Confused Newby

[Clare]

I am very confused and do not know what to do. I strongly believe that my mother is NPD and am not sure about my ex.

My mom meets all the symptoms under the symptom check list. I've tried to cut her out of my life many times and she always sucks me back in.

My main concern right now is my ex. I'll give brief history.  During our marriage he was emotionally distant as far as he didn't share his feelings with me. He never had deep conversations or anything like that.  He worked a lot and didn't spend much quality time with me.  I wasn't happy and did nag him and complain sometimes.  We were very young.  I was 20 and he was 21 when we married.
My oldest daughter was 2 and my youngest was an infant when he left us. He left us with no money.  I lost my house and my car etc.  He found another woman and married her.  However, at the time he said I emotionally abused him and he cried a lot and talked about how hurt he was because of me etc.  I felt very guilty and thouht it was all my fault for a long time.

My oldest daughter has PDD NOS which is under the autism spectrum and my youngest daughter is dyslexic.  They are 12 and 10 years old.  I put myself through college and do the best I can with my girls. I have gotton them help and continue with the services they need.
My ex has critisized me and my parenting for the last 10 years.  He blames me for their symptoms and denies the actual diagnosis's.  He gets them every other weekend and pays child support.  However, he allows his wife to be mean to the girls.  It's not blantant abuse but mean.  For example they like to play the slug bug game in the car.  My daughter called  red slug bug and her stepmom said it doesn't count because she didn't see it first.  Their dad was in the car and doesn't  say anything.  THis is just one example.  Anyway, he also tells the girls that I emotionally abuse him etc.  Anytime we have an arguement he tells the girls all about it and always makes me look bad and him good Girls aren't allowed to get anything to eat or leave their rooms in the mornings until he and his wife get up etc.   My ex and his wife had a baby in June and girls are happy about that.  ANyway, to get to my big issue.  My oldest daughter's main issue with the pdd is poor social skills and struggles with communication. She doesn't interact well with others.  In addition to that neither one of my kids are comftorable telling their dad what they think or how they feel etc.   They both share that with me for the most part.  My oldest is closed and private too.  Neither one of them like it much at their dads but really want a relationship with him and try to please him etc.  Last Wed. he told them he was going to pick them up.  He never went through me as I have told him he needs to.  My daughter didn't want to go on Wed. and she wanted to go on Thurs instead.  He called her and got mad at her for changing their plans.  He told her he wasn't getting her until Friday then.  However, he told me he would get them on Thurs.  I told him that he i s not going to manipulate her and since he told her Fri then it will be Fri.  He called me Fri morning and told me he wanted to have a meeting with me and the girlsLet me back up he went off on me Wed. night when I told him he couldnt get them until Friday.  He told me that I'm crazy and need meds. He  blamed me for everything and all that.  I told him he's not going to talk to me like that an dI was ending the conversation.  Okay so Friday we had a our meeting.  He started crying and said how mad my daughter hurt his feelings for changing plans.  He also said that he didn't like that the girls don't talk to him.  He told the girls a bunch of lies about me and turned around things that I said to him.  I tried to calm him down to not cause scene in front of girls .  GIrls haad their bags packed etc.  THen he told the girls that they cannot visit him and they cannot come with him until they talk to him about why they aren't comftorable talking to him etc.  He told them and me that I baby them and they need to tell him why they didn't want to come to his house on Wed. and why they wont tell him other things etc.   My girls were crying.  I never saw my oldest daughter cry that hard before.  They thought it was their fault.  We have not heard from him.  TOday he sent my oldest daughter an email telling her that her cousins are coming in on Sat.  He didn't say anything else.  What was the point of that e-mail?  I am very concerned about him ever being alone with the girls.  IF he said all those terrible things in front of me I don't know what he has or would say behind my back.  Not to mention how much hurt he caused them on Friday.  My youngest thinks it will all be better if she calls him.  I don't want to keep them from seeing him but I think it's harmful to them.  I don't know what to do? How can a parent love their kids and do that?  I know I left a lot out because it's too much and this page keeps going up so it's hard for me to see what I'm typing.  It's been years of this stuff and Im worried that more has happened and the girls were too afraid to tell me.  I did start them in counseling this week.  Does he sound like NPD? Or do you think he really believes me and the girls are to blame? 

[betterdays]

My Nh did things like this to my D, and she was clear on the fact that it was his anger and witholding attitude that upset her, not the loss of him or his activities with her. In other words, when he pulled a scene, it was the scene that hurt her, not loss of time with him.  Do your D's feel this way, or do they want to see him?  If he said they can't come till they talk about why they don't talk, I'd just cut to the chase and tell them they must be comfortable, and if he makes them uncomfortable, they can write it in a journal. I also pointed out kids who did not see their fathers and were fine, and that was the extent of my influence. D told N when he attacked her verbally at age 11 that she was happier when we stayed with relatives, and that she did not want to go eat fast food with him.  If you have their feelings documented in a journal, it can be used in visitation hearings.  If they document what he says, even better.

As for  if it's him or you, how many of you does he make cry and keep in turmoil?  I count 3. How many other people do this to you?  Does it seem that you have this situation everywhere, many places, or just with him?  Do you give ultimatums to your kids, threaten them, and feel you have to control them a lot?
It was easy for me to know My N was an N because he was diagnosed, but he still blamed me for everything.  D and I joke that he is like Toxic House Syndrome:  after we are home for an hour we feel sick.  We go out anywhere, and we feel much better. There is a Victims of NPD diagnosis, and it includes doubting yourself and reality.

[LettingGo]

  Clare to WoN. Sounds like you were married to a Counterfeit King. Pathological People are a psychological mutt in that they have more than one dx. He says others act like a baby, when he is going around like a hysterical child (projection). You might want to check out Histrionic personality disorder, males exhibit the traits a little different than females, but the over the drama is key, Nism is a trait of this disorder. Not make a formal dx. just looking at familiar traits. WoN is a great place to ask how to parent when the other parent is a N. You will learn a lot of great stuff. Please know it is not you, as Betterdays as said he is the one who is making the rest crazy, thus he is the crazy one who is projecting his traits onto you. Make sure the Counselor specializes in Nism and personality disorders as they affect family dynamics, I would also recommend that you find your own Counselor too. Sure the N is going to think that his point has been proven, but he would be wrong.

 

D and I joke that he is like Toxic House Syndrome:  after we are home for an hour we feel sick.

I use to feel the same way when I would go to see the Momster at my Sibs house or if the Momster came here to visit. After she left I felt like I had to have an exterminator and a Catholic Priest come over to cast out any demons buddies she brought with her.

[CZBZ]

If your message reply window keeps bouncing up and down when you are typing, switch to another browser. This happens to me with Internet Explorer. I use GoogleChrome and have no problems at all. If you don't have Google Chrome (or an alternative browser), try downloading it here: Google Chrome Browser (I will ask my son why Internet Explorer does this. I thought it was only my computer since no one else has ever mentioned this before.!)

*     *     *

Dear Clare,

You snagged a dyed-in-the-wool, true blue narcissist, didn't ya? I snagged one, too. I was also (and still am) accused of being Abusive. Of being an emotional and psychological monster who tears the man apart over the least little thing. Even after our divorce, there is no real introspection on his part, connecting the dots between his PERCEPTION of me as his abuser and his REAL abuser (his mother and stepmother). If you have boobs, you're pretty much one and the same to a narcissistic man, the perpetual victim of his own distorted perceptions and archaic rage.

So what do we do when the father of our children accuses us of abuse when we know 'they' are the abusers, not us? I asked other people, reinforced my relationships with non-narcissists, became very clear on who I was and how ridiculous it was to accuse me of abuse. Once I could eliminate any shreds of self-doubt about my husband's accusations, THEN his accusations bounced off my rubber-suit-confidence and back to himself. If you pick up on any hint that you emotionally abused your x-spouse, he will continue abusing you and his daughters and make everyone feel crazy because in their perceptions, you are NOT abusive but he says you are so who's right? If people can't compute (line up the dots) because of contradictory information, they feel at odds with themselves AND they are much, much easier to manipulate.

That may be why your daughters are crying. They don't experience you as abusive, yet their father says you are and now they don't know what to think because they are confused. He will use their confusion to support his accusations because he does not have to examine himself as long as people give his 'accusations' the benefit of a doubt.

You might try laughing/groaning/rolling your eyes when he accuses you of abuse. This tactic may work with your daughters, too. Here's an example of how I managed our way out of my husband's Delusions:

"Dad says you abused him emotionally."

"He did? What do you think?"

"Well, I think you're about as abusive as a marshmallow mom."

"So you're telling me you don't see me as abusive but your father does. Which view to you believe to be accurate?"

"Dad's messed up, isn't he?"

From this short conversation (you can tailor fit it to your children's ages since my kids were adults at the time), they begin to see that what their father sees and believes may not fit with other people's perceptions and he does not have authority over their OWN perceptions. This helps children separate from the narcissist's crazy perceptions so they can claim their own TRUTH. Eventually, you may find that your girls 'roll their eyes' when their father starts in on another tirade about YOU, the big mean ogre of an abusive mother who cares tenderly for her children. As they age (this has been my experience), they will be more capable of telling their father to STOP saying those things about their mother. This probably won't happen at their age so it's important for YOU to validate their perceptions and guide them into believing their own eyes rather than assuming there is any validity to their father's accusations.

A narcissist will continue seeing you as an abuser because he sees himself as a victim, which means he can justify treating you with disdain and anger. this may last for the rest of your life but it does not have to drive you or your daughter's crazy. Helping them see that what he says is HIS perception and not reality, will encourage them to trust themselves and YOU. When he starts in on another sob-fest about his sorry life, they will eventually know that that's "DAD" and he's a mess and it has nothing at all to do with the truth. This will take time. Sounds like you are a patient woman, which will help a lot while your daughters mature psychologically. Right now, they are too young to make sense of it all but they will. They Will.

About his accusations that you are 'ennabling' your children as an over-protective mother. That is TYPICAL. I've never met a narcissist yet who was supportive of a child's disabilities. They resent the child for being imperfect. They do not seek understanding because they do not SEE the child, they see the symptoms and that's as far as it goes. Narcissistic parents with children with disabilities are cruel beyond belief. RAther than learn how they can support the child to be and do the best they can, the narcissist will blame someone (most likely their partner) for causing the child's issues. This is hard to deal with, clare. give yourself a pat on the back for putting up with his abuse. I know it's not easy and you have traveled a rough road with this jackass already.

What I would focus on is helping my daughters understand that Dad's behavior is Dad's behavior and it has nothing to do with them. They did not Cause it, they cannot Control it and they certainly cannot Cure it. This 12-step slogan has helped my own kids and my nephew separate themselves from a parent with a mental disorder. You may want to ask a therapist whether he or she thinks it is appropriate to talk to your kids about 'mental illness/disorder' which can really help children avoid taking a Narc-parent's accusations seriously.

I also see that what your X is doing is very typical of narcissist: reverse parenting. Instead of taking care of the child like a responsible adult, the narcissist encourages the kids ot take care of him. It's all about Dad's widdle feewings and not theirs. This is the perfect set-up for codependency when the child feels responsible for the parent. This behavior turns the tables on the kids and they don't even realize what happened. Instead of focusing on Dad switching plans and how it made them feel, DAD starts crying and now everyon eis focused on poor widdle Dad whose feewings are hurt. See how that works? the kids lose contact with their own feelings and reach out to placate Dad's feelings. This is the beginning of many people's long struggles curing codependency with a parent who expected his or her children to meet their needs instead of the reverse.

"I don't want to keep them from seeing him but I think it's harmful to them. "

Of course you don't! Reality is however, you cannot ignore the law. This does not mean your children will be irreparably damaged however. Not if you are clear about NPD and how this disorder impacts other people so you can start teaching your children healthy boundaries. First step in my mind is encouraging them to believe their own perceptions and separate from Dad's SobFests. They can also learn to Let Dad have his sobfests without comforting him. When they do that, I can promise you, he will likely walk away entirely.


Hugs and Welcome to WoN!

CZ

[Clare]

Thank you for all the helpful responses.  I'm at work now.  Will try to download the other browser at home.  I did have Mozzilla but had problems with that.  Didn't know about the other browser. 
If you can believe it my mother is worse than my ex.  Maybe she's worse becasue she's impacted me more or maybe because I have more contact with her.  I also think it's because she's also an alcoholic and takes prescription pain pills regularly...like morphine, and she's type 1 diabetic which effects her behavior.
I have spent much of my life  being confused and questioning my own opinions, thoughts, feelings, etc.  Some how I was able to step back and think through things.  After careful thought and examination I can see that what my mother says about me is not true.  I get caught up in the ...."does she really believe that about me?", "how could she say those things to or about her own daughter?" type stuff.  In regards to my ex in the past I believed him and thought I was crazy.  I went to a counselor and a psychiatrist.  I stopped some of my oldest D's services thinking if I were better she'd get better.  The psych gave me an anti-depressant and counselor talked to be about the co-dependence.  I feel like everything is just screwed up in my head.  Me helping me did not change anything with my daughter.  Now I feel guilty for stopping her services and listening to him.  I know we have a court order and I also know that he will not take me to court over it. However, I don't want the turmoil.  My kids want to please their dad.  I have told them over and over that it is not their fault and only he can control himself and his feelings.  There is more that has happened that I don't know about.  My oldest daughter said that she will not tell me everything because she fears I will tell her dad.  In the past I would talk to him about the girls concerns because I believed he would work with me and make things better for the girls.  Instead he'd get mad at me and then confront the girls.  The girls would deny things to avoid conflict with him and then he'd accuse me of lying and causing trouble.  I guess I was insane because I thought ...this time he will listen and it will be better so I'd do the same thing.  I never got the results I was looking for.  About a year ago I appologized to the girls and told them I will never tell him anything anymore.  I told them that I didn't realize telling him things would make it harder on them.   Then this summer girls begged to bring their clothes to his house.  They said his clothes were too small for them.  He has ruined the clothes I bought in the past so I stopped sending them.  I continued to ruin them.  Anyway, I told girls I would have to talk to their dad to ensure the clothes I send don't get ruined.  I did and then sure enough their dad confronted them about not liking their clothes at his house.

I would say that is why my oldest daughter doesn't trust me enough to tell me.  I don't feel comftorable sending them over there until I do know what she's not telling me.  What if it is somethign that is really bad?   I have know idea what it could be.  I do have counseling set up for them.
Their dad sent my oldest D an e-mail last night.  This is all it said, "Your cousins are coming in on Saturday".   What is that?  Is that supposed to be an invitation?  Or is that a..hey look at what your missing out on type thing? 

The girls want to go see their cousins.  I told girls that I am very concerned about their safety based on what I witnessed on Friday and based on information they are keeping from me.  I told them that I am not making them tell me anything, but I want them to work their concerns out with a counselor.  I also told them that their dad seems like he needs some help.  I don't now if I am saying the wrong thing to them.  I don't want to cause further damage or trauma.  My youngest daughter told me that what we saw Friday is not normal.  She said that she has never seen her dad be that bad before and she's never seen her dad cry before.

I had another person tell me that when kids get to an age where they seem older then sometimes parents think it's okay to treat them like an "adult".  Maybe that is what is going on? 

In the past I have sat down and wrote a list of the mistakes that I think I made in regards to the girls and him.  I have made a lot of mistakes.  However, I really don't think I was abusive or caused significant harm to anyone.  There were times I screamed at my ex and said mean things to him.  I know that is never good and I guess in a sense could be considered emotioanl abuse.  I didn't really attack him personally.  In the mixed of all that I told him he is a good father but he is allowing other people to harm girls.  I used to think it was his wife or his mother or something.  I really didn't think it was him.  I guess that's why I'm confused now.  The way the girls describe him..being harsh, sounding strict and mean tones in his voice etc.  is not the same person I was married to.  He was always so layed back and calm and quite.  I felt lonely with him, but he rarely ever got mad.  They sounded shocked when I said he was always layed back etc.
I'm very confused.  I don't think I know him like I thought I did.

[Freezer Burned]

Clare,

Ns get worse with time, that is one reason he is changing. Also, if one attempt to get all your attention on him doesn't work, he will try something else. Ns are not trying to get along WITH others, they are trying to get attention FROM others, and they will do anything to get it, even bizarre things. They just bait you for reactions, they are not trying to have a sensible conversation, that is why you feel confused. Ns are emotionally retarded, they stop maturing emotionally at a young age.

Don't try to make any sense of what he does - in the moment, mentally step away from his drama, and just observe, if he doesn't want to communicate, you probably can't make him. He is the one going bonkers, but he is trying to make you feel like you are the one who is. Later, you can come here and ask for help in making sense of that particular situation.

All that hoopla with conflicting schedules, he is triangulating you and the girls, causing confusion on purpose, all the more attention for him. The girls are old enough to make schedules with him on their own, there is no need for you and N to discuss it with each other, and the girls can let you know when they will need a car ride.

[Clare]

I didn't complete what I was trying to say earlier.  I had to run off to a meeting.

My point was that someone mentioned above is everyone saying the similar things about me?  This is confusing because I have 2 people in my life that are the same.  My mother was horrible to me as a child and she still is.  When she is horrible I walk away and always have the intention of never going back.  I have always craved and wanted a loving mom.  Sometimes she calls me and acts very nice and loving and concerned.  I always get sucked into that.  Then the craziness starts up again.  It is a terrible cycle.  Or she gets very sick and i help take care of her and then as soon as she's well the craziness starts again.  She has serious medical problems.

I am also getting all the craziness from my ex.  Then I question myself because my children's father is saying this and my mother is saying that.  Sometimes I just want to pack up my car and go far away and never come back.

I had one serious relationship after my divorce 10 years ago. That boyfriend was the same as my ex and my mother.  All 3 of them hated each other and all  3 of them insulted me, screamed at me, blamed me etc.  And all 3 of them can be very nice at times. 
I ended that relationship 7 years ago.  I have dated and met nice people since then, but I don't trust anyone. If they compliment me I just wait for the negative insults to come.  I couldn't do it and decided that I can't be in a relationship.   I have been too afraid to go through that crap again.  I also have special needs kids and can't be preoccupied with that drama.  I tend to pick out the same type of people.   Is that common?   I didn't mean to make a big deal out of the dating because that is not a priority.  However, I do feel all alone.   I have some very good friends but they have their families and their job and  I feel like they don't get it.  THey are supportive and try to encourage me but they don't get it.   The hardest part is that I wanted so bad to give my kdis a good healthy and normal life with two loving parents.  I never wanted them to experience what I had to.  My friends do not see anything wrong with me.   However, having mulitple people say that there is causes me to question it. 

[eyes_up]

"He started crying and said how mad my daughter hurt his feelings for changing plans.  He also said that he didn't like that the girls don't talk to him. " ~ Clare

Are you talking about an adult or a three year old here?

Clare, I am not going to dissect and reply to every thing you have said. All it requires is picking out this one item. The above behavior is over the top. First off, your X's feelings are his responsibility. ApPARENTly he does not understand that but you and your daughter CAN. Your daughters change of mind may be disappointing to her father BUT the disappointment is his and not her or your responsibility.

Once you understand what you are responsible for and not responsible for things will begin clear.

I see a huge list of manipulations in your post. this one I chose is just representative of all the others.

You will be provided with more response and some + more of your questions will be answered.

Welcome to WoN ... Take good care of you and your girls,

eyes_up

[betterdays]

Dear Clare,

I was the one who asked the question, is everyone saying this to you, or just N?  I did not mean to make you feel it is you. Please accept my apology, I have been as raw and confused as you many times.  When we come here we have our minds twisted and f^*ked, and I did not realize how it sounded to you.  I wrote quickly without explaining.

What I meant was this:  One way to know it's not us is to say, my mom, my H, and my boss or bf, they do these things and make me feel nuts, but do my true, true friends that don't know N or mom treat me like this?  Usually we have some N's who wreck our lives, and a group of people we love, who do not control us.  Those we choose, who do not trap us and cling, they reflect our caring, loving natures, and they may or may not understand the evil nature of N's. In any case, they do not exploit, gaslight, and abuse.  They do not make accusations.  Through them we see that we are not crazy or destructive.  We feel best with them.
 

Sometimes N's have driven away our healthy friends, and then you have to ask, did I have good, nurturing people in my life?  Usually there was some loving person we identified with, and that was where we learned to show our best, real selves.  That's what I mean.  If you only feel horrible around people who act like N's then it is not you.  If only N's tell you that you are the problem, it's not you.

There are lists of traits that tell you what exploiting, gaslighting, etc. mean, and they give examples.  Triangulation is what N's do to their kids, and it is the best way to get you, so that's why they do it.

I also feel that they act like playground bullies.  When they are caught or run out of tricks, they cry and beg, and promise anything.  My N showed different sides to most people he knows, and gives different versions of the same thing to many people.  You said you do not think you really knew your N.  That's exactly what most of us here have had to realize.  My N brought me red roses every week for the first four years of marriage, and we went to dinner every weekend with friends who adored him.  I was so proud of him, I picked out a beautiful love seat and chair for his office at school.  Guess what he was doing on that couch during the week, before he brought me my roses on Fridays?  I feel sick when I think about it even now.

Please know that everyone here has been through the wringer and come out alive.  Many of us are caught there for longer than we think we can stand.

It is not you , Clare.  It was never you.

[BlueSky]

I agree that N's cannot seem to deal with having a child with special needs as they can only focus on themselves.  My exN didn't seem the accept the dx of Asperger's Syndrome that was given to our son.  He didn't understand the symptoms - he just blamed me.  When he went to the third Dr. we consulted, rather than listening to the Dr. explain why he was giving the dx and discussing the symptoms and therapies, etc., exN and wife spent the majority of the session complaining about me.  The only reason we went to the third Dr. was because exN wasn't convinced about the same dx given by the first two Dr.'s.

exN walked out of our son's life 2 1/2 years ago.  My son sometimes misses him, but he is much more stable now that he doesn't travel between two houses. 

[Clare]

Betterdays, I knew what you were referring to so no apology's necessary.  I was just saying that I had also thought of that and saw that the only time I feel confused, hurt, angry, and crazy is when I am in contact with my mom, ex, and then I mentioned that one boyfriend.

When it comes to myself being manipulated I don't see it so clearly.  However, when someone hurts my child I get this intense radar inside me that drives me to stop at nothing to protect them.  I see what is happening very clearly when someone is manipulating them or hurting them.  That it was led me to leave that boyfriend of mine that I mentioned.  He emotionally abused me for a long time.  A few times he pushed me and grabbed me.  He would also push me against the wall and get in my face and threaten me.  That didn't make me leave him.  However, my oldest d who was 5 y/o at the time was crying at the top of the stairs and throwing a fit.  My bf threw a shoe up the stairs and hit her.  I turned into a crazy woman.  I told him to leave and to never come back and to never call me again.  He called all the time and I had my phone number changed. I never saw him again.
The girls spent the day with my mom last Wed.  My mom was going to take them swimming on Thurs...which is why they didn't want to go to their dads on Wed.  My mom was very mean to my youngest daughter.  D called me while I was at work crying.  It's a big long story, but I lost my tempter big time. I had a meeting at noon and was going to get them after meeting.  My mom called me over and over and over while I was in meeting.  I had my phone on silence.  She left me all these messages telling me I better pick up my little "brat" because she is not going to pay for her to swim and if she has to then I have to reimburse her because she's only going to pay for oldest d to swim etc.  When I left to go get girls she I finally answered phone and told her I was on my way to get both girls.  She got mad and said I was ruining oldest daughters day because youngest "brat" is spoiled.  I screamed louder than I've ever screamed before.  I felt such a rage of anger.  I told her that she will never talk to my children like that again and that I am done with her. I hung up and didn't answer anymore of her calls.  I walked in her house right past her and ignored her and got my kids.  My oldest daughter said that grandma told her that her sugar levels were so high that she should really go to the hospital but will take her swimming instead.  I told her that it is not safe to get into a car with her if sugar levels are off and we left.  I haven't spoken to my mom since.

I graduated college 3 years ago.  July of 07 was my last semester.  I worked my butt off working full time, going to school, and raising my kids.  My mom called my brother from another state and requested he send my nephews to visit.  I worked during the day, did my internship, and had night class 2 nights a week.  I had no money for childcare so I had to use my mom. If my mom was really bad I took the girls to class with me and kept crayons and stuff in my bag just in case.
Anyway, the 2nd week my nephews were here it was a nightmare.  I got out of class at 9:30 at night and went to pick up my kids from her house.  I showed up and my nephew was crying hysterically walking down the hallway with his big suitcase.  My kids and other nephew were sitting down in the back room.  My mom told my nephews to pack their bags and they can never come back again.  They were 9 and 8 y/o at that time. My kids were 9 and 7 at that time.  I had to pack up my car with their stuff and 4 kids to go home.  We get home around 10 and these kids never ate dinner.  They were starving.  I barely had enough food to feed my own kids.  I was a poor college student and single mom. I had work and school the next day and had no idea how I was going to find childcare for 4 kids.  There was no way I could take 4 of them with me.  I had a paper due the next day.  I scraped up food to feed them and consoled them as they were all devastated.  Then stayed up all night to write my paper.  I took them all with me to the university to turn in my paper and explain that I can't stay as I have 4 kids w/no childcare. 

I was so upset and so afraid that this was going to keep me from graduating.  I had one month left and I had to finish. I had to get a real job and be able to provide for my family.  My ex would never watch the kids for me while I was at school or work.  I had a friend who lived 45 min. away.  I live in a big metropolitan area.  He is a teacher and off in the summers.  I called him and he agreed to watch them for me.  I met him through another friend a year prior.  He was always just a friend...nothing more.  Anyway, he has twin boys.  I had food stamps but they didn't kick in for a few more days.  Once I got those I repaid him by buying him groceries since he had to feed 4 extra kids.
I called my brother and told him that he needed to come get the boys when he had some days off work.  I told him that I hated to do that but there is no way I can keep 4 kids the rest of the summer.  He understood.
He came within a week and got them.  My mom was mad at me for sending my nephews back to their state.  She was so mad that she didn't even come to my college graduation.

I was a stay at home mom when my ex left me. He immediately filed bankruptcy so all the bills were left in my name. He emptied the bank accounts.  I didn't have a job or child care and I had a 2 y/o and an infant at the time.  I couldn't afford to buy formula for my baby. I had to put her on regular milk.  My lights and water got shut off within a month or so of him leaving.  I had to call and beg him for food to feed the kids.  He would leave a paper sack of canned goods on my porch every so often.  I ate enough bites of the kids food to keep from starving...I know that sounds dramatic but it's the truth.  I had to save the food to make sure the kids were fed.  A while later my house was foreclosed on and my car was repossessed.
I did not qualify for W.I.C. or food stamps because I owned a house and car that was worth a certain amount.  It didn't matter that I couldn't make the payments and I was going to loose them. 

My only option was to go to school because I could get a financial aid check up front that would pay daycare and some bills.  I went to a trade school as I never thought I was smart enough for college.  I got a small 2 bedroom apt. It was not in a great area because I had bad credit after the bank took everything I owned. Once I was enrolled in school I was also able to get on the waiting list for day care assistance. Since my ex was involved with bankruptcy court the family court wouldn't interfere and make him pay til that was finalized.

I made straight A's in my trade school.  I finished top of my class.  I got a job at Target.  During all this my ex told me I was selfish to go to school and take time away from the kids.  HE also told me that there was no way I could work, go to school, and be a mom.  If I dared ask him for money he told me that since I can't financially support kids then I should give the kids to him.
My mother told me that I am not college material and should find a nice receptionist job somewhere.

I decided that I am college material and I am going to college.  After finishing trade school I enrolled at the University and got a job on campus.  I used my financial aid checks to help with bills.  I never bought books because I needed the money to live on.  College text books were way too expensive.
When my oldest d started kindergarten I got a job as a teachers aid at her school and went to school in the evenings.  I did that for 6 years. I never knew how I was going to survive each month of those 6 years, but I did.

I got my bach. degree in Social Work.  I still don't make a lot of money but we make enough to live nicely. 

In the middle of all that my daughter was dx'd with PDD NOS and my youngest is severely dyslexic.  I drove all over the place to get them help.  I spent money on therapy's that I didn't have and tutoring etc.  The school system would not provide services.  One teacher was mean to my daughter.  She would wad up her papers and throw them in the trash in front of the class if she didn't do the work correctly.

Everything has been such a battle for me since he left. I have done nothing but fight and struggle to survive.  I made a lot of mistakes.  I would get stressed and yell at the kids or let my house look like a tornado.  I turned in assignments late and even failed tests.  I am also dyslexic and had to go to a lot of tutoring myself.

I am far from perfect and know that I need to work on myself and be a better person.  I tend to take on too much and then get irritable.  I know that I did the best I could to provide a good life for my kids.  All I wanted was for my ex and my mom to show me some respect and see that I am a good mom.  I want them to acknowledge my hard work and not put me down all the time.

I've been chasing after their approval for so long and I am starting to realize that I will never have their approval.  It doesn't matter what I do or what I say it will never be enough for them.

I don't blame anyone for not wanting to read all that.  I wrote a book here.  I guess I needed to unload.

I fought the school system for a long time.  I finally took my kids out and moved them to a charter school.  I wrote letters to the state representatives, autism counsel, the teachers administration etc.  and told them what my children went through at school etc.

I was surprised that they all responded.  I have been asked to testify at a hearing coming up this fall in the city capital for an organization that is working to hold the school districts accountable.  They want me to tell my story regarding what my kids went through.  I have agreed to do that.  I feel honored and hope I can be a part of some positive change. 

[LettingGo]

Clare, that was great, keep Writing It Out to Get It Out. I bet that felt real good for you!

I've been chasing after their approval for so long and I am starting to realize that I will never have their approval.  It doesn't matter what I do or what I say it will never be enough for them. ~C

This is one of those enlightenment statements. Write it on a piece of paper and read it every day. Ns feel their best when we are at our worst, so it is against their nature to let others feel good or uplift others without a hidden agenda. When they do something nice it is only a illusion because they do not do it with pure intentions. They do it for leverage in order to get something from us at a later date, so what they do for us is really about doing for them.

Wow Lady you have so much strength to accomplish so much w/Ns in your life weighing you down and trying to sabotage you. When you get rid of those toxic weights the sky is the limit!

When it comes to myself being manipulated I don't see it so clearly.  However, when someone hurts my child I get this intense radar inside me that drives me to stop at nothing to protect them.  I see what is happening very clearly when someone is manipulating them or hurting them.~C

I am the same way, then I realized that the Momster was toxic not just to me but to my D too because she had to watch an unhealthy relationship between me and the Momster and I did not want this to be her stand of normal. We become a walking contradiction to our children when we say that it is not right for people to treat us terrible and hurt us, then continue to have a relationship with them. That is setting our children up for failure in that they will repeat the pattern they have grown up with and not leave toxic relationships. I want a better life for my child, so it begins w/modeling a better life for myself which means creating a N free zone. I thought I was SuperWoman and could be strong enough to handle the N bullets from the Momster. I had processed all the abuse from childhood, established strong boundaries and could walk away from the Momster when I needed to when she started w/her wicked attacks. However, something changed in me when I became a Mom. As a child I became accustomed to the Momster's attacks, and dangerously desensitized, numb and dumb because I just accepted that is how she is always going to be and there is nothing I can do about it. Then when I became a Mom I saw her as person who was blessed with 3   that she does not treasure but torture for her enjoyment. What kind of Mother does that?   Then I realized a real Authentic Mother is not evil only a Counterfeit one. She has never been a Mother to me, not in any small sense of the word. How she destroyed her children's self-esteem and actually enjoyed causing them pain -- that is evil in the disguise of the role of Mother. I realized that I meant nothing to her, especially since I have not been a good source of NS for her for years. However, most importantly I realized that this person who I called Mom is a person who I do not like, am disgusted by her and do not want to be around, so why torture myself or my family, what is the purpose in that? All the time I spent dealing w/her toxic mess I reinvested into discovering what Authentic Love sounds like, looks like and behaves and have established relationships that reciprocate love instead of mutual disgust. I have redefined the definition of Family and have found my Land of Love  

[eyes_up]

Clare, It is really horrible for children to process the abuse of their parent.

I recall as a child, as much as my mother worked in and around the abuse of my father towards us kids ... she was unable to save us  and on top of that, we , me and brother, had to live experiencing our father abusing our mother completely.

Something important to know is that children, very young children like 3 - 4 yo do know when abuse is happening, it is felt. I knew and very often I would attempt protecting my mother.


Although it is important for a parent to protect their offspring it is also important the parent to also take care of herself.

The abuse from father did not end until she divorced him and he declined on visitation. Thank Goodness.

Consider holding the same boundary you do with your children for your own inner child.
It is no fun at all watching daddy abuse mommy and then mommy having to raise the mark for the children. It really is like saying do as I say and not as I do.

Actually , I don't know what is worst ... watching some one get abused or being abused. It all stinks. It is all sick. There is another way to exist.

(((hugs)))

eyes

[Clare]

My grandmother lived near by for a large portion of my childhood.  She now says that my mom is just like her father. At the time my grandmother knew my mom had issues but didn't know everything that went on.  I never told her and don't know why I didn't.  I remember thinking she knew.

Anyway, my grandmother was a very strong woman and she sent my grandfather to the curb.  When I lived near her she would buy me clothes.  She would also spend time with me and talk to me etc. She and I were always very close.  She knew my home life wasn't great but didn't know it was as bad as it was.  Anyway, she would tell me that I have the power to make things different once I become an adult.  She would count down with me...at 15 y/o she'd tell me only 3 more years. 

She always encouraged me and taught me to "pick myself up by the boot straps".   When I'm in a crisis situation I always think about what she would say and I stop and come up with a plan to get out of my situation.

I know that I only survived because of her. 

Now I want to do more than survive.  I want happiness and peace.  I do want to end my relationship with my mom but am afraid to be alone.

Anyway, I am not sure what to do with my ex.
Do I call him and find out what his intentions are with the girls?  The girls are asking about him and want to talk to him.  Do I let them?  Do I trust him to visit the girls?  If I shoudl end all ties then what do I say to the girls?  I am so afraid of doing the wrong thing and causing the girls more pain.

[LettingGo]

What an amazing Woman you are Clare. I am so glad I have met you here @ WoN. It is very interesting to me how the lives of Adult Children of Nparents parallel each other. I could have written exactly what you just said. When I told my grandmother, and the Momsters two former friends who were like Sisters to her and Aunts to us girls, how the Momster verbally, emotionally, and physically abused us they never knew it was that bad. They all said, Sorry I never knew. They knew the Momster talked harshly to us, but never knew what we endured behind closed doors. Of course, like you, I thought how could you not know, but they didn't know the extent of the abuse and I believe that because know one wants to accept the truth that their friend is an evil person who enjoys hurting their children.

Now I want to do more than survive.  I want happiness and peace.  I do want to end my relationship with my mom but am afraid to be alone.~C

I had that same fear. I let go of the MonsterDad years ago, and if I let go of the Momster then I would have no parent at all. I had to make the choice between no parents and an extremely toxic parent -- and you know which choice I made. That choice became even more difficult when I realized that my Sibs were lower level N and were toxic to me too. One Sib abandoned me during to very scary situations in my life where I asked her to be by my side -- talk about facing your greatest fear of abandonment. She ripped out my heart when I realized that our relationship, like the one with the Momster, was only an illusion, and she didn't really care about me as a person just someone to use when she needed something. We all like to be needed, but when a N does it they do not appreciate nor value you just what you do for them. So this year I had to Let Go of an entire NFOO and that was extremely painful but not impossible. I no longer waste my time w/people who are toxic and just want to use me. Instead I cherish the Authentic Friends I have met and guess what I had a mini emergency, and I had to rush to the dentist and my Friend came over to watch my D for me. I did not have to convince her to help me or kiss her @$$ to do it or wait forever for her to arrive. She came over right away. It was hard for me to ask. I am not one who can easily ask help from others, but God is teaching me. I would rather have one Authentic Friend then a family full of Ns, or 50 Counterfeit Friends.

Do I call him and find out what his intentions are with the girls?
Yes. Treat him like friend of theirs called. Ask for clarification when did he want the girls to come over and you choose how long the girls can stay. If he has a tantrum because he can't have his way, treat him like you would a Toddler, I know you would like to spend more time w/the girls and the girls would like to spend time w/you but they have to go to (what ever reason you can come up w/prior engagement)

The girls are asking about him and want to talk to him.  Do I let them?
Yes. Before you let them talk to him discuss w/the girls what all of you feel comfortable with doing in regards to the girls going over there and for how long, if things start going bad have a code word that the girls can say to you when they call you and you will know that you need to pick them up. Talk w/them about setting boundaries for themselves so that if things start to go bad they don't hesitate to call you.  

Do I trust him to visit the girls?  
I do not know your custody arrangement, but your girls are of the age they must make that decision for themselves. You can discuss your concerns w/the girls and encourage them to express their feelings. As you know, it is one thing to know your parent is hurtful and something else to cut them out of your life forever.

If I shoudl end all ties then what do I say to the girls?  
This is an option you should discuss w/the girls w/a Counselor who has experience w/Ns. It must be a decision you all agree upon. If the Counselor agrees it is in the best interest of the girls to have NC w/him then the Counselor can help you get there with the girls. As long as the girls know your reasons they do not have to fully understand nor agree with your reasons -- someday they will understand.

I am so afraid of doing the wrong thing and causing the girls more pain.
Trust your instinct. You got rid of the abusive N boyfriend so you know what you need to do for you and the girls. Ns are toxic and your girls don't need to be around them, but to just go NC w/out letting the girls be apart of the decision can be damaging to them. If you believe the girls are in immediate danger then you must protect them regardless of they understand fully right now. If their Dad is mean to them this time then you can discuss how he is hurtful w/your girls and the Counselor and all of you come up with a plan.

[Clare]

I am afraid to make the decision for them.  I know in my case it has taken me many many years to finally walk away from my mom.  In a way it's good that it will be my decision.  However, if it was not my decision would I have been spared all that turmoil?
Also, my oldest daughter does not communicate her feelings.  She told me that there are things that go on at her dad's house that she does not like, but she will never tell them to me.  She's too afraid I will tell her dad and then her dad will confront her.
My youngest daughter has called me crying and asked me to pick her up from her dads and I did.  However, my older daughter will not come with me until their planned day to come home comes.  I don't know if she really wants to stay or is she afraid to tell her dad she wants to come home?

She doesn't open up to me or her counselor and so no one knows where she stands or what she thinks or anything.  She's a sad girl and has some anger, but don't know why or what to do.

She's going to start social skills classes soon and she's in counseling.  Part of me thinks I should keep them away from their dad until I can get enough counseling in her to hopefully get her to open up.  My concern is her inability to stand up for herself and to tell when something is wrong.
I hope the social skills will also help her communicate with others too.  She is the one that is under the autism spectrum. SHe's high functioning and is verbal.

[RB22]

Clare,

  to WoN.

I also married a N, who divorced me for his soulmate...I spent 18 years thinking it was me.  he married his soul mate... also a N.  I have 4 Ds with this man. He has 50 percent custody.

My X and his wife have performed horrible manipulations on my girls.  So much so that for a couple of years, my middle child, (then about your D's ages) would call her dad to remind him to call the older girls... so they would know he cared.   When he refused to walk across the football field on his daughters senior night UNLESS his wife accompanied him... my 2 eldest stopped talking to him.  1 broke just before thanksgiving, the other just before christmas.  For Christmas they gave the 2 girls who regularly visit $100 each, the one who made up by thanksgiving $60 and the one who started talking to him just before christmas.... NOTHING.  She went and sat there while everyone opened their cards and gifts.... and she got nothing.  The following year the division was similar... only difference was she got a beach towel that he scored for FREE at a conference he attended.

He mailed all sorts of apologies to the girls ... they all started with "I am sorry for what happened senior night, BUT it wouldn't have had to happen if YOU....." the other part of the letter was "I am sorry my being unhappily married to your mother affected you so." 

He even cried when he talked to the other 2 about his decision to NOT attend... how upset he was because the 2 oldest didn't invite mrsx... after all she has done for them.  She supports him cause all his money goes to me... so any nice things they have at his house are because of mrsx.  Blah Blah Blah.....the younger 2 felt responsible for his relationship with his elder d's.  So they badgered the other 2 to death... good thing we had therapy and they knew, know that they are dealing with.... ///

The best thing I ever did was to get my kids into counseling...(me too, cause the counselors helped me to help my kids)  I learned subtle ways to teach my kids how to NOT take responsibility for their dad... and a lot of that is age related... so don't give up yet. OK? 

Number one.... validate their feelings, their version of the truth.  Ask them what did they see?  What do they think those people are feeling...(can be anybody... even the bad tempered neighbor)  Why do you think they did what they did?  ASk them what they would do in a similar situation.... then tell them what YOU might be likely to do in the same situation. 

It was suggested to me... do this with a bunch of people so when you start to do it with dad.... they won't think twice about it.   it was also suggested (since I think I am raising a narc)  That I ask her what her reactions would be.... and tell her mine... then explain the motivations behind them. 

This does ALOT for kids... 1 it role plays situations without ever having to be in that situation.  2. It verifies to them that their reaction is normal... cause you would do the same thing in that situation... or  it gives them something to think about .. while teaching them to LOOK a BIT further into the future. Something kids NEED to be taught... they don't always look past the immediate stuff.

Teaching a kid that they are normal is HUGE.... just HUGE.

The best thing I can do for my kids is to teach them exactly how normal people behave and what society thinks is normal.... they will come to their own conclusions that HE is NOT NORMAL.  I don't have to say a thing against him.... They love him... and that is ok.  His actions toward them speak volumes also.  It took a few years but they are seeing it... 17 seems to be the age of realizing normal doesn't exist with dad...

when he tells them what they are doing to hurt him.... I remind them that they didn't set out with the intent to hurt him.... they just wanted to do something as friends...

I hope I am making sense... it is late and I am tired...

will post more tomorrow

Hugs,

RB

[Clare]

That makes sense.  When your kids were younger did you let him take the kids alone?  I don't know if my ex even really wants to take them after what he said. Although, I'm sure it's his way to manipulate them into doing and saying what he wants them to.

I think the other barrier to my oldest not being as open with me as I'd like her to be is my mother.

My mother seems to think she can manipulate my oldest daughter to be against me easier than my youngest daughter.  My mother told my oldest daughter that there is something wrong with me and I'm not right in the head.  She also told oldest D that she cannot trust me or talk to me because I tell everyone what she says.  My mother told her that she can trust her and tell her anything.  My mom said she wanted my daughter to know that she does have someone to go to and it's her.

The only reason I know that is because my youngest D over heard those conversations and told me.  I have no idea what was said to my oldest D in private.

My kids have their father and grandmother telling them bad stuff about me.

I've talked to older D and told her that grandma has problems and that she says things that are not true.  My oldest D says that she doesn't pay any attention to grandma says to her anyway.  I don't think she's lying but I think it effects her more than she thinks.

Sometimes I think my oldest is a N too but then don't know if it's the pdd diagnosis that gives her symptoms like that.  My oldest D has never shown empathy for anyone.  PDD is under the autism spectrucm and I know they aren't capable of that either...so I don't know the reason for her lack of empathy.

We can watch sad movies like Marley and Me...and my youngest D and me are crying at the end.  My oldest is not crying and wondering why we are.  I've never seen her cry at a movie or sad news or anything.  She's also a very angry child.  I've taken her to counseling off and on since she was 4 years old and she's never opened up to a counselor.  The longest she went to one counselor was 2 1/2 years. 

She's starting social skills counseling in September so I'm hoping I will see a difference when she does that.  She also does not understand non-literal language or body language etc.

Can kids learn N behavior if they are around it enough?  She's never been a loving child.  Even as an infant she didn't like being touched and held much.  She didn't go through separation anxiety until she was 5 and 6 y/o.
I used to think she just didn't bond with me for some reason.  All the other kids cried when their moms left them at daycare and oldest D never even looked back at me.  Then in kindergarten and 1st grade the teachers had to pry her off of me to get her in the class room. It seems like she was just delayed in that area.

Everything she gets upset about is regarding things that effect her.  I keep telling her to think about other people and she says she does but I don't see it.

I hope it's the pdd and not N. 

[Clare]

My ex has not made contact with me since he caused that big scene with my daughters.

He sent me a text today that said this, "Can you tell the girls that their cousins will be here tonight? If they want I can come pick them up."

I said the following, "I want the girls to have some counseling before resuming visits. I have serious concerns regarding your behavior."

He responded with this, "I think it should be the girls choice, not yours."

I wrote, "I have made the decision".

Before I wrote my last response I saw that he sent my oldest D the following e-mail, "I sent your mom a text message.  I asked her to tell you that your cousins are coming over tonight.  I also asked that she ask if you want to come over too and I will come pick you up.
 
She said she wants you to have counseling before you see me again. She has serious concerns regarding my behavior. "

Did I do the right thing?
I forwarded that e-mail to my e-mail so I have record of it and I deleted it from daughters so she wouldn't see it right now.

I think I already explained my reasoning but just to clear it up.  My oldest daughter does not stand up for herself, express her feelings, or open up to anyone.  She also told me that there are things that go on at her dad's house that she doesn't like but she will not tell me what they are because she's afraid I will tell her dad.

My youngest daughter is much more open with me but I think she's been so manipulated that she doesn't even realize that there is something wrong.  She says she doesn't like it at dads house but she can't explain the reasons to me.  I know what she means as her dad and my mom are very difficult to explain....especially for a kid.

I want my girls to fully understand that this is THEIR DAD'S AND GRANDMOTHER'S PROBLEM AND NOT THEIRS.  I also want them to be able to open up and tell someone their feelings and what hurts them etc. to someone.  If not me then their counselor or someone.  I also want them to be able to protect themselves and stand up for themselves when needed and feel completely confident that they are not the problem.

I don't want them growing up like I did having all these self doubts and feeling responsible for other's problems and feelings etc.  That stuff screwed with my head so much and continues to do so.  This has to stop and it has to stop now. 
I want all 3 of us to have a clear head and get the craziness out.
I believe that if they have no contact with their dad and grandmother and work with the therapist then they can sort that stuff out.  Then if they want contact I will allow it but they will continue counseling and I can monitor them.  If they regress or have trouble coping we can re-evaluate the visitation again.

In addition to my ex and mother making them feel guilty and responsible for their feelings...my ex and mother are saying bad things about me and interfering with my relationship with them.
They have not damaged my relationship with my daughters but they are putting doubt in my kids minds and causing confusion. 
I am concerned that could be effecting our relationship and could eventually damage it.  I want my kids to know that I am someone they can count on, trust, and provide unconditional love forever.
My oldest daughter has anger issues, self esteem issues, in addition to her already developmental delays with the pdd.
My oldest daughter threatened suicide a month or so ago.  She is taking medication, seeing a psychiatrist, and a counselor.  I feel that sending her to her dads and my mom's could effect her mental health too.

That is not the first time she has threatened suicide so it's not new.  The first time she made the threat she was 5 years old.  It's been off and on since then.  I put her in therapy and sent her to a psych before but my ex told me that he thinks I emotionally abuse D like I did him and that causes her problems.

I have yelled at my daughter, screamed at her, said things out of anger to her, and thought that maybe I am the problem.  I went to counseling and tried to work on me...but she still is doing this.
There is no excuse for me lashing out on my daughter, but I have always apologized to her after I knew I was out of line.  I get so tense, irritable, and stressed and do tend to yell too much.  My D has told me she hates it when I yell.

I know that the biggest source of stress is my ex and mother.  I must eliminate that from my life so I can be who my kids need me to be.  I know I offer them plenty of love, attention, and my time.  However, I have to stop yelling and get myself to a peaceful place. 

I know that my yelling does escalate things with my oldest D. She then mimics me and yells when she's stressed and tense or frustrated.  I can't help them cope if I'm not coping well either.
I am fighting the temptations to contact my mom and reminding myself that is not good for me and I have to take care of myself and my daughters.

I have been tempted to call my mom.  I want to call her and tell her what my ex did.  I also went on a job interview on Tues.  I want to tell her about that.  I know I will not get the response I need from her anyway.  I always call her and then shortly after talking to her I regret calling her.  I am reminding myself of that.
Instead I called friends and told them the news that I wanted to share with my mom.  It doesn't take away that need I have to go to my mom, but at least I was able to tell someone and I got positive responses and I got support.
The girls also mimic that part of me.  When something happens in my life I always want to call and tell someone...whether it's good or bad.  They want to call and tell their dad and grandmother things too.  They also don't get the response they are looking for.  I am encouraging them to tell my friends, call my grandmother, tell their friends, write it in the journal etc.


I have an extremely stressful job. I am an investigator for child protective services.  I am on the verge of quitting even though I don't have another job.  I have 6 weeks of vacation time built up so I would get a paid for all that upon quitting and still survive for about 2 months w/o a job.

I really feel like I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown.  I've never felt this way before.  I am not sleeping at night, can't eat, and I can't get anything accomplished.  I just want to cry and scream at the same time. I'm really trying to hide it in front of my kids and it's coming out in other ways.  I'm irritable, short tempered, and as a result I'm snapping at them and I feel like I'm about to explode.

I too have trouble expressing my feelings to others.  I love my friends to death and they are my biggest support.  However, they are tired of me cycling back and forth with my mom.  They don't understand it and just think it should be a simple solution of eliminating her from my life.  They don't understand why I go back.  They don't understand my confusion and my anxiety because to them it's so obvious that they are the problem.

I didn't have the courage to tell my counselor last week that I am on the verge of a break down.  I masked it during my hour session.  I am extremely uncomfortable crying in front of people and making myself vulnerable to others.  I am so afraid of doing that even with my counselor who I feel very safe with.
I'm afraid of being judged and don't want others to think I'm crazy.  I also like to appear like I'm okay and have everything together.
Then I loose it at home.
I do have positive times with my kids...don't get me wrong.  The problem is when the kids fight with each other, or they argue with me or they don't do what I say etc.  Those things I can't handle right now and I start yelling and over-reacting and upset them.

Anyway, I went on that job interview.  I have also applied for other jobs.  I just feel like I can't take this job another day.  I am so behind on my cases and can't even focus on them long enough to accomplish anything.
I have never quit another job without one lined up so I'm so afraid to do that.  I am also afraid of really loosing my mind and needing to be committed to a hospital.  Everything has fallen on me at once.  My finances are a mess.  I have spent so many years running around trying to help everyone else and I ignored myself.  Now, I am about to loose it.
Just in the 1 week of no contact with ex N and N mother I organized my bills and got them paid including back pay to catch them up.
I've organized my house.
When I'm very upset I try to improve things in my life to improve me.  This time it's not working.  I do feel better that my bills are paid for the month of August.  I get paid once a month. I got paid yesterday and have all my bills taken care of for August.
That's one less thing for me to worry about.  Groceries, gas, and such will be tight but I have enough to cover that.

Anyway, Friday I was very tempted to write up my 2 week notice.  I decided to wait and think about it over the weekend.  I would totally just take time off, but because my cases are so behind they will not let me take time off until I catch up.  I can't focus and I can't sleep.  I've been falling asleep around 3 or 4 a.m...if I sleep.  Then I oversleep in the morning and then I'm late and get to work and feel like I'm going to break.  I can't stop thinking about my life and my ex and my  mom and I feel so alone.

I feel like I have to be strong and I have to be positive and happy for the girls.  I have been through so much in my life and I've overcome all of it.  I was blessed to have my grandmother and keep her words of encouragement in my head and was able to have incredible strength to accomplish the things I was able to accomplish.

I don't know if I've reached my limit or what, but I really feel for the first time ever in my life that I can't do it anymore.  I'm not talking about anything crazy or drastic.  I'm just saying I need a break from it all.  I need down time, quiet time to get myself rejuvinated.
I believe I can find a job within a month or so and be okay. But I don't know what I'd do if I don't find one. 
I will find out tomorrow if I get the job I interviewed for.  I don't want to do my 2 weeks notice and start working again.  I need at least 2 weeks of down time before working.  I don't know that new job will let me wait 4 weeks to start....working my 2 weeks notice and then 2 weeks off.

[betterdays]

Clare,

You sound remarkably able to prioritize and see what is best for your children. For what it's worth, here are I  the issues that I would attack, in this order:

1.   I hear you loud and clear about reducing your stress, and when NMIL was hurting my child, I cut contact.  It really helped us all. Do you need to be in touch with your mother for physical needs, such as babysitting? If so, maybe you can make arrangements elsewhere if possible, tell her she is hurting you and the kids, and you are not going to be in touch with her for X period of time, and maybe never, if she doesn't do the right thing.  Or just say you are secluding the kids for a cooling down time, since family contact is so difficult.  You will know the right words to say better than I.

As your stress level goes down, your yelling will, too.  Explain this to your D.  She is bottled up, but not unable to hear this.

Have you read Temple Grandin's books?  There is a movie about her that is on t.v. and available to rent.  Just my opinion, it might be great to watch with D.  The mother was very loving, and it showed how her mom helped Temple even when she could not touch her or relate verbally with her.  It was a good presentation of the mother, even though she and Temple were very different people.

I also saw a clip of an Asperger-affected young person, I think on public t.v., and it showed where their eyes are in a conversation.  It is always on a light, or where the motion is, never on the other person's eyes or mouth, where many cues come from.  Maybe you already saw it, but the gist of it was that through role playing and careful training, kids can learn what signals are there.  Then they have to learn what the proper response is, or could be.

2.  You need the job, and you have vacation accrued. If you cannot talk with your supervisor and use the time, why not try for a medical leave for a month, or whatever length of time you need?  A state job is great security in this economy, and maybe they will give you a stress disability leave for a while. At any rate, I would not quit until you know for sure that you have the new one.

3.  You have stood up for your D to N, and do not ever stop.  You can be covert, tell him you want visitation when she's ready, and then use all your resources to get her to open up to a counselor, and state your concerns and feelings that something might be detrimental to her there. In other words, tell N she's coming along, but it may take a while.  The fact that she is or was suicidal needs to be made clear, and your feelings of mistrust in what happens at N's house.

You sound like a very good mother, and even good mothers make mistakes.  Yours do not really rank up there with destroying the child's voice and self image.  Just keep trying, none of us really have any other option.  This child needs you, and your employer ought to listen.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Clare,

I have a question about your comment that XN TMd you that cousins would be there and could he pick them up: 

If you share custody, was that your time or his time?  If it was your time, there's no obligation to even reply to his message. 

With this kind of continuing communication he's using you as an intermediary to convey messages to them, instead of telling them himself.  This keeps you engaged, ensnared, triangulated with them.

NewWings4MeNow

[CZBZ]

I haven't read the entire thread but wanted to reply to this comment, clare: ""I want the girls to have some counseling before resuming visits. I have serious concerns regarding your behavior.""

If you can word things in a way that doesn't question his character, behavior, thoughts, etc., you will get much further with your goals. If you are worried about your daughter's welfare and want your husband to support you with therapy, then say you want the girls to have some counseling because they are having problems adjusting to the 'change'. This way, you share responsibility too and you aren't attacking his 'sense of self'.

Does this make sense? Sometimes we WANT to attack these jerks (who wouldn't) so always always consider your goal and then be creative about achieving that. A narcissist will insist on proving he is perfect or he will, as your husband did, turn to the children to tell him he's a good guy and Mom's a critical nag who is refusing them their right to be with Dad. We have some excellent threads in The Duck Pond on 'TRIANGULATION" if you are unfamiliar with this term. Learn as MUCH As you can today because narcissists LIVE in the drama triangle.


Hugs,
CZ

[RB22]

CZ is right, making the emails about the girls...not about him... stands up well in court.  What it shows is a mother concerned about her kids, and a dad (unless he goes along with mom)  concerned only for HIS time and himself.... not about what is right for the kids.

Hugs,

RB

[Clare]

I have not told him about the suicide threats made by D.  The reason is that I used to tell him those things and he blamed it on me and made things worse.  This time I decided to leave him out of it.

To my knowledge he just started telling the girls everything I say within the last year.  My therapist thinks it's because of the girls age.  She said sometimes parents will think the kids are older than they are and able to handle adult conversations.

Also, this weekend is legally my weekend to have the girls.  I normally am flexible though and if things come up I let him have time with them during my time.  Although, he says I'm not flexible and never give him extra time.

I believe he wants them to come so he could put on a show for his family.  His sister lives out of state and she's coming in with her kids.  If they weren't in town I don't think he would have contacted me.

The reason I responded was because I didn't want him to just show up at my house.  He has done that before.

I understand what your saying about my mom.  However, I know her very well and she will not ever change.  She will never take responsibility for her behavior and will never admit she's done anything wrong.  She says things in a very nice way and then if it doesn't work she will say and do to make it cut to the bone.
I have told her things that she's done that I don't like.  Her response is "you are way too sensitive" and/or "you really need to continue with your counseling" etc.   She has also called me dramatic and a drama queen.  Or she'll say she's just giving constructive criticism because she loves me and cares about me.  There is no way around her.

I agree with your opinion on my response to my ex.  I waited a little while to respond.  I tried to think of a non-threatening way to respond.  I tried to use "I" statements...like I want the girls to go to counseling etc.  I wasn't intending to be confrontational by saying I was concerned about his behavior.  I was trying to get him to see how his behavior hurt the girls and they need some therapy etc.
I'm going to have to read more about N's.

[Clare]

I have heard of the Temple Graden movie.  I looked around about a week or two ago and it's not available until August.  However, I only looked and purchase so maybe it is available to rent.  I'll check that out.

There is no way I can get time off right now.  I took almost 2 months off starting in November.  An intruder broke into my mom's house and nearly beat her to death.  She was in the hospital for nearly 2 months.  I was on FMLA.  I had about 2 months of sick leave so I used that and didn't have to use my vacation time.  I'm currently building my sick leave back up.  I only have 10 days sick leave built up since then.  I earn 8 hours sick leave per month and then we get a bonus sick day every so often if we don't use sick days.

I know that quitting w/o another job is a bad idea. I'm going to think positive that I will get the job I applied for.  It's still a state job just a different agency.  My time and leave will transfer over.  If I get the new job maybe I will feel relief as it's a much lower stress job.  It's busy but less stress.  I can see if I can start in 3 weeks and do my 2 weeks notice and have 1 week off in between.  Or I could work a lot of over time in one week and get my cases closed out and use my 2nd week of my notice to have a week off.  The main thing is that my current job will want me to have my cases closed or ready to be closed so others wont have to take on my cases in addition to their own.

I know this sounds really crazy.  I have always been a skeptic of ghosts and such.  However, the house we live in feels like it's being haunted. It's felt like that since we moved in about 6 months ago.  My oldest D experiences it more than I do and she's too afraid to go in her room.  She hasn't slept in her room for months.  Something turns her lights off and on, her radio off and on, rows of her blinds open by themselves etc.  Crayons fall off her book shelf and doors open and close and we can hear foot steps etc.  We also feel stuff sit on the couch or bed and sometimes we just get a feeling of un-easiness.
This is also causing us stress.