Acceptance & Forgiveness . . . What does it mean?

[Jacintae]

I have learned that fighting is done two ways...if they care about me, I can use my feeling to perhaps win and if they don't, then I have to use actions. I never knew any other way than to use my feelings, and that just didn't work about 90% of the time.
from Legs.

Legs - you think you might sound incoherent. That is the furthest thought from my mind when reading your post. I think your post was just so profoundly honest and when I finished reading it - I just wished it had gone on longer. That sentence above is just about one of the most relevant sentences applying to me that I ever read. When I read the posts that are in this thread, somehow it helps me progress a few more yards out of the deep mess I was in.

Me too with the 'feelings' thing. In a very simple way, Carl Jung suggests that we have four different ways of being ( forgive me Eyes for being so basic about this. but it's the way I relate it to myself). We can be thinkers ( ie driven by the logic of any situation), feelers, ( driven by emotion), intuitives ( driven by 'just knowing') or sensates ( where we are good at seeing the detail of things).

I know now that I am a 'feeler'. All of these 'ways of being' are excellent in their own right but it's if we rely too much on one to the detriment of the other that we may get into a mess. Being a 'feeler' is not a bad thing - even though I work in finance it has often come to my aid, I can often tell when people are tired at meetings or when I am fighting a losing battle with the IRS or something like that and it often saves me a lot of time and energy. But I do rely too much on that. For example I used to 'feel' so distraught and lost when the N was 'out of contact' with me and this 'feeling' drove me to try even harder to please. If I was able to use my 'thinking' function more efficiently, I might have been able to balance out that 'feeling' with a logical thought such as 'OK, if he's out of contact with me, what does that say about him?' or something like 'to hell with that guy, I am always available for him - it this relationship not a bit out of kilter in that he comes and goes as he pleases' or 'how come he always disappears when I have just given him some financial help for his work? ' You know 'logical thinking' ( while it was OK at work) was never my strong point in relationships. On the basis of my feelings alone - I lived in denial with the N. My 'feelings overrode any logical thoughts that I had'. Similarly if I had been more intuitive about the situation, even on the basis of his past history, some wisdom within me should have let me see the 'red flags'. And they were there - without a doubt.

When I read Carl Jung's theory of these things - it does make sense to me. And I think from that sentence above you may be finding the same thing. 'Feelings' are a great guide and good but there comes a point when feelings alone will not save us. We have to be able to use other ways of making sense of things - as you say, if we are flogging a dead horse, then no matter how much we care about it - logic will have to direct us to the fact that we are wasting out time.

Carl Jung believed in syncronicity. When I read this thread I can believe it too. 

Love

Jac xx

[Jacintae]

On the subject of Jung and Nism, I liked this link;

http://www.jungny.com/

Love 

Jac xxx

[eyes_up]

Jacintea... That is what C.Jung says... how could I critique you. He talks a lot about balance in the same way that Buddiist psychology does. His theories are derivative of learning that. So... balance and using all perceptions.

There was a time like Leggs when I was heavy on the feeling side and my intuitive side was being ignored. Got to say though it not that every aspect , feeling, intuition, instinct/felt sense and rational do not work it is which ones a person listens to... well, that is the way it is for me.

I tend to think that all senses are operating but which ones do we actually respond to. That is how it has been for me. Logic generally helps to file everything... so taking logic to all the emotions and all the intuitions and all of the felt experiences, the information that doesn't come with words.

If I had considered all of my sensory experience in terms of the narcissist I would have come up with the best conclusion a whole lot sooner. But I allowed the other person to tell me what I should be experiencing and that what I was experiencing was crazy or incorrect.

CZ makes a really good point when she says...

"You can be honest with your higher power and with yourself. Just remember: your husband is not your higher power. Even if he acts as if he is."

When I am operating and responding on the emotional realm 100% then it is time to take some time and figure things out before I take action. Emotional experiences are just part of the whole experience and only one level of the experience.

Emotions are interesting in that they can influence the wrong decision as well as the right decision. So while emotions can influence they do not have to take over.

There has to be a lot of emotional intelligence, understanding ones emotions and the ability to not act on emotions but rather a combination of senses.

It seems to me that when inside of narc world my emotions did not serve me. It was my logic that served me most. When things didn't logically match up. The fact that I was so emotion saturated that the (backwards) logic of the narc became a solid rock. Well, Ya know where that is going or rather where it went.

Getting back into my own skin and reconnecting  with  all senses is the answer of course. Emotional saturation happened when all of the mean stuff addressed the wounded - abandoned child with in (yet another psychology) and that is who was responding or rather reacting on the behalf of self.

Rational can help understand the wounded child with in. That is what is targeted by a narcissist. We all have a wounded child no matter how great our parents were. We were children and our emotional intellect was merely at the beginnings of forming. Back when all we could do is cry when we needed to be fed and couldn't yet understand that mommy and daddy were helping fix big brothers skinned knee.

When I know my own wounded child and her feelings ... I become her parent and do not look for a big strong narcissist who makes promises.

This leads to another idea that when we make our romantic relationship through the need/desire for a symbiotic relationship that we are not operating with all aspect of relationship... with self and with others.

 The symbiotic relationship , I think ,(opinion here) is one of mutual mirroring which is not a bad thing at all but that it operates on an underdeveloped range of the senses and it not processing on rational but primarily emotional.

Regardless if one has been involved with a narcissist or not the demand of the psyche to grow is non negotiable. Every one can learn how to operate rationally and emotionally. Intuitions and felt sense are just more ways of interpreting and creating an experience. Self development is a whole life time adventure.

It would be very plain to see that during the relationship with the narcissist I seriously regressed to operating as a child, an emotional child where feelings overwhelmed and all of my other senses, gut instincts and intuitions were more or less drowned by the increase in emotion & not being able to handle them.  

This did not stop with out the help of a therapist who helped me with emotional regulation. That there is another psychology format. That sped up the process instead of trying to figure it out on my own. That is something that my care takers were supposed to teach but neither one of them had emotional regulation. Instead they dealt with emotional experiences by emotional out bursts and then just repressing. So, there was  only unhealthy examples of how to deal with emotions .  We don't always just learn out side of the FOO box either. It is something that has to be sought rather then expect that life or a partner will automatically and magically meet my childhood/emotional needs.

Jac~ thank for link... I will take a look

eyes

[LettingGo]

Crystal, it takes a SuperNatural strength to endure a nightmare of a Monster attacking your child. How you had the strength to listen to those Monsters day in & day out. That was a HUGE leap of faith that it would bring a blessing to you. -- it would have taken more than a burning bush to get me to be in the same room w/those Monsters.

[LettingGo]

CZ, thank you for sharing your writings from 2005. It is remarkable to see a person struggle for peace when she is surrounded by choas--oh how I can relate. I like the concept of teaching Self to Unlove someone who is toxic, dangerous and deadly to Self. When we are in the KoN we become so desensitized to pain. We numb ourselves in order to survive. I think the key to breaking the N-chantment Spell is that we must be repelled by the N. The N is a magNet that either attracts or repels. Sure when the N-chantment starts to weaken there is not much attraction, but it only takes a tinny bit of N-chantment to keep us attracted and connected.

[Legs]

<<I think instead I'll finish PanDEMONium (best book I read since Edgar Sawtelle) by Daryl Gregory. It's all about archetypes in the forms of demons that are almost comic book characters..very brilliant and funny but one of those novels that makes you think as you read along.>>

Until the ending which sucked. I do NOT advise this book and I am sorry I said. it was wonderful. You guys...I am having a problem and didn't get much help today from my attorney. Would it be appropriate for me to start a new thread to ask some advice about my divorce? I know every state is different, but my question is more of a what do do in this case kind of thing. I had hoped my attorney would be able to answer me today, but he more or less put it back in my lap. I know this is not a divorce forum and I don't want to make it all about that. I think I am just feeling overwhelmed at what I need to do or decide to do.

Legs, not wanting to irritate anyone other than Lucifer right now, who by the way, is in his home country, nestled in the loving arms of his family probably telling all kinds of lies about me right now. How can it be that someone so rotten and so nasty can just keep lying and lying and come out smelling like a rose?

[kericoba3]

The posts here are amazing!  I see so much of how I feel in what you are all expressing.  I struggle daily with anger and bitterness, so much so it almost chokes me.  I do have moments of calm and peace but the thoughts of revenge, anger, guilt, betrayal...you name it.....come creeping back in.  I cannot begin to tell you the pain and humiliation that being in this relationship has caused me and I just feel so unvalidated in my feelings.  Most of my friends don't understand or wonder what the hell is wrong with me putting up with such obvious abuse.  All I can say is that until you have lived it you have no idea the hold it has on your life and the possibility of walking away and forgetting are nearly impossible. I made the mistake (more times than I care to admit) of trying desperately to tell him how much he has hurt me and destroyed me as a person and in all those well rehearsed conversations I never once walked away satisified or validated.  Never once.  I was blamed, belittled, double talked, screamed at and hung up on. I have spent so much time and effort retelling the sins of his evilness so that people will see him for who he is......but it just ends up making me look like the bitter ex that had the problem in the first place.  This person has taken everything I had to offer and stripped me of all my self-worth.  He preyed on my weakness and left me alone when I needed him most.  I am not sure I will ever forgive and I know I won't forget but I am working on dealing with my inner guilt of having chosen this man.  I made a mistake.  I thought my love was enough and it would have been if he wasn't incapable of love.  I am the hardest critic of myself.  Not only does he beat me up emotionally but I also beat myself up.  If only I had wa;ked away sooner, if only I had not been so retrusting, loving, niave, whatever.  I am working on forgiving myself and understanding that my past is paving the way to my future!  I am desperately trying to understand is was a huge mistake but it does not define who I am. So what if everyone else thinks he is super, I don't and that kills him.  I am true to myself and I will wake up one day soon and realize that that day is the first day of my new life and that the past is just that and it will be like I am living 2 seperate lives.  I have him to thank for showing me what I DO NOT WANT and for showing me that I can rely on myself.  He also showed me that I can pretty much live through anything.

This was truly inspiring words to read from all of you.

Hugs,
ME

[RB22]

Although I am not the moderator, I do know that divorcing a N is very different from divorcing anyone who doesn't fall into the cluster B category.   I think some members who are not as far along as you will benefit from this type of question.

so my vote is for you to ask away... that is IF I get a vote.... do we vote?

Sounds like you need a  so sending one your way.

RB

[eyes_up]

Hi Kericoba3,

I hope you read a part of my post that states basically that forgiveness come later and not when one is in the nearest after math.

"I am not sure I will ever forgive and I know I won't forget "...  and I don't think you even have to consider any of this right now. In fact what is happening is exactly what should be happening. Processing anger, grief and many other feelings. There is no forgetting. What does happen as you change and grow is that your emotional energy will leave that experience , regroup and what you will remember will be a learning experience, an opportunity to grow.

"I am desperately trying to understand it was a huge mistake but it does not define who I am."

No one event, situation nor relationship can ever define all of who you are. Who you are is always evolving and changing. Mistakes happen so we can learn. Embrace your mistake as a self evolving lesson. It may not feel like it and you may be swamped in self criticism but essentially Life gives us one thing and this is precisely what we humans have to do... make lemonade. So be nice to yourself and know that it is part of life to make mistakes and that you will make mistakes again. work towards never making the same mistake twice and becoming compassionate towards yourself.

One more thing, It is OK and understandable that you feel bitter. I would say you are normal in that feeling. Most often people find themselves afraid that they will live the rest of their lives feeling bitter. That is understandable as well... but now that this is in your awareness and you are no longer in that relationship you have every means , every opportunity to work through this challenge and expand who you are , feel alive and work towards self trust. If it is at all possible, I highly recommend finding a good therapist. Working with a good guide speeds up the process and works it through thoroughly so you don't have to trip over the repeat button ever again.

((((hugs))))

eyes_up

PS... Do your self a favor and be precise as to who you share this business with. You deserve support and for those who can not give what you need ... their voice does not count. No one knows untill they have been there so the best support is from those that have been there and also those that understand how to support. Not every one does.

[Legs]

I would surely like to read any words from anyone here that divorced one of the monsters. I am so angry and distressed I cannot focus on all the stuff I need to be doing or focus for anytime at all. I am exhausted, but can't sleep. Lucifer was supposed to turn is his interrogatories on the 14thm but he got an extension so he could go to his home country for his annual family reunion. I got my interrogatories last Thursday and I am supposed to have them all done by the 28th. Apparently my attorney sat on them for two weeks. I am scared...he knew from day one that all my evidence (well, most of it anyway) was electronic, but today he asked me what a cookie was?

I spent days and days making a color coded Excel file showing the date, person emailed, subject line, and a selection of direct quotes from the AOL email file so that you can type in a phrase into the search box, and pull up the email(and then I gave four different color codes for like sex, drugs and rock 'n roll) and you can sort the list by women's names, events, etc....now he wants me to print out 18,000 kb of these files (and make three copies) but most of the stuff is in binary code except for just a small text file here and there that actually contains the email text..his only, not the ones for the OW. And he says I can't copy and paste the files because then they'll be altered. I asked him to send a dvd of the original email folders to the AOL legal department to authenticate the files, and he said he didn't think it was necessary..........supposedly he is on good terms with our judge, but I am thinking he is not computer savvy enough to do this.

I don't think he even thinks the proof of adultery is all that necessary and he doesn't seem to be willing to ask for certain bank records I want and reimbursement checks from where Lucifer works. I am worried that I have spent another pile of money for nothing.

I feel dejected and overwhelmed and don't even know now what to do. Everyday is just another chit sandwich. I have done everything I thought I should do to prove up what he did for the last 16 years. I want to contact the university and let them know what's gone on, but my attorney doesn't want me to do that because he said the court will believe that I was the one who exposed him and they will think I'm vindictive and apparently I'm already going to be in a world of trouble because I am twenty years younger than him. WHAT????????? I am not a young gold-digging bimbo. I was married to that @$$ for 17 years. Does the man always win no matter what?


Legs, feeling like all I did was for nothing. How can someone do all the things he did, leave a record of so many illegal and immoral things, and just slide out like a t*rd??? If the legal system screws me as bad as he did, then I will wind up being one of those people who take the law into their own hands. I finally understand why that happens. This probably should NOT be here under the forgiveness and acceptance thread....I probably should make a new topic called How to Divorce a Narcissist in Ten Million Really Hard Lessons

[Jacintae]

I feel dejected and overwhelmed and don't even know now what to do. from Legs

Dear Legs

Just reading your post I can see your frustration and your upset. I am so sorry it has come to this for you.

I am so sorry to say that I don't know much about either divorce or the US legal system. I think you could start a new thread on this - I'm sure there are others who have been in the same place that you are today.

Other than that - I can see that you are a pretty organised gal. You seem to have come this far well in sorting out the facts and information that you need. So far so good. Don't give up now. Could you get back on to your attorney and explain the situation to him. Do you need more time? Could you negotiate something?

Legs, you have been through a huge amount of sh*t and hopefully you are getting to the end. Stay strong, stay calm and just take one step at a time. I realise that what I am saying is possibly no help at all - but I just want you to know that people are listening and I'm sure someone will be able to help.

Keep that chin up

Love
Jac xx

[Jacintae]

Regardless if one has been involved with a narcissist or not the demand of the psyche to grow is non negotiable. Every one can learn how to operate rationally and emotionally. Intuitions and felt sense are just more ways of interpreting and creating an experience. Self development is a whole life time adventure.

It would be very plain to see that during the relationship with the narcissist I seriously regressed to operating as a child, an emotional child where feelings overwhelmed and all of my other senses, gut instincts and intuitions were more or less drowned by the increase in emotion & not being able to handle them from Eyes.

Eyes - this was a wonderful post. I agee that with the N, I did feel reduced to acting like a lost child. I was completely disempowered in his presence. And I feel so sad sometimes when I recall how badly I let him treat me.

But you are right. 'Self development is a whole life adventure'. Yours was such a hopeful post and I got a lot of strength from it. I am also realising that yes, 'right action' is often the immediate answer. And NC really is the only way to peace.

Thank you for such a great post.

Love

Jac xx

[LettingGo]

  kericoba3 to WoN. Your words are also inspirational. It speaks of a woman who has been through a lot and is processing a lot. This is a time to be your own best friend to Self. I know it seems strange and it was for me too. I had no problem being a friend to others, but I had a trouble being friendly towards myself. Accountability & Responsibility is the balance of Truth and Grace. Know that you did not stay in the KoN not one minute longer than you needed to nor did you leave a minute too earlier. You stayed long enough to realize that you did all that you could do and the problem is w/the N not being able to love rather than you not being good enough for his counterfeit love.

Eyes is one of the many heros of WoN for a reason. She shares great wisdom. I can only second everything she has said in her post above.

 

In fact what is happening is exactly what should be happening. Processing anger, grief and many other feelings. There is no forgetting. What does happen as you change and grow is that your emotional energy will leave that experience , regroup and what you will remember will be a learning experience, an opportunity to grow.~Eyes

Do not rush the process. Trust that you will not stay in anger, grief, biterness, etc. This too shall pass. I know at times it doesn't seem like it will because one day is better and then you go on for awhile then something triggers the wound and that is actually a good thing because it indicates that there is still more healing to come. The entire process is a healing process, I am barely getting to the peace. Peace is not a place you can travel too, it comes to you, or at least you meet it half way.

Working with a good guide speeds up the process and works it through thoroughly so you don't have to trip over the repeat button ever again. ~Eyes

Seeking help is a blessing we give our Self. You are worth it! For what it is worth I think you are doing great. There is strength in your words.

[LettingGo]

Leggs  I hate that you are going through all of this. I don't know what state you live in so I don't know if the N's evil accounts will even be allowed in court -- but at least you have them if you can use them. Your attorney should be able to find away to point out how devious the N is and how you can not believe a word he says. It sucks when you have to fight your own lawyer to his/her job to advocate and go to battle for you. My H and I had a court case that we had to settle out of court because our own attorney did not see it cost effective for his law firm. Who cares is some people think the worst of you because you told the truth about the N. You are not going to make everyone happy by exposing the truth. When I had to expose The N in Sheep's Clothing I had to ask myself what good would come of this? Most likely people will not believe you, some did and some did not, but that was not the point. The point was to tell the truth so that others will be aware of an unsafe person. Sure there was a kill the messenger type of thing that happened from one of the Ns enablers, but time confirmed the truth that was told,
http://dealingwithtoxicpeople.blogspot.com/2010/05/buyer-beware-unsafe-forum.html

Maybe you can not use the info in court, but you have the right to warn others of what the N has done. Some will not believe you and some will, the point is you told the truth, you are planting a huge  to warn others of  If there are those who don't want to listen to your warnings that will be on them, there will be others will appreciate the warning.

[ranger]

 But 'in the heart of crisis lies opportunity' ~ Jacintae...

This thread today really touched me.. I just had to post something!  As you all know (or may not) know after a YEAR of NC - I heard
from him and spiraled down quick to the level of sitting in my family physicians office today telling her to "run lots of blood work" because I KNOW
something is wrong.  She was like ok but I think your "depressed" DUH!!! I look horrible, haven't slept in days and I left there and came home sobbing
and read this thread...I guess the final blow was yesterday after stringing out his e-mails when he hit me with "oh by the way I am in love with
someone else now but no woman has had the effect you will ever have on me"... I felt like the biggest dumb a>>>>..and KNOWING it made HIM feel
good to HURT ME YES - AGAIN!! My point is (yes there is a point as you all shake your head -typical N crapola) THANK GOSH I am NOT the new woman
and I will get up yet with a few scratches AGAIN and focus on me - THANK GOODNESS for this site to make me go "HELLO" wake up girl!!! My doctor looked at me today like get a clue - and she didn't even know what my week was really about at all...I left there cried the whole way home and am STILL looking for his  emails...but you know what?  I read this and felt strong again! so thank you all for sharing -   RAnger

Then the time came whe the risk it took
To remain tight in a bud was more painful
Than the risk it took to blossom.------Anas Nin

[LettingGo]

Thank you Ranger for being so brave to share w/us that you got burned. We have all done that. We have all reached out again hoping not to get burned.

I like this too, thank you for sharing it w/us

Then the time came whe the risk it took
To remain tight in a bud was more painful
Than the risk it took to blossom.------Anas Nin

This is so true, the pain of leaving is nothing compared to the pain of staying. Thank God you are not the new woman. Okay, so you're not quite where you want to be, but thank God you are not exactly where you use to be -- this is progress!

I guess the final blow was yesterday after stringing out his e-mails when he hit me with "oh by the way I am in love with someone else now but no woman has had the effect you will ever have on me"

This is the hook! I know it because it sounds familiar to the one Counterfeit Prince #1 said to me when I finally went NC, you will find other guys who will want to be with you, they might be better looking, smarter, and have more money, but they will never love you like I do. I was born into the KoN and had two Nparents who did not love me and the first "love" of my life seemed to love me compared to what I grew up with obvious abuse. Because I compared his love (covert ambient abuse) to their obvious lack of love I thought there might be truth to his statement. Although his "love" did not feel right it was better than overt abuse, so what if he is right and I don't find someone who can love me better than him. Well Ns are liars. They are great liars because they believe their own lies. Thank God I risked it. I realized that he brought pain into my life, sure it was less pain the Nparents, but still pain. I thought if he wasn't in my life than I would have less pain, because being w/him was painful. These Ns will tell you any lie you are willing to believe to keep you hooked. The truth is if they really loved us they would value us and not devalue us. Where there is love there is no abuse and where there is abuse there is no love.

Taking care of Self means accepting the truth no matter how painful it is.

Legs brought up this point, when you get sick and tired of being sick and tired you make the change and go NC. You will do it when you are ready.

The thing about breaking NC is that it doesn't take you nearly as long to go back to NC as it first did to begin NC. I had to break NC because when I did this last time I gathered more info about the N that confirmed the info. I had before and provided me w/a Truth Too Painful To Ignore. I could no longer lie to myself that the N loved me at least some little bit, because she made it very clear that she did not. I understood that she was a terrible Mother, but never knew just how evil until I had my own D and knew I could never hurt her the way this evil Serpent Mother hurt her children. I would do anything to protect my child and this Momster will do anything to hurt her child. If the Momster knows where your wound is, where you are vulnerable, she does not bring compassion but a sharp dagger, then after she has hurt you claims "you're just too sensitive and need to get over it".

A year from now Ranger you will be in a different place regarding this wicked N. Okay so you are looking forward to his e-mails, at least you are not jumping in his bed.

Have you made your He loves me Not list? This is very empowering. Write it out to get it out!