Closure. . . redefine it to find it!

[LettingGo]

Leggs brings up another great point and this one has to do about Closure,

I would love to hear that from Lucifer..that he knew he was wrong and was remorseful, but I am never going to get that and I know it now.

Still, it would be wonderful to get an acknowledgment and apology from him as false as it would be. Why do I even care? I don't and if he did call me, it would just be creepy and weird and I wouldn't believe a word of it.~Leggs

which got me thinking,  
Maybe we need to redefine what Closure means to our Self rather than to let others define it for us and then get stuck w/not being able to fulfill the defined requirements.

What does Closure mean to you?
What do you need to find Closure?

How do you define it for your Self?

[/b]

As children our families & society teach us their concepts & definitions of Love,
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7242.0.html

Acceptance & Forgiveness,
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7271.0.html

and Closure as well as other important aspects of life and this has a tremendous impact on how one views Self in this world. Perhaps Finding Self is about taking a critical look at how we define these aspects of life for Self.

  Thanks to my WoNderful Friends @ WoN I have recently been enlightened on why I was having difficulty finding Closure w/the Momster and the NFOO.  

For me, Closure, the destination of going through all the Stages of the Recovery Process follows the last two Stages of Acceptance & Forgiveness and was contingent upon the Momster having Remorse which would give me Validation that what I experienced and endured, and survived was abuse and it was wrong. It is about calling a Wrong a Wrong. And I so despirately wanted the Momster to do that because she was the one who was doing all the wrong, evil things. I was relying on the Momster to bring Closure, which was not going to happen, and would leave my Self feeling incomplete -- unless I redefined Closure for my Self. As long Closure depended on someone else giving me what I needed I would never have it. Let's face it, the one thing toxic pathological people do well is figure what you want or need from them and then don't give it to you. Never expect others to do for you what you can do for yourself. You will never find personal power if you depend on others to make you strong. Thanks to Susy's thread about NC being the Closure & the Validation to & for Self. Validation, Acceptance, Forgiveness, and Closure are interactive. The constant theme to all of this is that we can not rely or depend on others to define aspects of our life and most importantly, others can not define our life, they can not define Self. Because if we give our power away to allow someone else to define our life or even aspects of our life, then we are allowing someone else to control our life. We become a mere spectator to our own life.

We must learn that we are the main character in our own life and we can not let anyone else write our script. If we have been given a toxic script because we were born into the KoN, then we need to find Authentic Help from Wise Consultants to rewrite our own Script. We must objectively critique our scripts and delete things that are not true to our Character and are deadly to Self. If Concepts like Marriage, Family, Relationships, Friendship, Love, Career, Religion, etc. play a huge role in our Life Script, then we have to see how each of these interact w/Self. We can not rely on someone else's interpretation of these important Charactesr in our Life, we need to carefully examine them for our Self. In The End the only one responsible for the way this all Played out is the Main Character, Self.

The following is from Susy, aka WoNder/ful Woman
That is all part of the devastating discard.  The message is:  you are not worth giving closure to.  As far as I know, no one gets closure from a N relationship.  Closure is for 'normal' relationships when both parties have hearts and empathy.

I love this quote:
"We want closure which is never going to come in a way that we want but we can find closure by No Contact. We want to be heard, want them to know the pain they've caused but they are never going to listen and if they do, they don't hear the words. What we often miss is the beauty of "No Contact." You are finally saying No More. It is your voice without the words but they hear it loud and clear as if you screamed from the top of your lungs - "Go to the Devil." No Contact is your pure and sweet rejection. It is empowering. It is your last word. It is your closure. It is one of the most hurtful narcissistic injuries you could inflict. They have finally come to understand you know just who and what they are. They know the tricks do not work anymore. They know you are no longer prey or a pawn in their game. It is your last word."

"No contact is so essential. Your pride and dignity are riding on it."

From this article:
http://www.thenarcissistandpsychopath.yolasite.com/no-contact.php

[SusyP14]

LG,

You must be a mind reader because I was just in the process of writing my own personal mission statement on NC.  I haven't finished yet, but here is some of what I am working on:

Although No Contact can seem very difficult at the beginning, it is NOT a punishment.  It is the only way to heal.  It is only by putting distance between yourself and a disordered abuser that you can begin to see the truth.  And the truth shall set you free.

No contact is a fence built around your heart for your very own protection. 

[LettingGo]

Mind reader, no -- great minds just think a like! Oh funny story, I was once approached by a famous "mind reading company" rep. to "join their team to help people".  -- The truth is many children who had extremely abusive parents become natural profilers because their survival depends upon it. You get very good at reading behavioral patterns, non-verbals, tones in the voice and fluctuations in a person's speech. Some of these children go into law enforcement, or special forces to catch the criminals that remind them of the ones they grew up with all their lives, perhaps it is their way of finding Closure.

WoNder Woman, a personal mission statement of NC is a great idea! I really like what you have so far and look forward to what else you are going to add.

I like how you said that NC is not a punishment. The Momster claims that is what I am doing to her. I told my Sibs that it is not about punishing the Momster, but protecting me from the Momster. It is the only way to begin to heal, but before you can even start to heal you have to disconnect from the N and put distance between you so that the confusing game of Smoke & Mirrors ends, the N-fog lifts and you can achieve clarity and a new prospective.

NC begins with protecting yourself and is maintained through valuing yourself.

[eyes_up]

Legs desire above does not equal closure. What it is asking for is , hmmm how to write it, Like Legs is asking for the narcissist ot wake up and become conscious of his acts. A narc waking up does not create closure... it just means the narcissist is waking up or that finally a person gets what they wanted all along, a healthy person who is aware of the other person, as a fellow human being.

 It is understandable to want another person to be alive and responsive to the other persons existence. That may happen with some people and then with other NOT. so the point is, to expect others finalize the deal by embracing my existence, by honoring it and responding to it, well, I can not count on it.

What I can count on is myself and my awareness to my existence and embrace that as an self to self relationship.

MY SELF, ME, individual etc ... will never be felt or acknowledged by a narcissist. That is what is happening with in the whole relationship. Meaning, what I am asking of the narcissist for closure at the end of the relationship is the same thing I am asking at the end. This contention is the basis of the relationship...  Mr narc will you finally acknowledge my existence as well as  your behaviors Kind of a joke at this point ... and the joke is on ME!

 Closure happens when I acknowledge myself, come into full contact with my existence and look to my self for that great embrace. Even if a wonderful person who is caring and loving acknowledges my existence it can not be the same as me doing it for myself first. that is the closure that is looking ot happen but I continue to play it out like it is the job of the other person and the other person validation will finally complete me as a whole. The deal will be finalized. WEll, guess what? It will not. the same pending and nagging sensation will continue.

It has been a huge mistake to raise female children with the notion that our meaning comes through an other person. It does not. Another persons actions validation and responsible gestures will never do what my own responsibility to individuation will do. it doesn't even come close to touching it.


When I connected this way, figuring it out and realizing that my heritage created this huge gap for me in terms of becoming an individual ...The value of my existence  in not contingent on another persons behavior. I have to connect with that... I finally did and it is the only reason I can write a response such as this.

eyes

[Legs]

Yes, I know I'm not gonna get it from him, but I do think that I need recognition and acceptance from other people and that's ok, isn't it? (she asks, being unable to supply that for herself)

I think we all need recognition and appreciation from other people and not just the cats. Ok, the cats will never give me that either and I know it. A dog. yes, you can get it from a dog for sure.

I am a Southern people Pleasin' Kind of Woman (but I bet you could tell that already) and I do think it's almost criminal the way I was taught to base my entire self-worth on what I could do for others and was never even expected to do anything for myself. My very future existence hinged on some man... and now I am paying the price, but better late than never.

I am a little pissed that I missed so much in life because I never even thought for one second that I could actually DO anything and it turns out, that I am pretty good at all kinds of stuff.

Oh, sigh. I know I am glad to have finally woken up to smell the coffee, and I know that the best revenge is to live well, but I sure did like being half asleep in my fairytale existence and believing that some man was thinking he was lucky to have me. And I thought I was lucky to have a man that thought he was lucky to have me.

I wonder how much of my thing was settling for someone because I thought I'd never have better. And now I'm so old and embittered that I don't want anyone ever again, good or bad. I will henceforth throw the baby out with the bathwater before the water even gets hot.

And for those of you in the know, where is CZ? Is she ok? I haven't seen her post lately and I am hoping she is in some exotic locale and enjoying the view in a small town in France and not out with a nasty summer cold.

Th only closure I am looking for right now is getting what I want and having the divorce be final. I already know I will not get what I want and that there is no "fair"....so I will, once again, settle for what I can get. But one thing I will not have to do is ever give a flying you-know-what about what does Lucifer want/need/expect. I am in a weird place right now, neither fish nor fowl, nor knowing my future place in life or if I shall even have a place in life, so I am just doing what I can to do what I can do.

It all sucks, but at least I know I can hang a picture by myself and take my car in and get the oil changed. My house is clean and I have learned a lot of skills and just wish I could figure out a menu plan. I keep eating tomato soup and tuna fish and lots of spinach. Tonight I broke down and made salmon patties, which is not exotic, but the cats liked it a lot.


Legs, not feeling so grim because I am too busy trying to figure out my Word homework and what my attorney really needs since he keeps changing his mind and forgetting a lot of stuff..he is starting to scare me

[eyes_up]

"I think we all need recognition and appreciation from other people" ~ Legs

Ones need for an audience lowers when a person can recognize and  appreciate themselves first with out the attention, opinions of others. This is growing up from pleasing parents and people so that they will recognize us and appreciate us. Those two go hand in hand. It may sound like I am speaking another language because I am not southern and pleasing others or entertaining others is a job that may or not be include payment of recognition. I can not imagine an entire life built on pleasing others as my main source , secondary source nor necessary source for meaning and value. this is my point. It reduces ones potential in terms of value which is ... my meaning and value is about pleasing others.   

Instead of revenge just stop tending to others feelings and opinions about you. Instead of revenge learn and grow. Grow out of the need for revenge and to please others. It is OK to experience feelings of revenge only keeps one tied to the other person.

[Legs]

Yes, it kinda sucks to be me, but sixty years is a long time to have such things ingrained, and I am not going to change overnight, much as I'd like to. I am proud of myself for leaving the ass, and will happily engage in revenge fantasies and other angry thoughts until  the divorce is final and I have the money in my pocket.

I need a strong emotion to carry me through this hideousness, and I haven't really got time to work on myself at the moment, but when I'm finished here and can leave this chit hole of a town, I just want to curl up and read for a while and look out the window. Any self-improving that happens will happen, but I really think mostly I just want to be left alone for a while to reflect and build myself an Early War-N-ing system so I can avoid anymore of their nonsense.

Legs, probably to old to change all that much and maybe too tired

[Jacintae]

Legs, probably to old to change all that much and maybe too tired

Legs, for me I don't think I have much choice about changing. And I don't think it's even because of the N.

One of the reasons I got to like Carl Jung is his idea that everyone MUST take a different perspective on life once we hit middle age - because in ways the world and existance changes for us then. Beautiful women lose their looks, stong men lose their stamina - in one way or another everyone loses power.

When we are younger we ascend - gather things, are ambitious, want to 'rise higher'. To me it was almost necessary to be 'ego driven' and 'externally aware' to make a so called success of my life. Yes, I need to please others - bosses, examiners, teachers, clients, colleagues etc. etc. But that was just a 'role' for when I was younger. Now I am at midlife and I am beginning to realise that it is now time for 'me'. I am seeing that I must learn to let go of external things - younger people have 'caught up' with me at work, I am not as able in the gym as I was, I don't have the energy I had to work as hard as I did, I have losing some of my power in the external world.

But I can now make time to look for internal power and it IS there. I think mid-life is a time of passage. And no matter how fed up I feel, or how much I don't want to face it - I think life is forcing me to change.

Going back to finding closure with the N, for me Susan Anderson's book 'Journey from abandonment to healing' has been a great help. She outlines five stages:

Shattering ( when we realise the awfulness of the reality of what Nism really is,and that we were really only 'objects' to those we loved so dearly)
Withdrawal ( like withdrawal from an addictive substance - the pain of 'cold turkey' - to me that was the time I really KNEW NC was the only way and  dealing with my urges and longing to contact him)
Internalising the hurt ( when we turn on ourselves and think it is all our fault - maybe we should have done things different. I found questions like 'am I a codependant?, Am I an N myself? was i too needly? and all these questions haunted me for a time)
Rage (I definitely had to deal with 'rage turned inwards and depression' and a huge longing for revenge. For me I found a release with this when I realised that yes, it was definitely OK to have these feelings but NOT ok to do anything much about them.)
Lifting (Rage did help me direct some of my energy outwards. And in the aftermath, I have begun to find peace and acceptance. I am also finding that I am getting interested in new things and that life has come to some kind of peaceful existance again.)

I agree completely that the day I finally decided on NC was my day of closure with the N. That decision gave me some power back. It was MY decision alone. He had no say whatsoever in it - it was all down to me. (which is why, if I ever get in contact with him again, I will be giving power back to him).

And as I sit here, I think I am beginning to accept that meeting an N was part of MY fate. I don't have children that I ever had to let go of and face an 'empty nest'. I never had much loss or bereavement in my life. I never faced war in my country. So I had to face something to bring me to change. The N was the agony that I had to face. Because I think at mid-life, EVERYONE has to face loss of 'old power' in some form or other which in turn forces them to turn to a new kind of power - i.e. that within ourselves.

And no matter how tired we are - we are forced in new things. A rite of passage. I used have lingering regret that I never married nor had children. My new realisation that in myself I AM ENOUGH is a pretty good feeling. As well as finding closure on the N, I feel a lot of regrets of my life are slipping away. And when old things slip away - there is space for new things. And I really am going to look for new things - things I never thought would be available to me but with my new found strength I find myself now saying 'Why not?'

Love

Jac xxx

[eyes_up]

Jacintea - I completely agree that the natural progression of human life it to change and to become more emotionally intelligent. I like what you are saying about internal power.


I don't think we ever lose power we just cultivate it differently. External power is always in question. Internal power or personal power is where it is all heading, well that is my experience so far.

Also ... "Shattering" to me means breaking the constraints of ego identification. When the external world no longer produces the information that agree with our idea of power.
When what person builds their life on , what is considered real is all of a sudden unreal and the ego can not make shift. this is a point where an individual either acquires more defenses as an attempt to keep that world together or they let go and find where their real power really exists - discovering that.

Unlike Jung I think of this as an on going process but that by a certain age it either has evolved or it hasn't. If it has not then there is a major break through or a major rejection and defenses build. It would be at that point when a person becomes hardened with bitterness. I have read many times people saying they didn't want to become bitter.

Legs - Your experience of anger is absolutely normal and healthy. You put it rightly so here..."I need a strong emotion to carry me through this hideousness" You are working on your self just by knowing what you are doing with your anger and how it can work for you instead of against you.

Boundaries are an absolute necessity. Boundaries serve as "early warning systems". It would be pretty universal that people who couple with narcissist do not have good boundaries. That might be an opinion of mine but based on self observation and observation of others it mostly looks more like a fact at this point. Boundaries are the opposite of being a pleaser. Meaning, I have lines that differentiate me from the other person. If pleasing others means that I step over those lines then it is a breach of boundaries. If I don't even know those lines or they have not been established then I am blind to what is inappropriate for my health and well being and simply go with what pleases others.

I will tell you something about my experience with boundaries and the narcissist. It has every thing to do with pleasing others. I was not with out boundaries during the relationship. Of course in many areas I had none at all and in others I breached my own personal contract to please but still I had some lines that would not comply with the needs and desires of the narcissist.

On boundary came up around sex. I would not comply with certain demands. It just was not an option. The narcissist labeled me, put me down or interrogated, had fits etc and that is what happens with boundaries and a narc. If I were to back down to PLEASE the narcissist then I would have certainly breached my own personal contract (breach my personal power which in facts can and does create external power). If pleasing others ends up being a breach of my contract and personal power then I am in trouble.

You say  you want early warning systems ... well this is early warning systems. The change that will have to happen to acquire a sharp warning system will be the development and exercise boundaries. This is not about mid life but rather about simply being alive and healthy. It actually doesn't have to be difficult to do this. I had a therapist help me with boundaries Which includes the right to Say NO regardless of the comfort and pleasure of the other person.

It is understandable that you are tired today and the prospect of change sounds like a lot of work but you will have your quite time to think and rejuvenate. Another thing is that it is much more work not to have boundaries intact then to create boundaries. Boundaries save enormous amounts of energy. Life is easier with a narcissist sucking the life out 24/7.

Boundaries are not wall against other people to shut them out although the word often has been interpreted like that. They are not ego defenses either. Boundaries are simply a form of self care and self respect as well as knowing what is healthy for yourself as an individual. We walk the world encountering all kinds of personalities and egos strengths.
Boundaries are being prepared and regardless of age... they are necessary.

It looks like you are establishing boundaries just by stating that you need this time to process in solitude.

There will come a time when you knowing what "Lucifer " has done as being unhealthy and you will not need his voice to realize this. His acknowledgment will make no difference. Personally, Narcs do not every realize their behavior. They do NOT admit to thier abusive energies. I am the one that needs to know that and act on my own behalf. 

(((hugs)))

eyes







 

[Litha]

Closure happens when I acknowledge myself, come into full contact with my existence and look to my self for that great embrace.

Beautifully put eyes up! It is waking up to that power within and exercising it that breaks the cycle.

Another piece of closure for me was being able to accept that the man and the relationship were both illusions. I did not have a relationship with a lover, I was manipulated and abused by a narcissist. That is the reality and who needs closure from that?

 
Litha

[eyes_up]

"I did not have a relationship with a lover, I was manipulated and abused by a narcissist. That is the reality and who needs closure from that?" ~ Litha

Absolutely Litha... I agree and that is how it happened for me. But, when a person still seeks the wholeness of a relationship with a half a self (self structure incomplete) no matter who one engages with narc or not... the closure one needs is the completion of self. It is self sabotaging to step to a narcissist and desire closer and it is a continuation of the same cycle playing with the same elements that kept one tied into the narcissist. It is the same carrot but not the carrot drags a person around thinking ... if he can just do this final act all will be solved.

My main point in the above response is that this closure every one seeks is still in the same box in relating to the narcissist as a potential , potential what ever and what is pressing to happen is entirely different. Continuing to orient around the narcissist reality and the desired change... as if his/her word will finally grant me my power... power because my voice has finally been recognized... when it is I that must recognize and hear my voice.

When I finally got my voice and could hear and feel my own experience it was easy to say... You are abusive - I KNOW THAT and I am the important person who needs to know that... I don't need the narcissist to finally come through and know it for me to feel justified in my feelings. I claim my experience and my existence with out any one else present and in agreement. but the thing is there is getting out of the enmeshed experience before this can happen.

At some point, I didn't want to tell the narc a thing. He was off my things to do list. My feelings , thoughts and desires were none of his business. I wasn't doing business with him any more. His thoughts and feelings were not my concern  and my experience was non negotiable... I didn't give a crap if he ever gets it. All I know is I get it and that feels right, complete and there is my closure.

Gees, Can it even be imagined a narcissist apologizing for being abusive and expressing remorse... this is a mental illness. we do not have Web of Narcissism because we are all sitting waiting for  the narcissist to get healthy. WoN is here for every one else to get healthy , get the hell away from abuse, un-enmesh and return home from the hell ride.

There is no apology for that hell ride. that time is done and it happened and it has its out come. There is no apology ... only change. No apology, as far as I am concerned, will ever be good enough. Would it be better if Hitler apologized for murdering thousands of humans? Is there an acceptable apology?

eyes_up


 





 

[Legs]

<<There is no apology for that hell ride. that time is done and it happened and it has its out come. There is no apology ... only change. No apology, as far as I am concerned, will ever be good enough. Would it be better if Hitler apologized for murdering thousands of humans? Is there an acceptable apology?>>

Perfect. There is no apologizing for that Hell Ride. I guess I needed to go on it so I'd know how much I truly hated it, couldn't control it and had to get off. I won't be getting a refund for that trip. And I won't be riding that thing ever again. If I never even go to the fair again, it will be ok but I never did like scary rides and I won't risk another. (even though that ride was presented to me as being a perfectly nice ride..the nicest ride I'd ever seen) I found out it was the very worst ride of all....that scary roller coaster that happens inside a dark building so you don't even know what is coming next. At least most roller coasters are outside in the light so you can see what's ahead

Really, I should never have gotten on it. I was grieving the loss of my first husband and should never have even GONE to the damn fair, certainly not that soon anyway. I should have made them let me go into the building and turn on the lights so I could see what I would be doing.

I am very interested in the boundary issues. I know everyone's are different and we have to work them out for ourselves, but I know that I still do that thing where I bend over backwards for total strangers and I know I'm doing it because I think they will like me if I do, or they will see me as being generous or helpful or something....how do I quit that?

How do I draw the line between something that will help me and help them without becoming totally self-focused or without lying down on the railroad tracks for someone else?

Legs, maybe not asking the question very well

[CZBZ]

"where is CZ? Is she ok? I haven't seen her post lately and I am hoping she is in some exotic locale and enjoying the view in a small town in France and not out with a nasty summer cold." ~Legs

Hi Legs, Helping hands, and Tender heart! I'm saying "HI!" to all of you and especially your heart for noticing my absence.   Isn't it validating when people notice we aren't there? I used to laugh about dying my hair many years ago and my spouse not even noticing he was sleeping with a blonde. (The blonde thing was one of my stupider decisions but since i wasn't having a whole lot of fun, resorting to desperate measures was worth a try.   )

Did I have more fun? Not really. Did I get more attention? Definitely. Did I like myself better as a blonde? No. I coulda died my hair all the colors of a rainbow and still been miserable because lemme tell ya something: when you spike your hair, stick rings in your nose, wear flashy clothes and your husband still doesn't notice you exist, THAT makes you feel even worse.  I"m sticking with mousy brown. Well, that's not entirely true. I am thinking about getting a Carole King look: curly curls in shades of grey and white and if that still doesn't make me feel 'at home with my hair', I'll try a Sinead O'Connor. Shaving my scalp bald might give me closure on a head of hair that has been the bane of my existence since 1960 when the ironing board and Rowenta iron smashed it to board-stiff perfection.

Maybe therapy would help? "Hi, my name is CZ and I have a dysfunctional relationship with my hair."

Last week, I flew to Chicago and if you think hair like mine looks bad in 20% humidity, good lard you should see it in 80% humidity. i complained more about my hair than the Chicago weather which tells me I have personal work to do about 'accepting the whole of myself exactly as I am, bushy locks and all.' It is truly funny to me how we carry grievances into maturity and even after nearly sixty years fighting my hair, I still have a dysfunctional relationship to work through. I hope, I really hope that by the time I"m laid to rest in my casket and all my friends and family visit to pay their last respects, that they all say, "Did you see her hair? It's so beautiful.She really did the best she could with what God gave her." (Little will they know I purchased my gravesite in arid southern Idaho where a farmer donated a square of his sugar beet fields to the city. Some people are laid to rest underneath shady oaks but for a true Idahoan, we'll be laid to rest surrounded by row crops.)

By the way, last week I met several online friends I've known for eight years without ever meeting in person. They all had great hair even in Chicago and everyone was so kind about my frizzy locks because they saw "ME" and hair doesn't matter when you connect heart-to-heart. Nothing, absolutely nothing, heals the wounded soul like being friends with people who are not narcissists.

"I do think that I need recognition and acceptance from other people and that's ok, isn't it? (she asks, being unable to supply that for herself) I think we all need recognition and appreciation from other people and not just the cats. Ok, the cats will never give me that either and I know it. A dog. yes, you can get it from a dog for sure." ~Legs

LOL!!! Dogs don't care about your hair, that's true. I can't really say that about my cat though. He tries to 'lick' my hair into a spittle-do whenever he can. So far, even cat spit is ineffective. He hasn't given up though...he keeps trying to groom me which ends up giving him the most unusual highlighted hairballs you ever saw.

In my opinion, closure on the narcissistic relationship takes a lifetime. That's just a fact because you can intellectualize until the cows come home but 'saying hello' to unconcious feelings will be wedged between safe experiences, at a reasonable pace we can tolerate without blocking, denying, ignoring, repressing our natural reactions to objectification and abuse. This is how I view closure. You can start with No Contact but staying In Contact with yourself is lifelong. The most healing thing for me is meeting, getting to know, and loving people who are NOT narcissists. They see YOU all the way to your insides, without getting stuck on the appropriateness of your hair.

As I've mentioned on other threads (based on friendships with other people who've been invalidated by narcissists), External Validation is foundational to knowing the self and sorting through the narcissistic debris. You're just not sure who you are when the narcissist has had enough time to alienate you from your true self. The narcissist plants little noxious seeds inside yourself and you aren't really sure if what he or she said is true. Generally, there's a little bit of truth in their perceptions but this has to be countered by the big bit of truth in non-narcissist's perceptions. We get way out of whack with reality ourselves when the most intimate person in our lives (who should love us and have our best interests at heart) is telling us things that are not true. We begin rebuilding our lives with people who are NOT narcissists and realize that 'hair' is neither here nor there...it's certainly not a reason to throw a perfectly good Idahoan away.

Validation from other people is the FOUNDATION to knowing what's true and real and solid about yourself. People who have been in narcissistic relationships whether chosen or unchosen (like parents) ARe very needy in the beginning. I don't see that as a flaw in myself or in others. It's indicative of the narcissistic relationship that is destructive to our self-awareness. It will take Time, Effort and Attention to slowly eliminate the shame and the lies we have believed about ourselves. I cannot over stress the importance of non-narcissistic relationships in your life. When people validate your worth in a naturally reciprocal process, you become a little closer to closure. The narcissistic relationship is so destructive, so fracturing, so confusing, so anti-life that you cannot heal in five minutes flat. You cannot 'think' your way out or read enough books to give you closure on 'what the hell just happened to my self-worth'. You have to 'feel' your way out of the dark.

When setting up WoN in 2005, one of the first steps I thought was essential to self-reclamation was VALIDATION. Sure, it's a big idea to say we must self-validate but ya know, that's much much easier to do once other people validate your goodness, your kindness, your true self. Think of it this way: Most people aren't really sure WHO they are once the N-relationship becomes so painful we are forced to Wake UP (even for a few minutes   ).

By this time, you believe you are inept, selfish, arrogant, manipulative, critical, blaming, etc. etc. etc. Did you notice these are identifiers for the 'narcissistic personality'? Narcissists split off and project their 'truth' onto others. We pick it up without realizing it's not our stuff to claim.

You might be waking up but inside yourself, you really aren't quite sure that you aren't selfish, manipulative, critical, etc. etc. etc. And then you get to know people who are not narcissists (and they are generally people-pleasers, too...but people-pleasers with healthy boundaries). And they write or say to you, "You are the most generous person in the world" and this thought bounces around inside yourself with all the lies the narcissist said about your selfishness.

The next non-narcissist in your circle of new friends says the same thing, "You are the most generous person in the world" (let's not get hung up on superlatives here) and now you have TWO points of validation to counteract the lie that you are selfish. As you develop friendships with other generous people, you also open yourself to even greater generosity because you realize (conscious or not), that they will not take advantage of your desire to please. This again, is the VALIDATION we need, facilitating a healthy healing process within yourself.

The first step towards validation of course, is opening yourself to new relationships and risking potential rejection. So the second step I thought of that was essential to healing was INFORMATION. Once you can spot red flags and understand how the narcissistic personality behaves, you can END relationships that might be reinforcing the lies you were told  about yourself. The last step in this triangle is integration. Integrating all aspects of yourself, even the times when you (and everyone else on the planet) behave selfishly.

External validation was critical for me, especially after years of being told i was someone i was not.

The only way I know for people to self-validate when they have been subjected to lies about their true character, is creating and maintaining safe relationships with people who are not narcissists. This takes time. It takes trust. It takes white-knuckled faith that you are good enough, smart enough and gosh darn it, people like you. From there, you have the rest of your life to gently come to know the Real You, the one who was almost destroyed in an invalidating and pathological relationship.

As far as No Contact goes, it's a healthy way to block yourself from ingesting MORE lies about your character...but going along with No Contact, is opening yourself to new relationships that are not narcissistic. Like good friends who validate your importance in their lives.   Funny how it works but the more good friends you have who see "YOU" and not your hair, the more naturally you validate your own self-worth. Which is also very interesting to me because the more you validate your own self-worth, the more you value and validate others.


Hugs,
CZ

[Orange Poppy]

My main point in the above response is that this closure every one seeks is still in the same box in relating to the narcissist as a potential , potential what ever and what is pressing to happen is entirely different. Continuing to orient around the narcissist reality and the desired change... as if his/her word will finally grant me my power... power because my voice has finally been recognized... when it is I that must recognize and hear my voice.

Wow is all I can say to this, Eyes...wow, and thank you with baskets of wildflower blessings!
Because what you articulated here is exactly one of the main struggles I am having, and did have, long before this current N-dance - the struggle of orientating around the narcissist reality and believing it - and ONLY IT - has the power to recognize and therefore legitimize my voice.
Taking back that power for myself and by myself really is the issue at hand here.
Believing it, however, is one thing.
Finding the means and having the courage to see it through is another thing altogether.
But this forum has been such a huge step for me in moving me towards that, and I again just want everyone on here to know, to really know, how very WoNderful you really are...a multi-colored field of wildflowers blowing in the summer wind, sustaining all manner of storms, only to survive and thrive and continue to reach for the warmth and the light of the sun...
Orange Poppy

[Legs]

Thanks, CZ for that nice long VALIDATING post and glad you had fun in the Windy Humid City. I love Chicago...there is an energy there that feeds me. The only thing I *don't* like about it is that I've never seen so many short people in my LIFE! Honestly, I feel like a freak when I'm there. I am already freakishly tall in Texas, where they grow 'em big to begin with (I think because so many Germans and Scots came here at the beginning..that's my family heritage anyway. Viking blood on the Scots side) but in Chicago, I feel like a parade float.


I am good with the no contact idea...the only contact I'll hopefully ever have again is in court. So I don't know how I brought that up, if indeed I did. I think I may have said something about closure and knowing I'd never get it from that quarter.

And then, as always, that led to another question which is why I like this place...you can say anything and generally people are nice no matter where you are in the journey.

I think everyone needs to be able to love and to be loved and to be valued for their worth, and whether worth is self-worth, or how you contribute to society, I can't say. It's all tangled up and impossible to separate.

I do know that no amount of validation will ever be enough for the N and that they can neither love nor be loved (or not so's they notice it or believe it) so they are already living on the other side of the fence. They can't ever play with us and both of us have a good time. And CZ, I do think part of my hesitation is because of revolving in the N's orbit for 32 years and no longer having much of a sense who *I* am since I let him change me so very much.

I think I was a full and happy (though saddened at that moment because of the death of my husband) person, and he somehow thought I could make him that way, but since I couldn't, then he didn't mind bringing me down to his level, and it doesn't even matter anymore..what happened or why or how. It happened and now I am sweeping up the shattered bits. There's no putting that thing back together because it was a hideous thing anyway and I'm glad it was broken.

That's where I am now. Still cleaning up the mess. Don't want another potential mess and it will be really hard and maybe impossible to have anyone else close again. I think I am probably going to be one of those suspicious and un-trusting people from now on and I'm not saying that just because I am suspicious and un-trusting right now... I think I have changed and now my joy is gone and I don't want it back because if it came again and I lost it again, I couldn't do that again.

Maybe I just need time, but I think I am fundamentally changed and really, it had to happen sooner or later probably. I was a foolish, trusting woman but those days are over. I just want a tiny little life now that is peaceful and I don't want to have to self-examine forever. I think I know how and why this all happened, and I think the only way to protect myself again, is not to connect too much. Or connect on the outside but not on the inside is maybe a better way to say it.

Maybe after the divorce, I will have a reawakening and realize this was just part of the process, but that's going to have to happen in its own time and I can't choose that right now.


Legs

[CZBZ]

"I am very interested in the boundary issues. I know everyone's are different and we have to work them out for ourselves, but I know that I still do that thing where I bend over backwards for total strangers and I know I'm doing it because I think they will like me if I do, or they will see me as being generous or helpful or something....how do I quit that? " ~Legs


Don't quit being a people-pleaser, please. Everybody wants to be liked and what a hellishly sterile and nasty world we would live in without generous, helpful people-pleasers. I am a people-pleaser and don't intend on changing anytime soon. What i have done however, is GIVEN UP on pleasing narcissists. You can't. For one thing, their expectations are completely out of whack with reality and for another thing, they are not equally devoted to pleasing anyone but themselves. And for another thing: the more generous, kind and pleasing you are, the more narcissists HATE you. Never forget that.

The key thing for people pleasers who love a people-pleasing world is knowing who to embrace and who to avoid/reject from  that loverly world.

I have noticed something about being a people-pleaser is that you can never give too much or drain yourself IF you are relating to non-narcissists. That is because they desire pleasing you, too. You put ointment on their bruises one day and by gosh, they are right there with the band-aids when you skin your knee.

The narcissistic relationship is a One-Way-Relationship which means: anything beautiful about human nature is used against us. If you are a generous soul in a one-way relationship, you might try being more selfish when the real problem to me, is the narcissist who is mercenary, selfish, self-absorbed and unwilling to GIVE. You give and give and get nothing back, eventually believing human beings are selfishly self-centered and you might as well join them.

If you are a people-pleaser and 'giving' to others makes you feel good about yourself and connected to other people, be more discerning about your relationships because NOW you know this about your 'character' and rather than changing your personality, change your friends. (and lovers!)

Hugs,
CZ

(I'm trying to catch up with threads...this is a wonderful conversation. I've loved reading this thread! I might be getting comments mixed up a little, though.)

[CZBZ]

"That's where I am now. Still cleaning up the mess. Don't want another potential mess and it will be really hard and maybe impossible to have anyone else close again. I think I am probably going to be one of those suspicious and un-trusting people from now on and I'm not saying that just because I am suspicious and un-trusting right now... I think I have changed and now my joy is gone and I don't want it back because if it came again and I lost it again, I couldn't do that again.

Maybe I just need time, but I think I am fundamentally changed and really, it had to happen sooner or later probably. I was a foolish, trusting woman but those days are over. I just want a tiny little life now that is peaceful and I don't want to have to self-examine forever. I think I know how and why this all happened, and I think the only way to protect myself again, is not to connect too much. Or connect on the outside but not on the inside is maybe a better way to say it." ~Legs


I hear you and I feel you, too, Legs. I will never be the trusting woman I was and that's okay. There are times when I yearn for that innocence, though. Ignorance can be bliss. My life will NEVER be the same. Never. I am no longer naively trusting though I still give people the benefit of the doubt yet in the back of my mind, I know how deceptive narcissists can be. It's an awareness that hurts on a level I can't even write about.

Closure (getting back to the topic) to me is about 'neutrality'. Feeling at peace with everything that happened.

Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

Last week, I flew to Chicago ~CZ

Darn it CZ, I was JUST about to start a rumour that you took were so inspired after reading Eat, Pray, Love that you flew to Italy and were having a scandalous affair with a way younger and buff EYE-tal-E-an stud muffin.  



My hero Anne LaMott decided that dreds was an alternative to battling curls:



Welcome back!!!

[CZBZ]

I love Anne Lamott (though I'm not enchanted with Elizabeth Gilbert's book...not sure why. It just bugged me. couldn't even finish it, but Anne Lamott's books keep me reading all night long.)

Dreds, eh? I Never Ever thought of doing that to my hair.  She looks great in dreds  and it's probably okay since she lives in Berkeley, California, right?

Susy, let me ask you this: if you knew the forum manager had dreds, would you still love her?


Hugs,
CZ

[SusyP14]

Susy, let me ask you this: if you knew the forum manager had dreds, would you still love her?

CZ, to paraphrase my friend Dr. Sues:

I would love you in a box.
I would love you with a fox.
I would love you in a house.
I would love you with a mouse.
I would love you here or there.
I would love you anywhere.

So yes, dreds, bald, blue dyed mullet, I am still loving you  

Because I love you for your heart and not your hair  

[CZBZ]

Then it's official, Susy. You are not a narcissist! AND, I love this board. Each day makes me feel better and better about myself and I surely hope the same is true for each of you.

Let me say one more thing:

I have met many people from WoN and a midlife crisis board where i first started posting in 2002. When living in California, I met a scores of people from the old NPD forum and Crisis forum. A few men were in attendance, but mostly women. Women who were dumped for all sorts of reasons, most of them similar to why I got dumped, too. And I would look at them and listen to them talk and feast on the goodies they brought to my home and I would think to myself, "Why would someone dump YOU? You are beautiful inside and out!"

And then I realized they were no different than myself and this was the best closure I could have ever dreamed of achieving in my entire life.


Hugs,
CZ

[eyes_up]

Legs, It was my experienced that when I had to develop boundaries and a whole bunch of other stuff there was a huge amount of self focus. There was construction going on. As the construction progressed I learned balance between attention to others needs and attention to my own needs. I can differentiate between the two now and know better about how to balance. I also learned what are my personal responsibilities to myself and my health Which means I know what each persons responsibilities... so if some one comes along and tries to talk me into thinking his/her responsibilities are mine... I see clearly what is going on. this right here one of the steps in creating boundaries. Knowing what is my stuff and knowing what is the other persons stuff.

I must say that it was really important that I focus on myself and stop focusing on the needs of others. I still worked which included others needs (but there was an exchanged, i get paid) and have remained an assistant manager on WoN but still I did so much focus on myself it was totally different to self orient... but over haul is what it requires to get the balance right. Some people do not have the space to over haul like I did and do. Some people have children and people who have a hand in on the persons energy. that just means the process goes a little slower.

eyes

[Legs]

<<but over haul is what it requires to get the balance right. Some people do not have the space to over haul like I did and do. >>

a complete over-haul....I like that. Just start everyday with a view of where I want to end up...I can maybe do that after all the legal crap is done. And I really want to leave this town. There is nothing that holds me here and I would like to realize my lifelong dream of living in New Mexico and I guess it's now or never. I think if I start over in a new place, I can overhaul myself more easily than if I sat here where I have been for 45 years. I never liked this place to begin with....I just kept marrying men with tenure.



Legs, wondering if a person can do a complete overhaul on their veru own self? Well, if not them, then who???

[eyes_up]

Legs, I had a support system for over haul. I had a therapist and I had WoN and I had various friends who did not really do anything personally on the level of over haul but...
just connecting with people who were safe and kind. If you have been in relationships that have taken more then they have exchanged I would say get a good therapist if you can. It goes a lot faster then doing it on ones own. That is my opinion. I tried on my own and I simply needed a guide and an assistant to help the ball gain momentum and direction. I know  that what has happened would not have happened as quickly if I was doing it all on my own.

If moving is your desire then do it!

What I did was get rid of house mates and other people in my life that were essentially drains.

eyes

[Legs]

<<Knowing what is my stuff and knowing what is the other persons stuff>>

OK! That is what I need to have on my bracelet. Or maybe I do need a tattoo or several...like on that guy who had L-O-V-E tattooed on one set of knuckles and H-A-T-E on the other set...my bracelets can say "my stuff" and "your stuff" and I can look at them and decide which one is right for which occasion.

I never knew there were assistant managers at WON. I bet there is a whole heap of stuff going on here behind the scenes that most of us have no idea of....let me just say again, how lovely this board is and now I am talking the layout and construction. (there's lots of lovely people too, but someone says that everyday) and **I** want to say again what a treat this place is on my tired-of-looking-at-the-internet eyes. I like the kitties and the whole barn analogy and Charlotte of course. I could read that book again today and just boo-hoo, I know it for sure.

I should start a sad book thread. Sometimes its lovely to read a guaranteed to make you cry-your-eyes-out kind of a book...it redirect those self-pitying afternoons. best one I've read lately is The Story of Edgar Sawtelle. Boo hoo. I'd read it again in a New York minute, but I already read it back to back. If nothing else, it puts the N-experience into a different light. I think it's a hate it or love it kind of book and not much in the way of in-between.

Off topic and don't I know it,
Legs