Counterfeit Love vs. Authentic Love

[LettingGo]

Counterfeit Love vs. Authentic Love

How do you tell the difference so that you can avoid being N-chanted by another insidious N?

[/b]

My Best Friend was the first person in my life who showed me what Authentic Love was all about, so I married him.
What distinguishes him from the Counterfeits I N-countered in my life, those that I lived w/in the KON, those that I became friends with and those I dated?  

The two main traits/characteristics that Ns lack are Empathy and Remorse, so Authentic Love would definitely included these very essential ingredients. What else can we add to the list?

The very first thing that comes to mind when I think about my Best Friend is he has a quality that the others lack, which is Honor. How does one describe Honor?

—Synonyms
1.  probity, uprightness. Honor, honesty, integrity, sincerity  refer to the highest moral principles and the absence of deceit or fraud. Honor  denotes a fine sense of, and a strict conformity to, what is considered morally right or due: a high sense of honor; on one's honor. Honesty  denotes the presence of probity and particularly the absence of deceit or fraud, esp. in business dealings: uncompromising honesty and trustworthiness. Integrity  indicates a soundness of moral principle that no power or influence can impair: a man of unquestioned integrity and dependability. Sincerity  implies absence of dissimulation or deceit, and a strong adherence to truth: His sincerity was evident in every word. 3.  deference, homage; reverence, veneration. Honor, consideration, distinction  refer to the regard in which one is held by others. Honor  suggests a combination of liking and respect: His colleagues held him in great honor. Consideration  suggests honor because of proved worth: a man worthy of the highest consideration. Distinction  suggests particular honor because of qualities or accomplishments: She achieved distinction as a violinist at an early age. 5.  distinction. 13.  esteem, venerate.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honor

What Distinguishes Counterfeit Love vs. Authentic Love?
Whether or not you have found Authentic Love in your life,
What other characteristics would you say separate Counterfeit Love from Authentic Love?
(If you could put them in bold type that would be great!)

[betterdays]

This is what I hope for, one day.

[LettingGo]

Betterdays, if you were going to make an Authentic Love List -- What would be on your list?

[betterdays]

Well, the way you pinpointed honor, that's the way I feel about decency.  I have a terrible time putting a name to things, and when I relax and let the N issues slither out of me (that's how I visualize it),  what comes to mind is that some men and women are fundamentally decent.  That's in the same vein as honor, for me.  It is the quality of a person with standards, who will not sink low, who will look for the best outcome for everyone. 

How did you meet your best friend?  Has he been burned by an N, too?  The more I talk to my friends, the more it's like substance abuse--if they haven't been through it, someone in their family has. 

[LettingGo]

some men and women are fundamentally decent.  That's in the same vein as honor, for me.  It is the quality of a person with standards, who will not sink low, who will look for the best outcome for everyone.~Betterdays

Yes, Decent goes hand-in-hand w/Honor.

How did you meet your best friend?  Has he been burned by an N, too? ~Betterdays

Before I became Best Friends w/my H he had a Counterfeit Best Friend. They went to high school together, pledged the same fraternity together, took the same classes and were pretty much inseparable. Some of the Fellow Frat bros questioned if they might be gay. They were not. They both had a healthy interest in the ladies as any young College Guy. They were so close that they had the same bank pin number. One day my H could not find his versa-teller card. He looked everywhere in his car, his room, etc., a few days passed and the Counterfeit Best Friend was in the passenger seat and said, hey look what I found! The card supposably slipped out of my H's wallet (however my H checked that same spot several times) -- his first experience w/Gaslighting. A day or so later and my H receives his bank statement and he found out during those days his card was missing, w/draws were made, if I recall correctly it went 100, 200, 300, 200 for a total of $800.00, you could see the Counterfeit tried it the first day, got away with it, got greedy and went back to withdraw more and more. The withdraws were from banks one by College and the others near his home and all during times when the Counterfeit said he was busy doing something else. The Counterfeit accused me of stealing the card and putting it back in my H's car -- however, (1) I didn't own a car to drive myself to these banks (2) did not know his pin number like the Counterfeit. (3) wasn't in his car the days the card was stolen and placed back in the car. (4) Some of the w/draws were made when I was either in class or at work. It was very hard for my H to face the painful Truth about his Counterfeit Best Friend, he was N-chanted. Had the Counterfeit just asked my H to borrow the money he would have given it to him. The back story, both my H and this Counterfeit were both interested in dating me. We all remained friends for awhile, my H and I became close friends and then we began dating, the Counterfeit continued to flirt w/me and I had to privately tell my H to tell his "friend" that I choose my H and I don't want him to flirt w/me, this Counterfeit also had a high school senior girlfriend he was suppose to be committed to, but hooked up w/other ladies. After the N-chantment Spell was broken my H was able to identify all the   like pathological liar to his parents, employer, girlfriend, teachers, friends, etc.

My H is a very Honorable Man and assumes others are like him, so he has learned the hard way. We both use to look at the world very differently, he always assumed the best and I the worst. For me you had to prove you were trustworthy and for him you had to prove that you weren't. He always gave someone the benefit of the doubt and for me, my motto was, if there was doubt you kick em out! A line from one of my first writings after I went NC from the Serpent Mother is, My mother instead of healing the hurt, covered it up, and made is worse. She hissed, in the future, you will see, you must attack first, if you want to be strong like me. We are all snakes you know, and this is how it is when your family is your foe. The Serpent Mother tried her best to teach me her ways. My H and I came from very different worlds. His was not perfect and had its dysfunction, but nothing like what I endured. I use to say that he looked through the world through rose-colored glasses and it is a dog eat dog world in which he will be eaten alive. He was raised Catholic and I was raised by a Psycho who happened to be an Atheist. Before I became a Christian I use to joke w/him, I will get you through this world and you get me to Heaven.

[peartree]

hi guys
this is a gr8 thread ! i think as the N i knew was v covert and seemed to be this perfect guy this is a tricky Q for me. i guess in my case it was to watch what happened when i wasnt playing the game, positive mirroring him, letting him behave how he wanted then the mask slipped. no N rage or anything v obvious, but silent treatment, abandonment and D&D. no discussion just cutting me off. it was shocking to me as i thought he was the kinda guy you could have an open and adult and fair discussion with. not so if he wasnt getting his way. that was the big a-haaa for me (though it did take a few times for me to see it !)
i agree with others here, authentic love is mutual and well, loving. wanting the best for each party and doing best to understand and empathise with each other. not about punishment and having power over.
hugs
peartree x x x

[Litha]

LettingGo, I've always thought of it as Honesty, but I think your choice of the word Honor is much better.

I would add Respectful to your list. If my partner is empathetic and honorable, but conveys a sense that he thinks I am less deserving of respect than he is, that would not work as love for me. I am a strong, competent, successful, intellligent human being. I have accomplished some pretty amazing things on my own. I would need a partner who recognizes all of that.

Having spent too many years of my life in the KoN, I have experienced too much disrespect to tolerate any more. In the KoN, "love" means a jealous response to my successes and a delighted response to my failures. I want a partner who cheers for me when I succeed, and provides empathy when I fail. Is that too much to ask? I hope not.

 
Litha

[betterdays]

So, if these qualities are important to us, why is the N just the opposite?  Can it be that we became aware and valued these character traits because of N's lack of them?  I remember reading about studies that showed values are consistent over a lifetime, once formed, usually in adolescence.  This means we valued honest, decent humans who had respect and integrity.  What I hear over and over is that N's fool almost everyone, and we are taken in with their acts.  They do know early on that they are different, and watch to imitate and convince.  I feel that other N's can spot an N, but we are busy enjoying and working and figuring our lives out.  N sees, and watches for any space, or need, to fill with the act.  When the act disappears, there are all these holes in our lives.  I hope they can be patched by good, honest, respectful, and decent people, and that those people are not all gone by the time we rid ourselves of N's.

[eyes_up]

My experience now days is that it is easy to spot a narcissist and not because I am a narcissist on the level of unhealthy or malignant.

Narcissist appeal to needs. they do not deliver what is needed but they appeal to needs and to vulnerabilities.

Knowing what that looks like, another persoN appealing to your needs and vulnerabilities is an important factor in  spotting a narcissist.



Here are some of the rules I go by.

I have to know my needs best and be able to provide for myself best.

I have to know my vulnerabilities and understand when some one is appealing to them. I have to be aware of when this is happening. I have to beable to discern the structure.

If I wake up feeling needy and go looking for some one to provide for me with  out an once of the ability to take care of a major portion of it myself then I would consider myself in trouble.

In other words I lack personal power to change my own mood or gift my own desire.

along comes a narcissist with the ability to give me what I need.

No one has every thing I need. 10 people can not take care of all my needs. I am my own primary care taker.

It is easy for me to spot a narcissist because the first thing they do is begin with in conversation addressing what they think I need. I need attention ... I need compliments to help me feel good about being me, feeling accepted.

We all need acceptance but how much have I accepted myself? If I have not done that then I will need something and some one outside of myself to fill the enormous gap.

By reducing needs and being able to take care of many of them myself I do not need all that a narcissist offers. N's offer but again they do not provide what they promise.

There is a narcissist in a class I had on Saturday. I didn't just call him a narc from day one. It took some time. It requires ONE one on one conversation apart form the class to determine he is in fact a flaming narc.

the conversation was way off. I felt uncomfortable from about the 8th sentence which would be 4 each. He decides to try to appeal to me through the practice of yoga and the ideal of enlightenment. At first I was going with my teacher voice. But then it became all too apparent that he was trying to get in with me by stepping over boundaries. He talked about his wife not having any breasts, flat chested and that this didn't really matter to him.

OK Buddy, this is none of my business. I know your wife. She certified me in Pilates. I don;t care if you are so wonderful that you find flat chested women to be sexy.

Then when he started suggesting I come to a party where we could talk more about enlightenment... that just about did it for me.


Now, When I see him in class he has a project. His project is a nice woman who is good looking but has no self esteem. She constantly is getting things done to the skin on her face. I have talked to her about this. She is very self conscious of her looks and nothing is good enough.

When I enter class he is all stinky and sweating and orbiting around her teaching her yoga. Through the years I have seen him do this with an array of women. It is always the same thing. One week I had to tell him to stop while class is on.

He is an old man and his pilates instructor wife is around 15 or more years younger.

It is possible for me to describe at least 10 other people off the top of my head with the same N-typical behaviors. I meet them, I talk to them and I get it real fast.

Another thing is ... am I grounded or centered in self or am I oriented around others? Do other peoples behaviors , word and other, provide me with my sense and connection to self?

first come self connection and that turns into connection with others.

When I was connecting to narcissists I was not connected with myself. I was connecting with an unknown self through what the narcissist had to say or do.

Aligning with people in terms of similarities is great but I do not need others to provide me with similarities to make proof of my existence or experience.It is merely an addition to what already exists. It develops from what is already established.


If any one ever again ever tells me how wonderful I am I will tell them to find another location. I know me and I know my inherent value of existence. I don't need an echo. Literally. I do not need worship but I would enjoy sharing. Narcs do not share, they sell items and control objects.

It is an interesting thing to understand  but nothing more than that. I prefer that which is inspiring.

eyes

[SetURselfFREE47]

I have to know my needs best and be able to provide for myself best.

I have to know my vulnerabilities and understand when some one is appealing to them. I have to be aware of when this is happening. I have to beable to discern the structure.

If I wake up feeling needy and go looking for some one to provide for me with  out an once of the ability to take care of a major portion of it myself then I would consider myself in trouble.

In other words I lack personal power to change my own mood or gift my own desire.

along comes a narcissist with the ability to give me what I need.

No one has every thing I need. 10 people can not take care of all my needs. I am my own primary care taker.

It is easy for me to spot a narcissist because the first thing they do is begin with in conversation addressing what they think I need. I need attention ... I need compliments to help me feel good about being me, feeling accepted.

We all need acceptance but how much have I accepted myself? If I have not done that then I will need something and some one outside of myself to fill the enormous gap.

By reducing needs and being able to take care of many of them myself I do not need all that a narcissist offers. N's offer but again they do not provide what they promise.

Another thing is ... am I grounded or centered in self or am I oriented around others? Do other peoples behaviors , word and other, provide me with my sense and connection to self?

first come self connection and that turns into connection with others.

When I was connecting to narcissists I was not connected with myself. I was connecting with an unknown self through what the narcissist had to say or do.

Aligning with people in terms of similarities is great but I do not need others to provide me with similarities to make proof of my existence or experience.It is merely an addition to what already exists. It develops from what is already established.

If any one ever again ever tells me how wonderful I am I will tell them to find another location. I know me and I know my inherent value of existence. I don't need an echo. Literally. I do not need worship but I would enjoy sharing. Narcs do not share, they sell items and control objects.

It is an interesting thing to understand  but nothing more than that. I prefer that which is inspiring.

eyes

  THANK YOU so much for your words. I feel like these should be taped to my desk and be read every single day - so empowering and oh so true! I appreciate your strength and your shared words of (very very very) hard earned wisdom.

  Free

[SetURselfFREE47]

So, if these qualities are important to us, why is the N just the opposite?  Can it be that we became aware and valued these character traits because of N's lack of them? 

The N is the opposite because they are masters are sniffing out their prey. They look to find all the qualities in someone they do not have in themselves- mainly, a huge heart that encompasses patience, understanding, and above all else (at first at least) the willingness to make excuses and see "the good" in them. We are fooled to believe that they in fact DO have the important qualities we look for and they do so by acting and mirroring us. That is how the wool can be pulled over our eyes, they are that good. They have to be. That is how they exist in life, no more no less. They have spent their life manipulating, mirroring, lying, and being full of deceit. Just as we are full of love naturally, they are naturally empty. That is why it is a "personality" disorder - it is permanent. It is just how they are. And I hate saying that. My profession is founded on the belief that people can change. I believe this belief is thrown out the window, as it should be, with N's. Same with sociopaths. Cant teach an old dog new tricks, cant teach someone who cannot feel any emotion to suddenly "get it". It is an impossibility. It is a damn shame.

You all ready valued those character traits, which is how he knew how to act.  He gave you what you wanted, but did so with a mischievous twinkle in his unemotional eye. Having N's for parents though, I knew what I did not want and that was to be like them, even though I did not yet understand fully what that even meant.

I hope some of that helps clarify your questions - and they are great questions to be asking!

  Free

[peartree]

hi eyes
thanks for your wonderfully clear and astute post. saving your words for future ref etc !!
i think i am better at spotting covert Ns and maintaining early and firm boundaries around them but this helps enormously and names what i am doing.
thanks so much !
peartree x x x x

[Legs]

Eyes,

 Thank you for that post. I have really been agonizing over that...why do I seek them out or how do I bring them to me over and over again....I see now their part in it and how and why they do it, and you helped me see my part in it with actual concrete things to pay attention to.

Someday I am going to put all the parts together. Thanks again everyone here....I feel like I talk to my wise sisters here


xoxo, Legs

[honeybearII]

Authentic love CHERISHES the other person.  That is a word I would NEVER ascribe to my marriage to the N, but which I experience every day with my now-husband. 
Honey

[LettingGo]

Peartree & Litha -- Mutual Respect, is essential for Authentic Love.

I would add Respectful to your list. If my partner is empathetic and honorable, but conveys a sense that he thinks I am less deserving of respect than he is, that would not work as love for me. I am a strong, competent, successful, intellligent human being. I have accomplished some pretty amazing things on my own. I would need a partner who recognizes all of that. ~Litha

Oh I so get that! When I first met my In-Laws I told my H right away that if he is looking for a Work-at-Home, Super Woman like his Mom whose H does not respect her amazing contribution, then he had better look somewhere else. It takes two people to create and maintain a home, everyone has a very important part. My H did not like how when his Dad came home from work he just wanted to be catered to and did not take part in taking care of the children, the house, etc. It is very sad to see their interactions at times. They treated one another as adversaries rather than friends who share the same goals & dreams. They are doing much better now, but my SILs still express concern that their Father does not value their Mother and should treat her better.

Two other essential ingredients would have to be Valued & Appreciation, and as Honey put it Cherished, not just for what I do and how I meet your specific needs, or how I make you feel about your Self, but just because who I am. I am not just some person filling a role in your life, like some employee who can be substituted or replaced is someone comes along who can fulfill my position equal to or even better than I. I am unique, indispensable, absolutely necessary; essential part of this relationship and not to be disregarded. I Treasure my H and my D, not only because of what they do and how I feel when I am with them, or even because they love me -- which is so awesome, but simply because of who they are. Sometimes I don't like what they do, or what they say and their behavior can anger and frustrate me, but it never changes how I feel about them, I love them.

[LettingGo]

Betterdays & Eyes, bring up a great point. We must have the ability to distinguish between Counterfeit vs. Authentic Love And we need to know how to detect if someone is trying to N-chant us.  

Narcissist appeal to needs. they do not deliver what is needed but they appeal to needs and to vulnerabilities.

Knowing what that looks like, another persoN appealing to your needs and vulnerabilities is an important factor in  spotting a narcissist. ~Eyes

The N is the opposite because they are masters are sniffing out their prey. They look to find all the qualities in someone they do not have in themselves- mainly, a huge heart that encompasses patience, understanding, and above all else (at first at least) the willingness to make excuses and see "the good" in them. We are fooled to believe that they in fact DO have the important qualities we look for and they do so by acting and mirroring us. ~SeturselfFree

The N-counter is a D4 experience of Deception, Devaluing, Discard and Devastation. The Deception begins w/the N-chantment Stage, The Hook. Ns are experts at detecting the "missing pieces" w/in someone and they fill it, or better yet they create a deceptive illusion of filling it. They play a cleaver game of Smoke and Mirrors. They Mirror to us what they think we need and we Mirror back to them what we think they are and what they want to be. Sure they wear a Mask, but when the N-Smoke/Fog becomes so thick we can not see what is occurring then the N-chantment Spell is complete and we become the mask they wear. "I am the Mask you wear" ~ Christine, from Phantom of the Opera. These (4) Stages of Deception, Devaluing, Discard and Devastation do not have a clear beginning and end to them, rather they flow one into another so quickly it keeps our minds spinning. For example, during the Deception Stage the Devaluing also begins, with very small Compromises which results in Devaluing our Self. This is one reason I truly believe Ns are evil, because they actually enjoy getting someone to compromise his or her Self. Every time the N gets us to compromise we lose a bit of our Self and we look to the person who stole it to give it back and of course they not only refuse, but they take a little more every time we try to regain what we previously lost. They will use our own guilt to their wicked advantage reminding us of it every chance they get in order to prep us for the next compromise. They slaughter our self-esteem and then turn around and slam us for not having any. Then when we are crushed play the Super Hero and do something unexpectedly super nice, build us up just to knock us back down. This Trauma Bonding shoves The Hook deeper. Great brainwashing technique to instill Undying Loyalty used in Cults, Hazing and Boot Camp. It is an evil game of Follow the Leader. It keeps us guessing reality and most importantly our Self. Our mind is constantly spinning w/Cognitive Dissonance.

No wonder we start to see our Selves as Less-Than. When we see ourselves as defective in comparison to others, we lower our own value. When we don't value Self and constantly look outward for validation and rely on the perception of others & validation from others, then they can keep lowering the bar on us. It is like playing a Deadly Game of Limbo and the N holds the robe. We look to the Ns for the standard and bend over backwards to make them happy. We keep bending backwards until we loose all balance and fall flat on the floor and the Ns can walk all over us. It is only by knowing Self and can stand in the Truth that we are valuable, unique and priceless that we can refuse to play their Devaluing Game. Each time we stay instead of leaving after we have been devalued we invest or lose more and more of our Self.

In N-relationships we play a Cognitive Dissonance Mind Game with our Self, He loves me and He loves me NOT and we disproportionately give too much weight to the false or Counterfeit Evidence of He loves me and not enough weight to the Authentic Evidence of He Loves me NOT. We forget to do real math when we are N-chanted in the KON, we begin to do N-math, instead of looking for evidence that He loves me Not we look for evidence that He love me. It looks something like this; He loves me not, He loves me not, He loves me not, He loves me not, He loves me not, He loves me, He loves me not, He loves me not, He loves me not, He loves me not, -- Conclusion, I found evidence that He loves me!

This is referred to as Confirmation Bias, which highly educated scientific researchers are also guilty doing with their experiments. Check out the link below! We do it to ourselves so there is no surprise we do it in regards to others.
Social psychologists have identified two processes in the way people seek or interpret information about themselves that are served by confirmation biases: self-verification, the drive to reinforce the existing self-image, and self-enhancement, the tendency to seek positive feedback. In experiments where people are given feedback that conflicts with their self-image, they are less likely to attend to it or remember it than when given self-verifying feedback. They reduce the impact of such information by interpreting it as unreliable. Similar experiments have found a preference for positive feedback, and the people who give it, over negative feedback.
Here is a great link to read up more on Confirmation Bias--I would call it a Must Read for another reason why we stay N-chanted,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Ns can not stand to be your equals. They must be your Hero, your Savior, your Messiah, and when they can not have this role, they Devalue the Mask (you) and throw it down and reveal their true identity -- the Monster. Then they must Discard the Mask (you) because it is no longer of use to disguise their true identity. We are no longer Mirroring back to them the False Persona/Image and have exposed them for the fraudulent Counterfeit they truly are. Until they have found our replacement, they do their best to convince us that we are a Broken Mirror. There is an attempt on our part for a role reversal, we put on the big red cape and try to be Hero to an N which is something Ns will not stand for and as CZ said in her post, Spilling Your Guts,
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7233.0.html
We become vulnerable and Self Sacrifice in order to "Save the N" who takes great offense to our Heroic Effort & Expression of Unconditional Love and gains powerful ammunition for the final act of Devastation. Ns are either unwilling or unable to be friends because that means Equality and there is no meaning/value in that for them, no NS to gain. They must be your Hero or they will be your Nemesis.

Exposure & Pattern Recognition are key elements to obliterating the N-chantment Spells and to prevent re-N-Chantment.  Not only exposing Ns, but exposing ourselves to how healthy true love looks, sounds, feels, and behaves. By doing this we begin to break the N-chantment by comparing & contrasting Counterfeit Love to Authentic Love. It was only after being exposed to Authentic Love was I then able to identify the Counterfeits in my life.
Where there is abuse there is no love.  Where there is love, there is no abuse.

Pattern Recognition, not only recognizing the patterns/MOs/red flags of the Ns/Counterfeits, but recognizing the patterns or paths that lead us to the N-trapment of Counterfeits. For me when I was dating the Counterfeit Prince he was just the understudy/stand-in/substitute for the Primary Counterfeits in my life, the Nparents. The Counterfeit Prince and I's relationship was about unfinished business from the past w/my Nparents. Not only do Ns enjoy the chase, but so do those who are N-chanted in the KON. This is something I did not want to admit to myself. My N-Chantments had to do w/chasing after Unrequited Love and trying to connivence my Self that the Counterfeit Love was the Genuine thing when it clearly was not.

Equality, Balance, Clarity are also essential for Authentic Love. I thought of another one when I was writing, but forgot it -- guess it is time for a Lunch Break!

[Flower]

All very good points here and very insightful posts!

I've been around the block a few times with various Ns and all I can say about the counterfeit love vs. authentic love is these Ns will suck up and flattery you big time to get what they want.
The old adage is true:  If a guy is too good to be true, he usually is counterfeit.  If you think you met a guy who has the "soul of a woman," he probably is gay.

Flower

[LettingGo]

Great point Flower! Ns hook you by becoming your Hero or making you theirs. They put you on such a high Pedestal, especially if you have a fear of heights   then get jealous & envious and have contempt for the position they put you in and chip away at the platform or knock you down all at once, only to come back later w/a new Pedestal to convince you to stand on just so that they can knock you down again. We must realize that we do not need a stinken Pedestal to be valued & cherished. We can be respected & treasured eye-to-eye on an equal level.

The Hook can only happen if there is a empty space that it can grab on to and illusively fill. We become Hooked when we look to someone else to fill the void inside our Self. When Self is healthy, strong & complete and fulfilled there is nothing for the Hook to grab on to and after a few failed attempts the N will move on to search for someone who s/he can Hook.

[SusyP14]

My experience now days is that it is easy to spot a narcissist and not because I am a narcissist on the level of unhealthy or malignant.

Narcissist appeal to needs. they do not deliver what is needed but they appeal to needs and to vulnerabilities. Knowing what that looks like, another persoN appealing to your needs and vulnerabilities is an important factor in  spotting a narcissist.

Here are some of the rules I go by.

I have to know my needs best and be able to provide for myself best.

I have to know my vulnerabilities and understand when some one is appealing to them. I have to be aware of when this is happening. I have to beable to discern the structure.

If I wake up feeling needy and go looking for some one to provide for me with  out an once of the ability to take care of a major portion of it myself then I would consider myself in trouble.

In other words I lack personal power to change my own mood or gift my own desire.

along comes a narcissist with the ability to give me what I need.

No one has every thing I need. 10 people can not take care of all my needs. I am my own primary care taker.

It is easy for me to spot a narcissist because the first thing they do is begin with in conversation addressing what they think I need. I need attention ... I need compliments to help me feel good about being me, feeling accepted.

We all need acceptance but how much have I accepted myself? If I have not done that then I will need something and some one outside of myself to fill the enormous gap.

Eyes, I think this has to be one of the most profound things that I have ever read.  Thank you.

[SusyP14]

So I have been back in forth in my head trying to add to this discussion in some sort of profound way, but instead I will do what I always do and quote from Sandra Brown:

HEALTHY LOVE WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THAT?

by Sandra L. Brown, M.A.

The opposite of healthy love is what we often call toxic love. Sometimes understanding what toxic looks like helps us to see what real love should look like too.

Here is a short list of the characteristics of Love vs. Toxic Love (compiled with the help of the work of Melody Beattie & Terence Gorski).

1. Love Development of self first priority. Toxic love Obsession with relationship.

2. Love Room to grow, expand; desire for other to grow. Toxic love Security, comfort in sameness; intensity of need seen as proof of love (may really be fear, insecurity, loneliness).

3. Love Separate interests; other friends; maintain other meaningful relationships. Toxic love Total involvement; limited social life; neglect old friends, interests.

4. Love Encouragement of each others expanding; secure in own worth. Toxic love Preoccupation with others behavior; fear of other changing.

5. Love Appropriate Trust (i.e. trusting partner to behave according to fundamental nature.) Toxic love Jealousy; possessiveness; fear of competition; protects "supply."

6. Love Compromise, negotiation or taking turns at leading. Problem solving together. Toxic love Power plays for control; blaming; passive or aggressive manipulation.

7. Love Embracing of each others individuality. Toxic love Trying to change other to own image.

8. Love Relationship deals with all aspects of reality. Toxic love Relationship is based on delusion and avoidance of the unpleasant.

9. Love Selfcare by both partners; emotional state not dependent on others mood. Toxic love Expectation that one partner will fix and rescue the other.

10. Love Loving detachment (healthy concern about partner, while letting go.) Toxic love Fusion (being obsessed with each others problems and feelings).

11. Love Sex is free choice growing out of caring & friendship. Toxic love Pressure around sex due to insecurity, fear & need for immediate gratification.

12. Love Ability to enjoy being alone. Toxic love Unable to endure separation; clinging.

13. Love Cycle of comfort and contentment. Toxic love Cycle of pain and despair.


Love is not supposed to be painful. There is pain involved in any relationship but if it is painful most of the time then you are probably in a Pathological Love Relationship because the end result of these relationships is Inevitable Harm.

[LettingGo]

Thanks Wonder Woman, this is great info from Sandra. It is like giving your relationship a Personality Test!

Love is not supposed to be painful. There is pain involved in any relationship but if it is painful most of the time then you are probably in a Pathological Love Relationship because the end result of these relationships is Inevitable Harm.~Sandra Brown

The key statement, is most of the time. The problem is when we are in the KoN the N-Fog is so thick, the Mirroring keeps us confused and disoriented and the Gaslighting keeps our minds spinning that we lose all sense of time. Journaling the Toxic/Counterfeit Love would bring perspective and clarity so that we can accurately track time. Then we must ask ourselves is it about the frequency of Toxic/Counterfeit Love or just the mere presence of it that destroys a relationship?

[LettingGo]

Sorry Free, I forgot to add your quotes to one of my above posts, because I was pressed for time.  
I want to mention them here because they are awesome & worth repeating!

The N is the opposite because they are masters are sniffing out their prey. They look to find all the qualities in someone they do not have in themselves- mainly, a huge heart that encompasses patience, understanding, and above all else (at first at least) the willingness to make excuses and see "the good" in them. We are fooled to believe that they in fact DO have the important qualities we look for and they do so by acting and mirroring us. ~SeturselfFree

This is a very important point to break the illusion of the Ns good or great traits -- they are Mirroring us! Yikes, kind of scary when you think about it. When we are attracted to the N, it is really an aspect of our Self we are attracted to. Even if the N "appears" confident and we feel we lack that quality, the Ns confidence is just a Counterfeit, because Authentic Confidence does not devalue others in order maintain or raise Self-Esteem.

Ever notice when a N fakes an emotion or characteristic they "over act". Like w/Confidence, Ns are out of balance because they lack a sense of true Self. Therefore when they Mirror a trait from us or someone else they over do it to an extreme and if you call them on something that challenges their sense of Confidence they project lack of Confidence on to you, because your normal Confidence in comparison to their Over-the-top exaggerated Confidence comes up short when in reality it is more normal and stronger then you are lead to believe by the Ns projected lies. When we are in the KoN our Confidence appears nonexistence because it is so stifled, hindered and covered up by the Ns Counterfeit Confidence. Our Authentic Confidence is denied self expression by the N, so we believe the lie that it does not exist. It is only until we take a shower in the Truth that we can wash off the filthy lies and discover the beautiful Authentic Confidence underneath. This Authentic Confidence grows even stronger when we leave the KoN because it is no longer held back by lies.

I would rather have an ounce of true Authentic Confidence in which I can nurture and grow, then to have a ton of Counterfeit Confidence that is utterly useless and creates nothing more than a hollow empty pathetic existence.

That is how the wool can be pulled over our eyes, they are that good. They have to be. That is how they exist in life, no more no less. They have spent their life manipulating, mirroring, lying, and being full of deceit. Just as we are full of love naturally, they are naturally empty.~SeturselfFree

In the KoN Co-Mirroring becomes Co-Dependence. This is why the N-relationship is one Grand Illusion. They Project what they lack and they Mirror what they wish they had. They are mirroring our qualities and emotions thus their good or desired traits are just Counterfeits;
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7141.0.html

That is why it is a "personality" disorder - it is permanent. It is just how they are. And I hate saying that. My profession is founded on the belief that people can change. I believe this belief is thrown out the window, as it should be, with N's. Same with sociopaths.~SeturselfFree

Totally agree w/you 100%, you are preaching to the choir girlfriend! Hopefully more and more people will catch on to this the more pathology is talked about and others come forward to share their stories in the KoN.

Cant teach an old dog new tricks, cant teach someone who cannot feel any emotion to suddenly "get it". It is an impossibility. It is a damn shame. ~SeturselfFree

The Helping Profession does not want to admit that there are just some people who can not be fixed or saved. Pathological Ns and Ps are not just old dogs trying to learn new tricks they are evil Rapid Dogs who are incapable of being good. Remember what they had to do with Old Yeller?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yeller

[LettingGo]

Here is a good thread that goes along w/this one,
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7047.0.html

[May]

"ns hook you by becoming your hero"     I believe that most of my friendships were like this. Their attitude was that they were better than me. They were "above" me. When I started to see what was going on, a lot of them would get ticked off because I wouldn`t "look up to them" the way they wanted me to or should I say, worship them they way they wanted to be worshipped.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hi Letting,

I'm seeing this thread for the first time, and haven't yet read others' replies.

Wanted to comment on the original message and focus on honor.  Yes, yes, yes.

During our separation, when XNH was his criminal worst, it hit me suddenly that I was in a good v. evil situation, and I thought about the Golden Rule #1 (and XNH's #2 version).  It got me to thinking about the years of our conversations and the words he'd used/not used.  Several months of local church attendance to get regrounded and see how stark the contrast was, just even in the homily messages, brought the point home to me.

I can not ever recall XNH using, with me, d or anyone, words like:  Honor, loyalty, commitment, courage, support, defend, encourage, manners, character, integrity, protection, value, admiration ... the list goes on and it's startlingly big.  These weren't/aren't in his lexicon.  For the longest time from the beginning of our R I thought it was because he was an engineer, a geeky guy, more of a science type, and a materialistic pseudo-hippy/intellectual.  But as he justified his negative/morally amorphous behaviors, I came to see that he simply didn't value these things at all as parts of his reputation or impact on others.

People with character don't necessarily have to describe it when they're busy living it.  But they do usually use these words at least to notice/applaud others' behaviors.  XNH didn't.  

This realization on my part was a huge eye-opener as it was a peek into the rest of his behaviors which, together, comprised the Nism Checklist.

In relationships with all people now, after spending several years cocooning and revisiting Me That Was in other geographies/cultures/societies, I've come full-circle back to recognizing the importance of choosing correctly according to the level of refinement/civility of the society in which I was raised.  

And Letting?  Part of the insidious emotional abuse/d&d I experienced from XNH's family were their put-downs of my "pearls and gloves" attitudes (moderated seeing me in the Santa Cruz mountains in shorts, T, fleece and boots but which got progressively worse as we moved farther East and our homes became bigger and our lifestyle wealthier/more elegant), me being "uptight" whenever I disagreed with them on ANY topic, me being "old school", "old-fashioned" or something (which I knew also was because I was 3 years older than XNH and six years older than XNSIL, so nothing to be done there).  What I see now is that it was my morality that threatened them, their beliefs, ways and family system.  It was the whole stratum of society I represented to them that was distasteful, stuck-up, Ivy League.  This from people with graduate degrees including a Harvard lawyer, folks who lived in very tony Marin County and who saved their $Ms as all that (still) matters.  It was an obscene double standard, based mostly on their lack of believing in the rule of law.

Honor matters.
Character matters.
Empathy matters.
Compassion matters.
Integrity matters.

Courage matters.

If these don't surface early in a relationship as naturally as a part of someone's skin or their breathing, they're not going to magically show up later -- and if they do, that's a clear red flag that they're an external mantle/cloak being put on for the occasion:  A new N target.  If these aren't discerned at the start, move on quickly.

My two cents.  (My clothing brand has also expanded to presenting these very aspects of character, and their online views are accelerating in growth, so you're speaking right to me on a variety of levels.)

NewWings4MeNow