My brother (and SIL) is a narcissist

[Litha]

another snappy comeback:
"i will treat Brother as I would treat any guest - with respect.  The question is, given his current behavior, will HE do the same for me?"

You sound like me audrey76, I'm always thinking of snappy comebacks too. But stop and think a moment, and you will realize that the snappy comebacks really only work on television or in movies. In real life, they just generate more of the drama you are trying to avoid.

CZ is right, pretend you didn't hear/read the comment about your brother. Send the formal thank you card, write sweet things about her generosity, nix the snappy comebacks.

[LettingGo]

Betterdays, has great advice, if your Wedding Day is about you & your fiance and you want it to be wonderful and memorable for great instead of chaotic reason, then that is what you must do -- Elope! You must define what a Wedding really means to you. Is it a cherished & sanctified experience or one big party that the Ns will contaminate and ruin? You don't really want them to rob you of this very important day, but they will if given a chance -- that's what Ns do my friend!

My H planned a secret Wedding for us. It was so secret that I didn't even know about it until our first night in Hawaii where he proposed and gave me a custom designed card inviting me to my own Wedding. Like any bride to be a thought I should call my NFOO and H asked that I did not and I am so glad I took his advice. No matter what we would have done our Wedding would be about controlling the chaos, focusing on the Ns happiness instead of our own and enjoying a once in a life time moment.

Weddings never go well in the KON because they go against the KON's established rules. Unless it is the Golden Child getting married, or the Nparent getting re-marriend and even then they are never pleased. On a person's Wedding Day and the prep days leading up to the great event the bride and groom to be should be honored, everyone around should be on one accord to see that you two have a awesome time and to do what ever it takes to achieve that goal. You are making a common mistake that folks make in that assuming Ns will act normal and as CZ states, Ns ARE NOT NORMAL. And I say, Ns ARE TOXIC AND WILL DESTROY. You are expecting them to willingly give up their LIFE TIME roles of putting your needs and wants last and now put them first & think about what you would like on your Wedding Day. However, the rule of the land in the KON is every day is a N day. They do & will expect you to sacrifice and serve them, like you always have done in the past, even during your Day and they know that they have you backed into a corner because you know what will happen if you don't give into them, Dysfunctional Drama. Therefore you will run around trying to make everyone happy, which they never are, and this will only end in resentment.

I recognize your need to confront the favoritism of the Golden Child and do not want to deny your Self, there is time for all that after you are married, enjoyed your honeymoon and have nothing better to do with your time. I know you have a need for someone to validate your feelings, but those who are N-chanted in the KON wont. Why? You are not the Golden Child and that is the way things are done in the KON. Let this spectacular time in your life be about you and your fiancée and no one else. Every minute you spend focused on the Ns is a minute you steal from your Self. Therefore, you have two choices, Elope or go ahead w/this planned Wedding knowing that the Ns and their enablers will contaminate it and they you and your Groom go and reNew your vows on your Honeymoon have your own spectacular time together away for the contamination of the KON.

[betterdays]

I think this is a very helpful thread, and every post here has brought up viewpoints that are extremely important to consider.  You have my best wishes for clarity, judgment, and happiness at this turning point in your life.  Please let us know what decisions you make, and what your dress looks like! 

[audrey76]

Yes, this is a VERY helpful thread.

I knew I shouldn't respond to my Aunt, though I was tempted.  I didn't respond, but I'm glad I got to send my snappy comeback lines to someone though!  My fiance said that if she was going to buy us that much in gifts, she was allowed one free comment

I'm not going to cancel my wedding.  But I agree - there are some people there who want this to be - at least in part - about my Brother. Including my Brother.  On just this incident alone, we've spent hours on the phone discussing and arguing and sending emails back and forth.  And you can imagine over the course of my life how many hours I've spent dealing with Brother.  All a giant waste of time.  But by responding to my Aunt, I'd be contributing to that and making it worse.  Even though i desperately want the validation and I want people on my side.  It's a continual struggle for me to not push and poke and try to get people to see things my way.  When I give that up, the drama goes away and, frankly, I'm accustomed to the drama (see also: Ex boyfriend).  Actually, when I was breaking up with my N boyfriend, I literally made a list of people I could call and things I could do other than depend on him. I think I should make that list again of things I can discuss with my family other than Brother.  And when he comes up, I can change the topic!  We've done lots of remodeling on our house - can't wait to discuss paint colors with you!!!!

The thing my fiance keeps reminding me is that half of the guests at the wedding - all of his friends and family - aren't going to know about my brother and aren't going to care.  His friends/family are coming from far away because they love him and are excited for him and to meet me.  My friends (and I have lots of friends who are also coming from a distance) are totally supportive - they know about my brother and will do whatever they can to minimize his impact.  So, there's only my parents, my aunt, and probably about 5 of my cousins who may/may not be on my side (2 of them live near Brother and are probably more in the KON).  I have a wedding planner and a photographer who know the situation too, so that will also help if my mom spontaneously asks for a pic of me and Brother just to force some kind of interaction.

My in-laws, by the way, are wonderful.  They treat each other very respectfully.  His parents have a happy marriage and are very cute.  And his sister/partner/niece live nearby and I would actually be friends with them even if I weren't marrying their brother!  So, I am very lucky in that respect.  Any of the wedding plans I tell them they just say how happy they are for us and how everything will be so nice and how excited they are!  In contrast, my mother nit picks and tells me all of the things that are wrong with what I'm doing.  When I pointed it out to my mother, she said that she feels she has to be honest and she said that maybe it was better that I lived near the in-laws and not her.  Indeed! 

[LettingGo]

In contrast, my mother nit picks and tells me all of the things that are wrong with what I'm doing. When I pointed it out to my mother, she said that she feels she has to be honest and she said that maybe it was better that I lived near the in-laws and not her.  Indeed! ~Audrey

Audrey, get yourself a note book and jot down these comments from the KON. Get them off your mind until you are fully ready to deal w/them. Now is not the time, because these people do not change. In fact, here is the test to expose a NVamp, after the honeymoon and you are ready to deal w/the KON, tell your Mom just how you feel about how she treats you. Keep the focus on you and your feelings rather then Bro and other people. Tell her how you expect her behavior to change, then state your consequence if/when she does not. My H had to deal w/the Golden Child Syndrome in his dysfunctional FOO. He talked to his parents about their treatment towards him (the Scapegoat) and said if their attitude & behavior didn't change he was not going to have anything to do w/them anymore. I did the same w/the Momster in the KON. There is a difference between a KON and a dysfunctional FOO -- the difference is that the dysfunctional FOO will change and modify their behavior because they do care about you and do not want to lose you vs. those in the KON who do not value you, and will wave you goodbye when you leave the KON. You are replaceable, because to N's you are nothing more then a source of NS and when that is over so is the relationship. My In-Laws have changed over the years, they still are a work in progress, but at least they recognized that they made mistakes in the past, are remorseful, and are making changes. If your Mom changes her behavior, then she was not a N because Ns don't change for anyone and they will actually tell you that, "this is my life, no body is going to tell me how to live it and I am not changing for any one." ~ the Momster's reply to her children when they told her how her behavior, pattern of abuse, hurts others. If your Mom is remorseful and sorry how she has treated you then that is something you can work with, if she instead places the blame on you "being too sensitive etc" then you have a N on your hands and you and your husband will have to talk about what to do from there on realizing that, You don't change the KON, the KON changes you.

The nit picking behavior is a N trait revealing jealously by your Mom. She should be happy for you, but she is not -- Why not? Why be threatened by your D's happiness? Loving Moms support their D's choices even if they are different then their own. I watched my MIL and SIL's interaction when my SIL got married. I never saw her give advice or suggestions if they were not first asked for and she never put her D's choices down. She kept asking her D, What do you need and if she couldn't get it done she found someone else who could if the D was too busy doing something else. People who truly love one another have no problem serving each other and helping out. Ns will not serve others, they only want others to serve them, it is always a one-way relationship. When you are born into the KON you don't know how Love looks like, sounds like or behaves, so you must learn this from other loving relationships and apply it to your own life.

For the Momster we had to treat her like a spoiled rotten child and gave her a simple rule/expectation of respect to follow, No Negativity. We had to break down that very simple concept to her. If it is not positive, a praise report about someone, then don't say it to us. When she would break this rule we would ask her, how was this positive? It's not, so stop. Of course like a toddler she broke this clear boundary and suffered the consequence which she would try to use to her advantage w/other Sibs to gain sympathy from them. It worked until they had to give her the same consequence of kicking her out of their house. Now she tells any one who will listen that I don't allow her to just express her feelings about things. Poor little Vamp! Denied the opportunity to trash talk others. Ns will only temp. modify their behavior to a degree in order to gain something they want from you. In my case it was to be around my D and to come to her Dedication. In the past the Momster is notorious for being very late to events which messes things up when she wants to share a ride w/you and you have to wait for her. We stopped waiting for her and told her that if she is not here at the designated time we will leave w/out her and we have. For my D's Dedication, she wanted to ride w/us when she could have just met us at the church, so we told her if she is not here when we have to leave we are leaving w/out her. My H tried to give her directions just in case she did not show up on time, but she refused to take them saying she will be on time. She barely made it on time and tried to blame us for her having to speed through the Valley Pass. In her mind it was our fault that she drove recklessly putting her life and the lives of others in danger and not the fact that she should have left on time and that we refuse to ruin our D's Dedication waiting for her notorious late self. On the way to the church she "just had to complain" about my Sibs which is something we do not allow and she knows that. My H had to tell her at least 3 times that this was our D's Day and there is to be no negativity about others. After 3 times she shut her mouth until we got to the church, then spent the entire time playing w/my Sis's kids & causing my Sis problems during the Dedication Service. Then my Sis was not able to go to the Reception and would not allow the Momster to take her kids (because the Momster is a horrible driver). My Sis tried to kindly say no, but Momsters don't respect others, so she kept on pushing and pushing the issue until my Sis got up and left, then that wasn't enough to satisfy the NVamp she had to go on trying to triangulate my Sis against me, but I just replied, if she can't attend she can't attend no biggie just drop it. While my H's FOO was talking about the Dedication and about how our D is growing and learning, etc. the Momster once again brings up at the Reception about how come she just can't drive my Sis's kids like her MIL can and that my Sis is treating her terribly. I tried to ask her, Why do you think she doesn't want you to drive the kids? Completely Clueless because she doesn't value human life. She only cares about what she wants and the safety of others is of no concern to her. In her mind she is a great driver, although the DMV evidence to the contrary. My H had to tell her once again that there will be no negative talk and that if she desperately needs an answer to go to my Sis's house and ask her directly. Momsters want the focus to be N-tirely on them. After all these years I just got tired of dealing w/trying to control the Momster's chaos and that is why I am NC -- no more Momster to worry about ruining things.

[RB22]

Audrey,

I feel for you, I really do.  I come from the KON.... and married a N... Let me share my wedding experience for you (and everyone else).

I fell in love with my N.... he was wonderful, (well till it changed)  we planned on getting married.  My N father had left my N mother...and he had moved in with another woman.... OW.  My parents were separated for over 3 years before my wedding.  I don't know when the divorce was final.

As my wedding day got closer......my Nmother would inform me that she would NOT attend my wedding if OW was there.  She just couldn't handle it. 

Nfather couldn't understand why his xwife and his future wife couldn't be friends... "afterall they loved the same man" (his quote from a conversation we had about Nmom not coming if OW came.  He was marrying future wife a month AFTER my wedding...

Then my mother was NOT attending the rehearsal Barbeque for out of town guests... if OW was there... but she would attend the wedding...and the reception. All I HAD to do was run interference so OW and my mother wouldn't meet up .. say in the ladies room.  Like any bride has any time to just drop everything and run interference at her own wedding and reception.

My Nfather would NOT attend the rehearsal dinner unless OW was invited... future MIL called Nfather and with OW on the extension... told both of them... this was HER party at her house... and OW was not invited. (she never was)  And if the father of the bride decided that his daughter's wedding day was about something other than HIS Daughter, perhaps it is better he not attend the rehearsal dinner.

He was a half hour late to the church... for the rehearsal. 

The next morning... I had my best friend to my mothers house.. (not my home)  to help me get ready and to keep running interference between my mom and I.  Basically her instructions were... "don't leave her alone with me".  It worked. She didn't.

Nfather had informed Nmother, brother and I that he wanted to introduce OW to my mother and he thought the wedding reception was the perfect time to do that... because everyone would be sooo happy.  Nfather was told...(just prior to walking me down the aisle)  that would NOT be happening.  The way the tables were placed... his table was on one side if the diaz, Nmoms was on the other... IL's were in the middle... if he so much as crossed over to the other side of the room with OW in tow... he would be escorted out by friends. The same held true for OW approaching Nmom on her own.

He behaved, she behaved.... but I didn't eat, drank a bit too much and truly celebrated AFTER the reception at an AFTER-THE-WEDDING-PARTY with several close friends and my new H. 

The whole planning was a nightmare....I was popping antacids like they were candy. 

The things I have learned since that time... NOW I make my plans... tell the Nmom, or not... and go about my day.  She has attended several of my kids events... I even have her voice over on my D's 5th grade promotion ceremony commenting on the size of the girls busts who promoted that day.... alll you can here is her comments.  She denies it is her speaking.... evidence means NOTHING to them.

I keep the Nfather at arms length.... I was reminded the other night when I needed something from him (for my D to apply for a college scholarship)  and the first thing he says to me after NOT seeing me since christmas 2008.. was "YOU gained weight... it doesn't look good on you... you need to loose it"  My answer to him was  "you got old"  got what I needed and left as soon as I could.  But not before he bragged to me that he is NOW driving.  He turned in his license from his old state... when it came up for renewal... he turned it in to our state and got a new one.  He lives here now. But since his stroke can't see well enough in 25% of his vision.  Basically whatever is sitting at 1 o'clock and 3 o'clock is not consistantly seen.  He told me he drives the girlfriends car.... I didn't ask about the girlfriend... he didn't even have to take an eye exam to get this license.... uggh...

My mother hides her remarks a bit better. 

20 years ago I moved 1200 miles away from them...... they followed and he lives an hour away.. my mother lives a mile and half away. 

I am working on it... I go NC regularly and break it regularly.... I for the most part keep a hallmark relationship with them... yanno.. cards with no real sentiment or feelings... hugs with no feelings... all for show.. nothing to deep... it is easier with my mom... my dad has no tact... so he doesn't get brought out of the relationship closet much. 

And yes he did try to steer OW across the dance floor in my mother's direction and was boxed out by the body guards... he wasn't removed but it let him know.  And OW (may she RIP)  caught on and put him on notice... THAT being thrown out of his D's wedding was UNACCEPTABLE. 

good luck...

RB

[Proud2B]

Excellent suggestion, CZ.  Ignore the offending remark.

No explanation is necessary, and you're absolutely right about it
1.  Not being anyone's business
2.  No explanations or justifications are needed
3.  Wishes are wishes, and we're not responsible for the wishes of others.

Good call.

I vote for "no response" is the best response.

Proud2B