Trying to process the impossible

[SusyP14]

It’s official; I am a N magnet.

So I have written about a particular friend in my personal journal, but I have never written about her on the board.  I never in a million years thought of her as a Narcissist.  NEVER.  But I have always known she was very controlling and had some odd behaviors.  Her controlling behaviors mainly revolved around things like restaurants (she would only eat at certain places,  not necessarily expensive restaurants, but they had to be ‘charming’ – not ordinary), where we would sit in the restaurant (like friggin goldilocks, she would have a waiter move us to several tables before she found the right one), etc.  I always considered her a little odd and eccentric.  We will call her TC (for The Controller).

Looking back, I should have known there were some issues although we have been friends for about 8 years.  I have always considered her a good friend and she was super supportive during the break-up with xn.  Taking my endless calls and listening to me cry and lament about my broken heart for HOURS.  We also share a lot of common interests:  foreign movies, political documentaries, environmental issues, architectural home tours and concerts.

It is a little difficult to describe her without having a long and boring discourse, but I will give you a few of the red flags.

I once took her to my BFF’s house in another city.  Now my BFF practically runs a bed and breakfast.  She lives right on the water in a really nice home and she has always had an open door policy about guests.  TC immediately got on her nerves by asking her to turn off the TV (because she did not like the noise).  My BFF reluctantly turned off the TV (as ordered) but shot me a look that would have melted an iceberg. 

We were visiting in the scorching summer, with my BFF running her AC at full blast.  After we went to bed, my friend calls me on my cell phone wanting to know if I am in the room above the garage.  I replied:  No, it’s TC, why?  Turns out she had opened her window with the AC running.  In the am, I asked her why she did that and she informed me that she 'requires' fresh air.  My BFF was livid and told me she was never welcome in her house again.  She had never told me that about any of my other friends.  The exact opposite, they were lovely and welcome back anytime.

Where I live they have a lot of house tours.  My entire core group of friends enjoys them and we normally go together.  After the last 2 tours, several of the group said that TC was way too bossy (walking very fast, telling them to hurry if they were lingering at any particular house, wanting to go left instead of right, etc.) and to never include her in our house tour outings.  OK, so I am still not getting that there is a problem.

A couple of weeks ago, 4 of us were meeting for lunch. We arrive and the designated restaurant is closed.  No big deal, as there are about 12 eating choices within a few blocks. 3 of us could care less, but TC is insisting we go to a pizza place which is about 10 miles away.  After a ridiculous debate, we ended up eating at a close by restaurant, but TC was visibly upset that she had not gotten her way.

My friend BA who is practically a saint and never says a bad word about anyone once again told me: I don’t want to be around TC anymore. Please do not invite me if she is attending, she stresses me out.  So this is friend #7 who wants nothing to do with her.  So I am just thinking, OK, other people are not a big fan of hers, so I will make sure that it is just she and I when we get together.

Saturday night was the last straw.  TC and I met for dinner.  We were walking out of the restaurant and TC had leftovers.  A homeless man approaches us and asks if she would give him her food because he was hungry.  TC tells him NO.

I was ASTONISHED.  WTH???  This man was not even asking you for money, but for food and you would tell him NO?  Are you kidding me?  Talk about a lack of empathy.  You are not willing to share your leftovers with a hungry person.  After I told the man to stand right there and that I would go in and get him some food, she then reluctantly handed over her leftovers.  After he walked away, she pouted and said:  I needed them more then him.  I looked at her like she was insane.  TC, btw, is a highly paid professional that will only purchase organic food and had just paid extra at dinner for organic wine.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, but how are you going to say that you needed that food more then a homeless person?

It was like the veil had lifted.  How have I missed this for 8 years?  I pulled out the DSM criteria and realized that she scored very high in most areas.  I remembered this article:

Personality Disorders are individuals who have a long history of personality, behavior, emotional, and relationship difficulties. This group is said to have a “personality disorder” — an enduring pattern of inner experience (mood, attitude, beliefs, values, etc.) and behavior (aggressiveness, instability, etc.) that is significantly different than those in their family or culture. These dysfunctional patterns are inflexible and intrusive into almost every aspect of the individual’s life. These patterns create significant problems in personal and emotional functioning and are often so severe that they lead to distress or impairment in all areas of their life. (Source: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition)

Over a year of posting on this board like a mad woman and I could not recognize this behavior that was right under my nose?  I feel like I have failed a big test.

[eyes_up]

Susy, It actually looks like you are picking up on it NOW and that is the point. I used to not pick up on that stuff either. I have had plenty of friends who were just that, eccentric or creative and different... OH ,Well, let me tell you about eccentric and creative and what about different HUH! but it took me time to connect it all up and now I respond quite instantly when some one is over board. I can tell the difference clearly.

I will share a recent story in this vein. There is a woman in one of my classes. From the very get go of meeting her she talked a mile a minute about her and her voice and her dance and her this and her that. She also works at appealing to ones ego meaning she embarks on what or how some one is so great. Same thing over and over again every week ... and then come all of her problems etc... It is all about her unless she is trying to appeal to my ego which doesn't exactly work any more.

Any way.... I have worked steadily to create boundaries with her. It would have been just months ago she asked me at the end of class in front of the class what was my yoga education.

I answered her then ... Last week she did the same thing. Now this for some reason had made me uncomfortable along with a list of other things she has asked like a broadcast /Interview or in this case a job interview.


This time I turned and looked at her and said... "what is this, A job interview, you wnat me to tell you my education history"

See the thing is, I finally got it. I finally linked it all up

I figured out what felt wrong and on top of that I had the right response.

This stuff comes slowly but surely.

It is not that you or I are N magnets it that it requires that feeling, or felt sense that the person is off. I do not draw Narcs ... I just don't give them a good reason to leave like maybe being revolted by the sick behavior. Now I am revolted ... so are you. give yourself a break and don't be looking at it like it is hopeless.... you are learning .... so am I.

Last but not least this has every thing to do with what feels acceptable. If you lived with a narcissistic parent then the behaviors do not seem out landish or odd or off or what ever. they just seem like something one is used to. I nearly fit entirely into that condition up until quite recently. So, give your self a pat on the back for putting the puzzle together.

Peace,

eyes_up

[honeybearII]

I see it the way eyes does, Susy.  Like you, I have a broad range of friends and while most of them are easy to please and get along with, a couple of them are, shall we say, "challenged" in the social areas, LOL.  They are just high maintenance, and since I am generally an easy going person and since I don't LIVE with them, it might be hard for me to see the N-patterNs even when they are right in front of me. 

I don't think it's as important WHEN you get them as the fact that you DO get them.  N's are generally miserable people to travel or socialize with because it is All About Them.  They just don't CARE about compromising or group dynamics.  They want what they want, and can be pretty darn pushy about getting it.  What amazes me is that most people will just fold and go along because an N can make life miserable if you don't.  On the other hand, if they get their way they can be charming, personable and funny.  It definitely is a two-sided coin!
Honey

[Jacintae]

(((((Suzy))))). Hugs.

You are one of the most beautiful people that I have ever met. Trust yourself. YOU are the best friend that you ever had. Get rid of that N.


Love

Jac xxx

[May]

 Iam the same way. Sometimes I don`t see things right away and sometimes I do. What`s maddening is when you`ve put all this time in effort into a relationship and then find out who they really are.

[CZBZ]

I love stories, Susy. Thanks for the morning tale.  I also love friends (I think that point was covered on another thread, LOL!). Your story is really interesting though. It wasn't ONE incident that forced your BFF to finally say something. The air conditioner story is the 'final straw' when your friend put 'all' the pieces together and said she would not welcome TC in her home again. It's the big picture...the whole shebang, the Tipping Point.

Maybe people who are naturally friendly and easy-going have a hard time saying "no' and ending a friendship? Like Eyes said, it's not that we mysteriously draw Ns into our lives. they're everywhere. It's that we don't know how to end the relationship once we've connected with them. I've struggled with this, too. How do you end a friendship that is no longer 'friendly'?

My X used to say there were two ways to end a relationship: starve it to death or blow it up. He was quite fond of the latter.  There might be other ways that aren't as extreme (ya think???!!!) such as NOT LETTING your friend 'have her way' all the time. Letting other people take the lead their fair share of the time and I'll bet you ten bucks that your friend quits attending your get-togethers. That's all you have to do you see. Just do what YOU want to do, let your other friends choose what the group will do and only let your narcie-friend have her way on an equal and fair basis with everyone else. Don't let her be Special and she will eventually be 'too busy' growing organic tomatoes to go to lunch. hahaha!

Don't be shocked that you've been friends with a narcissistic person. It's pretty common for easy-going people who don't mind letting someone else take the lead so that means WE must take the lead our fair share, too. If the friendship is not reciprocally invested in one another's joy, happiness, and interests, well...it will end.


Hugs,
CZ

[eyes_up]

Honey brings up a good point here.

"They are just high maintenance, and since I am generally an easy going person and since I don't LIVE with them, it might be hard for me to see the N-patterNs even when they are right in front of me." ~ Honey

There are a couple of things that come to mind. One is that when one is "easy going" it also means the person is capable of interacting with all kinds of people with out being affected in a negative manner. That is a positive in my book.

The other side of this is boundaries. So while every one else is getting bent out of shape because the narc puts on the air conditioner or is rambling on about his or her greatness... you might be free to not get caught up in the obscenity or the over the top.

I think what happens is that these over the top or "high maintenance" iNdividuals do not have to be a threat and in fact it is better if they are NOT experienced that  way. I like the way Honey puts it because she knows they require extra attention and do not give to the group or the companion what they request.

Then comes the point at which YOU or myself, any one ... is crossed. Our value system is crossed, our point of sensation is finally tested.

I think you made the right move in the above story. You stated your point of view and created space for yourself. On top of that you can make a decision. The ball in in your court and it always has been. this means you can decide that this person does not share your values and isn't the kind of person you want to build a relationship with. You can be acquaintances or just lessen the connection. sure you have similar interest. I can say that in terms of every narcissist I ever knew. There was something in the relationship that was attractive to me, something that I did receive.

so, it gets down to are you willing to bear, hadle, tolerate or even remain unaffected by with the yuk stuff for the good stuff AND Is the YUK stuff just too much.

The issue is when we allow our point of sensation, our boundaries and values to be dishonored for the other persons concern constantly or chronically. That is when there is an issue.

You may not have such hard lines drawn and other do. In fact if I was at a hotel or bed and breakfast with the windows closed and the air conditioner on I would desire to open the windows depending on the climate. I am not sure what I would do exactly. Some times I tend to myself and some times I consider the whole operation. But I can tell you I would not keep the windows closed if the room was too cold or I would request another temperature. From that point on I would not go to a bed and breakfast that wasn't my preference.

I understand you are finally seeing a repeat in pattern to this person character. You actually picked up on what crossed your value system. that is the important point... differentiating and know what makes you different and a whole self apart from the other person. If and when those lines are skewed or blurred then there is an issue. Fact is ... it is not your business what this person does with her food. but you are able to access a quality of her nature and values which only reflects and allows you to define your values.

You decided to stand up with your point and really that is all there is to it. Now if the woman decided to throw a fit and argue with you over it... create a situation where she develop a dialog that would turn the tables and condemn you for you choice or feelings then that is when things are getting a bit raw in my opinion.

I always figure the more values shared , rather than interest , create a more in depth relationship.

Narcs do not need to be offensive on a personal level. Boundaries work wonders. I have a narc sort of friend. I have rambled about this in my personal journal several times. What it gets down to is how much of an equal exchange is happening. If I feel depleted... If the needs I want met are not being met then good bye.

Interestingly enough, when I stopped giving supply the narc just leaves. It seems to be that simple. When I stop wanting to hear all their problems and dialog they just go else where. When I draw a line and state my values , this helps as well. I don't just ignore and pretend I accept for the sake of wanting a movie partner or what ever. I stick it out and take my chances at finding a more appropriate movie partner.

(((hugs)))

eyes

[redhairtemper]

Susy, don't' beat yourself up.  One of our greatest qualities is also our greatest failings.  We are more forgiving and tolerant than anyone else.  It makes us awesome friends but N targets.

I have a similar story to yours: I was the one that clued into my sister's narcissism ahead of anyone else in the family.  We eventually had a large family meeting with a psychiatrist who discussed her obvious personality disorder. 

I spent months and months researching narcissism, reading professional papers, books etc. 

And guess who I shared it with? Guess who I poured out my heart and soul to about how cruel my sister was and how awful it was that she lacked empathy?  MY ex-husband.  His narcissism makes my sister look like a saint.  She's small time.

How could I have not seen it?  I was so well-versed at it.  I was actually planning on starting graduate studies in psychology to study personality disorders!!!! 

I have started to reconcile myself to the fact that my nature is to see the best in others and I can either become the most cynical person in the world or I can embrace this as a quality about myself that I like but one that may from time to time, get me in a little trouble.  At least I know that I can take care of myself!

[SusyP14]

I always figure the more values shared , rather than interest , create a more in depth relationship.

Thank you for bringing up that point Eyes there have been several things she has done which I found very odd and not sharing of my values.  For example, she thinks there is nothing wrong with going to a store, buying an item (one example a blow up mattress) using it for a camping trip and then returning it.  I have no problems buying something and realizing that you don't like it, was not the right size or even using a blow up mattress realizing that is super uncomfortable, and returning it.  But she goes to Target and buys the same blow up mattres every time she wants to go camping and then returns it, as if Target were a free 'mattress rental' store.

Saturday night she was showing me a book that she thought I might like.  It was a memoir about a borderline and she knows how interested I am in PDs.  So I said:  It looks interesting, let me borrow it when you are done.  And she replies:  Oh no, I am returning it.  So I replied:  Oh, its a library book?  And she goes:  No, I do that all the time, I buy books and read them and then return them to Borders.

Again, those things are not ok with my values.  Since when did a for profit bookstore become your own personal lending library?

And btw, I was joking about my friends house being a B&B.  I just said that because she gets SO MUCH company (probably because she lives right on the water and has 4 extra bedrooms).  Of course if you are at a hotel or B&B, you should be able to adjust the room temperature, but she was not too cold.  She was raised in Europe and told me that in Europe it is customary to 'air' out your room with fresh air.  Well if you want to open a window at your own house and let all of the expensive AC, that is is fine, but you should not do that as non-paying guest in someones home, right? 

If you are not a narcissist you should be able to limit your idiosyncratic behavior to your own home or at least where it is not affecting someone else’s pocketbook.  If she needed ‘fresh air’ so badly, she should have walked outside.

[SusyP14]

N's are generally miserable people to travel or socialize with because it is All About Them.  They just don't CARE about compromising or group dynamics.  They want what they want, and can be pretty darn pushy about getting it.  What amazes me is that most people will just fold and go along because an N can make life miserable if you don't.  On the other hand, if they get their way they can be charming, personable and funny.  It definitely is a two-sided coin!
Honey

That sums it up perfectly Honey.  Just how many tattoos am I supposed to get?  Maybe this can be embroidered on a pillow.

[Litha]

There might be other ways that aren't as extreme (ya think???!!!) such as NOT LETTING your friend 'have her way' all the time. Letting other people take the lead their fair share of the time and I'll bet you ten bucks that your friend quits attending your get-togethers.

I managed to end a frieNdship this way once. This was years ago, before I knew what to call it, but she was definitely N. After several years I decided to start treating her just as she was treating me. One night she went off on a political tirade (I had just done a really big favor for her and her family, so this was not anything I brought upon myself), and I did not share her opinion so I calmly and respectfully told her so. Her response?

"Don't you talk back to me!"

Ok, this woman was several years younger, a foot shorter, and probably 100lbs thinner than me, yet she was screaming at me as if I were a rebellious child instead of a peer. Well, she ended  the relationship by letter within a week or two. Good riddance!

Congratulate yourself that you are now able to recognize this behavior and move on.

 
Litha

[SusyP14]

Thanks everyone for the super supportive comments.  They warm my 

[tango3]

Small point, yeah Europeans do open up their bedroom windows at night but that's because they DON'T HAVE A/C!  Got nothing to do with fresh air, airing the room out or whatever.

[eyes_up]

Susy, Not sure if you will relate to this ... One of my main experiences with in the change of going from being a narc medium to a narc detector was the ability to honor my voice.

This was a huge step. Details : It used to be that I would pick up on the weirdness But what I would not do is value my voice. That is what got in the way. When I listen to my inner voice and value what it is saying then every thing works smooth.

Honestly, My life has not been wall to wall carpeted emotionally disturbed or pathological peoples. It has been more like salt and pepper. I am still attracted to so called different kind of people but I have a better idea with in that range what is healthy. On the other side , say with more or less and seemingly ordinary people, they to can be absolutely just as sick.

Two things here ... establishing values and boundaries and carrying through with honoring inner voice.

I used to believe to some degree that my voice was a judgment that I would not allow. As if to say being judgmental was a negative. Well, Not any more. This would be a huge change.

eyes_up

[NewWings4MeNow]

Suzy,

I read your initial post.  Your descriptions sound an AWFUL LOT LIKE XNMIL, someone very high maintenance who required things a certain way or there was a problem (as v. preferring things a certain way but then going along with it).  

Net is that nothing was ever simple.

In their house it was first the organic food, then eat this but not that (even as a guest in my home, and it had nothing to do with dietary restrictions or allergies).  I'm saying this as someone who respects those who prefer natural or organic foods.

She and XFIL visited once and, five minutes after they'd arrived by plane and traveled the one hour to get to our house, insisted that we all drive out again ten miles to an organic grocery store to get some kind of vitamin or food supplement.  Again, not medically required and no time urgency, and she couldn't have cared less what else was on anybody else's agenda for their first day with us.

Got a cold?  The flu?  Couldn't reach for a simple 12-hour medication.  She had to put someone on a 6-dose regimen of a variety of homeopathic remedies that resulted in no changes I could ever detect.  Again, saying this as someone who respects that there's a place and use for homeopathy -- she just had an entire drawerful and would get in my/others' faces demanding that we take them without ever asking us, grown-ups, if we wanted to or were interested at all.

Thanksgiving?  Couldn't just have The Turkey.  Had to have two, one regular and one brined/BBQd.  Couldn't just have The Apple Pie.  Had to make it all from scratch and, the last Thanksgiving I had with them in our former home, that actual day she wasn't happy with how the pie was coming together, had a huge tantrum over it, threw the whole thing out and started again.  In my life I was more used to families just ... making the meal ... then sitting down to enjoy it.  

A random day?  She'd send XFIL out to the store, a 15 minute drive, for one item.  He'd return.  She'd need another one item, and sent him out again.

Once toward the end of our marriage, when I had pulled away from them but we were sharing a weekend ski house, parents and kids all sat at an inside picnic table having lunch.  D, then five(?), said a typical lilt to XNMIL that was usually said to the kids, "Grandma, Grandma, strong and able, get your elbows off the table."  Instead of XNMIL saying, "Oh yes, you're right" and taking them off, XNMIL said instead, "I don't have to listen to, or do, anything you say."  And she did nothing.  

Swimming upstream, continuously.  That last Thanksgiving, while I drove with XNMIL in her car, she said, "My entire life whenever anybody's told me to go left I've gone right.  Because I can."  -- my first introduction to oppositional defiant disorder of a sort, and descent into active N-hell.

"Over a year of posting on this board like a mad woman
and I could not recognize this behavior that was right under my nose?  
I feel like I have failed a big test." ~ you

I'm so proud of you.  JUST LOOK AT ALL YOU'VE NOTICED!  LOOK AT ALL THE STRINGS YOU'VE LACED TOGETHER!  I had 45+ years of my life dealing with behaviors like this and internalized them, making them somehow related to me or my fault.  Now, with an educatioN, I look back on loads of people interactions and read them completely, totally differently today.  So we deal with Ns and learn the hard way, then have the gift of applying those lessons to others, and benefit.  Sure, perhaps you didn't know/couldn't see/weren't educated early to understand what those around you seemed to instinctively "get" (that sieve/sifter I thought for years I was missing) ... but now you do and that's the most important thing.  Pity those who still don't get all that you've learned ....  And imagine how you could now Pay It Forward and whose lives YOU might now change for the better ...?

NewWings4MeNow