Hi Newbie here. A MAN!!!! betrayed by Nwife

[Topspinny]

Ive been reading about Npartners and have known my wife is one of THEM. I thought she was too full of herself and lacked the nurturing style that I associated with her gender. She was nasty at the drop of a hat, and cheated on her 2 ex husbands. It still came as a huge shock when, on a whim and the knowledge of her past, i peeked into her computer files. Graphic sexual plans with some old flame that lived accross the country. She tried to sugar coat, saying that it was "just a fantasy", but there were stated plans to rekindle their relationship. In her files I found hotel reservations for a cross country trip to volunteer at a sporting event. She claimed that she had decided not to see him but flew to the other coast anyway, (vacation). I kind of bought this story, (I wanted to believe), but while she was there I started to have a nervous breakdown. When she came back she said she wanted to work on our marriage and was acting oooh sooo nice. I fell for it again, 99.9% that is. A couple of weeks later, she left her Blackberry on the living room coffee table. I couldnt resist. I kidnapped it and tried to look into that monstrosity of a phone. I saw speed text pages with among other things, "where shall we meet" and "I love you" That was her notepad, but the text msgs were all deleted. She claimed that she didnt want to fill up her phone, but it holds 5 megabytes of texts! There were internet links that were very freshly used to the facebook flirt wall. The moment of truth came when I asked her to show me the file with the deleted texts. She said no and that she wanted a divorce. For the past 6 months she has gaslighted me, betrayed me and now abandoned me. I could write forever on this, but I guess I just wanted to remind you all that women can be that way also.

[SusyP14]

Hi Dude and welcome!!!

Although few men tend to post here, we have plenty of reports of WomeN as many of us have N mothers and hey, guess what, they were usually someone's wife!!!

Heartbreak and deceit do not know gender so we are glad you were brave enough to post here and here and here is a post just for you:

There is a lyric from an old tune which reads: Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. These illiterative words describe the powerful effect that the female narcissist has over male partners. Female narcissists are often very attractive, if not absolutely gorgeous. (There are many stunning women who are not narcissists.) Men are extremely visual. When they see a beautiful woman their heads and eveything else in them turns (even if they are 97 years old) This is how men are created. This is Darwinian necessity.

This proclivity on the part of the male spells trouble for him if he is erotically snagged by a narcissistic woman. He cant get her image and aura out of his mind especially when she is on and targeting every ounce of her magnetizing charm and sex appeal on him.

The man swept of by these women, gives over his will to her. He is at her mercy, under her control. At first there is an idealization by the man of his new partner. She sparkles, is highly self confident and entitled and he believes that she has picked him as her special man. Many men cannot say no to these women. They are hypnotized by them, entranced.

At some point the darker facets of the narcissistic female partner come out and they are not pretty. She finds constant fault with her beloved and continually criticizes and finds him lacking. He makes an effort to be perfect but this never succeeds because the narcissist always finds fault with everyone except himself or herself. Female narcissists often demand a lifestyle that creates tremendous pressure for her partner. Some of them are always threatening to leave if they dont measure up. After all they are so gifted and desirable no man in his right mind would turn her down.

At some point the non-narcissistic partner is almost at the breaking point. The cruelties and manipulations he has weathered have taken their toll---psychologically, emotionally, physically. Quite often the narcissistis femme fatale has already found a fresh new partner whom she can dominate and rule who can provide her with greater thrills and escapes into deeper delusion.

At a time certain to the narcissistic partner, the male is discarded and left confused and lost. It is difficult for men to reach out for help when they are hurting, especially if this is over a relationship that failed. Swallow your pride and self recriminations. If you think it is appropriate, find an excellent psychotherapist after doing a lot of research and interviewing several professionals.

Form a small circle of friends whom you trust completely and who will be there come rain or shine. Some individuals benefit from healing modalities like yoga, meditation, tai chi, qi gong that quiets the ruminative mind and brings a sense of peace and steadiness. Learn as much as you can about the specific nature of the narcissistic personality disorder. Recognize that these individuals fool most of us at one time or another. They are the smoothest operators.

Let go of your psychological burdens of the past, be grateful that the narcissist didnt steal more of your life. Follow the new pathways and cycles of life that are waiting for you as a unique individual. Practice self care regularly and be as kind and compassionate to yourself as you are to others.
Visit my website: www.thenarcissistinyourlife.com />
Linda Martinez-Lewi, Ph.D.

[betterdays]

Hi Tops,
The door labeled "N" swings both ways, and the important thing is how we go through it.  I scrubbed floors while my NH went to Las Vegas with buddies for the electronics convention.  It was useless to voice objections, because N insisted they were going to check out family attractions and learn about electronics.  His phone was off every night for 3 days. I hope the sex was worth it; he slept in the office ever after.  What's important is that we persist, we  find out, and we draw the line.  Keep on.  Don't give in again, if you can help it at all.  If you don't have kids, do not allow it to happen.  Take what you can and leave, since winning the fight is what N's relish.  She will make a life and death game of reeling you in again and again. I only know this from experience.  Good luck.

Oh, and the electronics convention is held at the same time every year as the porno industry's version of Academy Awards.  A town normally full of vermin just teems with gutterslime during the "convention". 

[LettingGo]

  Topspinny,
Your voice is needed and appreciated here at WoN. As Susy has said, many of us here have had Ns for a Parent, I refer to mine as the Momster. The gender reports on Nism being primarily male is inaccurate unless you consider 51% a majority. Accounts of female partner Nism is under reported because Men have trouble admitting they have been D&D by anyone, let alone their partner. I am glad that you are one of the Trail Blazers and will stick around to talk about your N-counter w/a female N. NMothers were somebody's wife or girlfriend, so the Nfemale population is way higher than people would like to believe. You will be challenged to find other men talking about Nfemales, but there is a lot you will find on Nmothers NMs which represents the Nfemale that you N-countered and was N-chanted by. Here is a great blog;
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/

This thread you might relate too -- I would like to hear your take on it!
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7029.0.html

Another great thread about female Ns is
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7118.0.html
Let me know which traits listed are the ones you N-countered.

The N-chantment Spell has been broken and the Counterfeit Princess has finished her fourth act of the D4, Deceive, Devalue, Discard, and Devastate, so how are you doing? Are you divorced from the NVamp?

These Counterfeit Princesses are just has deceitful as their male Counterparts. They are not happy until you are completely destroyed and devastated. They remind me of those insects that mate and then bite the heads off the males. They are truly evil and N-human. This NVamp had (3) choices in regards to her disconnect towards you,

(1) The Loving Choice - the kind one - say that there is a disconnect between you two and get professional help right away to heal the marriage.

(2) Hurtful & Honest Choice - admit she is no longer in love and wants a divorce, wants to be single to sleep around w/other guys. This is very painful, it's being stabbed in the heart, it is a frontal attack, but at least you know where she stands in regards to how she feels about you.

(3) The Evil Choice - the most painful, deceptive, evil & devastating one - lie and deceive until she is ready to replace and discard like toilet paper. She is a coward who enjoys stabbing people in the back
Ns always choose the most evil one!

You are not alone, TroubleReflector was also married to a Nfemale, I bet you two will have a lot to talk about and can teach us what it is like to be N-chanted by a female NVamp.
We live in a world that glorifies evil Vamps, hey there is even a popular song called, Beautiful Monster, but there is not anything beautiful about them. They are an ugly evil Troll w/a Counterfeit Cloaking Spell to disguise their true evil identity,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPJ4czjcXUw

[Topspinny]

Wow What a fine bunch a real females you all are, ie, if caring and nurturence are "female" qualities. To clarify, we are divorcing. She is happy as a lark and I am fighting back sorrow every second. I think she is quite unique, one of the initial attractions. She was a trailblazer in our city for her carreer/gender and has the sexuality of a drunken sailor. Personality-wise she is as male as any of your X's. The thing I liked about her best is that she could beat me on a tennis court, (We are both very avid players)What was fascinating now has become devistating.I always went for pretty-looking Tomboys and I guess that says something about me. I am tall and very masculine looking, but I suspect "female" on the inside. Ive been thinking about this for a while. Im rambling because of upset as Im packing to move out. Shes on a tennis court now. Thanks to you all.

[RB22]

Topspinny,

   to WoN, the Healing Place.

Hugs,

RB

[wanttobefree]

Hi Topspinny and welcome!
Congrats on your escaping the web! I am currently in a position to closely observe an N woman in action and I have to tell you, it is like watching a car crash over and over again, every week a new victim. Whenever she leaves the room I want to whisper 'ruuunnnn!', but their eyes always follow her, glued, intoxicated,already consumed. She keeps a running list of NS sources and bounces back and forth between them. The longest standing ones are dedicated to her in a way that baffles me. When in between pursuits, she uses these as fallbacks. Wooing, promising, giving them hope that they might just be the one who will change her ways. Afterall they have been so loyal and shown that they are willing to accept her completely for who she is. It is heart breaking to watch. Then some exciting new challenge comes along and they are once again bumped to bottom of her list, but the hooks remain in tact because she will need them again. She will throw them a bone every now and then to keep them hopeful.

When they leave the room, she starts picking them apart though they are only feet away. He's too this, not enough that, I don't like the way he smells, he's too needy, etc. As soon as they come back she turns the charm back on and the game continues. It's totally sick. She is an absolute master at manipulation. I've seen her use these tactics to her financial, as well as emotional advantage. A boat load of drama for a month is nothing to her if it gets the mortgage paid, or a vacation, or a new....anything. She particularly enjoys seeing what she can get them to do for her or give to her. When they start to show genuine affection, that's the point at which she begins to loathe and humiliate them.

The lies are just a given in this situation. When it comes to securing sources of NS, there are no rules for these people. They have learned how to elicit forgiveness with just a simple softening of the eyes, maybe a stray tear, or more overtly, sexual seduction.

This woman is sporty, scrappy, cute, energetic, charismatic, smart as a whip, artistic, and oozing the promise of exciting sexuality. I am so thankful that I am not a man in her presence because I can see how she would be irresistible. Her appearance of self confidence is 100% sham though. There is a desperate hunger beneath that cool structured demeanor that keeps her always on the hunt. If she doesn't get what she needs, she will die, and this makes her ruthless in her pursuits.

Of course all of our experiences come with their own intricacies and subtle differences, but basically they share the same foundation. Lies, manipulation, pain, deception, general usury. We have guest appearances in their elaborately conceived plays. They are always the star and we are just the props put in place when needed and then tossed or relegated to storage for future use.

You are much much more than this and I hope that your path back to that recognition is fulfilling in a way that enhances the joy of your future relationships, and that the pain of this experience is the catalyst for an even larger capacity for love. This has been my own experience and I feel it's the ultimate revenge, that I can actually feel more of what they will never truly feel. What was tapped into and seemingly drained away for good at one time, has been replenished and now I have a new respect for what that is and will be much more discerning about who I choose to share it with in the future.

Good luck with your move! Treat yourself gently and lovingly while you heal and know that you deserve it.

[LettingGo]

 

if caring and nurturence are "female" qualities. I am tall and very masculine looking, but I suspect "female" on the inside. Ive been thinking about this for a while. ~ Topspinny

I have done a bit of research in gender-roles and interpersonal relationship and their are traits that we have defined as "masculine" and "feminine" and depending upon how many of these traits a person exhibits they are labeled as either Masculine or Feminine. If they have both characteristics they are referred as Androgynous.

Androgyny is a term derived from the Greek words άνδρας (andras, meaning man) and γυνή (gyné, meaning woman) and refers to the mixing of masculine and feminine characteristics, as in fashion or hermaphroditism.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny

For me Androgyny represents a balance of the Self. Those who have both Traditional Masculine or Feminine Traits are much more successful and happy in both their professional and personal areas of their life. There is nothing wrong with a Man who has Traditional feminine traits nor is there anything wrong with a Woman who has Traditional masculine traits. My professors and I would get into these discussions about redefining traits into Desirable/Preferred and Less Desirable/Preferred Traits and removing the gender title. In other words being Assertive is a Preferred Trait where being Aggressive is a Less Preferred Trait both are Traditionally Masculine Traits. Assertiveness refers to Self-Care and Self-Protection where Aggressiveness refers to a Self-Absorbed lacking empathy for others, getting what you want at the expense of others -- sound like anybody you know?

In my research group we had a saying, I want to think like a Man, love like a Woman and laugh like a Child.
Being assertive does not Make a Woman less female and being kind, caring, and nurturing does not make a Man less Male. You are not less of a Man because you have these once Traditional "feminine" traits -- you are a Preferred Man! -- and I have the research to back it up! The idea that certain Preferred Traits makes you less of a Man -- hmmmm   Where do suppose that idea/lie came from?

I understand the N-chantment from a person who defies Stero-Typical Gender Roles and Gender Identity, as w/the stbXN but under this disguise lies waiting is the Vampire Queen to destroy your Self so that she can preserve her evil Self. I want you to start to envision her w/fangs dripping with the souls of the people she has devalued, discarded, damaged & devastated. She really is a demon with a human disguise that is only skin deep.

A normal female, even if she initiated the break up would be sad that the relationship is over, but not a Troll Queen, there is No Love in her Game! Seriously it is time to see her for who she really is w/out her insidious disguise and the powerful deceptive Cloacking & N-chantment Spells check out the following link ASAP when you get to your new place and let me know if you see anyone familiar!
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7029.0.html

[Topspinny]

Hey thanks so much. I feels great to be validated.I cant believe that I saw every red flag, KNEW what they were and gave her a pass until it hurt so much that mere function was impossible. I do want to admit that I had a part in things. Ive done MUCH reading on the topic, so when things got bad, I sort of DnD'd her myself and retreated into my own world. In my defense, it went like this:
I would go to work at 6:00AM and get home at 8PM. When I came home, I would stick my head into her home office door and say hi, how is it going. Got a cold-as-ice reply and went to bed. This went on for years. I realized she was NPD and just waited for something big to happen, like me catching her cheating. Well she sure didnt dissapoint. She is guilty of virtually everything you all have spoken about, yet I keep trying to make some rational sense of her behavior.
Lettinggo, you nailed it here:
(1) The Loving Choice - the kind one - say that there is a disconnect between you two and get professional help right away to heal the marriage.

(2) Hurtful & Honest Choice - admit she is no longer in love and wants a divorce, wants to be single to sleep around w/other guys. This is very painful, it's being stabbed in the heart, it is a frontal attack, but at least you know where she stands in regards to how she feels about you.

(3) The Evil Choice - the most painful, deceptive, evil & devastating one - lie and deceive until she is ready to replace and discard like toilet paper. She is a coward who enjoys stabbing people in the back
Ns always choose the most evil one!

I saw her do number three to her ex husband, (Im ashamed to say that I was the interloper, although, she downplayed her remaining involvemt with hubby number2) Guess what? Although, he was alchoholic and could get violent,(for which there is no defense), those facts gave her credence to her claim of complete innocence. I bought that one also. Two years ago, HE DIED in a motorcycle accident. She now admits that he was suicidal after their divorce, and uncharacteristically admits some tiny modicum of blame, (I think that N's will admit fault about past transgressions to a 3rd party only). She is using this to justify witholding her intent to divorce, claiming that my (minor) heart condition was the reason to deceive. Im convinced its the same ladder-rung relationship trading that she had pulled with me, on him. What I cant wrap my mind around is the extreme lovey-dovey manner in which she was behaving, right before I saw the last piece of evidence which blew her game. I knew she was a narcissist but that piece REALLY was unfathomable to me.
Oh well, Im going to read all of your links and know that although I SURE WASNT PERFECT, at least I didnt knowingly deceive her.
Lettinggo, you got her right. Shes a coward! The puzzling thing, shes an ex-cop, and petrolled one of the worst neighborhoods in NYC with a gun and a badge, but shes too frighted to tell the man who committed his life to her, that she wanted out. Instead, only games and BS. Im starting to think that narcissists have biologically different brains that us garden-variety neurotics.
Heres another. She told me she turned off to me two years ago when I developed the heart condition. She claimed that I wasnt taking good enough care of myself and listening to her and her brothers advise, (hes a doc), and therefore, did not deserve as much care as disgust. This is, developing heart arrythmia was casing her FRUSTRATION. Talk about lack of empathy.
Anyway, Im going to stop the bandwith hogging and start more reading.
Thanks again to you all.
Topspinny

[wantingtoheal]

Welcome, Topspinny!

It's so great to hear a man's perspective. My heart goes out to you.

[LettingGo]

I'm starting to think that narcissists have biologically different brains that us garden-variety neurotics.~Topspinny

They definitely have a screw loose -- the one that holds in their conscious.

Ns always select the most hurtful choice that causes the most pain and when you call them on it, they come up w/any lie that you are willing to believe that puts the blame off of them. They have no empathy, no remorse, and no accountability. Always somebody else's fault.

You know how that saying goes, if they will do it with ya, they'll do it to ya. If a person has no honor in their previous relationship, then we can not expect him/her to act honorable in the next one. Hard lesson to learn, but now you know.

After the N-counter, it is important to not only recognize the patterns the Ns have, but more importantly our own. When did we start making compromises to Self, because that is the moment we started to lose our Self.

There are a lot of women here who have gone though and are going through a divorce w/a N so they can give you great advice. This is where you need to focus on, preparing for the battle that is right around the corner. Her strategy will to place the blame on you, so just stick to the facts you know about her.

[Topspinny]

Letting go:

You must know her. In a 9 year relationship, she has said "sorry" exactly once! And not even when caught violating her wedding vows. Yep, I never got a sorry. Today was our last day together as Ive completed my move out. Being the sentimental idiot that I am, I took her for one last lunch together. We started talking and she said that it was unfortunate that I met her at a time of ongoing great stress in her life as it had a negative effect on her mood, HENCE A TINY HINT OF ADMISSION OF GUILT! This was stunning to me, as Ive never seen her do anything but deflect all blame, even regarding her affair!
Want to know why???? Because now she has to deal alone with the extreme mess she has made of her own finances, (N's always control the money, and spend it on house beautification and long vacations alone). Empathy for a hard working loyal partner, NO.
Just remorse over her own messy debt situation.
Yes she did it with me and to me. I feel pretty stupid right about now, because I had a hideous discomfort about our courtship. She used to hide my pickup(from the husband she said she was separated from), in her garage when I stayed over. Reddest of red flags!
Glad you mentioned our own patterns. Well Im just a world class people pleaser. Gotta write myself a note to please myself for once.
Our divorce wont be messy. Im making sure she gets what is rightfully hers and then some. Her focus is usually SUPPLY, anyway. The old guy can only give money, which pales in comparison to NS.
However Im spending lots of time thinking about MY role in this fiasco. Not beating myself up, just doing a reality check on both sides of the acusatory finger.
Thanks again for your kind support.
Topspinny

[Litha]

However Im spending lots of time thinking about MY role in this fiasco. Not beating myself up, just doing a reality check on both sides of the acusatory finger.

  Topspinny, sorry you had such a bad experieNce. The comment above caught my eye because this is something a narcissist will never never do. It is such a natural part of life to learn from mistakes, but you have to be able to admit that you made a mistake before you can learn from it. Ns see themselves as flawless and therefore incapable of mistakes, so they will never learn or grow.

 
Litha

[LettingGo]

Hey Tops, Ns have the same MO I am curious to find a gender difference, but as yet I have not found one. I wonder if anyone else has picked up on a gender difference? When I write about the Momster and use the terms Always someone else's fault and Never is remorseful, in a normal world always and never seem such an extreme, but Ns break all the rules don't they. The few times the Momster ever said sorry was immediately followed w/a huge BUT which means forget what I just said now I am going to tell you what I believe which was any excuse/lie you are willing to believe.

It is very normal in long-term relationships for couples to go through a "Roommate Season" usually during or after a very stressful time in their life. However, during these times there is still shared interest and hobbies like you would w/your best friend. When your spouse doesn't even want to go on a vacation w/you and treats you like an enemy w/their abusive behavior the relationship is done, but you don't get the official notice until your replacement is found & well established in your role.

For me, every time I tolerated, endured, and survived another attack and did not leave I made a compromise. A compromise not only to the NVamp but most importantly to my self. I compromised my self. Anytime we settle for less than the best possible situation we send a strong message to self, as well as others, that I do not have my best interest at heart. I do not value me. It really is about teaching others how to treat us and when you find someone who is unwilling or unable to learn then it is time to leave. If I do not value self, others wont either. By staying in a toxic relationship I was compromising my well-being by not valuing self and leaving an abusive situation.

Yes she did it with me and to me. I feel pretty stupid right about now, because I had a hideous discomfort about our courtship. She used to hide my pickup(from the husband she said she was separated from), in her garage when I stayed over. Reddest of red flags!~Tops

This is one reason I truly believe Ns are evil, because they enjoy getting someone to compromise his or her Self. Every time the N gets us to compromise we lose a bit of our Self and we look to the person who stole it to give it back and of course they not only refuse, but they take a little more every time we try to regain what we previously lost. They will use our own guilt to their wicked advantage reminding us of it every chance they get in order to prep us for the next compromise. They slaughter our self-esteem and then slam us for not having any. Then when we are crushed play the Super Hero and do something unexpectedly super nice, build us up just to knock us back down. Great brainwashing technique to instill undying loyalty used in Cults, Hazing and Boot Camp. It is an evil game of Follow the Leader. It keeps us guessing reality and most importantly ourselves.

No wonder we start to see our Selves as Less-Than. When we see ourselves as defective in comparison to others, we lower our value. When we don't value self and constantly look outward for validation and rely on the perception of others & validation from others, then they can keep lowering the bar on us. It is like playing a Deadly Game of Limbo and the N holds the robe. We look to the Ns for the standard and bend over backwards to make them happy. We keep bending backwards until we loose all balance and fall flat on the floor and the Ns can walk all over us. It is only by knowing Self and can stand in the Truth that we are valuable, unique and priceless that we can refuse to play their devaluing game.

Glad you mentioned our own patterns. Well Im just a world class people pleaser. Gotta write myself a note to please myself for once.~Tops

Most of us here @ WoN are People Pleasers, nothing wrong w/that as long as we keep it in Balance. Taking care of others should not come at the constant and consistent expense of taking care of Self. The main trouble we find ourselves in is trying to please the wrong people. Ns demand a win-lose situation and can not grasp the concept of a win-win situation.

However Im spending lots of time thinking about MY role in this fiasco. Not beating myself up, just doing a reality check on both sides of the acusatory finger.

This is great for your personal healing and learning, but keep this info private and whatever you do don't share it w/the N -- especially before the divorce is final because she will just use this info against you. We all have to ask ourselves why we kept returning to not only an empty Well but a very toxic Well that contaminated our Self. If we don't figure it out, "the unfinished business" will repeat itself in the next relationship, different partner same core problem.

It is great to hear that your divorce will not be messy, please prepare yourself, no matter how much you give an N it will never be enough and s/he will want more. Do not let your guard down.  

[Topspinny]

Letting go:
Thats all great advise, and Im trying.I could go on and on about all the little hurtful things that were done and said, but Im trying to stay positive about me and realize that it sucks to be her. She sooooo lives for supply from the opposite sex that, looking back it amazes me that she didnt cheat more. Then again maybe she did and got away with it. N's will gaslight you until your frog is so boiled that it all seems normal, right and proper.(Please excuse the mixed methphor)
Well thanks for the support from you all. It has made a difference. Its great to talk to folks who have"been there, done that". Only a person who has loved a narc can imagine the topsy-turvey world that they impose.

[peartree]

welcome topspinny
great to have you. hopefully the N-fog will clear for you soon, this forum will definitely help with that ! Ns are toxic to the core and healing can be a long journey.
take care of you now,
peartree

[LettingGo]

N's will gaslight you until your frog is so boiled that it all seems normal, right and proper.~Tops

Makes perfect sense to me! My Sibs jump out of the pot and then jump right back in -- I did that too, but now I enjoy a cool refreshing crystal clear stream.

[CZBZ]

"However Im spending lots of time thinking about MY role in this fiasco. Not beating myself up, just doing a reality check on both sides of the acusatory finger." ~topspinny

I so agree with LettingGo on keeping your self-examination PRIVATE. Do not tell your spouse. Do not send her a letter of apology, listing your many flaws and faults. Many of us make that mistake before learning about 'pathological narcissism'. There is a huge distinction between 'normal narcissism' and pathological and one of the differences is 'introspection'. When people who naturally introspect realize they have contributed to problems in the relationship, they automatically take responsibility for themselves and alter their behavior.

In a normal relationship, both people recognize their 'shadow side'. The things we do unconsciously that disturb or confuse a partner. We see it and we change it and we grow as a result. We assume our relationship with a narcissist works the same way--that once we admit we were being selfish or self-centered, they will do likewise. Have you noticed how healing an argument can be when both people take a hard look at themselves, admit their flaws and apologize? When people apologize, I've also noticed that other people are quick to forgive because they also realize that despite their best efforts to show their love for someone, they ALSO make mistakes.

With the narcissist however, admitting your flaws LETS THEM OFF THE HOOK. What happens afterwards is that during another altercation, the narcissist USES every intimacy you revealed about yourself to justify WHY they did what they did. You feel like a failure and the narcissist is off the hook....AGAIN. As long as we admit to having contributed to 'the problem', the narcissist will AVOID (deny) his or her responsibility! This is counter-intuitive to most people who are NOT narcissists. So we apologize again, hoping the narcissist will 'mirror' our behavior by doing likewise and they DO NOT. In fact, they will build on your humble admission as a 'character trait.'

For example: everyone does things that are interpreted by others as 'selfish' (insert whatever adjective you want here). You say, 'I am so sorry for only thinking of myself!' and you expect this apology and admission to trigger a similar response from your partner. Instead, each time you are 'taking care of yourself' the way all humans must do, the narcissist accuses you of being selfish. he or she doesn't say, "I feel neglected when you do such-and-such" because that is self-revelatory. Instead, the narcissist says, "You are a Selfish person, even YOU admit it."

Most people who have written about their break-up with a narcissist, have learned to introspect, take responsibility for their part in the fiasco, and keep it to themselves. (or share with 'safe' others). Most people also learn over time, that the narcissist will use any excuse, ANY EXCUSE AT ALL, to avoid taking responsibility for their part in the fiasco. Your short list of defects, mistakes, flaws, etc. become the reason WHY the narcissist acted the way they did.

It may appear to 'civilians' that "we" are pointing accusatory fingers at narcissists without examining ourselves and this is simply NOT true. We learn, even if we aren't conscious of it, that any admission of personal weakness on our part will be used against us.

One more thing: in a normal relationship, normal people are LOATH to bring up any intimacy someone has revealed about themselves. They respect the person's willingness to be so honest about their problems and they also empathize with how it feels when your weaknesses are used like weapons of humiliation. There is this invisible line that we do not cross, even if we are angry and defensive. We do not use someone's painful revelations against them.

Most people have been taking responsibility throughout the relationship. They didn't realize their partner was gathering ammunition instead of examining him or herself. The narcissist may cry or weep or appear to be suffering when you apologize but sad to say, it's not real. You'll know that the next time you've done something really swell and the narcissist says, "You may have excelled at that project, sweetie, but that's because you are so incredibly SELFISH. Even YOU said so!"


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

P.S. I learned the hard way, let me be honest. Please don't hold it against me. 

During our divorce, i read a highly recommended book titled "Spiritual Divorce" and dutifully listed my mistakes, flaws, ignroance, blah-blah-blah and tried to have a conversation with my spouse. I did not know about narcissism at the time. Do Not Do This if you believe your partner is narcissistic. It releases them from whatever introspection they are capable of and increases your VULNERABILITY.

You must be very careful sorting through self-help relational books that are NOT recommended for pathological relationships. YOU, the non-N, ends up being humiliated, degraded and your most spiritual aspects of yourself will be brutalized. If you want (or feel a need) to self-deprecate, please post to a support group that allows you to express your feelings whatever they may be. For some reason, most people WANT to admit the things they did 'wrong'. We need to purge and confess to being flawed.

Pointing fingers at narcissists is extremely difficult for Non-Ns. In order to balance our accusations, we admit our flaws/shadows/defects but we CANNOT, SHOULD NOT, DO NOT need to admit this to the narcissist. It's not good for YOU and it's definitely NOT good for the narcissist.

[LettingGo]

CZ, your last two posts should be a separate permanent thread on the dangers of being Vulnerable w/a NVamp. How we must fight our natural instincts of being human w/a N-human person. It is a deadly game of Show and Tell which I use to play w/the Momster. I thought I will Show her an area I need to work on and Tell her how I am working on it. I thought mutual sharing would lead to mutual understanding and healing -- it would in a Normal Loving Relationship. However, Ns are evil and think to themselves, Oh that is where you are most vulnerable and is important info. because Ns know How to attack, but they do not know Where to attack until we tell them. When you share your heart w/an N you expect them to respect, honor, and treasure it -- not snack on it, have it for desert, or make it their main course & devour it.  

[CZBZ]

I will put this on a separate thread, LettingGo, as you suggest. I write and forget what I wrote and where i wrote it, so it's helpful to know what is useful to people who are just beginning to learn about pathological narcissism. I have written close to 30,000 messages over the years.  It helps me to know what might be the most useful topics to people so we can have a separate page on our forum.

I write Pathological Narcissism now instead of NPD which will be re-structured in the new DSM-V. This does not mean NPD does not exist, it's only being re-evaluated. Pathological narcissism is present in all cluster B disorders which is why it has been so difficult to define. Most people with NPD are co-morbid with another cluster b disorder, confusing those of us who want a clearer definition of the disorder so we can HELP ourselves. To heck with the PD driving everyone else insane, we have to HELP ourselves. You will notice that I used to write NPD and now use the term 'pathological narcissism', an important element in all personality disorders, including the antisocial disorder (psychopathic, sociopathic). We could use the term Malignant Narcissism instead, though this is more akin to psychopathy and not all pathological narcissists are psychopathic.

Enough psychobabble....LOL!

Hugs,
CZ

[LettingGo]

Wow 30,000 messages of wisdom -- no wonder you write so WoNderfully!

Thank you CZ. Had I discovered WoN years ago this topic would have been so useful, hey even just 5 years ago it would have confirmed what my Doc had recommended, temp. NC w/the Momster while I was trying to get pregnant. The years I was trying to get pregnant, I did not have to tell the Momster where I was vulnerable, it was obvious and talk about Cognitive Dissonance (another great topic you wrote on!), the Momster sent an inspirational baby book (I believe my youngest Sib rec. that), then she would have "debates" w/me about a Woman's right to choose Partially/Mostly Born Abortion -- which she knows I believe is murder. Of course these were anything BUT calm debates as she falsely reported to my Sibs. And here is the kicker, she said my H & I using medical intervention (while we were in the process of doing so) is the same as a Woman using Partially/Mostly Born Abortion. The Momster is an ignorant N who has NOT done her research on either procedures. She does not know what is involved in either case, yet says they're the same. Now normal Mothers take their D shopping and getting prepared for the new member of the family to arrive, but not the Momster they contaminate this special time in a Woman's life. The doc rec. NC and I happily agreed. I would rec. to anyone who has a N in their life to go temp. NC during such vulnerable/emotional/stressful times in their life (losing a job, your illness or a loved ones, death of a love one, etc). Pretty much anything that is found on the Stress Scale.

You will notice that I used to write NPD and now use the term 'pathological narcissism', an important element in all personality disorders, including the antisocial disorder (psychopathic, sociopathic).~CZ

I did notice the change in terms. I also think people (the general public as well as professionals) use Malignant Narcissism as obvious and overt Narcissism -- which many Malignant Ns are not so obvious, but yet very vicious & deadly just the same. I also like the articles you & others have written on Overt/Obvious vs. Covert/Subtle Nism.

[CZBZ]

Dear LettingGo,

I started writing on message boards in 2002. It's amazing how many posts you can write in eight years.   I only know this because two of the forums where I posted, kept track of how many messages we had written. Whenever someone worries they are 'hogging the board', I kinda smile to myself...if they only knew, eh?   I had to write until i got myself right and that's just how it is.

Oh how I wish (and Honeybear has expressed the same thing. We met on a Midlife Crisis forum under the assumption our husbands were taking a temporary break from sanity), I had known about NPD before I spilled my guts.

Before I twisted myself into a pretzel and struggled with mental ruination attempting to make sense of the N's projections.

Truly and I mean this truly, I did a lot of damage to my self-esteem because of what I didn't know. When my marriage fell apart, I tried SO HARD and that meant taking responsibility for the mistakes i made and also for my hang-ups of which I have plenty. I did NOT know my relationship was pathological.

By the time I had tried everything I knew to resolve our problems (my other relationships are intimate and close which was the basis for my behavior with the X-N), I could easily have been diagnosed as a pathological co-dependent. Which is the main reason why I remain adamant about Getting Out, or at least learning about Pathological Narcissism BEFORE diagnosing yourself or being diagnosed. A few psychologists are pushing this point now too and I am grateful they realize the harm people suffer in teh N-relationship.

Give us a break and THEN diagnose us if we qualify for a 'disorder' of some kind. We will take responsibility for that, too.  


Hugs,
CZ

p.s. I call it Mental Ruination, not rumination, LOL

[Topspinny]

CZ, et al:
Ive been away from the board as Im completing my move out. I dont have to worry about Nwifes take/ reaction to anything I say because she simply CARES NOTHING about me and what I say/ think/ feel. She is off getting her supply fix and wild horses couldnt get her to even break stride. Yes she has avoided any and all responsibility FOR ANYTHING negative. My introspection is for me in that I dont want anything like this to happen again, so the flaws and mistakes that the Nwife reacted so awfully to, hopefully will not burden my next relationship, such as it will be. CZ, I want to thank you personally, as it was your blog, more than anything else that kept my sanity though the last couple of years of the marriage and present estrangement. Thank you and the rest of those on this board who have helped me weather this storm.  Tonight, this is blasting from my speakers: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQfr5MtLXnQ

Hugs to you all
Dave aka Topspinny