Originally Posted February 2008
From: lisapartdeux Sent: 2/17/2008 3:33 PM Hi everyone. I'm a member in another forum and recently I decided I needed to check this place out. So I joined.
The day I joined is the day I started, and I say started, to allow myself to believe that my stbx might be a Narc. I filed for divorce in November after over a year of hell. One year and one month after our second child was born, I knew things were bad so I suggested MC and he basically said:
"You don't know where this marriage is. I am miserable and I want to leave but I don't know what to do because I love the kids. You have been treating me like shite for 5 years. I have tried to save this M, but I deserve better than you. etc. etc."The only flaw I've been able to divine since that time is that I didn't enjoy sex with him even though he's a handsome guy.
Well, I bought his crap hook, line and sinker. (But after about 6 weeks of pretzeling myself for him, I realized, it really wasn't me that had the problem.) I spent a year trying to fix my M. Then I gave up. I have worked through alot, and am finding my self esteem again. But I'm having some decision making problems in my divorce.
I feel guilty when I assert myself and stand up for my rights. I don't know how to decide what's best for myself because I keep thinking I don't want to screw him over. I have detached from him pretty well. His little games don't work on me. I'm beginning to think he might just be crazy.
But how do I get over these feelings that I have to make sure HE comes out okay too?
It's paralyzing me. I can't move the divorce forward.
From: honeybearII Sent: 2/17/2008 4:27 PM Lisa, that kind of thinking paralyzed me for several years. In spite of how my H was treating me - affairs, lies, manipulation - I was so in the HABIT of protecting him that I, also, continued to do so even during the divorce and for a time afterwards. I think this is normal when you are coming out of ANY long term relationship - particularly if you were not the person who wanted the divorce.
What makes it all more serious with a relationship with an N is that most of us for YEARS (32 in my case) have become so accustomed to putting them first before ourselves and even our children, that we continue that learned behavior.
Standing up for yourself is NOT "screwing him over". It is finally realizing that we are worthy of having OUR needs met and of making sure THEY don't screw US over, because the N will think nothing of throwing us under a bus if it suited his purposes. That was the REALLY hard thing for me to get my head around. That at the end, 32 years with me essentially meant NOTHING to him. I was like an old shirt that he just wanted to get rid of, and as long as he got out of the marriage with his oh-so-important Public Image intact, he didn't care WHO he had to lie to and hurt in order for that to happen.
He had me absolutely convinced that to talk about any of what he did to me would hurt ME and people who loved ME. LOL. Talk about projection!!
You don't have to trash him, Lisa, but neither do you need to buy into the idea that somehow keeping secrets is the right thing to do. I came out of that mess, on the other end of it, absolutely resolved that I would NEVER live those lies and secrets again for ANYONE - least of all the exNH who is was and shall forever be a real jerk.
Honey
From: Cornfield10 Sent: 2/18/2008 8:40 AM Who was it who said "I am no longer the keeper of my husband's secrets." Or was it "I am no longer the keeper of my husband's lies?"
Anyway, it was one of the best things ever said to me.
If you keep it all a secret, you can never get free from the lie that is secret abuse.
You deserve and need to do better for yourself and your children.
We must remember that their minds do not process information normally, and their attitudes are twisted so they can avoid their personal blame. They are not right in their heads and they can't think and become right because their are disordered by years of family abuse and bad attitude. This problem doesn't happen by one person. It takes a family to help produce narcissists, a dysfunctional family.
You can become a narcissist by living with them and thinking their behavior is normal. The secret must get out somehow and we must produce the change.
I have said enough for now.
Cornfield
From: sweetest_80 Sent: 2/18/2008 8:50 AM Its funny...
I realized with my exN that I was soooo busy trying to keep him happy, I never stopped to notice that he could have cared less about my happiness--in fact, he was determined that his happiness was going to come at my expense. Hurting me was never a consideration and quite possibly a bonus.
Moral of the story? Hes not worried about how you will come out in this divorce-please remember that.
From: CZBZ_1 Sent: 2/18/2008 10:20 AM Hello Lisapartdeux!
Very often, people tell us that it doesn't matter what the diagnosis is---if our partner is hurting us, we need to face reality and take action to protect ourselves. We are told that labels are unimportant and that armchair diagnoses are invalid; we ought not keep focusing on the narcissist but turn the focus back on ourselves. We might feel guilty peering through a microscope at our X's faults, especially after being told we are rewriting history to suit our own agenda. Have i covered all the criticisms thrown at people who spend hours and hours trying to understand pathological narcissism??
So why do we spend an inordinate amount of time learning the basics of pathological narcissism? Is it because we need a handy excuse as to why we were mistreated? Or is it because we are 'blamers' who find a scapegoat for our projected faults? What's the point of learning about Narcissism when the end result is pretty much the same: Grieving the loss and Moving On with our lives.
These are a few of my reasons for delving into NPD and other members may have different reasons for researching narcissism:
*Most relationship advice encourages us to take our fair share of the blame for the demise of the relationship. That works in most cases, but not with the NPD partner. We have already been accepting MORE than our fair share of the problems for years. We are frequently self-critical as a result if we do not understand the narcissist's inability to take responsibility for his or her impact on the partner and children. In other words, we learn to be less self-critical and this will increase our self-esteem by removing self-doubt about our capacity to create healthy relationships. The point for us is to take less responsibility for the problems, not more. (this is quite different from typical break-ups)
*If we understand how the NPD operates, we will not be confused by the N's behavior. We can anticipate ongoing battles without being ambushed/stalled by surprise-attacks. We know there will be continual problems dealing with the narcissist even post-divorce or separation. It's the 'surprise' that leads to either fight-flight-or freeze reactions and when we 'react', we lose confidence in our ability to cope with problems.
*We accept our reactions to narcissistic abuse as being normal for ANYONE who has partnered with or been parented by a narcissist. Ongoing research about how narcissism affects other people, helps us restore confidence in ourselves as normal folks in an abnormal situation. It's essential to continue learning about the impact of pathological narcissism now that information is readily available.
*We study and learn about the impact of the narcissistic parent on our children. This is the best way for us to support our children's healing, too. If we are reliant on typical information about Healing-the-Broken-Family, we do our children a great disservice. WE become the 'invalidator' when we offer them the typical advice about relationships. What they experience as children, goes much, much deeper than most people can fathom. Their invalidation as children is once again, invalidated if we do not understand their experience as children of Ns.
*We learn about the construction of the Narcissistic Family which gives us a head-start of accepting responsibility for changing family dynamics. There's no information that can help families like ours if we do NOT understand how the narcissistic family construction has stunted each person's maturation and growth. I can highly recommend The Narcissistic Family: diagnosis and treatment' by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman. As long as we are resistent to the idea that our family was not undermined by a NPD, we are incapable of helping our children. I am so grateful to have this information even though it's been painful admitting my participation in unhealthy parenting. The point is not to justify our actions but to help ourselves and our children create a better life for ourselves in the present.
*The healing process for anyone involved in a narcissistic relationship WILL BE prolonged grieving. Everyone suffers when a relationship ends, that's true. But the suffering we go through is a much longer process. While Kubler-Ross offers us a template for the grieving process, victims of narcissists will take much longer to heal, frequently circling back through the stages of grief for a second, third and fourth try to expell the hurt. It's essential to connect with people who are going through the same thing, otherwise, we start pathologizing ourselves rather than appreciating our courage and strength to take as long as it takes. Survivors of N-relatioNships require more validation, more reassurance and more patience by supportive others than those who were not in a N-relationship. And that's just how it is. Being able to connect with people who are also dealing with complicated grief, protects us from another round of self-invalidation and criticism.
*Even though we may require months if not years of learning about the NPD, we are not really focused on the N. We are focused on an honest review of our relationship. The goal is not to cure the narcissist or denigrate him or her--the goal is to understand the complexity of our lives. How we got 'in' the relationship, how we were impacted by the relationship, how we have been wounded and what needs to be done to restore our self-confidence and self-worth. We learn about the operations of the NPD and from there, we make an honest evaluation of the whole of our interactions with this person.
*Naming the N's dis-ease with life, is our first step towards healing what ails us. If we are still confused by relationship advice that seems to work for other people, but not for ourselves--we are trapped in a spiral going nowhere. When we put an accurate name on the problem, we have a much better chance of healing. I
*Once the N has been spotted, diagnosed and understood, we can reclaim our lives from mental obsession & looping, emotional angst, incessant self-doubt, confusion and obligation, etc. We now view the N-relationship through a lens of truth. We'd never blame ourselves from a partner's physical ailments so the key to releasing ourselves from neurotic guilt and doubt is to view narcissism as an ailment having nothing to do with anyone but the N. This has been fundamental to my healthy healing and to my empowerment as a mother. My children's father had a terrible dis-ease and he had it before they were born. They also need to be released from feeling obligated to parent the maN who ought have been parenting them. The only way for me to be able to change the dynamics of our family was to understand narcissism as a pathological disorder with no anti-dote in sight.
*Once we understand the N, we frequently gain insights into our family-of-origin. However, I must say once again and again and again: Anyone can fall in love with a narcissist. Anyone. And when they do, they will suffer a complicated grieving process (people who had dysfuNctioNal childhoods will endure prolonged grief before accepting the truth of their past.) For this reason, each person who can root out the pathological narcissism in their childhood, makes a positive change by refusing to maintain a crippling status quo, passed from one generation to the next.
Love,
CZ
p.s. If anyone else would like to contribute reasons as to 'why' you were drawn towards deeper understanding of the NPD, please feel free to comment. This is a question worthy of contemplation since we are sometimes demeaned by people who think we are irresponsible and blaming. I really do NOT see it that way. I believe the truth is completely opposite to the allegations. Many of us learn about NPD because we CARE enough to want to understand the N. It would have saved a lot of my time had I merely decided the X was a JERK, end-of-story. But that kind of attitude would have short-changed my healing and ability to help my kids and extended family. I have more compassion for his mental disorder than I'd have had for a jerk. Compassion with boundaries, that is.
From: CZBZ_1 Sent: 2/18/2008 11:05 AM "But how do I get over these feelings that I have to make sure HE comes out okay, too?"
Now that I got all those thoughts out of my head by taking the opportunity to write about 'why' it is essential for us to accurately name the narcissist as the real problem, let me say this to you, lisapartdeux:
The best and ONLY way for a narcissist to have any chance of taking responsibility for him or her unhealthy narcissism, is to deal with the negative consequences of hurtful behavior. As long as we are making it easier for them to maintain their false perceptions of Self, they will not change nor seek help for more responsible living. So you are actually doing him a favor if you allow him to suffer the painful fall-out of his choices. That's one way to look at it. Another complication is our neurotic guilt about 'alleviating' other people's suffering. Especially someone we loved. This stage of our healing ought never be diminished because we all seem to go through an obsessive period when we don't want to judge ourselves as being unloving, uncaring, unkind and unNice. But taking resonsibility for someone else's lessons in life IS being unloving, uncaring, unkind and unNice. As you've probably experienced too, we are short-changed when other people step in to protect us from the painful consequences of our decisions. So care for your partNer silently and step way back; view yourself as doing the 'right' thing by letting him own his behavior(s) so he can LEARN. If he can, that is.
When we are feeling responsible for someone else's problems, most people tell us we need to have healthy boundaries. But what does that mean? We hear it so frequently that pretty soon, it means nothing. To me, one of my healthy boundaries was doing the hard thing and ending the marriage. The X didn't want the divorce (or so he lied to himself) and yet, he was unwilling to live up to the marital commitment. I had to send him a message loud and clear: "CZ don't do Open Marriages, you idiot!"
This message also told my children that they and I were worthy of commitment and respect. Had I relinquised my values to keep the X from suffering the fall-out of his infidelity, that would have been an unhealthy enmeshment protecting HIM from his own decisions while NOT PROTECTING my children and myself from abuse. One affair might be a mistake but here's a good rule for drawing a boundary line on infidelity: three times and you're out, buddy. You now get to go to Jail directly without passing GO or collecting $200 for landing on MY SPACE.
Love,
CZ
From: Cornfield10 Sent: 2/18/2008 12:08 PM Being a business woman, a marriage is a legal contract in my book. There may be advantages to no fault divorce, but I still wish I could have made a case for meanness, stalking, neglect, endangerment, abandoning the marriage, and lies, lies, lies! It wasn't save to ride with him in a vehicle and I had to avoid it.
Since the courts couldn't help me in my worst days, it seems to me that God in his Wisdom took care of the problem for me.
Or a person could say that the man, when left alone, self destructed because he failed to take care of himself. He ate himself to death, and the cancer helped him along.
It is pretty sad when the Privacy Act allows a person to drive the family nutz and the doctors nor the family can legally take any action to help the situation. He wasn't bad enough, at that time, to fail a competency test so we were all caught in the crack.
If I have any guilt at all, it is because the Medicare system allowed thousands of dollars of the taxpayers' money to be spent on a person who could have afforded to take care of himself, both physically, medically, and financially. He had what I read in the paper as "lack of medical literacy." Isn't that a nice way to put it!
Everyone needs to take some responsibility for their own actions. He was taught that he did not have to do this, and lived a lifetime of depending on me until I pulled the rug out from under him because I was finished with the con game.
It isn't that we have to be fair with the narcissist, but rather that they need to learn to be fair with themselves. Otherwise, we must stay away.
In the end, he tried to order me to stay and care for him, but when that didn't work, he literally gave up and died in the hospital. He tried to be mean to me there, but not when anyone was listening. I could always leave the room, which I did often.
He was lucky. He died with his public persona intact and his adoring fans flocking to the funeral to pay their last respects.
I got everything else he had left. And my self respect is preserved. My faith in God is thriving, and my life is ready for anything.
Yes, raising a garden was the only activity we ever did together, with him doing the mechanical work, and my doing the menial labor. We never did raise goats together, though. Do you know how badly those billygoats can hit? Wow!
That's enough for today.
Cornfield
From: lisapartdeux Sent: 2/19/2008 11:48 AM CZ, I'm going to have to print this out and really think about this stuff. You have answered so many questions I have that I don't even know how to articulate.
It kinda dawned on me today why he keeps saying "I still love you."
I also observed, quite clearly, the behavior where he does something and then when you call him on it, he lies about the intent behind the behavior.
It was JUST OBVIOUS TO ME. And I felt empowered.
It scares me and I'm relieved to know that this grieving process will be longer for me. It makes sense. I will anticipate it and embrace it, and not doubt or question myself for it.
Thank you so much.
From: CZBZ_1 Sent: 2/19/2008 1:23 PM You are so welcome, lisapartdeux. On WoN, we are not trained therapists helping people work through their defenses and problems. That means YOU are in charge of your own healing and you can go as fast or as slow as you must. Trust yourself to know what's right for you and never fear being reprimanded or criticised by board members. Anyone who has jumped into the Void, knows that no one has answers for anyone but themselves. And one more cliche to add to your list is this: S-L-O-W is fast. Never put yourself on a pre-conceived timetable for healing or you'll end up being cruel, critical and judgmental of yourself!
I read a very good book about healing that used the metaphor of the rubber band. The authors viewed healing as a process of numerous stages as we move towards reclamation of our True Self and greater self-awareness. If we skip the angry stage for whatever our reasons may be, the rubber band from Step One to Step Five will eventually snap us back to Step One. We can stretch ourselves into a higher level of healing by ignoring or denying uncomfortable stages but the rubber band will not allow us to sit on a lotus of enlightenment if we are still denying our feelings or being irresponsible in our lives.
Those snaps are pretty painful but I go through it all the time (not just in cyberspace). Someone assumes they have reached a Peaceful Degree of acceptance and then they are suddenly triggered by an event and Snapola! Back to the anger stage they go, ripping the petals off the lotus with their clutching fingers. The greatest problem I've experienced and perhaps numerous other people too, is reaching an intellectual understanding that cannot be supported by the unhealed, embodied experience. It's not too hard to figure out where we've denied our problems because we'll be easily triggered by someone else and before we know it, we're attacking them beyond justification. So 'easy does it' and 'one day at a time.'
There are numerous ways to define the Healing Process and every author seems to put their own 'spin' on the process. This website has several excellent articles that you may want to read:
http://www.psychologyhelp.com/book.htm Be Your Own Therapist. One thing for sure, anyone who has partnered with a Narcissist, HAS A PROBLEM they'll need to confront at some point.
STAGE I - DENIAL
I deny that I have a problem. I just drink a few glasses of wine every day to soothe my nerves. I paste a smile on my face and pretend I am not bothered by my spouse, children, boss or parents. My mild depression seems normal and OK. This stage is often confusing. Am I really in denial of a problem or is my lack of concern caused by the fact that I really don't have a problem? In either case, anger on your part will probably be unsuccessful in getting me to change. For if I am denying a real problem, my denial is already defensive. Anger by you then will often just make me more defensive and less willing to listen to you. If your anger is directed at my non-problem, your anger is just going to seem foolish to me. I am then likely to conclude that you are the one with a problem that needs solving.
STAGE II - BLAME / HELPLESSNESS
I deny any fixable problem (i.e., fixable by me). I have a problem but there is nothing I can do about it; because it is all your fault, because I tried once to change it without success, because that is the way life is, because everyone is the same as me, etc. But I do admit I have a problem. This is often the stage of righteousness, judgments and anger that serve to keep me preoccupied with what I believe you should be doing rather than face my own discomfort. I often claim that it is impossible to change my unhappiness and anger until you change. If there is one stage that most represents the USA in the late 1980s and early 1990s, it is this stage. It seems as if each group is placing blame on outsiders for its problems and difficulties, thus dodging individual and collective responsibilities for changing group insiders. We have often convinced ourselves that others need to change before happiness is possible for us. Suppose they never change? Are we then not locking ourselves into perpetual unhappiness? The choice to be "happy" instead of "right" is frequently encountered and often difficult to make. I believe this blaming righteous stage has been useful and necessary, for we have learned that anger and speaking out are OK. But I believe we will be harmed if we remain there much longer. It is also the unhappiest stage of healing.
STAGE III - WAITING
I have a fixable problem but choose to do nothing about it right now. This is a common resting point that we all necessarily choose every day for at least some of our problems. We only can work on so many problems at once. The fewer the problems we choose to work on, the more likely will be our success at those fewer problems. Waiting does not necessarily deserve to be pejoratively labeled as procrastination, though such a label may occasionally be the truth. There is the need for occasional complete abstinence from "working on our problems" for a few days or weeks or even much longer.
Personal growth is like a hike of a million and one steps; one at a time is the only way.
STAGE IV - WORKING on my problem
Stage IVa - Making a New Choice It is essential to make a new choice such as: talk to my boss, parents, spouse or child in a new way, read a book on my problem (this book or one oriented to my specific problem), plan to record one's dreams, start a journal, meditate about the problem, try self-hypnosis, find a therapist, etc. Impulses need to be consulted, acknowledged and tried out (if they are not damaging). Most often the best new choice is just a small change to the previous choice.
Stage IVb - Evaluating the New Choice
Do I still have the problem/ symptoms? If yes, then I need to return to stage IVa to make a new choice or to stage III to let the problem rest for a time. My newer choice may just be a small modification if my earlier choice seemed to be along the right track. My newer choice will probably be very different if my earlier choice seemed to result in disaster.
Stage V - RESOLVING (Letting That Old Problem Go). This is the stage where a particular problem or symptom finally seems small and no longer dominates me. Forgiveness, not the glib kind, is required here. Many "forgive" others falsely. When I dredge up or when I still feel strongly about old arguments/ actions, then I have not forgiven, and I have therapy/ growth work to do. Genuine forgiveness implies that not only do I fully understand why my parents (for example) intentionally or unintentionally traumatized me the way they did, but I fully understand my reactions and responses over the years. The words "if only" become meaningless, for I totally accept, without regrets, the problem (or symptom) and its history.
A healing quiz on making changes
http://www.psychologyhelp.com/chngquiz.htm Love,
CZ
From: lisapartdeux Sent: 2/20/2008 5:44 AM "The greatest problem I've experienced and perhaps numerous other people too, is reaching an intellectual understanding that cannot be supported by the unhealed, embodied experience. It's not too hard to figure out where we've denied our problems because we'll be easily triggered by someone else and before we know it, we're attacking them beyond justification. "I have become aware of this in myself, the trigger and attacks. I make conscious efforts to not react, or apologize if I've overreacted. I really want to be healthy. I understand the concept of intellectually understanding but not having reached a place emotionally. I will apply it to the experience of healing myself from this relationship.
I have 2 very small children with this man. I need to know who he REALLY is so I can better parent them. I feel mildly resentful, but I realize this is what my life looks like and, as with all things, I will find a way to cope and deal with it.
I am going to reclaim myself and my self-esteem. I want me back.
CZ, you and your forum totally rock!!!
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 2/20/2008 5:20 PM Welcome! I hope we can be of some help and I hope we can be of some support.
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