N traits in myself.

[Jacintae]

Hello

I know there is the possibility that I am driving everyone to craziness on this board with my inability to stop posting at the moment and I really hope you can bear with me. I have tried for so long to get confident regarding NC with the N but somehow at the last moment I have weakened until recently. But lately with all the help I have had on here I have got a real glimmer of a chance for me to get free on the N and I want to grab it with both hands.

I know I maybe be overanalysing my reality. I have been in denial for so long that maybe I am driving myself mad with all this. But did anyone else, when they really sat down to try to work out what was really 'bonding' to the N, get worried to find that they too had some N traits within themselves?

I don't know - when I first found out about Nism - I thought is was the most horrid philosophy of life. And what made it so much worse is that basically it seems to me that an N does not have the ability to become self aware enough to ever really see the problem. So it's a done deal for them and the only answer to a relationship with an N is a clean pair of heels.

But then I have gone back to try and see my own patterns and I am a bit gutted to see that, yes, I too definitely have some N traits.

You know, I find it easy enough to be 'social' and pass myself off at gatherings etc. but I do find it hard to find 'belonging' and 'bond' with people. I realise now that I have worn a huge mask for a lot of my life. What I thought was struggling to get to the top of my job could really be an extremely close relative of 'grandiosity'. My Mother is an N and I can definitely see 'n'-injury in myself. And when I write out how 'obsessed' I was with the N, when I spin that coin around, in reality there was a lot of 'self obsession' there too with myself. Because I had so little 'inner strength' I was a little like a starved vulture looking for 'life's meaning' in another human being. I did give him financial help - and that seemed like a good thing at the time, but now I really have to question that - was I really looking for control and a way to forcibly try and make that guy bond with me? In honesty, what I looked on as loyalty and patience to that guy - was I really just a manipulative biatch who would not take 'no' for an answer? I mean he blew 'hot' a lot and DID come on strong but was I just too needy in looking for 'love' ( supply?) from that guy that I denied the reality of things eg red flags, friends' advice etc.

I am not really having a nervous breakdown on this ( ) but I just wondered if anyone else went through this phase?

Lots of love


Jac xxx

[Litha]

Jacintae, everyone has some narcissistic traits, it's normal. What sets a narcissistic apart is their inability to sit down and think about their own shortcomings. The fact that you can look inside yourself and identify potential character flaws proves (to me anyway) that you are not a narcissist.

Normal people will always take a few moments after a difficult experience to stop and think through how they contributed to the difficulties. We know we are not perfect. We reflect upon our actions and resolve to do better next time. That is how normal people learn and grow.

If you were a narcissist, you would be looking for someone else to blame. You would not be taking responsibility for contributing to a bad relationship.

 
Litha

[eyes_up]

Jacintea, Narcissism is not an ulgy word untill it hits pathological. There is a difference.  You write...

"I was a little like a starved vulture looking for 'life's meaning' in another human being."

It would be likely that with a narcissistic parent you are still looking for childhood needs to be met. Parents teach children meaning... self meaning etc. If you had a narc for a parent you are starved as far as I am concerned. Why the heck wouldn't you be looking for that connection one has with the parent in every relationship?

The first issue is that when one looks for for the missing piece they chose partners that are familiar as in partners (friends) that are like the parent and again the connection is not granted. The same pattern returns. A life time of reruns.


eyes

 

[CZBZ]

"I know I maybe be overanalysing my reality. I have been in denial for so long that maybe I am driving myself mad with all this. But did anyone else, when they really sat down to try to work out what was really 'bonding' to the N, get worried to find that they too had some N traits within themselves?" ~Jacintae

I have several potential diagnoses for myself, depending on which 'character traits' list I'm reading at the time. I got some borderline traits, histrionic (only when someone sits on my head and tells me I like it), a few passive-aggressive personality traits (when Garlic-in-mashed-potatoes is the only recourse for saving my dignity). I can spot all kinds of disorders with my personality including narcissistic defenses that served me well as a child but needed serious remodeling as I aged.  

Being able to 'see' those traits is one thing because even narcissists have glimpses of reality when they notice they're not perfect--which changes quickly enough. They can't HOLD that thought long enough to grieve the loss of their fantastic illusions. Other people will grieve the fact that 'defenses' were necessary as children and we grieve letting go of those defenses when it's time...some of us wish we had noticed a lot earlier than we did, but you know me, right? "Everything unfolds exactly as it should".

Listen, you can't help but pick up fleas when you lie down with dogs. That's a great cliche from the Borderline Personality disorder community. Consider yourself 'flea-ed', jacintae. You have a few 'traits' that were NECESSARY to survive childhood when the most important thing you could do as a child, was protect your soul (your self-worth). If you're like most of us and you are, you HAD to defend your inner sense of self with 'defenses' protecting you from external assaults. At some point in our lives, the 'false self' we constructed disappears, usually through life experiences (maturation).

Sometimes this 'false self' is slowly and gently eliminated with a corrective and loving relationships and sometimes it shatters like Tiffany glass with a corrosive or abusive relationship when we're adults.

Non-pathological defenses are 'flexible', they disappear as we mature. Pathological defenses are rigid and resistent to change. I picture my 'defenses' as a couple of chihuahuas and  narcissists' defenses as a couple of marble Chinese foo dogs.    

Narcissism is a dimensional construct of everyone's personality. The question is: are those traits amenable to change?

Also, this is another thought I've had about 'narcissistic traits' (ego defenses) is that we might notice them after a relationship crisis BECAUSE they are heightened, rushing to protect us in a way. We have to examine ourselves from a long view, rather than noticing and pathologizing our 'narcissistic traits' after abuse, trauma, rejection, abandonment, etc. The same traits that saved us as children may likely increase their protective services during crisis. Hummm...perhaps they are like soul-guards or something?

I also found that as the crisis diminished and I was NOT in relationship with narcissists anymore, my 'narcissistic traits' diminished without actively focusing on them. They were appropriate to the situation at the time but when not appropriate, they take time out.

If you did not see yourself in any of the descriptions of narcissism, that would be a warning sign because Narcissism is inherent to all human beings. From healthy to unhealthy to pathological, everyone has narcissistic traits.

Ask yourself two V.I.P questions:

     1) How do I handle criticism and failure? (Do you shoot the critic? Do you protect yourself with Grandiose fantasies after failure? Do you see yourself as competent, not perfect?)

     2) Are you capable of creating intimate relationships with friends and family members? Can you sustain long-term commitments?


Hugs,
CZ

[CZBZ]

P.S. I thought of another analogy which might make sense:

Narcissistic traits are like the rough edges on rocks. Put those rocks in a tumbler (relationships) and over time, the traits are worn smooth as a baby's butt. Put a narcissist's RIGID personality traits in the same tumbler (relationships) and the tumbler breaks.

LOL


CZ

[Legs]

<<"I know I maybe be overanalysing my reality. I have been in denial for so long that maybe I am driving myself mad with all this. But did anyone else, when they really sat down to try to work out what was really 'bonding' to the N, get worried to find that they too had some N traits within themselves?" ~Jacintae>>

Oh, hell yes. I am sure I learned a whole lot of bad things at Lucifer's knee. And I found myself acting just like him at the end....I became sneaky and deceitful and wore a calm face but underneath I was plotting and scheming and then I wanted to break him down like he broke me down and I wasted months trying to do it for my own personal satisfaction and all it did was break me down more and more.

I did a lot of things I've never done before and the scariest thing, is that part of me enjoyed doing some of them. I feel very proud of myself for wearing that outward dress of civility and cool cordiality while underneath I was a seething mass of emotions.

And something I just thought of..Lucifer was a seething bundle of incoherent rage while underneath he probably didn't feel anything at all. Not really. He felt stymied and shocked that he could never break me all the way down..he came so close. So many times, but I found my way out of that trap so often that after a while it didn't really even bother me anymore when he put me in there. I knew as soon as his back was turned, I'd be right back out again.


Legs, who wonders if there are rules about posting too much in a 24 hour period. Like a STFU rule.

[SusyP14]

Jac,

I don't know you very well, but I know from your posts here that you have a beautiful, gentle, empathetic heart.

Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to be a Narc.  There.  It is official.  I have declared it and therefore it must be true.  

When my sister was in medical school she would come home sure she had this disease and that disease.  My father (also a doctor) would laugh at her and tell her how common that is, in fact it even has a name:  hypochondriasis medical student syndrome.  When you read and read about a subject, all of a sudden you start to identify with it and may start to question yourself.  

I know a little about your background and it is very common of daughters of N's to have a great need to achieve, as a way to prove themselves and show that they are good enough.  That is very different from the Ns need for achievement, which is to receive glory or unwarranted respect by choosing professions where they can intimidate and have power over others.  Somehow I doubt that is you.

Love and hugs to you ...

[betterdays]

It just seems to me the degree of selfishness in the absence of a crisis is what really shows their true colors.  Under great stress or in very sick situations, we have to sneak and spy, too, in order to survive.  It makes me nervous to go through his things, and I never did before this last year.

[Legs]

I never did it either until he put a million cookies for dating sites on my computer and then I found his profile up and then he showed me a whole notebook of emails he'd written over the last two months looking for a "friend" and then  he deleted ALL his email for the last five years (but he's already backed up a copy of the organize folder onto my external drive)and then we went to marriage counseling and he lied his head off some more and wouldn't do a thing the counselor said and then you can bet your bootie I started snooping. It made me sick at my stomach every single time but it finally all started paying off when I showed all that nastiness to my atorney. And then to my second attorney. I gather they don't usually get the kind of stuff I got.

I still feel sick a lot, but now I am feeling sick that he DID it and left it for me to find..on my own d*mn computer! Not that I found it. I found a whole lot of other stuff not on my computer but hidden in the garage. I took pictures of all of that stuff too. Then I found more and more in piles of paper that he had strewn all through the house and probably forgotten about. The more I looked, the more I found so if you don't want to find it, don't search for it.

Then he denied doing all that anyway and said I did it to set him up. Sorry, Lucifer but even if I did, how on earth did I get those pictures you took of yourself in your lab with a camera you bought with grant money and sent to a woman who, strangely enough, you have been sending money too since 2006 and registering in hotels with right here in the town where you live! That's weird, huh. How all that stuff fits together.

Oh, and I haven't' even asked for the university phone records and the webcam records and all the emails you sent to all those different women using the university's computer......it will be weird if I was able to talk on the phone for hours in his lab to a woman calling me from Okinawa over the last four years especially when I scheduled the calls in emails I sent to her from his computer at work....oh, and don't forget all those times I spent with he in hotels and why on earth would I send another woman jewelry .Oh don't forget those other women that you met and whose names and numbers I found written in your own handwriting in the address book I bought for you so long ago and so much, much more...but I am sort of making myself REALLY MAD and I should be doing my Word homework so I have to stop now you lucky girls. That was just venting at it's most annoying. Sorry.


I guess that will all be called....what is it? Will it be circumstantial or direct, I wonder? Will it even be admitted as evidence? I dunno, but I've got it if they want to see it. In a way, this whole divorce thing is just a continuation of the game Lucifer played with me for all those many years.

Ok, so anyway...bite the bullet, remember you have to play dirty when someone else does, don't think you're "higher" spirit is going to win you anything in a game with these kind of stakes. If you fighting with a pig, chances are you're going to get dirty sooner or later. Might as well grease up first.


Legs

[Litha]

Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to be a Narc.  There.  It is official.  I have declared it and therefore it must be true.

WoNder Woman has spoken, so it shall be written:

Jacintae is NOT a narcissist

I'm okay with that 

[RB22]

Jacintae,

I am NO expert on N... (well just my N) but I understand the dilemma you have, cause I have the same one. 

My therapist once told me that in order for me to survive living with him.... I needed to become like him....in some ways.    Otherwise living with him would have been hell....
Therefore I can think like him.... I can manipulate like him, I can play the games he plays... I KNOW  how to do those things.

I CHOOSE  not to do those things.

The further I get away from his influence in my life.... I am less in tune to those opportunities for manipulation.  Although my gut screams at me when I hear others using manipulation tactics.  That scream is my empathetic self..... and every so often... I welcome the scream.   It means I am NOT a N.

Although it took me a bit of time of NC with the N to get to this point.

Hugs,

RB

[Jacintae]

Hello to everyone,

It's so very strange, I posted that post yesterday and went out for a walk. I found it a little difficult to come in here again - I suppose I was afraid that maybe when I had showed my true colours that I might have 'outed' myself as an N.

As well as Nism there has been a lot of alcoholism in my family. Neither of my parents ever touched alcohol - I think they were too scared to after all they had been through with their own parents. But it is very common, as I have learned, for an 'ism' to skip a generation and come back in again with a vengence to the next crowd of kids. I knew very early in my life that I was 'at risk'. So I got myself into a 12 Step programme at a youngish age and there I stayed on for many, many years.

But I knew I could never crack that Step 4. I did it over and over with many different people. That Step is 'Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves'. It's a bit like going to Confession as a Catholic. The priest is not a therapist and when I used to go, I had a few basic things like, not praying enough, having a few doubts etc - I did not really want to cause the priest any heart attacks. . I went to therapy and the same thing happened - I knew I was too ego defended to even think there was anything really wrong with me. You know, my motto was - well nobody's perfect and just get on with it.

Here on this site, for the first time ever, I have been able to really understand what that Step 4 is all about. It just unfolded to me in all the recent posts I have read. It was never about making a list about all past crimes and sins - it really is about 'being able to grow into myself'. I so appreciate all the responses to this thread. I found myself crying as I read and printed out the responses. How generous you all are.

Litha, Eyes, CZ, Legs, Betterdays, Suzie, RB22, I thank you. Once again you have strengthened my belief in the goodness of people. Every single word you have typed has helped me.

I realise now that what I used to think were my great 'strengths' - my committedness to things, my secrecy with things, my belief in 'no pain, no gain' to the extreme were 'good things'. And maybe they are - within reason, but I see how much my life has gone out of kilter. Once, last year, I had arranged with my brother, niece and some friends to go out to dinner. I had invited them and everyone was in really good humour and looking forward to it. Then the N phoned out of the blue and asked me to meet him. I dropped everything and went to meet him. It's only now when I look back that I realise that I did treat my friends badly at times. (By the way - I left some money for the dinner, that they never used anyway, - but they went out anyway and had a much better night than I had, that's for sure) They were completely forgiving to me - just hoped that I'd had a good time. My niece, is the nicest, sweetest little girl - and although she was fine about it, I knew even she was angry that she heard me crying that night when I got home. Really nobody could understand why I was wasting time on that guy.

So I do have regrets for some of the things I have done. But mostly, I am so very glad that somewhere in the last while the spell of the N has been broken for me. Like, I realised this morning - it is over two weeks now since I did a bit of 'cyber stalking' on his facebook page and I didn't even think to check to see if he is back from Rome.

CZ - I have thought long and hard about your two questions

 Ask yourself two V.I.P questions:

     1) How do I handle criticism and failure? (Do you shoot the critic? Do you protect yourself with Grandiose fantasies after failure? Do you see yourself as competent, not perfect?)

     2) Are you capable of creating intimate relationships with friends and family members? Can you sustain long-term commitments?



Funnily enough this question of 'criticism and failure' is not a new one for me. I do find both of these very 'hurtful'. I feel very diminished - but my reaction is to want to hide under the bed when this happens. I will go to the ends of the earth to try and avoid both of these. But, in reality, I have had my fair share of both these things. I won't say that it's easy but I suppose I have learned to live with these things. My sister, who is much cleverer than me and I went through school and university in the same year and form until I was in my twenties. While very young I realised I was not as quick to pick up things as she was - so no, failure is nothing new to me. I remember even is school, I used to have this saying in a notebook 'It's not how you stumble that matters, it's how you pick yourself up'. So I hope I'm Ok on that one.

On the second question - yes. I spent a long while on this. I realised this morning that I am the only person in my family who is speaking to everyone else in my family. I have few friends but the ones I have, I tend to keep - over the years. So I hope I'm OK there too.

ANd I just loved your analogy of the rock in the tumbler. 

I know I am droning on now a bit now - but I feel ( and think , that I have at last turned a corner. I don't really want to rip myself apart or lie down and die - but now I am getting more self-aware in a way I have never been able to before.

I once read this ' Imagine there is a small door to your heart. Sometimes we don't have enough 'self awareness' to learn that, in fact, the handle of that door should be kept on the inside. We let it show on the outside so any old person can come along and rip that door open. But we can learn to keep it hidden on the inside so that WE can decide when to open that door to someone'. I never really could understand that until now - but at last I am seeing what this means.

Much love and thanks to everyone.

Jac xxxx


 

[CZBZ]

Dear jacintae,

Who likes failure? Who enjoys criticism?? Nobody, is my guess. If you've been insulted, criticized, labeled 'defective goods', over-scrutinized and penalized, of course you'll suffer when you fail or receive criticism from other people. Anyone who grew up in a narcissistic family, will be sensitive to falling short of expectations; to not just failing at something, but BEING a failure.

I like the concept of 'the collapsed self'. When we 'fail' or recieve criticism (that is valid, not the kind of insane attacks narcissists deliver!), we might feel 'deflated' for a few days. I call it my Three Day Death. By the third day, I'm back on my feet having licked my wounds clean and am able to "Learn'" from the experience which usually means increasing my chances of success the next time around.

Narcissists do not learn from the experience. They PROJECT failure on to others; they devalue-and-discard the critic. (even when the critic was offering valid feedback that could improve the narc's work product, relationships, etc.) After three days, they've shot not only the messenger, they've also shot themselves in the foot.

I figure our ability to sustain three days mourning of the collapsed self is because there is a true and lively self inside (the core self). We deflate, but only so far before the True Self comes to our rescue restoring our sense of worth and value as a human being. We emerge from the three-day-death with refreshed humility which allows us to LEARN from the experience.

Narcissists, on the other hand, emerge from their three-day-death with INCREASED GRANDIOSITY which means: they never learn.


Big hugs,
CZ

[Jacintae]

Love jac

[edited to show image ~CZ]