Thread originally published July 2006
From: Determined_Allie (Original Message) Sent: 7/12/2006 12:30 PM Does not forgiving impede our progress towards healing? This has always been on my mind. I have had this discussion with professionals such as my psych as well as family and friends as well as with my daughter. She refuses to forget and forgive - her anger is hidden below the surface. The anger for her is still there. For me also but we both control it well. We aren't in denial just realize that being angry will only cause us to fester and become toxic ourselves.
I have recently started reading a book called "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward - she has written some other books such as "Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them" and "Obessive Love". I am reading this book to try to gain some insight into my daughters thinking.
A chapter has come up that I think all of us can mull over and can relate to. It is called "You Don't Have to Forgive".
Many of us think that forgiveness is essential in order to be able to move on and heal ourselves. I am not one of those - I think that forgiveness must be asked for and there has to be redemption and a willingness to make amends. There must be true remorse and responsibility taken by the abuser in his or her acts of abuse. We must be able to stand before our abuser and tell them exactly what happened. To me that is essential - confronting the abuse and know that that abuser is willing to accept responsibility for what has been done.
In this chapter it clarified for me that I am confusing true forgiveness with giving up the need for revenge. Forgiving someone who did what they did is denying to ourselves that it ever happened and we just want to forget. We need to get angry, we need to grieve and we need to stop diminishing the impact of their toxic behavior's affect upon us and our children.
This is a difficult topic to discuss because many of us have such mixed feelings about forgiveness. We feel that if we don't forgive we won't be able to move on or heal. I think the opposite is true - that if we blindly forgive then we can't move on and heal. To forgive is to accept blame and responsibility for what happened to us. I am not going to do that - the blame and the responsibility lie with the maN. I for one do not accept his projections nor his blame or his denial of my and my daughter's reality. He has to carry the responsibility on his shoulders for the emotional damage he has done. So, does the OW.
Going back to the book, I originally got the book for my daughter but she feels that she is not ready to read it yet so I am reading it. Many of you struggle with the damage that an N does to a child. This is an excellent book for those children old enough to read it. Has some excellent insights.
Love
Allie
From: AwakenedMinds Sent: 7/12/2006 1:07 PM Dear Allie: There is no way that I can forgive what this person did to me, I do believe in rightous anger. I will be able to forgive maybe later, maybe when I know that Karma has appeared or I receive my stolen money, but until then I can't. I think maybe it depends on how things ended with some of us. When I do have those moments where I would like to boil his personal parts in oil., I have a little pray and just say "I know that it isn't good for my health to say and think these things, but keeping it inside would make it worse, you know what this person has done to me, please put it right and forgive him for me because I simply cant"
hugs Pam
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 7/12/2006 1:42 PM (handing Pam some Canola oil....) Hey, is that pot big enough for two?
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 7/12/2006 1:46 PM Allie, you make good points.
For me, I have forgiven him - he is a mentally ill person with a debilitating disease and will never, ever get well. However, I will never forget...to forget history would make me bound to repeat it (lordie, did I say that? I sound so corny!).
I don't think about revenge...I think being held prisoner in that mentally ill mind of his is sentence enough.
From: AwakenedMinds Sent: 7/12/2006 2:25 PM Foofoo: I just went to check! Yes it is! hehe!!
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 7/12/2006 2:26 PM I wouldn't wish that incurable disease on my own worse enemy. I cannot begin to imagine what it is like to have a lifetime of total unfullment and mental illness.
From: barbarany_9 Sent: 7/12/2006 10:49 PM Forgiveness is overrated. EstrangedNH and N2 did things that only God can forgive... I am human and I just can't. Perhaps if they were the sort of people who would own and take responsibility for what they did, recognize and take steps to make amends - but no - they won't because they can't - they are Ns. And I have minimal and no contact, respectively - to protect myself and my human nature.
I don't suffer fools gladly either. I am learning in my 'old age' to try to be more patient. But people who trounce my boundaries, try to tell me how to behave and how I SHOULD etc etc. Sorry - buh-bye!! I just don't have the stomach for it. What has really helped is that I really have stopped caring about the opinion of people who harm me & whom I don't respect.
This quote comes to mind:
"Powerful and sneaky people use apologies as end runs around repentance. They betray a trust; and, when they have been found out, they say they are sorry for "mistakes in judgement"... They get by only because we have lost our sense of the difference between repentance for wrong and apologies for bungling... We should not let each other get away with it. A deep and unfair hurt is not a mere faux pas. We cannot put up with everything from everyone; some things are intolerable. When someone hurts us deeply and unfairly an apology will not do the job; it only trivializes a wrong that should not be trifled with." -- - Lewis B. Smedes, "Forgive and Forget"
B.
http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com
From: AwakenedMinds Sent: 7/13/2006 3:19 AM Barbarany: I really liked that quote. I could go on forever and bore everyone about the insiduous things "N" did including arranging to have my phone cut-off on Christmas Eve, knowing full well that my daughter would be at the airport and I would not be able to call anyone over christmas including my dad who was very sick. How in gods name can you forgive someone who deliberately sets out and plans ahead of time to do these things???? He told the phone company that the apartment was now vacated and that no-body was living there. Lets pray that Karma does exist.
Hugs Pam
From: AwakenedMinds Sent: 7/13/2006 3:21 AM Allie, great thread.
From: CZBZ Sent: 7/13/2006 10:01 AM Dear Allie,
I wrote a long reply yesterday and then brilliantly X'ed out of it by mistake. ARGH...Maybe it's a good thing though because the words leaping off my keyboard created a RANT, not a soothing, spiritual, comforting and thoroughly nauseating CHANT about the lofty essence of forgiveness. I've been working through this idea of forgiveness for a long time now and actually wrote about 'my state of being' last year when we created the WoN Forum. The essay on our Link Pages is one of my 'shorter' messages (lol) which leaves out a lot of what I wanted to say yesterday.
Let me start all over again by adding this quotation from our Forgiveness page:
"...In our experience, the self-imposed pressure to forgive the perpetrator often gets in the way of genuine recovery, as it can act to shut off the patient's necessary expression of anger and self-validation of feelings. When patients ask about the subject, we usually respond by telling them that in our experience, forgiveness is a feeling or condition of being more than an act. As such, it cannot be legislated or decided upon; if it happens, it happens on its own..." ~Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman
It takes a lot of courage to write a message like yours, Allie. Especially in a postmodern environment making us feel guilty for holding anyone to principles or values we know to be critical for a healthy society. We say our former-Beloved did us 'wrong' and folks jump in with accusatory statements that we are unloving, viewing things through our projections (O man...don't get me started on that topic!), we are hateful, vengeful, angry, spiteful, scorned people who ought point the finger of blame at ourselves rather than towards those we perceive to have harmed us. Because after all, or so the mantra goes, abuse is a two-way street and we need to look at ourselves before accusing anyone of breaking 'our' rules of moral conduct which of course, are based on a judgmental perception of what other folks ought do.
There's a whole lot of head-spinning bulloney being spouted from pulpits, bookstores, TV and radio by those who would LIKE us to let 'em off the hook and not hold anyone accountable but ourselves for our own abuse! And to really get my blood boiling, just try telling me my anger is the result of unhealed wounds in myself because I do not love my partNer unconditionally. OMG I'm figuring there's a few Ns behind tattered media curtains spinning webs of lies as fast as they can because god forbid women should start voicing their experience with an abusive maN...or vice versa. As soon as we have the confidence and the FORUM to speak to the abuse we have experienced whether it's in relationship, the workplace, religion, academic environments, or in our own families, reality spins backwards and WE are the abusers! The downtrodden are talking and we are telling the truth of our lives so there's no doubt in my mind we will experience a backlash meant to shut us up and maintain the status quo. This IS my opinion and I shan't decorate it with platitudes to make the guilty feel more comfortable.
There comes a point when we look at the bruises on our butts and no longer say 'we asked for it.' If somebody kicks me when I'm bending over backwards to be supportive, well---the answer is not to stop bending over. The answer is to hold the kicker accountable for making the choice to kick. And puh-leaze do not nobody suggest to me that the 'kick to my azz' only hurt because it is my faulty perception that I am 'suffering and miserable' since that Kick was meant to wake me up to a greater reality in which unconditional love rules and abusers are only our TEACHERS whom we have invited into our lives to show us where we are unconsciously wounded. ARGH
Now I don't mean to make anybody upset with my ranting here because I can 'leap' into spiritual discourse and grasp the lofty idea of life being all about Love. But when we've been hurt and abused and suffered the consequences of someone elses' choice to hurt and abuse us, then it does no good to sooth our ANGER with denial of just who did the kicking and just who has the bruises to prove it. I fear (o now there's a nasty word, eh?) I fear we are losing our sense of JUSTICE because we dislike public reprimands for being Righteously Indignant towards those who would rather we not call them on their shite or hold them accountable with negative consequences. Until our abuse is validated, supported by community, accepted as a social responsibility for all of us to stop those who tear the fabric of human civilization into shreds, we must NOT forgive. Even if we do achieve an inner peace everybody seems to want these days, we must never Forget! Forgetting is not forgiveness---it is denial. It's just that now, we are trying to put the whole world to sleep again by holding the abused accountable for any evil or mistreatment they have experienced!
Besides, the angriest people I've ever met are those who insist they Love and Forgive everyone.
If we cannot face the earthplane’s manifest reality such as it is, we must not jump into nondual Absolutes and expect to be mentally healthy. We don't live in the afterlife---we live in a world of right and wrong and MUST make choices. Even believing that the nondual reality IS reality can be an escape from reality. I think a lot of people do not want to make those hard choices and prefer turning a blind eye to those who are being abused-----not only by their so-called Beloveds, but also by society itself! We have a responsibility to one another to stop those who intend to DESTROY while pontificating about everyone’s power to CREATE their own reality according to their perceptions. Well, let me interject my religious belief here to underscore an important truth for me: God already created reality. I don’t have to.
I sense also that we must be AGGRESSIVE about protecting one another from those whose distorted perceptions allow them to harm others in the name of love. It’s essential to realize that if there is no self grounding people to the mud upon which we walk, there is nothing to transcend. Spirito-psycho-babalonia might offer a soothing balm to suffering souls, but it does not change the fact that we live in a world with people who harm others---even intentionally! Suggesting we are only harming ourselves if we are angry about that, is preposterous...in fact, I think it is INSANE. gggrrrrrrr.....
How was that for a morning rant?
p.s. Not done yet...LOL...I have been told that I view Ns as threatening creatures because of my faulty perceptions based on fear. Do ya hear the BLAME here?? Do ya hear the 'don't hold folks accountable for their misbehavior because they do not understand LOVE'? Do ya feel the same chaos inside that most of us experienced when the N was telling us one thing and doing another? Well, folks can try to tell me my azz is bruised because I see the N as threatening all they want to. The truth is: My azz is bruised because he kicked me. Period. Until I am very clear about that, any pretense of forgiveness is nothing but spirito-ruptus...The more grounded we are in reality, the more spiritual we are as a direct result.
Let me clarify my last quote: The more grounded we are in the manifest reality, the more spiritual we are in the unmanifest ground of our being...
Much love to you, Allie!
CZ
From: neveragain Sent: 7/13/2006 11:40 AM CZ.....A Men to what you wrote! I have some thoughts in the area of being judgemental...which kinda goes along with forgiveness....so, I'll add my little 2cents on that one ...if you don't mind.
I was told by others that I judged my X too harshly in the aftermath of our divorce and was showing symptoms of being a man hater because "a man did me wrong"....I wanted to puke! So, I worked on myself and healing... getting back to giving the benefit of the doubt thing and making sure the actions and words were in sync. whenever I dated. I thought I had leaned something along the way.lol All seeemed to be going along quite well and then bam!!!! Yet another wake up call to put my judgemental hat into action and not ever take it off....ever. After 9 years of singlehood....after my daughter's were off to college..... I became engaged to the most slick, consistant in behavior, and harmful N of them all! I had been duped again..... now I wear a judgemental hat (with earflaps)(smile) and a heart that says, I only need to forgive myself.....and those that sincerely ask for forgiveness....the others....I don't trust any further than I can spit and they do not deserve the time of day!
End of rant.
Love,
Neveragain
From: growingintomyself Sent: 7/13/2006 11:42 AM TO ALL, Forgiving was not to be in my plan for healing and I am just doing fine. I need to concentrate on myself and my S ..our mental health and not his sorry a$$. What I forgive you for almost strangling me??> I forgive you for lying. I forgive you for sleeping with every twenty something year old while the community knew it and I was sitting home cooking cleaning and helping S grow into teh decent man that you are not? I forgive you for spending all of our(my) hard earned money on clothing, expensive restaurants, and flavors of the month?? I forgive you for playing victim...GIMMEE a break. I was a doormate and if I had my way, he would be fertilizer in my garten. At least he would make a positive contribution there!!!! I will never never look into his eyes with understand staying those three wordss"I forgive you" I wouold rather be boiled in oil!!!!...growing
From: AwakenedMinds Sent: 7/13/2006 12:04 PM growing: we can't boil you in oil because thats where my 'n's private parts are going and I dont think you would like to share the pot!!!! I also feel as though I have wasted four years of my life and for those of you who have loved and been married for 20years or more I can just imagine how you feel. There can be nothing worse than everyone else knowing something except you. What a dirt bucket, I don't think there's much point in grinding him into fertilizer because nothing would grow there.
Hugs Pam
From: eyes_up Sent: 7/13/2006 12:08 PM Allie....I am an agreement with what the book says, I am also in agreement with what CZ wrote. I always was wary of the idea of forgiveness .
Forgivness to me is like sweeping the dirt underneath the carpet creating apathy.
I donot forgive people for being abusive, I do not have to.
It is not my job. I think people use forgieness as a formula to solve something that they do not understand. If the N asked for forgiveness I wold say that is your job. The only time forgiveness happens is when the person who desires it changes his/her actions. I am not pretending it didn't happen and that it is O.K.
The actions of abuse are legitimate, I acknowledge the realness of those actions. Forgiveness has unfortunately put in the catagory of peace and justice and good will to man kind, woman kind...It doesn't belong there. When was forgivenness created and why? We have heard this word since the day we were born.
Yes our mothers may have forgiven us when we cussed out loud as children but it still didn't make it O.K.
I think the action of forgiveness comes when the violators become aware put fourth the efforts to do different. then comes forgiveness, but it is not my choice.
I think what people are looking for by forgiving dosn't come by forgiving but they now not another way. We think by forgiving that the pain will disolve, that we will grow and heal. I disagree.The process of growth and healing is far larger and more challenging than just wraping it all up with.I forgive him. That is the other persons god job.
A sure sign that forgiveness is working is when people stay in the same situations and continue to accept and upkeep the raw deal.
I myself refuse to be an extension of abuse merely by forgiving. forgiveness is a cheap plastic band-aid.
This is an intence subject...Since we auto matically associate forgivness with god...since god frorgives sins
and all. Hmmmmmm
eyes
From: talia Sent: 7/13/2006 8:26 PM Hi Allie,
I think forgiveness means different things to different people and that there are no absolutes as to whether it is wrong,right, necessary or not...
To me, personally, forgiveness equates letting go. I wasn't ready to let go for a long time. I placed forgiveness in the hands of God, as I didn't feel I could or that I wanted to. It's taken on a different meaning to me as time has progressed, and now letting go or forgiveness is essential to my moving on in my own life. And it's a process and I don't know how long it will take.
I wil never forget, but I do want to let go. That's what it means to me spiritually...
talia
From: obstical Sent: 7/14/2006 8:46 AM Gosh still haven't gotten all sorted out in my head yet....I want to forget what he did so I can go on, I don't want to forget what he did because it needs to be remembered, I would like to forgive myself for not seeing it or stopping him, I would like to have the opportunity to forgive him...i/e. he apologized and at least felt true remourse for what he did...I believe this would be a small step in the healing process one that these jerks deny us! I would VERY VERY MUCH like Karma to kick in and kick his butt! Then the world would feel a bit more right and forgiveness something I could contemplate. 0
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 7/14/2006 10:27 AM CZCB: Can I borrow your Costco card? 'Cuz it sounds like we need a 50 gallon vat of oil....
From: growingintomyself Sent: 7/14/2006 10:33 AM Speaking of the "other" Ns in our lives. My N sister and mother would look at me as if I were from another planet if I were to mention "forgiveness" to them. My N sister made no moral error when she bed down my boyfriend in college. It was his fault cause she was sooo young(a year younger than me!) He took advantage of her and N mom would echo her sentiments. These people are not human. Can you forgivr your TV set or car because it breaks down?!? I remember in our abuse group, we were supposed to look in a mirror and say"I forgive you".. I could not do this. I did try. I drew angry pictures instead and cried buckets. Tears that had been repressed for years. ....growing
From: healing20060 Sent: 7/14/2006 10:41 AM Hi good people!!
This is a good subject....we have all been in religious situations, where the topic of forgivness is pounded into our heads, and we are made to feel guilty if we don't sincerely forgive someone who has wronged us.
What most people leave out of the equation is that the person who did the offense must first offer apology, heart felt, and if possible, retribution. In Old Talmudic Law, if someone did a vile act to another, that person had to pay a monetary price for his or her act....ie, they had to give up part of their herd, or food supply, to pay retribution. In some cases, the punishment for irrepairable harm was death.
In Jesus' time, He usurped that Law with His own, which was, go to the brother with a witness, confront them, if they confess their wrongdoing to you, offer forgiveness, and continue on; if they refuse, shake the dust from your feet, and move on, and provide NO CONTACT with them...(shunning).....
I guess the Good Lord did know after all, what would need to happen for all of us who have suffered such harm at the hands of non-remorseful people.
Love, healing
From: AwakenedMinds Sent: 7/14/2006 10:49 AM Yes c'mon CZ hand it over!!! foofoo's running to costco as we speak!
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 7/14/2006 10:53 AM Healing: You remind me...I remember when my N came to me to make "amends". Sheesh, what complete lip service!!! Only an N would use an AA step to his advantage. Amends...didn't know the meaning of the word.
Knowing N's as I do, I would be highly suspicious of an "apology", since they don't know the meaning of it. If the N apologizes, I'd know he/she was up to something. And, that something would involve no good.
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 7/14/2006 10:57 AM Hehehe...that reminds me of another incident. The N was supposed to go over to friends' house for dinner...he completely blew it off and, of course, the hostess was more than upset. When we were talking about it - shoot, I was so silly I was suggesting he send flowers and at the very least a written note of apology, he told me, "I don't apologize". (I think I had to pick up my jaw off the floor.)
From: eyes_up Sent: 7/14/2006 11:04 AM Foofoo..I agree with you completely. I am a stronger,wiser, and more connected person after the fact. I do not regret what I had to go through in order to peak out on self discovery...reclaiming self.
I have no need to forgive. If forgivenes is letting go then I have forgiven I have let go in order to continue. But really I didn't let go... I tranformed... radio active waste into gold. I turned the unhealthy stuff in life, the painful stuff into wisdom. Integrating all experiences...forgivness comes with understanding but it does not erase the affects, nor does it transform the lemons into lemonade, I do not think it takes away the mental bruises or other. I don't even think time heals all, not for everybody. I think their is a certain amount of work that must be done. Forgiving isn't enough for me, I think their is more to it.
It is kind of like fast food..After seeing Super Size Me...I found out that some people were sueing the fast food companies for thier wheight problem. These people were targeted consumers...they became unhealthy with their fast food meal at least once a day. Well after they sued they are faced with the fact that they ae going to have to be responcible for their health and not look for "other" to do it for them. Not to mention a change of diet and lifestyle.
So reguardless of weather I sue the companies, revenge...or forgive them for posting hambugers the size of cars and buildings in my face at lunch time...I have to deal, it is my body, my health, my responcibility. I am the one who is going to have to change conditioned habits reguarless if my culture is guilty, my parents, or my significant other. After doing this kind of work the word forgiveness doesn't exist, becuase I do not have the time to forgive i am too busy paying attention as to what must change with me.
So the answer is simple but it isn't easy.
peace,
eyes
I do think there are places to forgive...but somehow forgiveness canotes acceptance..so I do accept what has happened. So it is really about me, yet i do not find targeting people wheather it be madison avenue, comercials or N's. do not accept, I do not agree. Yet this is the world I or we are living in, I do not deny this.
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 7/14/2006 11:13 AM I agree...I think that there are some things that happen in life that you "never get over" (I will never get over my mother being shot to death). But, I do believe that there is a way to deal with those things and have acceptable and peace and have a full, happy and productive life.
From: Karenrose39 Sent: 7/18/2006 4:36 PM Forgiveness to me simply means letting it go to the point where it just doesn't impact my life anymore. I feel nothing about it any longer. I place accountability where it belongs, even if that means on myself, reconcile it with that, and move forward.
My husband asked for forgiveness when he cheated on me. Although I have forgiven him for it, he has not given me any reason to believe that it isn't happening again...or still...or if it really stopped for a long period of time.
I forgave him in the way that Jesus forgave those that crucified him..."forgive them, Lord, for they do NOT know what they do." I don't want to make it sound like I condone any type of N behavior, but the fact is that they really just don't know any better. They developed this way and for them, it's normal. Ignorance is bliss, right?
Telling them, even showing them, doesn't help because they lack the skills needed to understand that anyway. They are defective, with missing pieces, very important pieces. Step back and watch how their lives unfold because of these missing pieces.
The mind is a very powerful thing. We are able to justify ANYTHING if we really want to. We can lie Christ off the Cross if we want to. But, those with all their pieces have a hard time coping with the consequences of such behaviors. They justify stealing your money as a 3 year old justifies stealing a toy from their friend...they WANTED it and they DESERVED to have it. No gray matter...black and white in the mind of a toddler.
At that point is where the missing piece either gets put into place or it doesn't. Depends on who's handling the situation at the time and HOW they handle it. I know my h's background...his childhood...I know enough to know that he has so many missing pieces that it would take someone who can do a Rubik's cube to fix him. The fact is that their emotions...anger, resentment, pain, etc teach them how to ignore their conscious. After doing this all their life, their conscious has NO voice anymore. They really aren't smart enough to "scheme." It's like the todder...I want it, I deserve it, and that's all there is to it.
Watch a child get to that forbidden cookie jar...you'd be amazed a the contraptions they will build to get there if they really want to. Fine line between genious and insanity.
From: UnlimitedHoneybear Sent: 7/18/2006 6:49 PM I seemed to struggle with forgiveness for a long time, and I think for many of us it is compounded by the guilt we are made to feel if we don't "forgive" people for the awful things they do to us. I have come to realize that, like others on here have said, forgiveness can only REALLY be extended when the offending person ASKS for forgiveness and shows deep and sincere contrite spirit. We have a pattern in this in Christianity - God ALWAYS forgives but we have to FIRST go to Him and ASK for forgiveness.
My ex-husbaNd has never, not once, apologized to me for the pain he inflicted nor has he asked for my forgiveness. Oh, he said he "was sorry for all that mess with OW", but being sorry for something is NOT saying, "I am sorry and I am asking you to forgive me for my terrible actions toward you". I was too quick to say "I forgive you". What I offered him during my D & D was what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called "cheap grace". Too often, we believe that as Christians we must forgive, but Bonhoeffer says that if we are too quick to forgive without genuine contriteness on the part of the person who committed the offensive behavior, than we have simply given "cheap grace". There was no real change of behavior from them and we forgave without any real change in the other person.
While I am not sure I have "forgiven" my ex in the way that some people define that achievement, what I HAVE been able to achieve is the "letting go" that means I no longer wish him evil or care one way or the other what happens to him. He is simply irrelevant to me any longer, and whatever evil he continues to do toward other people, I cannot get involved or let it concern me. It bothers me that he simply seems to have come out of this smelling like a rose with most of his life intact and people just accept him and embrace him in SPITE of everything, but hey! whatever happens to him is simply not an issue with me any longer.
Forgiveness? Maybe. I just know I don't hate him any longer. Hate is NOT the opposite of love.....apathy is.
Honey
