing from a n-relationship and finding our boundaries, we might still be feeling guilty if we don't spill our guts. We were trained to 'tell all' and be scrupulously honest, even to our own detriment.

So you aunt wants you to hug your brother and let bygones be bygones. Now you know what she wants. She might also want to visit Disneyland and it isn't your responsibility to buy her ticket. She can want whatever she wants, what difference is that to you?

You, on the other hand, do NOT want to hug your crappy brother and you don't want to pretend everything's fine so don't. And do NOT fall into the trap of explaining yourself to other people. It's so easy to do. I know. It's like I had to explain WHY this or WHY that and 'please' everyone by exposing my soft underbelly. Then i learned to protect my soft underbelly instead.

Are you feeling a little bit guilty for just ignoring her comment? If so, wash that idea right out of your head. You own your aunt nothing and frankly, it is NONE of her business.

No answer. Nothing. That's my final answer. If I could call someone in the audience but it doesn't appear very many folks are online this afternoon.  


Hugs,
CZ

[betterdays]

All I can offer are two ideas, both coming from my regrets in a very similar situation:

1.  Elope, no joke.  I know it's planned and probably paid for, but it sounds like my brother's wedding. His just spiraled out of control, due to parent N's on both sides.  My N SisIL wouldn't even put up the pics, ever.  I moved thousands of miles away before I married, but failed to know I should consider #2, below:

2.  Before you marry, take some time out of this mentally to re-evaluate the family you are entering. Right now all the focus is on the center ring in your family's circus, but that's not all that will come into play later.  Everyone here knows you do, in fact, marry your spouse's family.  What is the quality of their input here, and how do they all treat each other? How do they feel about your family, and what is happening?