Acceptance & Forgiveness . . . What does it mean?

[LettingGo]

Leggs brings up a great point about Acceptance & Forgiveness, which got me thinking,

Maybe we need to redefine what Acceptance & Forgiveness means to our Self rather than to let others define it for us and then get stuck w/not being able to fulfill the defined requirements.

What does Acceptance & Forgiveness mean to you?

How do you define them for your Self?

As children our families & society teach us their concepts & definitions of Acceptance & Forgiveness, as well as other important aspects of life and this has a tremendous impact on how one views Self in this world. Perhaps finding Self is about taking a critical look at how we define these aspects of life for Self.

The counselor yesterday said that depression is the final stage before acceptance, but I think acceptance and forgiveness are two places I will never get to.,...because I don't want to accept what happened and I know I can never forgive it.~Leggs

I totally understand not being able to move to acceptance and forgiveness the way some people define it. I think getting there is about redefining it for your Self. For me, acceptance & forgiveness does not mean Forgetting what was done or being some Super Saint w/a big red cape flapping in the wind and Pardoning the evil that was done to us. As long as Forgetting & Pardoning was part of Acceptance & Forgiveness I could never get to those stages either. For me Acceptance is about accepting What Is instead of an illusion of how I want things to be, or how I Want them to Be. Acceptance is about accepting a Reality and not a Fantasy. It is about Accepting this toxic relationship will remain toxic because Ns don't change. Acceptance means that I am healthy and normal to not want to settle for Toxic, Counterfeit Love and that I am not a self-centered N to reject Toxic, Counterfeit Love and look for Authentic Love. Acceptance means accepting that things must change, our relationship must end, so that N & I can stop making one another miserable. Acceptance means accepting that the N & I have two different paths to travel in this life and they are going in opposite directions and that is okay. Acceptance means accepting that some most people who come into our life are not designed to stay the remainder of our life -- even a Parent or a Sib. Acceptance is accepting that the Nparents, & Nsibs did not leave me, I found my Self and I left them. Acceptance is accepting that Biology does not mean Love and Bonding. Acceptance is accepting that an Authentic Family transcends the mere constraints of Biology. Acceptance is accepting that my core Self is constant regardless of my circumstances & relationships. Acceptance is accepting that the Ns behaviors are toxic & deadly to Self and that is not ok, but I will be ok. Acceptance is accepting that I did not spend not one minute more than I needed to in the KoN. Acceptance is accepting that I did my very best for those in the KoN and I can not do anymore. Acceptance is accepting that I am not their Savior, that is not my role nor is it in my job description. Acceptance is accepting that I am Letting Go and Letting God take care of the KoN and Heal me from the KoN. Acceptance is accepting that there is no more Unfinished Business left in the KoN--It is Finished. Acceptance is accepting that the past was a part of my life, but it does not define my life. Acceptance is accepting that my best years were NOT spent in the KoN and are beginning right now Free from the Kon. Acceptance is accepting that the Gift of Life is the Best Part, the Good, The Bad, The Ugly, and the Amazing. Sure I could have done w/out the Bad & Ugly parts, but Acceptance is accepting that it was a just part of my life and can no longer contaminate the Good & Amazing parts.

Forgiveness is not about Forgetting & Pardoning the evil that was done to me or even the evil person, but is about not being stuck in resentment & revenge and searching for retribution. Forgiveness is about releasing & relieving myself of the guilt that I spent too much time in the KoN. It is about moving on and focusing my love, energy, joy, and happiness else where. There are only so many hours in the day and I can not let the evil of the past contaminate the Joy of Today.

I don't believe that you can reach nor should you even try to reach Forgiveness when you still have contact w/the N, especially when your divorce is not final. This would be counterproductive to Self. Anger is a good stage to be in when you are battling the N in a divorce &/or custody case.

You must define the final stages of Acceptance & Forgiveness for your Self. Trust your Self that when you have defined these stages and ready to move to them, your Self will know. Part of Acceptance is accepting that your intuition is a gift to be utilize and to Forgive yourself for ignoring it and not using it correctly in the KoN.

Click on the link below for a fun mental exercise.
http://dealingwithtoxicpeople.blogspot.com/2010/04/your-new-gift.html

Leggs & Crystal, Anger is a great stage for you two to be in right now, because w/out it you will not be able to defend Self against all those N attacks you are & will be N-countering until things are finalized. Please know that my thoughts, love and prayers are w/you while you are battling out of the KoN. I pray for a wise and just Judge for the both of you, who will see the Ns for who they are and throw the entire weight of the book at them.

[Crystalstream]

Brilliant piece.

[Crystalstream]

Brilliant peace.

[LettingGo]

Thank you Crystal Your kind words touch my heart.

[CZBZ]

Thanks, LettingGo! It's so important to talk about 'forgiveness' because our society reprimands people who don't forgive. People just can't seem to forgive those unforgivers, ya know?

Respected psychologists are re-opening the topic of forgiveness, suggesting mentally healthy people are 'big-hearted forgivers'. Suggesting of course, that anyone who does not forgive is not psychologically healthy which is a also a valid point since narcissists are the most UNFORGIVING peanut-heads on the planet. If narcissists could forgive, they wouldn't be narcissists. I ponder that thought sometimes.

What is omitted from all these sentimental stories about Amish people's huge forgiveness and whoever else the media picks up on to keep our society stable (LOL), is that forgiveness is also a way to trap people in self-blame and deny their rightful and necessary ANGER.

The guideline i've used on WoN (and for myself) came from an outstanding book  titled, The Narcissistic Family:

"...forgiveness is not an essential part of this model...when confronted with the issue of forgiving the perpetrator(s), our belief is that the issue is more in the spiritual domain than in the psychological. Although the issue of forgiveness has been dealt with at length by Scott Peck, Bass and Davis, and others, we do not pursue it.

"In our experience, the self-imposed pressure to forgive the perpetrator often gets in the way of genuine recovery, as it can act to shut off the patient's necessary expression of anger and self-validation of feelings. When patients ask about the subject, we usually respond by telling them that in our experience, forgiveness is a feeling or condition of being more than an act. As such, it cannot be legislated or decided upon; if it happens, it happens on its own. Within this model, forgiveness is no more necessary than blame. The patient is asked for a reflection of reality, not a judgment call."(Pages 65-66, The Narcissistic Family by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman.)


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

When running a search on WoN, I found this post from 2005. You might appreciate reading my approach to 'forgiving a rat bazturd for being a rat bazturd." It has taken years.  

(excerpted from an archived thread)

POSTED BY CZBZ Sent: 8/27/2005 10:02 AM

When forgiveness is the higher principle in our hearts and minds, we will achieve it. In my experience, it might come as a surprise package arriving when we least expect it. Trying to Move To Forgiveness too soon, can end up defeating ourselves with frustration and self-blame. It can also short-cut the Expulsion Process as we hold the narcissist accountable for the wicked thing he did killing our love.
 
I stopped trying to 'consciously' forgive my X-husbaNd after reading numerous professional articles about the challenge it is to move a client through a process requiring anger, finger-pointing, externalizing, accepting all the nasty emotions people who intend to Forgive might feel guilty about reclaiming in themselves. Many of us have repressed a lot of those 'feelings' because we determined them to be wrong. One thing I had to unlearn was the stupid idea that 'if we think it, we are as guilty as doing it.' Well...if that's the truth then I am doomed to hell forever.
 
That's why this process of healing is so complicated and difficult to describe. We do everything we can to UNLOVE them and then, we do everything we can to LOVE them. But this time, there cannot be attachment or desire with our intentions to unconditionally love others. If there is, it is NOT unconditional love and we will hurt ourselves with unconscious condition to get something back for having loved them.
 

The prayer of my heart at night went like this:
"...please bless the N and his soulmate that they might find the same peace and forgiveness I ask for myself."

And then, I let it go. I did nothing consciously to bring it about. I blasted the X-N AND his N/S-oulmate all the way from California to the North Pole and back again. I expunged the essential anger and blame and guilt...and ONLY after two years of this excavation and exhausting chucking, was a new peace restored even slightly. This is why I perceive FORGIVENESS as a state of being and NOT a conscious thought.
 
Love and hugs,
CZBZ

[CZBZ]

Rereading my earnest and tender message from 2005, is rather poignant. Now I can see how hard I was trying to live up to such an enormous idea as 'unconditional love'. My religious upbringing made it very hard to be 'unforgiving' since 'forgiving' is one of my core values.

In this rather cryptic message from 2005, I think what I was telling myself is that it was okay to KILL love. It was okay to fall short of my standards. It was OKAY, if not essential, for me to "let everything unfold exactly as it should" after saying my little prayer each night for world order, truth, justice and galactic peace. hahaha!! I am a trusting person, even in the throes of despair and betrayal!

I see the core values  I WANTED to emulate; but I also see in this message, a very hurt woman whose heart was squashed like a little bug and still, I wanted to do the right thing. (right according to my values, that is!)

It was so hard for me to HATE the X and his girlfriend. I daresay that was a bigger struggle for me than 'forgiving' them for being narcissists.

My anger is my greatest prize from the recovery process.


Hugs,
CZ

P.S. this re-post also shows how valuable it can be to our healing process if we 'write' out our feelings. Even if those feelings and thoughts are incomplete, it's comforting and tender to see how hard we were trying!

[LettingGo]

I would love to hear that from Lucifer..that he knew he was wrong and was remorseful, but I am never going to get that and I know it now.

Still, it would be wonderful to get an acknowledgment and apology from him as false as it would be. Why do I even care? I don't and if he did call me, it would just be creepy and weird and I wouldn't believe a word of it.~Leggs

You just enlightened me on why I was having difficulty finding Closure w/the Momster and the NFOO. Between Susy's quote on Closure and NC and your statement above which sentiment I also shared it is all connecting.  

For me, Closure, the destination of going through all the Stages of the Recovery Process follows the last two Stages of Acceptance & Forgiveness and was contingent upon the Momster having Remorse which would give me Validation that what I experienced and endured, and survived was not normal, was abuse and was wrong. It is about calling/labeling/identifing a Wrong a Wrong. And I so despirately wanted the Momster to do that because she was the one who was doing all the wrong, abusive, hurtful, evil things. I was relying on the Momster to bring Closure, which was not going to happen, and would leave my Self feeling incomplete -- unless I redefined Closure for my Self, thanks to Susy's thread about NC being the Closure & the Validation to & for Self.
Can we make Susy's article on NC being the Closure a permanent thread? I can't find it   and would like to link it to this Tread, because Validation, Closure, Acceptance & Forgiveness are interactive.

My anger is my greatest prize from the recovery process.~CZ

Anger's purpose is to defend Self, w/out it Self is destroyed or at least critically injured if not comatose.

We must learn that we are one of the main characters in our own life and we can not let anyone else write our script. If we have been given a toxic script because we were born into the KoN, then we need to find Authentic Help from Wise Consultants to rewrite our own Script. We must objectively critique our scripts and delete things that are not true to our Character and are deadly to Self. If Religion plays a huge role in our Life Script, then we have to see how it is interacting w/Self. We can not rely on someone else's interpretation of this important Character in our Life, we need to carefully examine it for our Self. In The End the only one responsible for the way this all Played out is the Main Character, Self.

For example, my Religion, is based on the teachings from the Holy Handbook, it is what I base my Life Script on. Do I rely on someone else's (another human being's) interpretations & definitions to define my Life? And the Ultimate questions, Do I let others tell me who God is and what He says or do or do I seek a personal relationship w/Him myself? If you want to know what the Author of a book is saying, don't rely on other readers talk to the Author yourself. This way there is no more confusion. The way it looked in my life is that other people would tell me that I needed to Forgive & Forget Evil and Honor the evil person just because of the role that person had in my life. For those of us who are told to Forgive & Honor those who purposely hurt us and find pleasure in our pain, in other words Honor Evil is false and we instinctively know it because this statement makes us sick I believe it is God's way of protecting us against lies, no matter where the lies come from. When you can make that transition from Ns are humans that are acting evil, to Ns are evil acting human, it frees us from trying to honor or be good to a Person who is set out on destroying us.

How do you deal w/Evil w/out becoming Evil yourself? You must know the difference between Good and Evil. When you are a good person protecting one's Self against evil attacks, and Self preserving what is rightfully yours in a Divorce Battle, or any other Battle is a righteous thing compared to what the Ns do to destroy you to preserve their evil nature and get NS. Exposing the Ns wicked actions is a good thing, Ns doing the wicked things they do is a bad thing and there is no Honor in covering it up as they want you to do. Never consider your Self wrong for warning a N if s/he does not do right by you, then you will expose the truth which is always a good thing. Deceiving and telling a lie is bad, exposing the truth is never bad -- only bad for the N because it exposes his/her false Image.

[honeybearII]

We have had a number of posts on forgiveness over the past few years.  Many wounded, broken, angry people come here and pour their hearts out about someone telling them they have to forgive the perpetrator.  Many of these people are well-meaning, many of them are spiritual people who, like me, were indoctrinated from their earliest days to be forgiving, good girls, who never should get angry.

I like what CZ says - that one of the greatest resources she has from her experience is to claim her anger.  Like her, it took me a looong time to finally get angry - really angry - with my X.  I was so sure that my job in life was to protect the rat baztard and not cause him any embarrassment or public humiliation despite how he had treated me and how humiliating MY experience was.  Finally, in therapy, I learned how to get ANGRY.  I finally was able to claim my anger and realize that anger is a human emotion and can bring us many important lessons - like we have been mistreated, abused, emotionally sucked dry, lied to, manipulated, gaslighted - all those things can be acknowledged once we have acknowledged our anger.

As to forgiveness, I went back and read a lot of Scripture on this, and I have my own take on it.  Even the Scriptures say that to forgive one has to be ASKED TO BE FORGIVEN.  It is not a one-sided action.  In other words, I am not being true to myself or my experience if I suddenly get up one morning and say to myself, "Well, I just forgive him because he was deluded, sick, whatever".  When we do that we are offering the other party what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called Cheap Grace.  We are saying, "You treated me like shiite but all is forgiven".  That doesn't put the responsibility where it CLEARLY belongs - on them.  I went through my Time of Contrition.  I confessed to HIM that I was sorry for my part in the marriage issues.  I humbled myself and asked forgiveness.  Do you know what I got in return?  The Great Narcissistic Pat on the Head.  In other words, he forgave ME, but never, not ONCE, have I heard the words from his mouth, "I did a terrible thing to you and I am deeply and sincerely sorry for my actions and my actions toward you".

HE HAS NEVER ASKED MY FORGIVENESS.  Therefore, I am under no obligation to offer him something that he clearly doesn't want.  That does not mean I harbor vengeful feelings or great anger toward him.  While I have said many times on here, there is a part of me that would like to see HIM crash and burn the way I did, I can let it all go now and just look at him as if he is some small, insignificant creature that crossed my path at one time in my life and I happened to bless him with 32 years and 3 children.  When I look back on those years, from this side, it is as if it were some strange, crazy dream I was locked in.

We can drive ourselves crazy taking our Forgiveness Pulse to see if we have finally "forgiven him".  We can stay stuck in that rut for a lot of years, or we can accept that we have a RIGHT to feel deep anger and resentment and own our own devastation.  What we CAN learn to do is accept that we feel that way, offer OURSELVES the tenderness and caring that they so cruelly threw back in our faces, and love ourselves as they never did.  The only thing we really have to do is learn to LET GO of the whole sorry mess, turn our faces to the Sun/Son and walk into a new and freer existence than we EVER had with them.  It is our gift to ourselves.  Our forgiveness should not be wasted on an N who truly doesn't care one whit whether we offer them that precious gift.

Honey

[CZBZ]

Is this the one you are looking for, LettingGo?

Is the Silent Treatment part of the Game?

[LettingGo]

  Yes that's it! Thanks CZ. Personally I believe that this quote deserves its own Thread, that NC is Closure.

The following is from Susy, aka WoNder/ful Woman
That is all part of the devastating discard.  The message is:  you are not worth giving closure to.  As far as I know, no one gets closure from a N relationship.  Closure is for 'normal' relationships when both parties have hearts and empathy.

I love this quote:

"We want closure which is never going to come in a way that we want but we can find closure by No Contact. We want to be heard, want them to know the pain they've caused but they are never going to listen and if they do, they don't hear the words. What we often miss is the beauty of "No Contact." You are finally saying No More. It is your voice without the words but they hear it loud and clear as if you screamed from the top of your lungs - "Go to the Devil." No Contact is your pure and sweet rejection. It is empowering. It is your last word. It is your closure. It is one of the most hurtful narcissistic injuries you could inflict. They have finally come to understand you know just who and what they are. They know the tricks do not work anymore. They know you are no longer prey or a pawn in their game. It is your last word."

"No contact is so essential. Your pride and dignity are riding on it."


From this article:

http://www.thenarcissistandpsychopath.yolasite.com/no-contact.php

The constant theme to all of this is that we can not rely or depend on others to define our perceptions or definitions.

Religion rather than a personal relationship w/God is such a huge character is our Life Script. People talk about Unconditional Love and Unconditional Forgiveness like they are some kind of Super Saint and we are so Less Than if we have conditions/boundaries. However, when I research Scripture I find many Conditions/Boundaries. Like Honey said, Forgiveness, according to Scripture, is based on offenders ability to have remorse, change (repent) and ask. And does any body know of a N who has done all (3) Conditions? Arguably the Greatest Condition of all is about Salvation, John 3:16, I view God as the Perfect Loving Parent and He (not a gender) loves all His children AND there are Conditions to living in His Home. If my child was a deceptive, wicked N who hurts his/her Sibs and myself I would not allow my child to live in my Home either.

[Proud2B]

Honey,

Your post is so eloquent, and I wholeheartedly agree on all points. 

My exN has never asked for forgiveness either, and in his mind, feels perfectly justified in everything he's done.     

What I struggle with is, at what point does that wholesome, righteous, well-deserved anger turn to bitterness?  My fear is that I will turn into a bitter old worman, or that others will think of me like that.

It's difficult to refrain from making snarky comments at work every once in while when I hear about some of the exN's shenanigans.  There are plenty of sympathetic souls here, and bless me, but sometimes I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. 

Generally I don't feel bitter, but every so often, I do.  And sometimes it comes out in my words or attitude. 

Proud2B

[Jacintae]

"But after a while, something amazing will happen... you'll wake up one day with a renewed sense of clarity, parts of yourself that you've long ago buried will begin to emerge and you'll begin to feel strong again. If you continue to maintain NC, your energy will shift, your thoughts will support you instead of harm you and you'll feel a sense of liberation, the likes of which you haven't felt in years, if at all. NC is the key to our freedom."


Thanks for this article. I need to engrave this bit on my heart.

Love

Jac xx

[LettingGo]

At what point does that wholesome, righteous, well-deserved anger turn to bitterness?~Proud2B

Great question. I guess when wholesome, righteous, well-deserved anger turns to bitterness is when it becomes an addiction. When the anger becomes out of balance, obsessive, counterproductive & destructive.

The term addiction is also sometimes applied to compulsions that are not substance-related,. . . the term addiction is used to describe a recurring compulsion by an individual to engage in some specific activity, despite harmful consequences, as deemed by the user himself to his individual health, mental state, or social life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction

[honeybearII]

When does anger become bitterness?? I think that happens when we refuse to let go of the emotion and nurture it instead.  I have said several times on WoN that emotions are messengers.  They come to tell us something and then WE HAVE THE CHOICE of listening and letting them move on, or letting them settle down in our hearts and take root.  That goes for both negative and positive emotions, doesn't it? 

Bitterness is the harboring, the nurturing of a healthy emotion - anger.  We NEED anger.  It is motivating and it tells us that something is not right.  But when we give anger a room in our hearts and in our minds, when we feed it daily and invite it to stay and keep giving us a message over and over, then it turns to bitterness.  I told myself early in the process and once I had decided I needed to divorce my H, that I would NOT allow myself to become one of those withered, bitter, divorcees of a certain age who just have to hash and rehash the whole sorry mess over and over and who feed their own bitterness by recounting in great detail the many sins of the husband and her own feelings of mistreatment.  Those things exist, but we don't have to dwell on them and feed on them.  At some point in this process we have to let the anger leave our inner home, and then we can fill up Anger's Room with other things like peace, contentment, joy, happiness.  As long as Anger has come to stay and brings its friend Bitterness, then we have a whole room in our hearts that is already filled with negativity and the positive things o live cannot take up residence there.

One of the things that really helped me was finally seeing the HUMOR of the whole situation.  I didn't get there easily, but one day I was telling an old friend about the day I came home and found my H with his woman.  It was one of the mose horrible experiences of my life but suddenly I saw the whole thing as if I were a bug on the wall and I realized while it was humiliating and horrible it was also FUNNY!!!  Some day I will recount the whole thing because I can truly see the humor in it now.  I knew at that moment that I had passed the deep anger stage and was reclaiming my life because that incident had no more power to hurt me as HE had no more power to hurt me.  Instead, it has become one of the truly funny things in my past.  That was a JOYOUS moment for me.

I still can make a snarky remark about my ex if he comes up in conversation, but I don't think that indicates any lasting bitterness.  I think it is a human reaction when the name of some you heartily dislike comes up in conversation. 

Honey

[Jacintae]

I agree with that Wiki piece on addiction. To me, addiction is doing something, anything - that I do not want to be doing and which causes me concern. It is usually a 'short term fix' with a self destructive outcome in the long run. Like getting in contact with the N or drinking too much wine or moping about feeling sorry for myself.

For me, there are times when 'revenge' is pretty high on my agenda. I sometimes sit and plot all the the things I would like to do to 'out' that guy to the many 'fans' he still has. Well, there is a strong possibility that no one would believe me and think I am just a spurned lover. So what is the point? He is much more manipulative than me and I bet he would come out of any revenge plot I could hatch smelling of roses and I would just shoot myself in the foot. And just feel even less powerless than I do now.

Plus for today, I realise that any time, even one minute thinking of that guy in any capacity is detrimental to me getting back on an even keel with my own life. At the moment I don't really read all that much about Nism - I just can't spend any more time right now trying to figure out that guy. I am so grateful for all I have learned here because if I had not really understood Nism I think I would still be living in hope. My 'hope' for any further dealings with that man is dead. I don't even feel angry, I just feel worn out with that man and all his concerns, all the energy I have left is towards sticking onto this site to gain strength from the hope I find here that one day I will be over it completely and indifferent to that guy.

Some time soon in the future, I may have the energy to get angry - but for now I am just happy to try and forget about the whole thing. Maybe the anger/forgiveness position is something I have yet got to face. I am grateful for this thread and will remember it for future reference.

Love
Jac xx

[Crystalstream]

I was involved with a man who sexually molested my daughter from the time she was 2 until she was 4 1/2.  He spent 7 of the 10 years he was sentenced in prison.  I spent every day of my life until 5 years ago planning his death.  I came up with some pretty exotic forms of murder.  I would have dreams of how I would find his house, he would open the door, I would kill him, and he would die.  When I woke up I didnt feel any better.  Nothing was gained from it.  I knew that if I ever did manage to let my rage overide my recovery I would still be in the same place, regardless if I took him out or not.
I went to treatment for that one in 2005.  I was sent to a facility in Arizona that specializes in sex addiction.  I did not understand why I had to go to a place like that, since that was not one of my issues. (accepting unacceptable behavior from the men in my life, and believing that I deserved it was.) 
What happened there was miraculous for me, not the perpetrator.  I was placed in a room each morning with 14 sex offenders of various deviant behaviors in a group setting.
I had to sit there for an hour each day with them.  I was the only woman some days.  I learned that addiction comes in many forms.  The catalyst for my healing came from a guy who I connected with, with the same name as my daughters perpetrator.  I got to know him.  I am not going to say that i understood him, because I didnt.  I can just say that something changed for me during that period of therapy.  I know that it isnt my job to forgive the man who did that to my daughter.  It is Gods job.  It is my job to forgive ME, with Gods help.  I work on that daily.
Now you know why I chose to take an apartment 800 miles away from my cb to live near my daughter.  I think I could live in another city someday, but not today.
Another emotionally charged piece of the beach trip was the fact that we were within 10 miles of my daughters perpetrator.  I have always been afraid to travel to Virginia beach for fear of what I would do if I had the proximity and the chance.  I didnt do anything.  I was on edge at times, but I did not act out irrationally.  I cant tell you how many fantasies I have had around that activity! I keep tabs on him every three months, and have done so for the last 20 years.  He failed to register once.  Once.

[eyes_up]

"He is much more manipulative than me and I bet he would come out of any revenge plot I could hatch smelling of roses and I would just shoot myself in the foot. And just feel even less powerless than I do now. " ~ Jacintea


PERSONAL POWER:


The expression of powerlessness with in Jacinteas words  is key point in terms struggling with forgiveness and acceptance. Powerlessness and personal power is the culprit.

In all exterior doings and experiences each person has only so much power . ON the other hand personal power is a kind of power despite all odds , I believe can not be thwarted, stolen nor used to create power for others.

The relationship with a narcissist wreaks of the lack of personal power .That is how I interpret my experience of dancing with a narcissist. There is no winning when  I do not make use of all of my energies and I do not grow when I am not including all of myself in the process.


From my personal experience of myself it seems to me that I was looking to fore fill something through a romantic/intimate relationship that I needed to establish on my own first . This is hind sight of course and I wasn't altogether aware of it at the time.

The relationship with a narcissist at first meant powerlessness which then pointed at developing personal power.

My dreams and fantasies of getting back at the narcissist, revenge and so fourth,  was the start towards personal power . It was  a childs first attempt at self assertion and for that I felt it very important to allow myself those fantasies.

The adult aspect would not allow the child to do what she wanted to do for several good reasons. First reason is because the adult knew it wouldn't cultivate awareness for myself or for other person. It would only cause me more trouble.

So just how do I work with my feelings of power?

There is a huge struggle here in terms of external power, the power to do ... but the power to BE (exist) comes first and that is personal power.  

The narcissist represented to me a personal aspect of my own psyche. It was the part of me that felt no power and then the original lack of power manifested externally with in a 3-D partner. The narcissist rage is 3-D and external and my anger is not accessed - unconscious and is self destructive

I talk about it like this because , well, this is how it worked for me. I didn't see the narcissist as anything other then an energy that exampled something hidden with in myself that needed attention. The narcissist represented a lot of what I wanted ... didn't think I had and bowed down to.


•••

All of the revenge thoughts were great. I really liked them. Might have even acted on them if I could have gotten away with them in hopes they would actually work.

So the revenge phase I consider part of the process. It is natural to want to retort and defend.

Interrupting this angry phase with the belief and pressure that I must forgive and accept would not have been a wise move. It would have detoured a very important phase of recognizing , experiencing and integrating with my personal and individual power which in fact was not comfortable and initially not acceptable. Of course the narc represents a distortion of power.

  I needed to be angry and dream and scheme. I needed to touch that energy to rediscover it and then develop it past the initial reaction of revenge.

What seems to happen when people hit the revenge anger phase is they do not allow themselves to experience this energy in fear that it will happen. Then it is quickly replaced with the demand to forgive. There is also the extreme discomfort that "I" could think this terrible stuff up. Can I live with myself and these violent ideas? It must mean that I am a baaaaaaaaaaaaad person.  

This repression or condemnation of vital energies that essentially need attention and integration and instead of, one is attempting the so called superior move of forgiveness.

It was very important that I feel those feelings of revenge because they were a vein into my personal power.

The end result of working with my own intense and previously disowned and culturally unacceptable energies  was self acceptance out side of cultures ideals.

Experiencing angry & vengeful feelings is different then acting on those feelings.

I think it is key to learn how to accept and experience unwanted  feelings so that those feelings do not manifest in a behavior. The behavior might very well manifest in a self destructive manner rather than the actual destruction of another person.

What is happening here is that I am accepting my feelings and in that I have felt nothing wrong there fore I need not forgive myself for my feelings. They are ok and they are being processed in a constructive manner.

This comes before any ideal of external forgiveness. The out come is the development personal power and connection . I found with connecting with personal power to be the answer. there was no need to forgive myself or another person when I could finally accept my feelings and myself ... connect with unwanted aspects of myself and see that they had something positive to offer.

When personal power is active the answer arrives for it was the lack of personal power that allowed the narc relationship to manifest in the first place. Opinion

Personal power is not the power to affect others. Personal power is the internal power of self existence, self connection which need not rely on others actions nor behaviors to prove my existence nor my connection to self. I claim my birth rights here and self develop through reclamation. I own all of me. I can still remember moving through this process. It was a fantastic experience but NOT fantastic like OH I FEEL GREAT, I am on top of the world.

So, I met up with a narcissist and it was not a relationship that was conducive  to growth with in or with out. It retarded my growth. Interestingly enough it was so extremely retarded that it fired up every cell in my body and every hair line of my psyche and burst. There was a lot of catching up to do. The alarm clock was ringing.

•••

Every time I answer to a forgiveness thread I come up with the same answer. My answer is there has been no forgiveness and that it was not necessary. The root of forgiveness is acceptance. Acceptance is where the answer lies. Forgiveness is just a watered down version of the huge process of acceptance.

My anger is my greatest prize from the recovery process.~CZ

CZ's words above say a lot about the process of acceptance.

It is ok that feeling exist through such horrible looking thoughts. It is the feelings that need to be discovered instead of getting hung up on the thoughts that create unacceptable pictures... those that threaten ones image of a perfect , acceptable and desirable self. It was not me that originally decided on what was desirable but I was taught from an early age what was desirable and what was acceptable. Important to get past this to do the work of self development.

Dreams are telling not in what imagery is used but in the message/emotions the imagery is conveying. I had dreams that if I were put to trial for my dreams I would be in jail for life today. But, My dreams do not lie about my feelings and those feelings need to be felt, embraced, accepted, claimed and then they can grow up, expand and become.

So, again , forgiveness is a topical word that points at the process of self acceptance which then becomes human acceptance and so on.With acceptance things can grow and mature.

When I deny the intense feelings and criticize (judge) myself for them I am not with the understanding of the importance of the energy that lies with in my very being. My psyche insists (just like my digestive process, non negotiable) that I grow ~ understand, learn accept, work  and make use of all energies ... GROW and connect rather than repress, deny, shame, condemn and so forth.

Anger is not destructive/negative but what we do with anger can be destructive. Anger is a message and my job is to figure out, learn what works and is fruitful.

I prescribe the best-est most disgusting revenge fantasy where every thing comes out in your own favor. That would be something to work on and see into   (of course not act on). This is in terms of developing personal power.

eyes

[Jacintae]

When personal power is active the answer arrives for it was the lack of personal power that allowed the narc relationship to manifest in the first place. That would be my personal opinion/experience.

Personal power is not the power to affect others. Personal power is the internal power of self existence which need not rely on others actions nor behaviors to prove my existence nor my connection to self. I claim my birth rights here and self develop along the way.

So, I met up with a narcissist and it was not a relationship that waas conducive  to growth with in or with out. It retarded my growth. Interestingly enough it was so retarded that it fired up every cell in my body to bust out. There was a lot of catching up to do. from Eyes.

Eyes, I so agree with this. Thank you for such a detailed, thoughtful post - you so eloquently said what I am trying to find words to put to the slow realisations that I am coming to recently.

I suppose, for me, I am realising that I want to 'live well' more than I want to 'even out' score with the N. He took enough of my time and energy - now it's time for me to turn my attention to myself. The real need I have is to examine my 'retarded growth' which I accept that I have. I think I always kind of knew it was a weak spot with me but I used 'ego driven motivation' to get me through. And mostly it did serve me well. But a run in with an N is such a devastating event that I cannot ignore the situation any longer. I too want to claim my birth rights - to heck with the N, he's yesterday's news now - and I just can't be bothered to even think about him much more. I want to move on and up out of all of it - but keep hold of the valuable lesson I've learned.

Thanks so much Eyes, that was a great post for me. And thanks to everyone - this is a great thread for me. There is magic in this site, it has become my touchstone right now and every single post is so very helpful to my faltering progress at the moment.

Love

Jac xx

[SusyP14]

energy - now it's time for me to turn my attention to myself. The real need I have is to examine my 'retarded - this is a great thread for me. There is magic in this site, it has become my touchstone right now and every single post is so very helpful to my faltering progress at the moment.

This is a great informative post.

Jac, why don't you come visit it here in America?  I will take you right over to Sandra Browns 5 day retreat and hold your hand while you are there!!!

If you were not planning on traveling, I will still hold your hand from here.

[Jacintae]

Dear Suzy - what a lovely, kind generous girl you are - your posts have helped me so much from the very beginning on this site.

My story is similar to yours, Suzy. I never married the N, never raised his children, never put up with years of cheating, never had to face the trauma of divorce and all that suffering that others went through. My situation was more short lived in that I was just in a loose five year relationship with an N but it came close to driving me insane. I know it is possibly easier for me to just dump him out of my life altogether because when I really think about it, I did really not have such investment in him as many have had. I can see the difference and fully understand that in many ways I got off lightly with the N.

One of this things this site has taught me is that the N, was an N was an N. His behaviour was NOT my fault. Nor do I blame myself for it. But, on the other hand, it is I who must be responsible for me.

In 12 Step programs, Step 4 is a dreaded step where 'we make a fearless and searching moral inventory of ourselves'. I translated this to make myself try and become honest with with myself and look back at my past patterns. This was my first ever run in with an N so that was not a problematic pattern. What was though, was the fact that I had spent my life trying to prove myself in my career, on and on and on and on. It is/was my addiction -trying to be perfect at work that has really been an issue with me. I was in a career that I never really found much fulfillment in and if I am bone honest, it was a job that I really had no great natural pull to - I found most days just hard graft but I kept going because I never knew how to be any other way.

I was not really all that 'street wise' with men although I am middle aged now. I found Sandra Brown's site some time ago. I got her book and I got all the available lectures she has made available on Nism. It was really her site that brought me to WoN. Yes, I did know a lot about Nism - in theory, but I did not want to accept that that guy was an N. I kept trying harder and harder to make things work, convinced that my N was different. But of course he was not.

Again I will say that I fully understand that I am not responsible for the behavior of the N. But my lifestyle had put me in a position where I was vunerable to the N. I guess he could see that I was 'easy pickings' - you know, a bit empty on the inside. I did not know that at the time, that's what I am learning on here - that yes, I did give him my power but now I am starting to take it back.

So I am making a start. I am taking a career break. I am going back to University to start a Master's Degree which will eventually lead to a Phd in the writings and theories of Carl Jung. He has always interested me but I thought it a bit of a cop-out to spend time doing things that I LIKE. I always thought my happiness was dependant on other people, but this site had shown me that happiness is an 'inside job'. I am making other smaller but positive changes - I don't get so involved now with the ups and downs in my FOO. It has been such a relief. And I now go swimming three times a week and have made time to eat better - not on the hoof like I always did but to try and sit down to at least two meals a day. You know - the nuts and bolts of life. Things I never had time for - I am making time for them now.

Compared to where I was two months ago - things are so much better for me now. I really am feeling much more like a human again. I don't dread the days so much, my nerves are not so shattered as they were. I have a calmness at times that I never, ever knew before and I can appreciate life again.

And I have this site to come into whe things get rough. I feel I have more caring friends here than I think I have ever had in my life. It is such a good feeling - so thanks again.

Love

Jac xx

[Legs]

Oh, my goodness! What a great thread and so powerful and again, just at the perfect time for me to hear it. The post I read yesterday about acceptance,forgiveness and pardon was something that can work for me....I don't have to have forgiveness for anyone but me or acceptance of anything but what I have done. And pardon for Lucifer. Never.

But I can maybe someday boot that last bit of bitterness out of my heart and give it all back to him because that's where it all started and I can see that now. He is a bitter, sad, lonely, frightened man and he saw me and thought I could save him but then he destroyed me because he was envious of me and had realized that I could not give him my soul though I had given him everything else. And that's what he wanted....he wanted my soul because he hasn't got one and if he does, it is a shriveled up dead thing. He wants me to be that same now because I saw him for what he is and when I did, I wanted to be away from it forever.

I think my greatest wish was for others to see him as I saw him, but to do that they would have to live with him and love him and then experience the huge betrayal that he is capable of, and I can that time is over now for him.

He will never again be able to attract anyone to him because his inside nastiness has finally come out and covered him physically. He is repulsive. He is withered up. He is like a empty husk. The only thing that is probably keeping him alive is his hatred of me. I can see now that I don't have to even do revenge to him (I still want to expose his married w***e for some reason and I don't even know her, but maybe that just feminine nastiness..I know if it wasn't her, it would have been another one..what I really hate is that after she knew her presence was causing problems in our marriage, she still perused him, but I know now that for her it was about the money...so she was willing to destroy a marriage for money! That is so ...well. so whorish! That's I want people to know about her..she would destroy others for money. To me, if you did it for "love" that would be one thing, but just for cash???)

But a least he knows that I know that he had to pay her for whatever he got from her, and he knows that I know that he is just a sad, foolish old man. I don't know if he will ever realize that I actually did love him (as much as I knew about him) and he will never have that again. I don't know if he even cares or can recognize it, but what I do know is that whatever had to happen happened, and now it is up to me to use what I discovered about myself to put myself on the path.


I know I sound jumbled and barely coherent, but I am just now recognizing so many things with the power of the words I read from you women. You have been down the road and I feel like you are walking beside me whispering entire paragraphs of wisdom and experience, and I feel so fortunate to be able to hear you.

When I first came here, I was in the catbird seat, or I thought I was. I thought I had figured it all out and intellectually, I think I get it. Now I have to do the same thing I said to other people..let my heart catch up with my head. I think I thought I OWED it to myself to be angry and revengeful. If I didn't make him pay, then there was something bad wrong with me.

But now I think it would just drag me down further into his nastiness and I really need to get the H*ll away from all of it as fast as I can. I'll leave him to play in his own pile of poo because he must really like the way it smells. After all, that's all he knows. At least I didn't stay there in it for the rest of my life.

I know this divorce thing is gonna suck and it already does....my attorney is just a little too bossy right now and I can see we're going to have to have a Come to Jesus meeting, but I am starting to enjoy those more and more. If nothing else, this experience has taught me to trust my gut again and not be afraid of confrontation. I have to pick my battles and realize that I can't win every time, but unless I play the game, I will never win.

I have learned that fighting is done two ways...if they care about me, I can use my feeling to perhaps win and if they don't, then I have to use actions. I never knew any other way than to use my feelings, and that just didn't work about 90% of the time.

I am so glad my friend told me that I can always DO revenge, but once it's done, I can never take it back. I have really enjoyed my revenge fantasies but they are becoming less and less elaborate. I am still angry, but I am not going to let my anger overtake my thinking.  I still think in some way, this is going to be a good thing when I am done with this divorce. I was sad for a long time because I knew I would never be the person I was, but now I see that the person I was was frighted and less that I am. She had a dog and pony show that was amusing, but underneath all that, was a just an unsure, hesitant child. I am still unsure, hesitant and frightened but I think now that it's good that at least I know it.


Ok, so thank you again chix for the remarkable amount of USEFUL information here and letting me see straight into your hearts. I am learning to open mine, and it's scary, but turnabout is fair play. Thanks for taking me in and putting up with my endless nattering and going back and forth and in and out....It's exhausting, but I don't know any other way to do it right now.

xoxo, Legs

[eyes_up]

"I am going back to University to start a Master's Degree which will eventually lead to a Phd in the writings and theories of Carl Jung. He has always interested me" ~ Jacintea

Jacintea, I am a huge Jung reader and might add participant. What I write above is reference to CJ but it is not just a reading reference... it is a three-D living announcement of the theories. Not all Jung but the core of it is.

A lot of enjoyment and effort put into working with shadow theories as well as active imagination.

I wish I could tell you some really good books to read on his theories but never got around to making a list.

How wonderful that you are planning on study his work.

eyes

[Legs]

Jung...was he the collective unconscious and archetype guy??? And maybe a lot more that I don't remember??

Legs, who could google but I think instead I'll finish PanDEMONium (best book I read since Edgar Sawtelle) by Daryl Gregory. It's all about archetypes in the forms of demons that are almost comic book characters..very brilliant and funny but one of those novels that makes you think as you read along.

[Jacintae]

I am a huge Jung reader and might add participant. What I write above is reference to CJ but it is not just a reading reference... it is a three-D living announcement of the theories. Not all Jung but the core of it is.
 
eyes

Dearest Eyes - yes, I did have a glimmer of recognition of  this in your previous post. I think that is why your post was so very valuable to me. You said the things I was thinking in a way that clarified things for me. In ways, your post yesterday was a huge affirmation to me that I am on the right track with the changes I am making in my life.

I am making this change and it is not an easy one. I have been driven by a need for external success all my life. My own measure of myself was always wholly based on my annual salary and bonus. I needed to gather and acquire. And I did. And I could never spend it. And I realise that I never will. I cannot - because my security was/is wholly dependant on the amount I 'have put away'.

I hope I get forgiveness for my meanderings here. Take me 2 years ago. I would start work at about 7am and work without break until about 10pm in the evening. I needed to work like that to get keep my 'edge'. My office was beautiful - I had fresh orchids daily put in a vase on my desk by 'persons unknown' to me. 'Business lunches' and evening soirees with people I had absolutely nothing in common with. I remember one evening taking visiting bods to a restaurant of 'their' choice which happened to be a high class hotel that ended with beautiful belly dancers acting inappropriately for money with the men at my table. But I HAD to make them fell welcome and smile cheerfully through it all. (I got lovely flowers from those guys when they left London to say thanks for my wonderful hospitality). Sometime after really busy, stressed days I used to buy a bottle of gin on the way home and open it on the train just to face the long journey home and the emptiness in my life.

And the thing was - I thought that was all OK. Along came the N and 'seemed' to give me some attention just for myself. I was flattered and could not believe that the N just liked me for myself. You know - I now know that I formed that 'survival bond' with him. I kept living like a 'money making machine' and giving it all over to him.

And then my life fell apart when he started to gaslight me. And the rest is history.

Carl Jung makes good sense to me. It has often crossed my mind lately that he might have had some N tendancies himself. I think his wife was very long suffering and I think she had a very hard life with him. On the other hand I think he was aware of this. I think he knew of his own weaknesses and tried very hard to sort it all out. In doing so he left a great legacy for others to study. And mostly he did manage to implement change in 'himself' at midlife.

Sorry for rambling along. When I read back on the way that I lived it seems so pathetic and sad. And a lot of my friends envied the 'career success' that I had. Well, it does have it's upside - now I can afford to go back to study, there IS something to be said for money, but it is far from being everything.

Yes, I am really beginning to see that for me getting so involved with an N was just a symptom of the life I had, through ignorance, chosen. It has been tough, hard and it has completely broken me down. But 'in the heart of crisis lies opportunity'. If I had never met an N, I would never had found this site and I would never had seen such honesty about life reflected back to me. I now have the occasional thought that meeting an N was not all bad for me. I got so broken that I am having to start from scratch to rebuild myself and it really is a wonderful thing to have a second chance to make something better of life than I did.

Love to all
A very grateful Jac xxx