N seems to be hiding money

[betterdays]

Is there a way to find bank accounts N is hiding?  Money seems to appear and disappear from savings and checking, and he insists it isn't  happening.  I cannot push it too much, since I am taking out some he cannot pinpoint, too.  My lawyer has said to put enough aside to live on for a little while, so I am. It looks like he has another account. He seems to deposit just what we need for expenses, and it adds up to less than his earnings.  If I cannot trace it, then I will just keep my eye on my goal and not worry about it.  If I have enough when I leave, then that's good.  If I don't, I'd like to know how to find the money.

[Jacintae]

Is there a way to find bank accounts N is hiding?  Money seems to appear and disappear from savings and checking, and he insists it isn't  happening.  I cannot push it too much, since I am taking out some he cannot pinpoint, too.  nen that's good. 

Betterdays,

I am not sure if the banking law is the same in the US  as in the  UK.

Are those checking and savings accounts you refer to actually joint accounts and are you an authorised signatory? Is so, here in the UK, if you see a 'mystery withdrawal' - you would have every right to ring the bank and get all the information pertaining to the withdrawal - i.e. date and destination. If it's the same in the US, you may be able to find details of the 'destination account' which may be the secret account the N has.

I wish you every luck with this. My N was so dishonest with money - in fact he was just a plain old thief. Now that I am in the 'rage' stage, I am stunned and shocked to see what he actually did. I hope your N does not get away with it too.

LOve

Jac xxx

[betterdays]

He banks twice a week, and the girls know him at two of the banks.  I can go to another branch, or maybe call.  I am not going to get crazy with it, since my mind is full with my own plans and just keeping level in spite of the gaslighting and attempts at arguing.  I cannot believe how sincere he appears at times.  I used to believe he was trying to deal with his anger problem and childhood issues, like he told me.  He is a reptile.

[CZBZ]

Tax records are a good way to track income. He probably lies on those, too, though.

i don't know how to track missing funds. Your best bet is to ask your attorney and tell him about your suspicions. He or she will be familiar with legal methods for making sure funds are not be diverted during the divorce.


Hugs,
CZ

[Legs]

Tax records are a good way to track income. He probably lies on those, too, though.

i don't know how to track missing funds. Your best bet is to ask your attorney and tell him about your suspicions. He or she will be familiar with legal methods for making sure funds are not be diverted during the divorce.


Hugs,
CZ

Ok, I am attempting the blue box again....my attorney seems to think it's up to Lucifer to provide the records and if he doesn't, then oh well...he asked. That is whacked. I thought they could be gotten easily from the bank, but apparently not. I am making my own side trip to the bank to see what I can discover. I have a woman there who has been helping me and she may have some tops. If I had to do this again, I would have just pushed him off the roof or kicked the jack out of the way while he was under a car.

Legs, amazingly irritated about this divorce BS

[Legs]

ok, the blue box worked, but I really only wanted to quote one sentence which I had highlighted before I clicked the quote button, Why did it copy and paste the entire post rather than that one line, and um.....was there not some talk not long ago about a Brand. New. Blog. or some such that was coming our way soon? I suppose it will be announced here amidst great hoopla and celebration???


Legs, who doesn't want to miss out just because she is glued to bank records and copy machines and all that danged Word homework every stinkin' day

[CZBZ]

You never fail to make me laugh, Legs! Yes, the new website is under construction and no, it won't fix the blue box problem. I am hoping at some point to get WYSIWYG editor but in the meantime, we will each suffer BlueBox Syndrome from time to time.

You can always check PREVIEW to see how your message will post and then edit out the words or sentences you don't want posted. But let's take a moment to CELEBRATE your bluebox quote even if it wasn't perfect.

We have had a few people on WoN who became finance detectives. You know, I could run a search on our archives and see what comes up. Lemme get back to this thread. I can fully understand how an attorney would handle it, just as you suggested Legs. Their job is to get us divorced...over and done with. There are those SHARK attorneys some people have used which can also backfire with a narcissist. Narcissists love litigation, you see.

I'll get back in a few.


Hugs,
CZ

[Legs]

You can always check PREVIEW to see how your message will post and then edit out the words or sentences you don't want posted. But let's take a moment to CELEBRATE your bluebox quote even if it wasn't perfect.

Ok, I am giving the blue box thing another whirl....Let's see what happens this time


Legs

[Legs]

YAYYYYYYYYYYY !!!!! That worked. Now I just have to REMEMBER that part. GOSH! It's so hard!!!!! Divorce Brain piled on top of mentalpause piled on top of alla dat pot I smoked in college plus I have just run out of memory it seems and dammittohell, they do not sell any at Best Buy because I already asked.

Legs, who is still operating on one of those 256MB memory sticks.
I accidentally wrote memory sucks. Is that like when you say one thing and mean a Mother????

[CZBZ]

For anyone divorcing a narcissist, you may find Ann Bradley's website useful. One thing to remember is that to a narcissist, whatever is his is his and whatever is yours is his too. (or reverse the genders). You will need to document everything you can as Legs is doing. Even after you have compiled an extensive list of finances, you may need to make concessions rather than spend every dime to recover five cents. Narcissists will do that, so don't get caught up in the same game. Figure out what is 'fair' and then expect to yield at some point. As long as the narcissist figures he's getting MORE than YOU are, you might come pretty darn close to getting what you want (and deserve).

If you are feeling guilty about what is fair and equitable, consider it brainwashing and StOp ThAt! We can help you work through the guilties narcissists are so good at manipulating to get their way.

I found this article on an old thread:

IF YOU HAVE NOT YET BEGUN LEGAL PROCEEDINGS
(Why Lawyers Love Narcissists)

This is a dangerous time. In times of danger the best thing to do is prepare. There is a method of preparation for divorce called The Tao of Divorce based on Sun Tzu's The Art of War . Men's rights groups hate this because it empowers women by showing them tactics. Men are used to doing battle. Women are not. Divorce is war. Men do not like it when women learn strategies and tactics. They will blame your knowledge on feminism, scream that men are better parents and when none of that moves you, they will cry out "FAMILY VALUES." Let them rant. But understand that they are trying emotionalism and "sensitivity" to get what they want. And what they want is lowered support and more of the pie. Here we are dealing with narcissists who are already damaged and primed to do battle. They already lie, cheat, steal and make your life miserable. They are masters at deception and projection. Gaslighting is their forte. You need financial assets to protect yourself and your children. Narcissism can be very, very expensive.

Planning Is Critical

Be prepared. If you have not yet begun the process of divorce you must protect yourself by careful planning. If you have a lot of money, your tactics will be somewhat different than that of one with lesser money. But everyone has something to protect. There will be no mercy shown by your narcissist during this time. His sense of entitlement is boundless and you will be maligned and disparaged and anything, any crumb you get will be too much for you. In his mind, you are worthless, you deserve nothing.

Plan. Plan. Plan. Make sure you have access to all the family funds and accounts. Unless it is an inheritance or there is a prenup, family money belongs to both of you. If you are not on title of the house, make sure you do this.

Get a support group of therapists, friends, family members. Make sure therapists understand narcissism and can testify in your behalf in court.

If the therapist is good but resists the words narcissist and narcissism, call it emotional and verbal abuse.

Document everything. Do all this quietly and thoughtfully or you will enrage the narcissist.

Do not discuss impending divorce. This gives him time to drain the bank accounts, change documents. When you hire a lawyer, do not tell your spouse immediately. Tell the lawyer your situation. Ask if they can handle tough cases. Make sure you interview several lawyers. Ask who the "pit bull" lawyers are so you can interview them. That way, even if you do not hire them, neither can your spouse.

Negotiate the retainer. Most family law attorneys overcharge. Try and find one that gives you some breathing space in terms of your how they charge. The more prepared, calm and efficient you are, the more the attorney will respect you. Emotion and long stories are not liked by attorneys. They are busy, they want cut to the chase information - are there custody issues? is there property to be divided? how much? what problems do you foresee?

Planning is never so important as in divorce. Get your ducks in order and do all you can and be prepared before you announce you want a divorce.

If that's too late, then begin getting support group together. It is never too late to hire evaluators or therapists for your side. If custody will be an issue, be prepared that he will try to alienate your child from you with brainwashing. Learn as much as you can before you divorce.

It won't be easy, but it will be worth it.

See Ann Bradley http://www.narcissisticabuse.com/divorcen.html

Dr. Eddy's book: Splitting: Protecting yourself while divorcing a narcissist or borderline http://highconflictinstitute.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=SPLIT

Dr. Eddy also has a blog: http://billeddyhighconflictinstitute.blogspot.com/ You may be able to run a 'search' on finances.

[Legs]

Do not discuss impending divorce. This gives him time to drain the bank accounts, change documents.

Oh, and just so you know....even after you file for divorce and even though the N is handed a big old set of Restraining Orders ordering them NOT to do those things, they might do them anyway and you are just SOL more than likely. Lucifer did all of that and more while under an RO, and absolutely NOTHING happened. Do not expect them to be decent or law-abiding even if "they are a professional man" (as my poor deluded attorney kept saying)

They were not decent nor law-abiding in the first place which is why you're ditching their @$$, plus now they are gonna be REALLY p*ssed, 'cos you have not behaved properly the way you were trained plus their nasty behavior stands to be exposed. Watch out is all I can say and if your spouse is a biochemist, I wouldn't open up any unexpected letters or packages and if a big bunch 'o flowers appears on your front porch, put on some rubber gloves, tie a dishrag over your face and throw a heavy-duty garbage bag over it and dispose of properly.

And don't get into a car with them or get close enough to them so they can touch you.

Paranoid? I think so probably, but those suggestions came from my shrink, so you decide. Lucifer was MOST irritated because I sneaked off while he was out of town (that was suggested by my attorney) and he did say later he "should have taken care of me sooner". Yikes!


Yes, it's a nasty, dirty, sordid affair much like his other affairs, no doubt. I still can't believe he's being such a, well...what is the proper term. A turd?? Can you say turd in a barn? I am guessing yes.


I had the pleasure of seeing my cardiologist the other day who is also his cardiologist, and I mentioned that very thing to her..and she looked me straight in the eyes and said. "Maybe he finally realized he lost his good thang" (she has that classic West Texas accent....*I* on the other hand, have that classic Ft. Worth/Dallas accent so people out her always ask me where I am from: ""Ware r yew frum")

So, that tickled me a little and I *know* I am not supposed to give a crap what they think, but still and all, it was heartwarming to hear her interpretation of his visit to her a couple of months ago. I bet a million dollars she had to bring up the situation with him. Oh, to have been a fly on the wall.

CZ, you need a new smiley. Gmail has one that is either flies swarming around a pile of chit or else bees swarming around a bee hive. I really can't tell for sure.

My, how I do go on when I am especially bored with this silly homework. Sometimes its fascinating but mostly, it's a huge yawn.

Legs

[Legs]

and look, Mommy! I did the quote-y thing PERFECT!!!!

Legs, still begging for acceptance and praise..is that because I never got any at home and then when Lucifer heaped alla dat fake praise on me (in the trapping stage) I fell for it hook line and "stinker"??

When am I going To STOP that???? I can even see now when I am doing it so I guess hat's the first step. I still keep thinking maybe *I* am just as much of an N as he is in my own needy way

[CZBZ]

"I still keep thinking maybe *I* am just as much of an N as he is in my own needy way"

Aw geeze---people are people, Legs. We all like praise. Praise works. It's motivating, validating and basically feels good. We're all needy too, sometimes more than at other times. That's one way to sort through your fair-weather friends because they won't be willing to meet your needs and then you feel like that horsechit emoticon you want on WoN and you start pathologizing yourself because you KNOW you are being needy and demanding and excessively insecure.

Here's the clincher though--YOU are AWARE you are needy and insecure and hungry for validation and your next thought is "I don't want to make such huge demands on my friends!" Which is a foreign thought to a True Narcissist who EXPECTS people to meet their needs since they are so special and all. They feel entitled to be catered to ALL THE TIME.

So sometimes we are needier than others and that's not a mental illness...it's just the way people are no matter how stoic they may have been before the crisis/trauma/etc. The people who are really turdish (a perfectly acceptable word in a barnyard, LOL!!!) are the ones who act as though they don't need nobody. I am much more cautious around self-sufficient type folks than those who  flow with life's uncertainties.

Everybody is needy at a time like this...


Hugs,
CZ

[betterdays]

Legs, you are accepted and appreciated. My necessary paranoia is intact. I felt I was crazy for years because I was afraid of driving with N, but he is dangerous, no doubt about it, and not just in the car.   Years ago we knew an older couple who seemed to dote on N, and N thought they would make him an heir. He encouraged this couple to make their child homeless when he was fresh out of rehab and trying to get a job.

When I do file, he won't have a chance to empty the bank accounts.  I will remove money from the accounts myself.  It will likely be the last cash I see until the Underworld attains a temperature of zero degrees Celsius.

I am xeroxing bank statements and trying to get up the nerve to go in his office and look around, but do not want to break the law.  I have a key, and have been there less often than other spouses of co workers.  I am not a good liar or sneak.

CZ, I would not feel guilty taking N's last dime and removing his dirty privates from his body with a rusty nail, after what he has done to me, D, and the rest of my family. I will read Ann Bradley's site, and thank you for the millionth time.

[Legs]

When I do file, he won't have a chance to empty the bank accounts.

...and do THAT before you talk to an attorney because I was all set to do that and mine said don't, because the court would frown on that. She's the same fool who said that Lucifer would be perfect for a collaborative divorce because he was a rational, "professional" man and he would certainly follow the law. hahahahahah! I wish I had taped every mistaken word out of her mouth.

Everything she said would happen didn't, and everything she said wouldn't happen, did. I can say the exact same thing about the "professional" mediator we used.....he was also 100% completely wrong about what Lucifer would do and what I am trying to say here is, you know that Nasty N better than ANYONE ever could, so TRUST YOUR GUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


(wondering if all my words will be red now or if any of them will be?)

Legs

[CZBZ]

A few quotes clipped from old threads that might be useful:

"If you want to find hidden assets/money, your attorney needs to find you a forensic accountant.  If you wish to pursue this, find out how much this will cost."



"If I had the whole thing to do over again, I would have:
 
1.  Searched harder and found the right, personality disorder-aware/criminal-type lawyer the first time instead of paying three different ones, and
2.  Hired a PI.  Immediately.  And authorized him/her to use whatever means necessary to gather hard evidence -- docs, videos, photos, the works."



"PLEASE DO NOT SETTLE QUICKLY because you think XNH is going to lower his income. It doesn't work like that. I am in CA also, and my lawyer explained to me that the Judge will assess to XNH what he is CAPABLE of making, so, in other words, if he has been making the same amount of money for quite a while, then suddenly it drops, the judge is smart enough to know that Ex is playing games."



"Think of every single possible detail and make them part of your final agreement.  Don't assume that certain things will happen, or N will take care of it, or it will be resolved in the future.  It is much harder to undo something after you have signed on the dotted line.  For example, in my state, child support continues up to age 21 as long as the child is a full time student.  My daughter will turn 22 before she finishes school.  N has agreed that he will continue child support until graduation.  Regarding your children, consider camp expenses, application fees, future medical expenses including orthodenture work, overnight school trips, think of everything.  If your H has a pension, a 401K, that has to be worked out.  Find out about QDROs. "



"Take a photo/video inventory of everything in your house/at all your properties with a time and date stamp, then store it off your property.  Do this right away. Are you prepared to forego marital support?  To cut the financial cord?  I was advised to bifurcate the marriage by a local police detective.  The court special master who handled our financial settlement told me XNH was the biggest con man and huckster he'd seen in 25 years and said I should expect to never see a penny from XNH.  (A month after that meeting, when I went to withdraw my 50% from our investment account to put down on a home, the bank folks told me XNH had emptied the account, it had no paperwork or flags on it, and our investment advisor no longer worked there.  I got the $ back by threatening XNH that I would go to the DA.)"

[betterdays]

No collaboration, Legs, I get that loud and clear. No mediator, period.  I also do not trust anyone's predictions concerning N.

CZ, I will look for a forensic accountant Monday.  I did not know they existed.

My lawyer has mentioned negotiating college support for D, and I have receipts and most things video'd. All the rest is new info for me. 

I am showing that I can work and wish to be financially stable, and have no strikes against me in terms of past behavior or outbursts.  Every night I try to think of ways to deal with all of this that I have not seen.   It is like getting kicked in the stomach to see the bank statements and to know the battle has not even started, but I have a year to gain ground.