What would you do?

[betterdays]

A few days ago N reprogrammed the built in garage door remote in my car, then yesterday set up a whole conversation to illustrate how well it worked.  When D and I both said, no the garage doors do not open with the built in remote anymore, he stated we were both having reality issues.  He went out, pushed the button, and showed us they worked fine. The key to they whole situation: D told me he was in the car, changing the remote just before he made the show of opening the door.  In the last month, he has been doing other things to the car, and bringing it to our attention, as if we had done it.  Tonight he engineered a big drama, and told me we were losing touch with reality.  I remained calm, did not argue, just kept saying, "I see." Finally I said I felt he was being abusive, and I needed to leave the room.  He called me a narcissist and told me I was abusive.  In the last year he has escalated to an unbearable point.  We have to stay one more year for financial reasons, and to take custody off the table.  He seems to need an argument once a week, then he calms down.  When he used to threaten us and make one or both of us cry, he acted pleased.  He is not just an N, he has sociopathy too, I know he cheats on the taxes and sleeps with his students. I know this probably sounds very familiar to many here.  My question is, how do we shut this jerk up?  If I threaten back he needs to fight soon again, and runs around acting like a drama king and demanding apologies. I have to act like a therapist with him and ask what he thinks, or feels, and baby him around.  I have better things to do, and resent even having to talk about this.

[Litha]

Tonight he engineered a big drama, and told me we were losing touch with reality.  I remained calm, did not argue, just kept saying, "I see." Finally I said I felt he was being abusive, and I needed to leave the room. 

Wow, great job! You have come a long way in your recovery if you can be so strong! It sounds like D is wise to his antics as well, which is HUGE. So many parents have to struggle with a child who can't accept that their N-parent is incapable of parenting.

When he used to threaten us and make one or both of us cry, he acted pleased. 

That is what happens when a person is not capable of feeling empathy toward others. Normal human beings feel terrible if they make their spouse or child cry.
 

I know this probably sounds very familiar to many here.  My question is, how do we shut this jerk up? 

Well, if your husband is N, the only thing that will shut him up is discovering a big warm teet full of N-supply. Then he will quietly suckle it dry, giving you some peace and quiet for awhile. As soon as it is empty he will throw a tantrum again.

It sounds like you are planning your escape, which is also very smart. In the long run that is the only way to restore peace and quiet in your life. He probably senses that you are leaving, and that will cause an escalation of his worst behaviors.

I hope you also have an emergency escape route planned. If he is a sociopath then you can't underestimate the potential for extreme violence. Keep a bag packed for you and D, open a secret bank account in your name only and keep emergency cash in it.

Take care of yourself, keep your focus on the "betterdays" ahead

 
Litha

[CZBZ]

"I have to act like a therapist with him and ask what he thinks, or feels, and baby him around.  I have better things to do, and resent even having to talk about this." ~betterdays

Hi betterdays!


some of the suggestions we're given makes a person nauseous. Like 'reparenting the narcissist' until he's cured. I read that website and upchucked my Oreos. Even Nina Brown's books such as 'Loving the Self-absorbed', go way way beyond what I call a marriage of peers. If a child is narcissistic, that's one thing. But a spouse?? And who wants to run a psyche-ward anyway?

jest kiddin' on that last question. My home is a psyche ward with Prozac-in-a-bowl taking center stage on the breakfast table. It's easier to do that when a relationship is not by choice, unlike a chosen spouse.

Off the top of my head, I'd suggest focusing on yourself, your feelings, your reactions. Maybe you already have a good understanding of pathological narcissism and how we rare wounded by their disorder? For instance, he is trying his best to 'gaslight' you but hey, you're wise to him. He is trying to make YOU believe you are crazy, but hey, you have WoN. You know what he's up to.

He is also projecting his own 'loss of reality' onto you. When narcissistic supply (that would be you and your child) threaten to leave, the narcissist feels 'unhinged', lost, surreal, as if he'll disappear into the ethers. His loses HIS touch with reality. Perhaps there's a bit of projection going on along with the intentional GASLIGHTING.

What I see is that he's trying to make you feel crazy FOR HIM. Don't pick up his projections, betterdays. You can do that by writing to people on the forum if you don't have a face-to-face support group that understands Abuse and Narcissism.

I wonder how you'd have reacted to his allegations that YOU have lost touch with reality had you NOT known about gaslighting???

You sound like you're quite clear that he's the one whose lost touch with reality, not you. That's a healthy sign... 


Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

I am not trying to second guess your decision, but are you sure you must wait a year before leaving?  Below are my favorite quotes about gaslighting.  The good news is you are aware of it, the bad news is how much it affects you mentally.  If your daughter is a teen-ager, custody should not be an issue in most States (I am assuming you are in the US).

Anyway, good luck.  Once you are dealing with the gaslighting stage, you have a true sicko on your hands.  Not that any of them are a walk in the park, but gaslighting is SO PATHOLOGICAL.

Are You Being Gaslighted?

http://www.enotalone.com/article/16906.html

Your husband crosses the line in his flirtations with another woman at a dinner party. When you confront him, he asks you to stop being insecure and controlling. After a long argument, you apologize for giving him a hard time.

Gaslighting is an insidious form of emotional abuse and manipulation that is difficult to recognize and even harder to break free from. That's because it plays into one of our worst fears, of being abandoned, and many of our deepest needs: to be understood, appreciated, and loved.

I know we all hate Sam (well at least I do) but sometimes he does have interesting things to say:

http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse10.html



Ambient abuse is the stealth, subtle, underground currents of maltreatment that sometimes go unnoticed even by the victims themselves, until it is too late. Ambient abuse penetrates and permeates everything, but is difficult to pinpoint and identify. It is ambiguous, atmospheric, diffuse. Hence its insidious and pernicious effects. It is by far the most dangerous kind of abuse there is.

It is the outcome of fear.  Fear of violence, fear of the unknown, fear of the unpredictable, the capricious, and the arbitrary. It is perpetrated by dropping subtle hints, by disorienting, by constant and unnecessary lying, by persistent doubting and demeaning, and by inspiring an air of unmitigated gloom and doom (gaslighting).

Ambient abuse, therefore, is the fostering, propagation, and enhancement of an atmosphere of fear, intimidation, instability, unpredictability and irritation. There are no acts of traceable explicit abuse, nor any manipulative settings of control. Yet, the irksome feeling remains, a disagreeable foreboding, a premonition, a bad omen.

In the long term, such an environment erodes the victim's sense of self-worth and self-esteem. Self-confidence is shaken badly. Often, the victim adopts a paranoid or schizoid stance and thus renders himself or herself exposed even more to criticism and judgment. The roles are thus reversed: the victim is considered mentally deranged and the abuser, the suffering soul.

Gaslighting
http://ezinearticles.com/?EmotionalAbuseAreYouBeingTooSensitive?ProbablyNot&id=2386369

In verbal gaslighting, as in the 1944 movie of that name, the perpetrator attempts to make the victim doubt their own perceptions and judgments and accept those of the abuser. This may be done intentionally or unconsciously, but when the victim loses confidence in their own judgment they become easily swayed and accept the perpetrator's point of view, plan or decision.
Since cumulative emotional trauma creates psychological damage much more often than single traumatic incidents, when gaslighting is repetitive and intense, overall mental health may be affected and growing self-doubt can lead to emotional breakdown or even suicide in the victim.

[SetURselfFREE47]

BetterDays,

How do you shut hum up? Well, I think unfortunately you all ready know the answer, which is, we can't! 

First I want to say great job on not feeding into his self imposed drama scene and being able to see fully what was going on. I know that those situations are so laden with emotion for you, I know for me it is nauseating and at the moment the lease bit empowering (that comes afterward from doing the right thing, which you did by not reacting the way he had hoped). Also, it is so great to read that your D understands what is going on, which helps validate your experience of "reality" and understand when gaslighting occurs that it is in fact the case, and not just a slip in memory for you, as they want you to believe.

As far as I have read, and experienced, the best you could do at this point is remain neutral in your conversations. N's pick and pick at their prey like animals, wanting to get in there and expose their insides so they can laugh and play with them, while the victim is left helpless. Remaining emotionally unavailable to him is important. Challenging, yes, because how do we as normal humans do that? Well, for me, to be that for towards an N is easy with practice. This is when, in my experience, they become incredibly predictable. Its really impressive to me. My exN became very predictable in ways that he wanted to hurt me, and when he saw that what usually would hurt me no longer caused arguments or any emotional reaction from me, he gave up! He went somewhere else for his NS. What a relief that day was! Not that it is over for them, but, it starts to weaken their addiction.
 
You seem to be a strong woman, with an equally strong and perceptive D. I wish you luck and patience in dealing with your N if in fact you must wait a year. Please remember to care for yourself, love yourself, and continue making those "escape plans".

  

[eyes_up]

Telling a narcissist they are being abusive is nice for you to get it out but it does not work with the conditions in a way that is energy efficient. No matter what, narcs are JOBS!

The key is knowing it is a job and making constructive efforts to lessen your energy to do the job. Quitting the job happens more after divorce.

So, If the narcissist is making a comment about your reality ... let him make it with out your reply. If he pushes further which he will, find ways to distract him like... hey it was wonderful how you decided to install the garage door opener (it doesn't matter that he is playing games with it). The job is to reduce your use of energy in terms of his games.

so it is changing reaction into response. Since you got the big picture on the narc operation it will take cleverness to divert his attention with positive supply. If the narc demands negative supply then do it consciously and know how much energy you are using .

Being honest is not the best policy with a narcissist. Confrontation doesn't work either in fact it sets up a new shop which one will have to tend to ... so the less he knows about your thoughts and feelings the better.

Supply is supply is supply for a narcissist. Attention to his/her voice is supply. Knowing how to give supply consciously  is the key. This kind of supply requires no personal information about your feelings or true thoughts. Mock supply works 50% or more but at least it reduces your use of energy.

No matter the tactic, gas light or abuse by proxy or the silent treatment (bet ya wish ya had that one  ) It is changing your reaction into a response that will work for you. If you defend yourself, which is entirely understandable given you are being attacked, then you are giving his voice credibility.

For example, I had a nutty boss yelling at me over the phone for something I didn't do just a while ago. My first reaction was to defend myself. She replies ... stop defending yourself. My que was to say ... well then stop attacking me. That doesn't work with narcs. What work is to lower the temperature completely and not get caught up in the drama. I feed the drama by overtly defending so it requires a different kind of defense I might even call covert defense. Take the juice out of the subject...TAKE YOUR EMOTIONAL ENERGY OUT OF THE SUBJECT.

Instinct to  defend are natural and absolutely understandable that is to say, it is OK that you stand up and say "you are abusive" but that it doesn't actually work on your behalf.

 Understand that instinct and DO something else to reduce your emotional and physical connection to the carrot.

eyes

[betterdays]

Litha~ Thank you.  I feel awful, not healthy, and am trying to use meditation and imagery to counter the adrenaline reaction I have when N does this.  We have bags packed in the car, and clothing at my mother's house.  The bank account is just a baby, only 2 years old but getting very plump and grown up looking!

This board is so intelligent and supportive, it is the only one I post on. I feel people here really get it and want to move forward.  So,  although I am not here to snivel, my stomach ulcer is back for the fourth time in my marriage.  The medication is working, but this will be the last time I deal with such extreme stress symptoms. "The big, warm teet full of N supply" dried up years ago, I guess I am The Bad Mommy!



CZBZ~  Yes, so many books blame the target, but the truth is, we are hit because we move into striking range.  Think rattlesnake or Komodo Dragon. I can't re-parent a reptile!

The Happy Home is how D refers to the good madness of pets, friends, music, stargazing, and all the positive chaos we can create. We use a lot of laughter as antidote.

I detest baby talking an N, so our contact is very minimal even though he lives in part of the house.  I do not have a face to face group, and have told less than a dozen people about this.  N's coworkers used tell me all the time how lucky I am to have such a wonderful husband who does so much for me.  That's his story, and you can believe it gets better every day.

CZ, do you mean he wants me to feel crazy so he won't have to , or so he won't be alone?  That never occurred to me, but he does get really reasonable if anyone else is the least bit irrational or out of order.  He is a diagnosed N, and now says he isn't.  Unfortunately for N, I was there when the marriage counselor gave the news. N says he does not remember, but I do.

When I was younger, I tried to tell different people about the gaslighting and abuse, and they all told me he was a great guy, and I just did not appreciate him, or they shut me down.  The result was massive confusion, and I threw myself into my job because that let me stay late and come home when he was watching the late news.  I felt if I did the right thing, all else would fall in place.  "All else" has just fallen apart.



Susy, I hate Sam, too, but his sites were the first ones I found, so I read what he has up.  Melodramatic, just a bit, but some of it is right.  I have no feelings left except the same contempt N has for me.  I simply do not wish for any part of him, and will not be one of those who misses or tries to control the N.   It has been such a gift to find my old friends understand, and do not think badly of me for being with a sicko.  N has not one friend, not one person ever calls.  I know he sleeps with students, but that must certainly be for a grade.  He is really old and overweight.  His own mother does not call for his birthday.

N is a big wheel and high profile.  He will get visitation.  One very tough lawyer told me the fathers' rights movement is still big, no matter what N does to D.  He is the bio dad, and he has rights.  That's what I have seen.  If he is insistent, he will get visitation, and if D refuses, it can be court ordered and enforced.  D and her therapist say we can last a while here, but she will not last with half her time being driven crazy.  At least now I can block and divert him, and he is less toxic with both of us here than when we are alone.

Gaslight is a great movie in spite of the fact that it is dated, and Ingrid has to be "saved" by Joseph Cotten.  Hey,  might as well have been him, since Women's Lib was still decades away!  I never had to explain it to D.  She witnessed him doing things by the age of 5 and told me Daddy tore up your...Daddy threw out your...Daddy said thus and such to ...  I finally told her Daddy could not think straight, and she could, so just use her very good mind and always tell Mom when Dad was not behaving.  He told her he was afraid of me, and she should be too. FYI, nobody else has ever indicated that I am scary.   D remembers being small, in a car seat when he did that.  That hurts.


Setfree, I get nauseated, too.  You put it very well about picking at the prey till their insides are exposed.  How long did it take from the time you became neutral till he found other NS?  I want N to leave before our year is up.  This is our home, and we will leave if we have to , but we are not PD's.  Of course, right and wrong do not matter here, only power and the ability to corner or escape.  I would leave now if D would not be thrown to the wolf.

Yes, N is predictable, but he can out-argue lawyers on the stand.  He loves to testify in court and brags about what idiots other people are.  I cannot see what moves he has planned, and the nausea is very real when I realize he has set things up months in advance.  My dentist refuses to treat D and I because N insisted on paying the bills, and then did not ever pay my dentist on time.  By the time I managed to get my hands on the bill again, my dentist said it had been 3 years of overdue payments, and N did not include the late fees.  If my dentist had not liked us and been a nice guy, N would have been in collections.


eyes_up,  It is so hard to control the stomach pain that comes from being abused verbally, and wondering if he will do anything more.  I sometimes meditate and do visual imagery for 3 hours a day when N is really on a roll.  Sometimes I lie down at night, and have to sit up  rock back and forth on the edge of the bed to control the anxiety.   I have a lot of self control, I can speak on my behalf in what you call an efficient way, but I am speechless at this slimebag I have for a husband.  He IS a job, and not the one I applied for!  I find it's possible to be emotionless up to a point, and then I still get an adrenaline reaction just from his tone of voice and his following me around harassing me.  So, you are right, and I am trying.

It has done me a world of good to read your posts. I hear every word you all have said, and I know I am trying harder than I can say, but it is never enough.  I am working part time and hoping for a full time recommendation next summer.  A friend says she will name me as the one to fill a permanent temporary spot, but it won't be permanent for a year.  Then I can try for it.  Don't know if that makes sense, and sorry this is so long!

[SetURselfFREE47]

CZ, do you mean he wants me to feel crazy so he won't have to , or so he won't be alone?  That never occurred to me, but he does get really reasonable if anyone else is the least bit irrational or out of order.  He is a diagnosed N, and now says he isn't.  Unfortunately for N, I was there when the marriage counselor gave the news. N says he does not remember, but I do.


Setfree, I get nauseated, too.  You put it very well about picking at the prey till their insides are exposed.  How long did it take from the time you became neutral till he found other NS?  I want N to leave before our year is up.  This is our home, and we will leave if we have to , but we are not PD's.  Of course, right and wrong do not matter here, only power and the ability to corner or escape.  I would leave now if D would not be thrown to the wolf.

It has done me a world of good to read your posts. I hear every word you all have said, and I know I am trying harder than I can say, but it is never enough.  I am working part time and hoping for a full time recommendation next summer.  A friend says she will name me as the one to fill a permanent temporary spot, but it won't be permanent for a year.  Then I can try for it.  Don't know if that makes sense, and sorry this is so long!

First thing, YOU ARE DOING THE BEST YOU CAN! Please, please do not believe that what you are doing "is never enough". This is what the N would want you to believe, and so should not believe it, even if at first it is just to spite him. What you are doing is practically inhuman - you are living through hell all while providing your D with the worlds best medicine - laughter, love and validation. It may feel that you are putting forth all this energy (because you are!) and getting no return, but you are doing the hardest part!

I am not sure when my N found new NS, I am convinced he has not locked one in yet though am 100% sure that he has been searching. He blames it on me, which is likely. He tries to make me feel bad, instead it leaves me with a whirlpool of slight sickness, but my mind tells me that was his intention and I try to do things that make me feel better. But mostly, it comes from reminding myself what he is all really about. All I know is that neutrality works. There is this phenomenon called an "extinction burst". When you try to extinguish a certain behavior through ignoring, the behavior greatly and quickly increases, then remits. I am hoping that this is the case with my N, as I believe it to be in most N fashion. The burst lasts as long as he has not landed new NS, secured it, and moved on to charming and Nchanting them.

You are much stronger then you give yourself credit for. Do Not let your N reinforce that. YOU ARE A STRONG WOMAN. Your D is proof.

 

[betterdays]

 Thank you, your words come at the time I needed them.

[LettingGo]

You are much stronger then you give yourself credit for. Do Not let your N reinforce that. YOU ARE A STRONG WOMAN. Your D is proof.~Free

I have to second what Free said. You are an amazing Woman whose D is learning so much. It is great you have each other.

Okay you are married to a N and you want him to find new NS, so what do you do, how do you motivate him to look else where? Let me start by saying the N-game belongs to them and it is hard to beat them at their game. Does he know that you know he is cheating? If he is pathological, and the gaslighting indicates that he is, you might say oh she is just using you for a grade she doesn't really care about you, the N will be motivated to prove you wrong, so wrong in fact he might leave you for her -- oh darn right!

[betterdays]

Letting Go-

When someone close to me told me he had a gf, he denied it and a few weeks later began coming home after work.  He says now he doesn't have any more business meetings.  He isn't bringing home any more little presents, like food, which he said were from students.  When I told him I knew, I thought it was the end.  It looks to me like he cut it off, I believe because he refuses to be wrong.  I really thought by telling him I knew, he would leave. Maybe I can still work in your comment about students using him. I swear I can't chase him off with a stick.

[eyes_up]

Better days, As long as you are involved with sharing time & space with a narcissist he will be abusive towards you and your children. Your body is telling you what is not healthy. a sick stomach is a sign that the surroundings is poisonous. Narcissists are severely unhealthy people.

Even if he cuts off with what ever was talking supply He isn't going to change.

This isn't a sign that he is going to change but it can be a que that you can change.

(((hugs)))

eyes

[RB22]

I have been reading this thread with great interest..... Betterday WOW. I admire your strength and fortitude to see this thru as it is in the best interest for your D.

You already know you can't shut him up.... the only thing you can do is keep yourself out of striking distance or get yourself some help healing.

This struck me....

Yes, N is predictable, but he can out-argue lawyers on the stand.  He loves to testify in court and brags about what idiots other people are.  I cannot see what moves he has planned, and the nausea is very real when I realize he has set things up months in advance.

He MIGHT be able to out argue lawyers when he is the expert witness.... but somehow the N's brain is in fight or flight mode when his house of cards comes tumbling down.  My lawyer took X down with a very small timeline of events.....one that he agreed to all the important dates.... He couldn't remember the day he married OW.... or how much HE made for tax purposes... got cocky (with my attorney) when asked if this was his tax return... his answer  " It looks like it".   She countered with " Is that your signature?" His answer, "It looks like it."  She asked him, " Is it safe to ASSUME that this is a copy of your and mrsow's tax return?"   his answer "I assume so".   So then she asked him... "Do you or your attorney have ANY objection to this being admitted into evidence as YOUR Income tax return for the year XXXX?"   Both of them said no. 

She painted him out to be a cocky jerk... and led him along the flowered path... and the rest of us on the path to the truth. the judge saw thru his games to what was going on... and said so in his final ruling.

That was 2 years after divorce, I don't think I would have been strong enough to handle it during my divorce.

But I wanted to tell you, yes he can be taken down in a court of law.... remember.. HE has MORE TO LOOSE... his reputation is at stake... and to a N, that is extremely important.  Probably more than anything else.. they value public opinion... cause the public is where they go to cultivate the next N supply.

Hugs,

RB

[RB22]

PS.

Please do NOT share with him, any insights you have to his behaviors, anymore.  If he has a GF, document it with your attorney... get information if you can... etc..  BUT never let him know that you know or suspect. 

I caught my X this way on the stand in several lies.... all backed up with emails...written by him or his Nwife to my kids, to me... to my Boyfriend, parents, his sister... etc.  In court... if it comes from your email address... you are responsible for it.... even if you didn't write it.  Which was my X's problem.  MrsNX is also a N... and took it upon herself to give me a piece of her mind... only she signed his name regularly..... so the things she said... were HIS to own in court.  HE was NOT HAPPY about that. 

Please do not share with him anything you find and plan to use... (I KNOW... so HARD TO DO)... and keep all evidence hidden someplace safe.

Hugs,

RB

[CZBZ]

Dear betterdays (ahead!),

My timeline was extended beyond what many people must endure before divorcing the narcissist. No Contact is preferable but it is not necessary if you have the support and information that can keep you from 'falling apart' at the very sight of the narcissist. You CAN learn emotional skills to deflect the narcissist's projections without catching the f-lying balls he throws your direction. It is a more complicated way to end the relationship but it can be done. I don't push people into No Contact for one simple reason: I didn't go No Contact and never have. I've used a more modified approach which worked well in my situation.

My timeline was like this:

2001: discovered my husband was having an affair. We went to therapy and worked on reconciliation which was hindered by the lack of information I had about NPD. I assumed he was a typical marriage partner who had a spontaneous fling and wanted to restore the marriage.

2002: he left the family on Christmas morning and moved in with his girlfriend for several weeks (separation from us, but he still called on the phone)

2003: I filed for divorce and we began 'mediation' which required two years before our divorce was final

2002-2005: we worked together to finish the remodel on our home as it was 'unsellable' in the state it was in when he left. We saw each other nearly every day.   I thought I was gonna fall apart from the stress. Our divorce was finalized in December of 2005.
 
2005-2006: we had to work together to 'sell' our home after the remodel was finished which meant joint meetings with real estate agents, viewing comparable homes with her to establish a selling price, maintaining the grounds, etc.

2006: sold the home and i moved to another state but still had contact with him as we finalized our financial ties

The secret to several years of High Anxiety and Stress? Xanax and my big fat mouth. I stopped holding everything in and feeling guilty about 'telling on' my husband. Writing saved my sanity. Other people's validation saved my self-esteem. When my anxiety was so high that I could not function, I used Xanax even though the doctor only prescribed it once and I had to parcel it out like emergency rations. During the first two years, I was a nervous wreck but could not succumb to my bed because the house had to get finished and we had to get it sold, which in this market, is no easy feat. The stress? It was unbelievable! It didn't take much for my spouse to tip me into LaLaLaNd. Prior to finding information about NPD, I was so confused and yes, that made me malleable and open to the narcissist's projected craziness.

I wrote this out to let you and other people know that when it is not feasible to Cut Contact, you can still protect yourself IF you have support, information and sometimes: therapy. Each person's situation is unique. We don't all have the luxury of walking away, especially if there is a joint home, joint finances, children, work relationships, etc. IF you must remain in contact with the narcissist (or even live with him and yes, many women/men DO even after the divorce is final and they cannot afford to separate OR they cannot sell their home), it is absolutely imperative to understand how the narcissist's mind works so you can avoid becoming entangled in his distorted version of reality (which the Narcissist believes beyond the shadow of any doubt!).

When you are emotionally distraught, feel crazy, overwhelmed, confused or even find yourself obsessing about a particular conversation or incident, please post on the board. This will clarify for yourself, what is going on. Other people will write about their similar experiences and this way, your feet are grounded in reality, your self-confidence increases because you know you aren't crazy. You can trust your perceptions. What you fear happening is really happening and you can kick Denial to the curb, where it belongs.

"CZ, do you mean he wants me to feel crazy so he won't have to , or so he won't be alone?  That never occurred to me, but he does get really reasonable if anyone else is the least bit irrational or out of order. " ~betterdays

Narcissists are projection machines. Projection is one of their rigid defenses that they use to a greater or lesser degree depending on the situation. Narcissists are unaware that they are projecting and most of us unaware of narcissist's "compulsive projection", too. Most likely (and this is my opinion based on research), your husband feels like he's going crazy when his family is threatening to leave. He has such deeply embedded fears about being NOTHING and EMPTY when other people are leaving that he senses he's losing himself. This loss of self (which we all suffer to some degree if our relationship lasted a long time), is not supported by a true core self that holds us steady even when we feel as though we are worthless or falling apart. so when the narcissist is breaking away from his 'mirrors', he feels EMPTY and that makes him feel CRAZY.

Narcissists may have some awareness of their inner void, but not always. Narcissists DO have a huge fear of mental insanity. Alexander Lowen suggests in his book, Narcissism, that 'Fear of Insanity' is one of, if not the greatest fear a narcissist has.

Now most people would get themselves into therapy if they believed they were going insane, right? Not Narcissists. NO. The projection defense narcissists have used since they were children, prevents them from seeing themselves as being crazy. If they feel like they are going insane, they automatically and unconsciously project their 'craziness' onto the nearest person which would be YOU. Or even your child. I have read stories from people who wrote about the narcissist projecting insanity on a particular child. Whoever is the closest gets the blame, you see. The narcissist must vomit up his fear in insanity and if you're a handy toiletbowl, you'll be seen as the crazy one.

I write about this because anyone who is divorcing a narcissist, will feel slightly nutz or big-time nutz...depending on the circumstances. So when the narcissist is projecting his inner state of fragmentation onto YOU, you'll believe it because YOU are aware that you feel nutz. I had to make a distinction between Feeling Nutz and Catching Nutz and stop acting like a squirrel. LOL

I was accused of being crazy. Most spouses are accused of being crazy. The crazy person is the narcissist who is doing such terrible things to people who have only loved him or her and because they cannot mend their fractured selves, they PROJECT crazy onto other people and they feel EVER SO MUCH BETTER. It offers IMMEDIATE RELIEF to the narcissist if he can see CRAZY outside himself and feel so sane and smug and safe himself. You wrote about him calming down when the CRAZY SHITE was out there, instead of inside himself. AS long as other people are catching his crazy-nutz, he can fool himself into believing he is completely sane in comparison.

Projection is one of the main defenses narcissists use to make themselves feel better. But do not confuse it with the 'projection' we all do which we later reconcile. Like yelling at your child to clean her room and then noticing what a mess your own room is. That is normal. That is not pathological. The narcissist never realizes he is the MESS, not other people!

So yes! What you wrote is absolutely true: "he wants me to feel crazy so he won't have to."

If a narcissist can gaslight you to the point you really believe you are crazy, all the better for him. Now the neighbors believe it, too and his fantasy becomes even more real and satisfying to him. Why? Because now HE is this truly great and sympathetic guy who loved a crazy woman. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, isn't he Special?


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

Overtime, RB22's words have proven to be TRUE: "Please do NOT share with him, any insights you have to his behaviors, anymore.  If he has a GF, document it with your attorney... get information if you can... etc..  BUT never let him know that you know or suspect."

Let me repeat that: "Please do NOT share with him, any insights you have to his behaviors, anymore.  If he has a GF, document it with your attorney... get information if you can... etc..  BUT never let him know that you know or suspect."


I mentioned on another thread to CrystalStream that she might want to hire a private detective so she had concrete evidence in the event her husband was having an affair. Several people have done exactly that, keeping their surveillance private from the narcissist and springing it on him/her in court, before they had a chance to concoct an elaborate story. When the truth comes out and the N is 'shamed', the ANGER blows the roof off city hall. If the narcissist knows you are 'on to him', he will outsmart you with twists and turns and excuses even the judge can't sort out. Then the judge gives both people the benefit of the doubt which means GOOD for the N and BAD for you. Keep your learning, your observations, your DESIRE TO HELP THE NARCISSIST, to yourself. Let your attorney document everything he or she can. You may not need to use it but you cannot predict what the narcissist might use against you. So be over-prepared just in case.

This is one of the hardest things we have to do because we are emotionally attached to the narcissist (especially if we had children with them). We must CUT our emotional ties to the narcissist and we MUST put our welfare first and foremost.

If you or anyone feels guilty about that, post a message.  

Hugs,
CZ

P.S. I remember one woman in particular who thought her husband was having an affair and came to discover he was having numerous affairs...with her girlfriends. Some people might be resistant to hiring a detective, not because of the expense, but because they can't stand knowing the truth. I know it's so frightening and the pain is, well...indescribable. Still, you must KNOW the facts before you go to court. Believe me, the narcissist is getting the 'goods' on you and if you are fidel, he will go with calling you 'crazy'.

[Crystalstream]

Loved this post. For years I have held most of my information about ANYTHING to myself.  If I told him a story or even in general conversation told him about an incident or an experience, I felt like I was the most long winded boring person in the world.  I could hear the wheels turning, how can I make her wrong, how can I point out a different way to look at this, how can I be the most helpful "devils advocate?"
And when I did let him in on my deepest darkest, he used it against me.  "your self esteem is low, thats why you had a problem with my plan behind your back with the nurse."
Its pretty sad when you realize that you cant even carry on a conversation about the weather without feeling like you are describing it wrong.
Someday I will be glad its over.  right now I am still very scared, know what I have to do, and am praying for the wisdom and strength to do it.

[betterdays]

CZ,

I knew others had to have been through this.  Up till now I have not wanted to go the Xanax route because the pharmacy record will be a weapon for him to use.  I did call my Dr. today and made an appt, since I want to maintain my excellent r/s with D and my friends, and 3 days ago I began crying alot. Falling apart is not going to help.  I have not wanted to spend money on an investigator, since my earnings are low and it is all being banked now. N does not know how many hours I am getting, and won't till tax time next year. As soon as he begins staying out late again I think I will hire an investigator..

The bottom line is this:  I have no one except my therapist and my daughter who really, truly understands the ruthlessness of N.  My friends are very creative, funny, gentle types, and some keep asking if things have gotten better, and saying they had marital rough spots, too.  I know there are women here who still cannot believe the level of hatred their husbands have for them, but I do. So this may sound harsh, but I want to thank you for not doing the mindless harping about NC, and he doesn't love you , and all that. In the words of Cool Hand Luke (Paul Newman),  "I got my mind right, Boss."   I do not need toughlove.  I need a friend who can say, take the xanax, have him followed. Thank you.

I know I seem like a proactive type, but inside I am pretty scared of N and unsure of how to handle him  I do not respond to him or the gaslighting, to the best of my ability.  D just told me she remembers him freaking out when she was with him at work, and she tried to get into his candy drawer at work.  She said it was 3 years ago, but she felt then he had something very secret in there, and he said he did not keep the candy in that drawer any more.  I know I could look, but right now the adrenaline gets too overwhelming. 

Crystalstream, N has always told me "I can't believe you think there's anything between OW and me.  You need help."  I knew better, just like you.  But N was right, I did need help.  Now I have that help.  She is an attorney, and a therapist, and my own bank account, and job.

[LettingGo]

In the words of Cool Hand Luke (Paul Newman),  "I got my mind right, Boss."

You are not N-chanted and you have WoN!
 

She is an attorney, and a therapist, and my own bank account, and job.

Sounds very proactive to me. You are not sitting home feeling sorry for yourself. You are putting your escape plan together, you see things as they are and not as you wish they were and you are finding the support you need. Mentally you have already left the KoN so when you are physically gone that will be tying up loose ends.

[RB22]

Betterdays,

As for the Xanax..... have your therapist or Dr.. get you samples from the drug rep.    If they work... have your vet (or a friends vet) write a prescription for your dog for thunderstorm anxiety.  LOL... I was on Xanax for awhile... my scrip ran out about the time he was taking me back to court.  My dog was going nuts... too many changes... so she became attached to my hip... and her anxiety mirrored my own.  She was put on Xanax... about 1/4 of my dose.  I asked the vet if I could take my dogs.. if I needed it.  She said yes... so dog and I 'shared' her scrip.    X had nothing for court. He tried but once he left... I somehow found my depression cleared up and got off those meds... The anxiety of dealing with him and 4 children... and his wife... well I needed help from Xanax.... and it worked.

Hugs,

RB

[CZBZ]

Dear betterdays,

I wonder if your attorney could present a defense about your state of anxiety living with your X. Xanax is what I took for stress, which didn't look well for the X. You can talk to your attorney about that, but at least he or she can be prepared should your husband bring it up in court.

My daughter doled out the Xanax for awhile, whenever she'd see me spinning. Yes, I was that overwhelmed and anxious.   As you said, you need to maintain good relationships with the people in your life and even the best of our friends tire of watching us cry. (We never tire of tears on WoN, though. Promise!) For that reason, we might need a little help from Xanax.

(I've never heard of taking the dog's presecription, RB! How clever...I swear, women will find a way!)

"D just told me she remembers him freaking out when she was with him at work, and she tried to get into his candy drawer at work.  She said it was 3 years ago, but she felt then he had something very secret in there, and he said he did not keep the candy in that drawer any more.  I know I could look, but right now the adrenaline gets too overwhelming."~betterdays

When a narcissist is invading other people's boundaries (like having an affair or conniving behind their backs), he might be hypersensitive to other people invading HIS boundaries. Like the desk drawer. There may not be anything in there but just the idea that she is invading his private 'territory' will set him off. That may be caused by HIM invading her 'territory' (the right to feel safe and trust her father).

I wanted to make one more point about No Contact which many people seem oblivious to: the biggest danger a woman faces is when she leaves. No Contact is a helpful way for people to restore their sense of self but it can also backfire. Just a word of caution and another reason why I do not give quick answers to people. EAch person here knows more about their relationship than I do and you also know more about your partner than I do. We have to trust our intuition on this one.

We need a couple of articles about modified No Contact. I notice on forums that the quickest and only advice is "Run!" and if you don't go No Contact, people terrorize YOU as if they know everything there is to know about your relationship.   Basically, people are stating as emphatically as possible that narcissists are not worthy partners and YOU deserve to have someone who loves you for who you are. Not who the narcissists wants you to be.

We need a couple of good articles about No Contact that people can refer to...I am working on it.  

" I know there are women here who still cannot believe the level of hatred their husbands have for them, but I do. "

the level of hatred women like ourselves experience is unfathomable. There were moments when I truly felt crazy because I could not imagine the malice in my husband's eyes. It is terrifying. When the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, you must find an excuse to leave the situation or the room without escalating their anger. It can be frightening leaving a narcissist and for those who sense their lives are in danger, No Contact can actually be a very bad answer.
 
Hugs,
CZ

[eyes_up]

"When a narcissist is invading other people's boundaries (like having an affair or conniving behind their backs), he might be hypersensitive to other people invading HIS boundaries. Like the desk drawer. There may not be anything in there but just the idea that she is invading his private 'territory' will set him off. That may be caused by HIM invading her 'territory' (the right to feel safe and trust her father)." ~ CZ

Been thinking about this statement with the tendency to think that it is not about a narcissist boundaries , because I do not think they have boundaries in any direction, but it is about control... again control and power over equals supply.

Looking back on all the areas , spots and events that were off limits or what ever the conditions...  these forbidden or secret or controlled  places that are so important are there for a reason... the target is the one who gives those places importance and the narcissist sets it up knowing what it means to the target by observing behaviors like a math equation.

 Secrets / the unknown are tools for gas lighting and manipulating to create supply. I don't actually think it has to do with boundaries. But what you say above CZ at first made a lot of sense and the use of territory does make sense. Territory is control of an object. Boundaries are internal territory which are non negotiable. External is always negotiable and also an object. My bicycle My blanket, my computer all of which are not selves but boundaries pertain to a true self.

I thought more about it... knowing that Narcissist do not have boundaries, they have no true self to establish boundaries but what they do have is an object self, a created self and illusionary self (object) that wheels & deals with objects.

So what this is about is control. That is the way I see it. Control to produce supply. What is supply? It is the power to manipulate an objects (person) reactions and emotional climate. Power over the person state of mind and state of being. The object reacts, the objects interest and attention is on the position of the object.

A secret drawer may or may not contain something of  value. But it sure as heck creates curiosity and wonder. It hold a subjects attention.

What comes of all this is wasting precious time and energy. There are better things to do then sit around focusing on if mr. N is having an affair. I mean if it can not be talked about openly then what is the use of any of it? It is a huge life sucker. That is what it came down to for me. Other wise I am just spinning my wheels around this secret drawer and that woman over there. My personal power is being used to  energize and bring to life the narcissists blank objects. I give the objects power.  They are blank until the emotional supply unit comes along and gives it meaning.

I am not really incline after considering and reviewing the idea of a narcissist so called boundaries, that it is a boundary issue as much as it is the usual power, control and manipulation issue.

The reason being is that when the narcissist used to set up areas that were off limits (untouchables) ... of course that drove me mad... as soon as I took my attention out of those things ... new objects would arise and positioned  in the same fashion. If I lost interest or just abided by the rule (ignore) then the narcissist would have to find something to engage my attention with and all of a sudden the old objects evaporated. I was no longer engaging and no longer reacting so they essentially delivered no supply.

Narcissist live in a world of objects. The narcissist self is an object. They temporarily feast on other peoples ability  to create meaning because they can not do it. When something has ones attention it also has meaning... creating meaning is a personal power.

As empathetic beings / people who experience empathy and the entire dimension of meaning ... we grant the narcissist from moment to moment what he can not do or experience for himself. He needs this and he is dependent on objects reactions and meanings for external power.


It is important to some what understand this "object" kind of reality. Not that it will ultimately be understood but that it is nothing like being involved with life in a 3 or four dimensional manner.

As the supply unit, I give an object my meaning. The narcissist plans on this. He works to manipulate this. He reads signs and signals like math ... working with the emotional vocabulary of his targets (suppliers).

As I write this out I think... who in the heck needs to wonder if a narc is cheating or if one should be engaging in a relationship? Narcissism as a pathology is just that and it is an mental illness. The best answer is to not be involved on a personal and emotional level with this kind of individual.

Stake out his secret drawer, hire a detective to uncover his lies ~ what ever it is, but in the finality, create a life that grows.

 Detach emotionally  and make use of a detective in order to make his lies public so that you can leave with out going broke. Other then that ... it is an illness and energy should be put to getting healthy since enmeshment is but one of the results as well as a constituent of being in this kind of relationship.

So many things to do in working towards health that the least of it is if the narc is "boinking" the nurse as well as the cheer leading squad.

eyes

[honeybearII]

You are so right in this, eyes.  In the end it was NOT about the affairs.  I could have lived with and forgiven those things.  In the final analysis it was the LIES that drove me bonkers.  Even when everything was out there and he COULD HAVE BEEN TRUTHFUL, he chose to continue the lies.  That is when I realized lying was what he DID.  It was his way of attempting to control the situation and to attempt to keep me in his web.

We waste an inordinate amount of time fretting over whether the N is boinking someone else.  In my experience, and in many years on this site, I can say without hesitation OF COURSE HE IS.  If they aren't physically involved with someone, they are into emotional affairs, computer porn, dating websites.  It is a constant search for Other Supply and once we realize that this is WHO THEY ARE, then if we need proof, I say go for it.  Check out the "secret places".  Open the desk drawers.  Check the computer or get someone who will.  Hire a detective to follow him.

BUT!! If you decide to do this, be prepared to accept what you will discover, because usually it is what we have suspected all along.  Even if you know one thing, as my therapist said, "what you KNOW is usually only the tip of the iceberg".  Ns are masters of deceit so if you find him out in one thing, you can believe that there is a lot more that is going on, or went on, that you may NEVER know.

Honey

[CZBZ]

"When a narcissist is invading other people's boundaries (like having an affair or conniving behind their backs), he might be hypersensitive to other people invading HIS boundaries. Like the desk drawer. There may not be anything in there but just the idea that she is invading his private 'territory' will set him off. That may be caused by HIM invading her 'territory' (the right to feel safe and trust her father)." ~ CZ

"Been thinking about this statement with the tendency to think that it is not about a narcissist boundaries , because I do not think they have boundaries in any direction, but it is about control... again control and power over equals supply." ~Eyes_Up


Well...hummm...if we are discussing ego boundaries, then it's fair to say the narcissist (a severe narcissistic pathology) has no boundaries because they have no True Self. If we are talking about Space, the narcissist definitely has boundaries concerning what he or she determines to be 'their private space.' Which of course can still be confusing because with a True Narc, 'what's theirs is theirs and what's yours is theirs, too'. ha! I am sure there are more precise ways to convey my point, which is: invading the narcissist's territory and inciting his automatic ANGER or even rage for having done so.

Betterdays' story replicated a situation in my life. This happened prior to me finding out about 'the affair' (of which there were probably many but that's beside the point, really.)

We were hosting a family reunion in our home, celebrating my parent's 50th anniversary and marital bliss (not!) hehehe...and we decided to play a bingo game as a group with numerous gifts on the table when someone got a Bingo. In our particularly sadistic version of the game, anyone who got a bingo could choose from the stack of wrapped gifts on the table OR they could take someone else's opened gift in their private stash.

When someone opened their prize, it was my favorite string of pearls, confiscated from my jewelry chest. LOL...and then someone opened their prize, and it was my husband's pocket watch, retrieved from his private dresser drawer.

Well, the man flew into a rage screaming at everyone at our table for invading his boundaries. He was furious that they disprected him so much as to snoop around in his drawer and take his pocket watch. (what else was in that drawer, I wonder now though at the time, I didn't think about that. I was always respectful of people's private space, even my kids' rooms. Whatever secrets my spouse had were safe from me, and he knew that).

This practical and harmless joke triggered a rage so ugly and fearful that everyone in my family was in shock. My brother-in-law pushed his chair back from the table, preparing to run;a couple of siblings started crying and apologizing to my husband and i, of course, felt torn between protecting my husband's 'space' and laughing about how hilarious it was to see our things amongst the gifts; which of course, would FORCE me to take my pearls back from someone who kinda liked 'em and wanted to keep 'em. It was a way to turn ME into a capitalisit which was really really funny to my sister who did the snooping.

So Betterdays' story triggered this memory and my response about the narcissist reacting to someone invading his 'boundaries' was intended to show another form of projection. HE was definitely invading OUR boundaries as a family by having a secret affair that threatened family solidarity. I don't believe he was conscious of his projection...

I'm not sure what the proper terminology might be to describe the narcissist's boundaries (control of space) because we are not discussing ego boundaries of 'the self'.

Narcissists are likely to have Private Space even within the family space. A locked room, a locked drawer, space that only they control. I hope this clarifies what I'd written.  


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

"There are better things to do then sit around focusing on if mr. N is having an affair." ~Eyes_Up

I feel it is very important to focus on whether or not the narcissist is having a secret affair and living a double life with his family at home. This speaks to the fractured self, the one that can PRETEND to be loving and at the same time, do something very very UNLOVING. The double facade tells the tale here. People have affairs, it is true---but do they manipulate their family to believe they are even more committed than ever? I don't think so.

also, the affair/porn/strip clubs tend to be teh Final Straw that we cannot deny. This is another REALITY CHECK for people like myself who can dismiss verbal abuse as frustration (and normal) and even dismiss physical abuse (assuming our share of responsibility for escalating or precipitating the abuse). An affair however, is a betrayal that impacts the betrayed on many, many levels and no, we did NOT share any responsibility for a partner's choice to have an affair. They made that choice themselves which in a horrible way, starts our SEPARATION from the enmeshment. It hurts...it really hurts but oftentimes, this pain is the only way to gain a realistic picture of the dysfunctional dynamics. (Or abusive dynamics, as is more likely to be the case...but we can sneak up on that truth by first admitting the relationship is dysfunctional.)

Also, affairs STILL have legal consequences in some states more than others. Documenting an affair offers incontrovertible proof to protect yourself in court and potentially impact the final judgment. Depending on the number of affairs, a judge may be inclined to view the divorce in favor of the 'betrayed' which works best if the narcissist has no knowledge of the documentation beforehand. Focusing on the affair IS a valuable process. It begins our healthy process of separation and it just might tip the scales in court to protect the 'innocent'. It has also been useful for determining child custody---depending on the number and frequency of affairs.

In one situation we had on our forum, the judge awarded the wife 90% of assets after her attorney proved her husband had had countless affairs, even bringing the 'other women' into their home for family dinners. They had so much evidence about his serial infidelity, that they had documented over several months of surveillance, that the judge was sickened by his behavior. Had this WoN member not focused on the affair and only focused on his 'narcissism', she'd have gotten 50% of the estate and 50% shared custody.

Having a diagnosis, even by a professional, is irrelevant to the case. That's my sense after reading news stories of women who warned the judge their partner was BPD or NPD or AsPD and it made NO difference in the outcome. Occasionally, someone WINS in court with a stack of documentation on REAL EVIDENCE. You can't prove someone has a personality disorder, even with an official diagnosis. But VIDEOTAPES? Yea, that gets you somewhere.

Also, this woman subpoened her 'friends' who had had an affair with her husband. They had their humiliating day in court, too. She had the most successful outcome I've ever seen but she was prepared and she was not focused on his 'narcissism'. (Other than learning how the narcissistic personality operates so she better understood what she was dealing with).

She was focused on what he DID. This is exactly what we must do---pay attention and videotape what they DO.


Hugs,
CZ