can a N go in and out of remission??

[changedspirit]

Hi all.  hope this post makes it.  I just can't seem to get my smarts about how to navigate here - but i'll try again.  I've been married to a N (diagnosed by our marriage counseler and a psychiatrist she sent him to for one session after he got busted for acting out and lying) for almost 32 years.  Here's the thing,  we have gone through these long "stretches" where it appears he is balanced-even-productive and focused on team goals, i.e. family, financial security, etc.,   then i begin to see personality changes:  rage, anger, irritability,and it starts to build, and bingo with in six months or a year after the pattern of escalating,  things start to unravel and the downward destruction begins. -   the first seven years of our marriage were really great, companionship, fun, loyalty the whole thing, then the kids came and bam he started secretly embezzeling money from his own company and partner and eventually the S hit the fan......and we became financially in ruins, more than a quarter million in debt plus striping the equity out of the house, plus loosing his business and facing a raging partner who wanted to put him in jail....fast forward we both rolled up our sleeves and worked our butts off, THE N DIAGNOSIS DIDN'T EVEN HIT THE RADAR SCREEN FOR ME - I WAS IN 100% SURVIVAL MODE to scrape out of the financial hole.  TEN YEARS LATER -- light at the end of the tunnel, kids healthy and thriving in college, low debt, I'm thinking - time to exhale and begin to enjoy our pre-senior years, BAM -- i begin to see personality changes again, he's  picking fights, short tempered, aloof, emotionally unavailable, sarcastic, raging, -then obsession with his body and the gym, going out all the time, disappearing for long dog walks, closed door computers,  TURNS OUT - affair with co-worker 25 years his junior, lotsa porn, he starts taking pix of himself, i catch him on craigs list looking at adult sex sights, no intimacy with me - because he keeps telling me "You need to seduce me, adore me, want me, go after me" -- as my jaw drops from confusion and a bit of disgust.  We have been in marriage counseling for more than 4 years.  He takes baby-steps. He tells me he wants to stay married.  He says things are great, we have a little money and debt is low, both our jobs are going well, we are beginning to fix the house up, the kids are healthy daughter college graduate and son one more year, so what if he jerks off by himself a few times a week.  It's my fault because i don't blow him away and knock him off his feet.  He told the shrink he was conducting an "experiment" for six months to see if i would initiate hot sex and dazzle him - otherwise he would do his own thing.....he usually gets up at 5:45 am before work and goes in the basement to exercise.  The other morning I came downstairs to the middle of the basement, and he was masturbating to himself in front of mirrors......when he figured out i KNEW what he was doing he half sheepishly came up the stairs, and I looked at him and said "Lightblub moment, you have a BIG PROBLEM, you are a SEX ADDICT" I'm at my wits end.  He's still in denial about it - but is beginning to admit a few things with him sexually are out of alignment.  I'm beginning to thaw out from 2 plus years ago when the affair was discovered and put to rest, and now that I'm a bit more centered, and integrated I'm starting to see clearly the SEX ADDICT thing.  I'm going to push and push for full disclosure.  My question is  does anyone have advice about the N acting out stuff coming in cycles with long periods of FAIRLY (and i emphasize FAIRLY) normal, non -destructive behavior?  Our shrink once said maybe he had bipolor tendencies which might flair up the N stuff, but we haven't gone there for a long time. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. 

Changed Spirit - P.S.  I'm a newbie in joining -- but have been viewing for a long time.  Thanks for all your help!!!!!  This sight is a GODSEND beautiful cyber-village 

[peartree]

welcome to WoN !
was really heart-rending reading your story about your relationship with your N. he sounds v destabilizing and erratic and abusive. keep reading and posting and we hope we can help. do you know what you want to do ?stay with him ? leave/divorce etc ? i think its entirely possible for Ns to have "normal" periods espec if all going well for them and  getting lots of attention etc. some Ns pretty covert until something not working out well for them etc.
does sound like he has a fixation on sex (whether temporary or permanent)
 is he willing to look at this/work on it ? it sounds v abusive and awful for you to be so sidelined/cheated on and then blamed for his deviances. it sounds like the abusive side to your relationship now outweighing any good sides to it. hope you can do whats best for you
hugs
peartree x x x

[honeybearII]

Changed Spirit, welcome to WoN.  We are a "family" of sorts and many of us were in long-time relationships with an N.  I was married to my exNH for almost 32 years, so I can speak to you a bit about what is going on.

I have posted before about the cyclical nature of my marriage with my ex.  Like you, things would be great for a while and I would have a husband who was funny, warm, good dad when he was around, well-respected in the community.  We would be moving along nicely and then BOOM!!  something would change and the whole nature of the marriage and family would be in chaos again.  I wish I could tell you what would set him off, but it was any number of things - new woman "friend", boredom with his business, boredom in a new job or new job weighing him down, fear of aging, death or illness of a family member - there were so many cycles that I cannot even remember all of them.

There is no "remission" for narcississm.  What I called the Good Times, the times of seeming balance, were when he had the False Self mask firmly in place and he was able to control all the variables.  Under the mask, THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE.  If you believe that he can change, you are deluding yourself.  Currently there is a post here called How Did it End for You?  Find my entry there and you will see that as he aged, the behavior became more and more overt and it was like he simply did not CARE if people saw behind the mask of his public image.  It took me a loooong time to realize that the Good Times WERE the mask, and the REAL man was the one leading the private, double life. 

Also, marriage counseling seldom works when you are trying to work things out with an N.  In a normal relationship, both partners understand that they have contributed to the issues, but when you are married to an N, they don't really take responsibility for ANYTHING.  They dump all their stuff onto the partner and over time we begin to believe WE are the ones with the problems.  It is insidious and it lasts for years.  They are also masterful liars and manipulators.  That is why marriage counseling simply is a total waste of time and money.  If you want to spend money on counseling, go for yourself (most of us did), but don't bother any longer with doing it together. 

I feel for you, but this is NOT going to change for the better.  It just doesn't.  I realize in retrospect I should have left my ex YEARS before I did when I still had the energy and fight in me to raise my children by myself and create a better life.  Instead, I stuck it out believing that by some miracle he would CONSISTENTLY turn into the man that I loved when we were in the Good Times.  But it never happened.

It has been almost 7 years since I walked out on him and life is good.  I eventually remarried and have a good marriage to a man who is trustworthy, and who actually cherishes me and our life together.  I never, ever felt loved or cherished by my exNH.  It was a chaotic, depressing and spirit-sucking relationship with moments of fun and happiness, but eventually the bad so far outweighed the good, and I felt so beaten down by his actions I had to walk away.

Again, welcome!
Honey

[SusyP14]

Hi and welcome to Won 

There are several people with experience in very long term relationships so I will let them address that but I wanted to pass along this article that Honey wrote which remains one of my favorites:

Avoiding the Big Picture

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,6435.0.html

[eyes_up]

Welcome to WoN, Changed Spirit,

Take a look at it like this... if 20 or 30 years were a week ... how many days of the week was the narc abusive? He is abusive, there is not a question but a reality.

Would you be OK if he was abusive for 5 days a week or would you be able to settle for 1.5 days of abuse?  Point is no matter how much or how little any abuse at all is damaging and unhealthy.

It is time to look at what you consider acceptable and learn what is not acceptable. That is a boundary that has to be established for your health first and not the health of the family. If you are unhealthy due to any amount of abuse, the family is automatically unhealthy.

find a councilor or therapist for your self and begin your work towards health.


TAKE CARE OF YOU,

eyes_up

[CZBZ]

Welcome, changedspirit and bravo for trying more than one time to use our forum! Maybe it's a little daunting but you are worth whatever time it takes to learn how to navigate WoN.  


"My question is: does anyone have advice about the N acting out stuff coming in cycles with long periods of FAIRLY (and i emphasize FAIRLY) normal, non -destructive behavior? Our shrink once said maybe he had bipolor tendencies which might flair up the N stuff, but we haven't gone there for a long time. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated." ~changedspirit

There are current studies on NPD which suggest narcissist can be ameliorated with Corrective Life Experiences. I've written two posts about this on my blog:

Corrective Life Events: Can the Narcissist Change?

Corrective Life Events, Part Two (personal opinion)

If he was tentatively diagnosed as bipolar, did he take responsibility for his moods by getting therapy and taking medication?? If not, you are likely dealing with narcissism. Narcissists do not believe their perceptions are inaccurate and are loath to submit to therapy. I live with a sister who has bipolar and she knows that the only way to maintain relationships with her family (and her job reputation) is taking her medications without fail. She has learned from past experience that when she doesn't, her manias destroy all the hard work she has done getting her life together.

Narcissists, on the other hand, NEVER learn. Instead of connecting the dots of their current crisis TO THEMSELVES, they project blame and fault on everyone else, including coworkers, bosses and the corporation itself. As long as blame and fault are projected elsewhere, people avoid personal responsibility which means they do NOT change. It will be the same cycle over and over like Sisyphus, "compelled to roll a huge boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down, and to repeat this throughout eternity."

Build it up, tear it down, build it up, tear it down...never admitting to being at fault or humbling their grandiosity and seeking help. Unfortunately, we help them push the boulder up the hill and they let it roll on top of our heads. How tiresome it is to put our time, attention and effort into resolving problems and then be powerless to stop a partner from creating another mess again. You do get sick of it eventually, but it's still hard to walk away after years and years investing our hopes and dreams in the relationship.

A recent research project on 30,000+ people with NPD, suggests that if narcissism has not been treated and cured by midlife, it will become progressively worse and incurable. If the 'corrective life events' that occurred in your husband's life (embezzling funds and getting caught) did not result in permanent change, then it's unlikely he will suddenly turn into Mr. Sensitive Moral Man any time soon. In fact (and this is also corroborated by respected psychology theorists), midlife is a treacherous time for developing NPD. The narcissism was always there, only not as obvious as it becomes at midlife (affairs, preoccupation with genital stimulation, disinterest in family intimacy, desire to Start Over by reliving all their Missed opportunities, an inability to grieve their loss of youth and transition to a more meaningful relationship with life, resistance to aging, envy of partner's ability to age gracefully, a last-ditch attempt to deny reality by reverting to adolescent behavior....etc. )We see all these things and assume a partner is having a Midlife crisis that will eventually pass. This is a serious mistake for partners and family members who give excuses to the narcissist that he or she is ready to take advantage of.

They are sick. They need intensive therapy that is LONGTERM (even ten years is common), medications---usually an anti-depressant and maybe 'family therapy' so family members are not taking blame or remaining enmeshed with the narcissist. Even then, there are no guarantees that any change will occur but there is one guarantee: even if the narcissist's diagnosis changes, he or she will NEVER EVER be the kind of person most people want them to be.

Whenever someone tells me they want to stay in the relationship, I kindly suggest they keep a bag packed by the front door. You cannot pretend to yourself that one day the narcissist will turn into Mr. Empathy and Commitment. there is always the potential with anyone who has a narcissistic pathology, for them to Turn-on-a-dime and leave.

As others have written, every narcissist has cycles when he or she appears to be getting themselves together. Life goes swimmingly well and then suddenly, your head is being pushed under the water. If you can look at your history with your husband, you may notice that 'stress' aggravates his narcissistic defenses. This stress is not just related to failure however. It is also related to success. Success may be an even bigger factor for many narcissists because they know, on some level, that they are 'fakin' it'. They also become highly arrogant when their status supports their 'grandiosity'. As Heinz Kohut says, "Narcissists are Tragic Men'. We see them rise to the top and self-destruct and when this happens (because their arrogance leads to unethical behavior like embezzling funds they believe they are entitled to), you can be pretty much certain that the person is a Narcissist.

Hugs,
CZ

[changedspirit]

I am just.... believe it or not --WARM AND FUZZY right now, like that feeling of after being on a vacation as a kid, being homesick and then actually coming home....and feeling all bathed in security and feeling like i belong and can finally curl up in my own safe and comfortable bed  to self -care, rest and renew.  I actually have tears in my eyes because all of you have taken the time and energy out of your day and reached out to me and shared your insight and wisdom and history, giving me food for reflection, resources and some cracks of clarity.

Some of the insight and advice on a deep cellular level resonates to my core, and makes me feel whole - solid as i feel as I integrate the pain and not run away. Other things deep inside still make me want to hold on. Fear of the unknown, deep deep abandonment issues (from my father being in a VA hospital for WWII PSTD and mental illness from when I was age 2 1/2 to 5 or 6) I will write more later after I process the wealth of information and knowledge, but I just needed to send my gratitude energy back --IMMEDIATELY.

Holy Cow CZBZ - WON is cathartic - whoda known? --after sitting on the sidelines all these months and just reading. 

VIPARYAYO MITHYAJNANAM ATADRUPA PRATISTHAM --Misconception occurs when knowledge of something is not based on its true form
from The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali - Pada I.VIII

Namaste - Changed Spirit

 

[Freezer Burned]

Changedspirit,

The word remission implies that something is happening TO the N. Narcissism is not something that happens TO people, it is the result of the choices that they make, that is why medication doesn't help them. There is no pill that will force you to make better choices.

The Ns "remission" is schmoozing.

[LettingGo]

  ChangedSprit Welcome to WoN. I am so glad you took the chance to step in. This is a great place. I'm glad it feels like home to ya. I have been surfing over where for a few months now and I haven't met one sting ray or shark. The water is safe and comfortable -- CZ makes sure of it.

I agree with the others Ns don't go into remission. Less abusive is not better, it does not make a N a "good" person it just makes them less abusive. It is all about proper perspective and clearly defining for ourselves what makes a good person which is the absence of abuse not less abuse.

Where There is Love There is No Abuse and Where There is Abuse There is No Love.

VampMom who I refer to as the Momster, is Bi Polar which is a mood disorder and is her secondary dx. Her Primary ones are many and include Nism. If a person were only Bi Polar then as CZ stated their behavior can stabilize as w/her Sister.
Nism is a Personality Disorder or what I refer to as a Soul Disorder, because they lack a conscious. Meds can not change a ones Personality. Our Society thinks if someone has a mental disorder they are not responsible for their own behaviors."Mental illness made him do it" -- A Mood Disorder such as Bipolor will not "make" anyone do abusive & evil things. Metal illness will give people grandiose ideas & influence their mood either "up" or "down", but what people do in the highly elevated or depressed state has to do with their personality/soul. When two different people, person A & person B hit the "pit of depression", Person A applies the anger inward and wants to kill him/herself because s/he feels worthless as a parent, spouse, friend, etc. in contrast to the other depressed person, Person B who wants to kill others or abuse others verbally or physically. Same depression, one person chooses to blame him/herself where the other person blames others (this second person is known as the Narcassist/Sociopath/Anti-Social). In the elevated grandiose "up" state the first person, Person A wants to "save the world" where the second, Person B wants to destroy it. The same metal illness in these two cases--the difference is choice, to do good or to do evil.

It is interesting that usually when things were going better your H got worse. A normal person would be thrilled that after a difficult challenge in their life s/he has over come, but not Ns, they are addicted to the chaos. They can not stand for things to be calm & peaceful it stresses them out and causes them to flip out hence creating drama so that they can get their NS from everyone else who is cleaning up their toxic mess. Ns are Emotional Vamps who need high level of intensity, their drug of choice is unfiltered adoration/worship that is why the courtship is so powerful and we become N-chanted and entangled because we mirror adoration to the N and he loves that and in turn mirrors adoration back to us, but it is only a Counterfeit because he is only copying our behavior. Once you discover he wears the mask, and he knows that you know -- then the gig is up. If must go to his back up source because your feelings are now tainted w/reality and truth and can no longer offer pure adoration.

An N w/a dx of any mental disorder makes things worse not better. To Ns it is a licensee to be evil. We think at last they will get & accept the help they need and want to change their lives for themselves and the ones they love -- but that is what a Normal person does and Ns are NOT Normal, they have no conscience. Are they conscious of what they are doing is wrong? Yes, they just don't care. For decades I thought the Momster was not responsible for her hurtful behavior because she was not conscious of what she was doing when she was abusing her children  (when we were little kids and full grown adults. However, I was very wrong. She was very conscious of what she was doing was hurtful to others -- she just didn't care. The Proverbial Last Straw the fact that I along w/my Sibs gave her numerous changes to have regret & remorse for something horrible that she had said & done  to me, but instead she threw down her mask and said, "sorry, BUT that is how I truly feel. I truly fee that way." "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou. It was a blessing that the Momster actually admitted to being a person without remorse. If she would have said the words I wanted to hear Counterfeit Remorse I would have done what I always do, make an excuse for her & forgive her. Hard to find excuses and stay in denial when the Momster says she has no regret or remorse and is pleased w/herself for admitting how she truly feels.

Just because a person denies what they are doing, or denies they have a problem does not necessarily mean that they are in denial -- they could just be lying to you. Ns are pathological liars, because they will hand you lie after lie until they find one that we will believe. They are very aware of what they are doing is wrong, that is why they do it in secret. The Momster never beat us in public -- why because she was in control of her behavior and waited until we in the privacy of her dark pit.

Keep reading, posting, ask any question you need, listening, learning and things will become clearer. The one thing to always keep in mind, especially when the toxic fumes from the gaslighting become so strong is that he is a N that's why thing N-volving him will never fully makes sense to you.

[betterdays]

Hello and welcome, Changed,

Technically N's are deformed, not sick.  They can't get better, they just use us for crutches.  NH here has been diagnosed first with depression, then Generalized Anxiety Disorder, then something else he would not tell me, and now NPD.  He delights in manipulating therapists and any institution he works with or for.  He has a high degree of sociopathy, or criminal behavior; and histrionics, or drama king behavior.  They are each a bit different, but the core behaviors and even the things they say are identical.

I wish you well, this is the place with real resources and some out-of-the-box thinking.  Check out the readings and the videos, esp. Gavin De Beker's clips. I personally stay away from any that blame the victim, like Vaknin and a couple others.  Is it okay to say that?

[CZBZ]

Is it okay to say that? Well, yea. Just don't post the name of the website. We've had a few Vaknin groupies rain hell on this place so please don't feed the 'flying monkeys'...LOL

Hugs,
CZ

EDITED to answer your question below: "shall I delete?"

p.s. No need to delete anything betterdays, but thank you for being so considerate. You musta witnessed one of those Board Wars before, eh??  

[betterdays]

Shall I delete?

Edit:  I have only ever read on the other boards, because they seem to all blame and talk down to women in deep need, and there are some very hurtful things said to people in pain, in the guise of humor.  Wars seem to pop up all the time, so I have pretty much quit even reading.  I get real answers here.

[Legs]

Ns are NOT Normal, they have no conscience. Are they conscious of what they are doing is wrong? Yes, they just don't care

That's what I want to know the most...do they really even know what they are doing? I keep reading articles about how their brains don't process emotions and they don't even feel most emotions and they can't even recognize different emotions on people's faces and how they don't have normal amounts of serotonin and dopamine and they have to indulge in risk-taking behaviors to boot their levels up to normal and all kinds of studies about how their brains don't work like most people......

Now, no matter WHAT us wrong with Lucifer, I don't want a lying, cheating STOOPID man in my life, so he's gone but the thing that keeps bugging me...what if what they do is not about hurting other people or  anything other than them doing whatever they can to make themselves feel decent. Not even good, because I don't think they have the capacity to love or to be loved, so how good can their lives ever really be without that?

I am just thinking that as time goes on, society won't see N behaviors as "choices" that they make...

Legs, who would love to blame it all on selfishness and is NOT making excuses for their nastiness, but I am wondering if 20 years from now, they will do a genetic test on embryos and if they have the N gene, they'll just put them down before they're even born.....maybe you'll be able to take a preg-N-ancy test and if you're carrying a future baby N, you can go the the drugstore and have it buy something to dissolve it

Now, really..if there was a way to tell, would you want to know and would you kill it?? Like The Bad Seed? OH, wait! That reminds me of a book I read several years ago....it was called 'We Need to Talk About Kevin,A Novel' by Lionel Shriver..as I remember, it was all about a kid who ended up shooting some classmates, but the Mom knew almost from his birth, that he was bad news.... when I read it, (and it was written as I remember as a series of letters or diary entries or something like that) it seemed very real and not novel-ish at all. I remember thinking, why didn't she just kill it?

[changedspirit]

Peartree - thank you for the compassion and caring. You asked me do I know what I want to do.  Well after being together for 32 plus years, and having to financially start from scratch with a, negative $250,000. in debt eleven years ago, and thawing out from the affair - i'm just finally coming up for air and piecing together what REALLY happened,  I was in this prison of anger and denial and kept wondering why the world was such a bad place...blah, blah, blah and now I get the who, what, where and why all this DEVISTATION was happening in my life: "Ta Da - Nland"  What I want to do right now IS WORK }ON ME and with my reality of depleted resources financially and family support (two siblings live fairly far away, Dad passed away and Mom in nursing home} right now for practical purposes that needs to be within the marriage.  I am striving to emotionally detach, and GET BUSY WITH MY UNFINISHED BUSINESS.  I understand  leaving and NC makes this process accelerate with lightening speed and gives us  the closure, but right now, it's not an option.
He does work on his stuff a little in therapy -when I see him process and look at issues, it's like he has a massive learning disability, which helps me get that most of his crap is probably rooted in him since age 3. I'm trying to incorporate the 3 C Mantra : I didn't CAUSE it,I can't CONTROL it, I can't CURE it.
I CAN CHANGE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[changedspirit]

Honeybear & eyes up -- thanx for telling me to do my one-on-one own counseling - I know soon that will be a new step for me.  The thing about them getting worse with age is so BONE CHILLING to me because i truly see that in him, it's like he's regressing and devolving -- and deep inside i know i should maybe just 'get out of the way" rather than let the "runaway N train mow me down" - it's really such a hard process to make that shift and stay there especially when the chaos and destabilizing is going on. 

CZ - your wisdom and insight is mindblowing.  the statement about midlife--ie. "affairs, preoccupation with genital stimulation, disinterest in family intimacy, reliving missed opportunities, etc. is exactly him.  The marriage therapist actually used SISSYPHUS and the huge bolder metaphor to explain stuff to him during a session. The corrective life events is sobering, as the aging thing keeps coming up again and again.  I realize now  when his MAJOR N mother died, that was around the time he went nuts embezzeling.  She used to manipulate and castrate him and control him. His father is 84ish and I'm just wondering what will happen when he passes away.  I think I read somewhere that when their authority figures are out of the picture they might go HOG WILD., does anyone have any infor about that?  I guess keeping a packed bag by the door means, I can work on my stuff from within the relationship but I better come up with solid plan B in juxtaposition.  More later.  Time to get ready for work

[tango3]

Quite early on in our marriage my stbxN started his business - it all went south in a hurry and we ended up over $100,000 in debt.  It took years to dig ourselves out of the hole he put us in but we managed it.  I'm thinking all the worry and stress I went through over our financial situation masked the problems that were, even then, quite obvious with him.  Fast forward to the last 5 years of the marriage, he went into business again - something I didn't want him to do, but hey what I wanted was never important - this time much more successful and he started making a lot of money.  The vast amounts of money he was making, coupled with the authority he now had as boss of the company, and mid-life - well you can guess what happened.  And yes the triggering event was the diagnosis of pancreatic cancer in his abusive father (I highly suspect another N).  It was all downhill from there - starting with the accusation that I wasn't sympathetic enough about the terrible tragedy he was undergoing.......

[peartree]

hi changedspirit, sounds like you are coming out of a v bad experience. please know we are all here for you and rooting for you and it sounds like you are already disengaging from the blame game Ns play and instead focusing on you. thats so brilliant. be the best friend to yourself you can, love yourself as hard and as thoroughly as you can and i promise you it will get easier. keep posting and letting us know how you are doing and if you need anything.
great to have you
peartree x x x