Recovery: spouses of narcs vs. ACONs

[zero]

So I've been wondering lately, is it typical for children of Ns to have a somewhat easier detachment from their pareNt than for the people who have the N as a spouse (especially if that person had kids with them already)?

It's always perplexing to me how my mom repeatedly goes out of her way to defend my Ndad even though she has known him so much longer than I have and has also gotten much more abuse from him over time IMO.  Meanwhile I first learned of pathological narcissism not even two years ago and ever since then my life has started to make sense so much more and the pieces have been falling into place for me like a game of Tetris.. However I think the biggest hangups my mom would have that aren't there for me is that she had 2 kids (me and my brother the braiNwashed golden child) with him already and feels the obligation to set some kind of example for us, and also it would be much more embarrasing for her to admit his narcissism because she CHOSE to be with him at some point whereas I was only thrust into his life by complete chance and against my will.

[CZBZ]

Interesting question, Zero. I can't wait to read member's ideas and thoughts about your question.

One thing I have come to grips with is: socialization. We aren't aware that we're being socialized by our culture (or should I use the term: enculturated?), but we are. Our social programming goes all the way to the core of our identity and most people have no need to even question their beliefs and assumptions.

Women's relationship to men has changed drastically. Not fast enough, some people say; and others think it's moved too quickly for men to keep up. I consider my mother's gender socialization and how she was trained to believe she needed a man in her life to prove her worth. Gender relationships changed with my generation but not as much as they've changed with yours. Women today, from my vantage point, are not obligated to 'snag' a man or even stay with him if he's abusive. This is new and healthy thinking and I'm all for it! When i talk with young women today though, they assume this is how it's always been. They wonder what's up with their ditzy mother who doesn't feel like she has a 'self' unless her husband is happy. Well, they weren't raised with the same 'programming' she was.

And absolutely---gender programming has oppressed women, especially those who ended up with abusive men yet still felt obligated (we were counseled to stay even in an abusive marriage) to stick it out with him.

It's one thing to consider...certainly not the whole truth of course. But I like to factor in Gender Socialization whenever i can.  


Hugs,
CZ

[betterdays]

My d asked HOW I could have picked a slimebag like N.  I showed her pics of us when we were young, and described how much fun N was, how smart, ambitious, and sweet to me he was.  I told her it was easy to fall in love with him.  Her comment was "Well, I never fell for anything about him."

It seems to have loved a false front is to harbor some feeling of a shared past, at least, even when the love is gone.  You nailed it, Zero, when you said you were thrust in the R without having a say.  Maybe that's why the kids want to cut ties so often--they never experienced the N's lies as reality.

[JennyWren]

I completely agree with you Betterdays. And this is an area I am still exploring with my daughters (11 and 14). They tell me that they not only do not miss their Dad now he has left...but actually think life is much better. I don`t know why I have such a problem getting my head round this....because the house has a wonderful calm atmosphere now. And the conflict is limited to sibling squabbling, which has also dramatically reduced.

I think muddled in my head somewhere is the thought that I have let them down by their father being so worthless to them. I certainly get the feeling that they are much more clear-headed about their fathers N-ness than I am. In fact, my eldest daughter`s almost violent anger at being told her Dad was not leavinng after all at one point, was what first got me really thinking about the way I had accepted blame for everything that had gone wrong in the relationship. My d was very clear about what she thought, though she had never verbalised it, hence the anger. Slowly but surely she became able to express her instincts, which helped her.

But I am ashamed to say that I am still playing catch-up. With the 11 year old as well. And Zero, frankly I do feel embarrassed I suppose....no...more regretful than embarrassed...that I CHOSE a relationship with a man who has been such a hopeless father. I am really glad you can see through your Ndad so clearly. You didn`t chose this situation, but as you have found yourself stuck with it...at least you have a clear understanding.

[May]

For me personaly, it wasn't easy to detach from nfoo. I think it was because I have no one on my side of the family who has left the kon. Just me. Now, I miss the kids but that's about it. I don't miss the nfoo anymore(or the illusion) and am fine that they are not a part of my life anymore.

[betterdays]

Jenny, it is exactly the same with my d as with yours when she found out your N would not leave.  M d became more and more depressed every time I found a house to rent, and couldn't because I did not earn enough.  I, too, became embarrassed at having married N, and felt d was too judgmental.  Our house is so quiet and normal, other kids come here to hang out in the evenings and on weekends.  Our problems now are in the league of when the dog wants to walk too early in the morning, or when we run out of milk.

May, you sound incredibly strong. I hope my d stays free of regrets, like you.

[bellelang83]

I have to agree with your daughter betterdays. I feel like I never really fell for my NM's false ego and every now and then when she would get particularly vicious and her mask would come off (for no reason, maybe she needed a breather that day) I would silently acknowledge to myself 'ah, there you are... just as I remember you to be.' With my father, I know she wore her mask even less, but in the early days, he must have been charmed by her spell, until they got married he said. Anyhows, the point you made Zero about how we never felt we had a choice, but when you feel the weight of guilt from having chosen that person, you tend to defend it even more fiercely - is right on the mark.

It also plays into the Karpman triangle as soon as you start trying to get the enabling parent to get out of their position, they are more likely to play Rescuer of the N because they feel so tied with the N's reality, and especially if you confront the N parent (like I did) the N will scream Persecutor and the eNabler is more likely to punish you instead of seeing the trap they are digging for themselves. Perhaps ACONs also still retain a sense of themselves from being persecuted by the N parent when they were young and there's a strong sense that they can put things right if they break away, and the spouse already feels that all opportunities have passed so they might as just whither along with the N. I know in my dad's case, when I discussed getting away/divorcing he would always reply "what's the use? I'm already so old - there's nowhere left for me to go anyway." He was truly a sad sight towards the end. Reeled back in to my momster's madness.

[JennyWren]

I think you have a very good point there Bellelang, when you say that you never really fell for your NMs false ego. I do think that children of Ns have a very different experience of Ns than partners to Ns. The N believes the children belong to him/her. He/she doesn`t feel the need to have to trick or lure them. Just to control and manipulate (when I say "just" I do mot mean to minimise..AT ALL...just that the capture bit is done for them by circumstances) But when the N initially reels in their partner...they have to cast their spell...they have to charm...use all their might of mirroring and manipulation to make you fall in love. And it is that initial love, I believe, that feels so overpoweringly perfect. That binds us to the N as partners. We are always trying to get it back that way. And when we can`t, we feel we have failed....we are inadequate. The N then has us trapped in an ever amplified snare of guilt and fear and low self esteem. That `s how I felt. When things weren`t so good, my NH was always very quick to show me how it was my fault. I am self-critical. He is not.

I have had this converstion many times with my daughters. Particularly my teen. She is very forgiving. Humblingly so. But most days she wants to talk about him. And most days she laughs and says "Mum...whyEVER did you marry that stupid great ****** **** of an excuse for a man?!!" I can see right through him. It`s obvious. "

I can certainly see how mind-meltingly frustrating it is when as children of an N, you can see the N-ness of your parent, but your other parent is still caught in the spell. I think the experience for non-N offspring of N parents can be very different though. I know my brother-in-law was into his 40s before he really began to see through the convoluted mind-games. And I am sure some never will. So I am very glad that some do understand early enough to make sense of their past...and move forward in their own lives without the drag factor of coNfusion and debilitating self-doubt.

[SparklePony]

Yes to all.

I think it might be easier to get over something when the situation was forced upon you - as opposed to actually choosing to be there. Being a child of an n parent takes a lot of the self blame out (well, for me). Zero, what you said about your mom - that's my mom as well (except only one child - me - no golden child). She is still with him. She occasionally lets down her guard, and will have an honest conversation with me - but then she will freeze up and fiercely defend him. "You know your father has paid for this this and this". "Where would we be without your father?" - its sad and disappointing. The truth is that she worked very hard, and earned a very decent salary in her own right - yet she was unable to ever think that she could go a lone without him.

I think she gets pissed at me when I try and have those conversations with her - like I'm blaming her for everything, so she'll start to call me ungrateful. Even though in the beginning, she will talk about it "he's so much worse than he used to be". The truth is that I'm just curious, and I want HER to heal, and so I want to talk about it. I'm out of the house now, and am not nearly affected by him as I used to be. She's not ready to talk about it, and so her giant wall of defenses are up.

I started asking her "Mommmm, why did you ever marry him??" when I was probably 10 - and continued on and on. I can't imagine what it would be like to have your own child question you about that. I don't ask her that anymore - I see the way he his with other people (pillar of the community!) - and I know why.

[JennyWren]

Woooaa good heavens SparklePony. I just this second started a thread about my daughters both asking me why I ever married their dad!!!!

Your poor mother. And how hard for you to look on with what you know and can see so clearly. I can only say, that when my daughter first asked me what on earth I was thinking when I married her dad...I was overcome by an immediate urge to defend him. I wonder now...if in doing that...I was really defending myself and the guilt I felt for her not growing up in the perfect happy environment we all wish for and try so hard to provide.

My answer is very different now. I married him because he displayed such kindness. He was such fun to be with. He showed enormous love and devotion. And I fell in love with him. I stayed with him too long because I could not see what was happening, so entangled we had both become in his N-reality. I escaped while I still have the strength because NH blew his covert N-cover with a major Mid-life Crisis. Without the MLC....I would still be blindly engulfed in guilt and fading self-esteem.

WoN is such an extraordinary place, to be able to learn so much from so many different people. Thankyou!

[SparklePony]

Haha! Jenny - I just responded to your other thread!

Yes, my Mom constantly defended herself - and that made things SO much harder for me as a child. Like I was trying to get through a brick wall.

If you're being honest with her (in the best way you can for an 11 year old) - it will help her now, and in the long run. Being defensive makes your child think "whoa, what's wrong with me then??".

Don't feel guilty about what you've done (because it led to those girls being born anyway!) - but focus on what you can do now. How are all of you going to get through this together? Unfortunately they didn't have a happy environment - but they can now, with you 

[bellelang83]

But when the N initially reels in their partner...they have to cast their spell...they have to charm...use all their might of mirroring and manipulation to make you fall in love. And it is that initial love, I believe, that feels so overpoweringly perfect. That binds us to the N as partners. We are always trying to get it back that way.

It was so hard for me to let go of that myth when I broke up with my ExNbf. It was devastating. It hurt the most - of all the things he put me through. The heart wants to believe so badly that what it saw was true. I think Ns understand betrayal so well, maybe they were betrayed themselves by their primary caretakers. Whatever it is, they really love breaking our hearts. Ruining a cherished myth they built up in our minds and letting us fester in those wounds like they themselves did so many years ago, they really love killing people's heart and soul. That just proves that they are the living dead. They themselves died a long time ago and they are still living so they must be the undead - vampires. When they kill the myth they have created in our minds by changing on us, they are in effect making us pine for a lost life (paradise lost) which we so dearly yearn for because life around us seems dead now compared to the earlier life we were used to with them and it makes us part of the dead too. Instead of looking for life where we can still find it, i.e. getting into a new fulfilling relationship, we remain emotionally dead in a situation that seems to resemble hell. We are then told we are kept in hell because we're bad/at fault/to blame for everything and we don't even long for life anymore. After a while hell becomes the norm and we have truly died ourselves as well. At this point we can turn into Ns ourselves or go mad and kill ourselves since real death will seem like a deliverance. Sounds familiar? Passing through it seems like alchemy. It's a true miracle we survived at all.

[zero]

because NH blew his covert N-cover with a major Mid-life Crisis. Without the MLC....I would still be blindly engulfed in guilt and fading self-esteem.

You know, I was actually about to say it may be different for some of you too because my dad is definitely more of the (less common?) covert-N type.  Many of you probably know already how these are MUCH harder to spot, and even trying to articulate his exact behaviors to get people to understand what you're going through is about as difficult as trying to nail Jello to the wall.  The serious trauma caused by these scumbags is much more apparent and tangible when you're faced with it yourself for a long period of time as opposed to just reading descriptions of it off of a page.

I think the covert N style also makes it that much more difficult for a family member or spouse to "wake up" as it were, since the heightened illusion of humility only gives an eNabler more opportunity to rationalize away bad behaviors and convince themself "he has a few 'quirks' but in general he's still a good person..."  

[smp]

I was not raised in an n family - my only experience is being married to one. I do know now that he lived a completely double life. My kids, my family, friends all adored him because he seemed like such a nice guy to all of us. Many people that I consider aware, were also conned by him. But there was a dark "other side" to him. Many of the problems we faced in the marriage, were not really different from non ns. But, they did just keep piling up, and were never resolved. It is hard for me because I was so conned - as were many others. Then there are many other acquaintances who knew what he was up to, and believed what he said about me being a controlling biatch.

Denial is tough, for so long I believed it was stupidity - but I know now that is our own way of protecting ourselves when times get really bad. Many people are convinced it really is their fault. Many people believe this is all they deserve. Many people do not like confrontation and just keep hoping it will get better in time. Many people are lost in the fog and don't know what is really going on (gaslighting) Many people fear change, better to fight the monster they know than have to deal with a new one. Way too many variables, I think.

[Legs]

Gee, smp....except for the trust fund and the biker buddies, I'd say we could have been married to the same R.T.

Yes, there are so many different ways the N's can act but it all comes down to one thing for me..that they are not what they pretend to be and when we find out, they have no remorse about what they did. Alla dat lying and nary an apology. I had to finally forgive myself since I couldn't forgive him.

Legs, who should be writing out certificates

[smp]

I do truly believe we were married to the same guy!! Maybe yours had biker buddies in the closet!!! I do know it was all a con, the closest I got to an apology was after he left and kept needing to get stuff from the house - I asked him if we could talk - I stated he needed to admit he had done things to hurt the marriage, and  what did he say??? "I have done things to hurt the marriage"!! word for word!! This was before I actually knew the depth of the insanity.

Hey Legs - Happy Mother's Day

[Imogene]

This is a hard one for me.  I don't know that there is any clear answer.  It depends so much on the level of pathology and the type of pathology of the narcissist and the personality of the victim.  I come from a narcissistic family of origin and married a covert narcissist.  While I KNEW my mother was a problem, I had internalized a lot of the abuse and patterns of behavior, so it was very easy to play those dynamics out in my marriage without realizing my husband's narcissism.  I do think being raised with narcissists makes it easier to marry them and easier to tolerate the abuse.  Someone up thread mentioned that we have a level of detachment from our parents that is not there with partners.  That's true.  Children are inherently self-absorbed and do not sacrifice much overtly to the parent's subjectivity.  Parents are just supposed to be there, unchanging and without needs.  But you can be parentified and raised to meet their needs, all the while thinking you have rebelled against them; you can marry a man who seems completely different and yet turns out to be very much the same. 

One thing I will say that could slow down the recovery stage for people with narcissistic partners that I don't think has been mentioned is one's inability to go no contact if there are children involved.  Periods of no contact with my parents are the only thing that allowed me to detach sufficiently enough to have a good-enough relationship with them now.   

[bellelang83]

But you can be parentified and raised to meet their needs, all the while thinking you have rebelled against them; you can marry a man who seems completely different and yet turns out to be very much the same.  

One thing I will say that could slow down the recovery stage for people with narcissistic partners that I don't think has been mentioned is one's inability to go no contact if there are children involved.  Periods of no contact with my parents are the only thing that allowed me to detach sufficiently enough to have a good-enough relationship with them now.    

I completely agree with you on this Imogene - I thought I had rebelled from my NM who I knew was a problem growing up but I still absorbed a lot of the relationship dynamics from growing up in that parentified situation. When ExNbf was the same way, I didn't even question it even though they seemed very different on the surface. Once I peeled away his mask, it was still a long while before I peeled away hers.

And yes, having NC takes a while to take effect as well. I remember it was after 6 months of NC with Ex that I came to the realisation of what had happened and a further 1 and a half with my parents for their effect to wear off as well. It does take time and if you're constantly around their field of BS, it just gets reinforced every time you interact with them.

[Julia]

I agree what Bellelang and Imogene say about thinking I was escaping from dysfunction. I always hated Ndad, but he was very loud and overt in his abuse.

As zero described, the covert N is a totally different creature. With an already have a poor self-esteem, it was way too easy for my Dr - mayors son- XN to get me thinking he was so much better than me, and it started from the very beginning.

The biggest difference, for me, is that I really believed and trusted XN, really went out on a limb loving him, even as he got more abusive. I failed to see that he had never loved me, and so when things got bad, and he needed more and more from me, I dug deeper and gave it. I would NEVER have fallen for anything like that from my Ndad, I kept away from him instictively from about age 5. XN tricked me for about 15 years.

Julia

[zero]

Imogene and Bellelang,

What specific relationship dynamics are you talking about, that you became so used to and ended up repeating later on?

[bellelang83]

Zero - I think it was the blaming, 'us versus them' mentality, minimizing their damage all the time dynamics which was so prevalent in my FOO that I just didn't even think it was abnormal when my ex started doing it. Plus, I had been through so much in my FOO that the abuse from my ex seemed minor in contrast, I think that can often blindside you as to what's going on because you downplay it and think 'there's bound to be SOME abuse in all relationships' instead of seeing it for what it is and getting away. That was the case in all my romantic relationships anyway before I learnt about NPD. Plus I must have been unconsciously attracting these types into my life, because I was very consistent in picking this type of person and letting them hurt me in my former life.  

[Imogene]

Zero,

I was the scapegoat in my family of origin and the person on whom my narcissistic/borderline/histrionic mother projected her feelings of self-hatred.  At the same time, I was the one to whom everyone looked for consolation, advice, and solace.  I was the emotional center, the place that should have been filled by her.  I did not realize my worth, because the place I occupied in the family was ostensibly claimed by my mother, who acted the part of a good mom for outsiders and would have completely denied that she relied on her own daughter to do the real work of making sure that people around her felt secure.  Of course we didn't feel secure, but I held things together in the face of my mother's extreme instability as well as a child could.  I grew up feeling flawed, ashamed, unworthy of a normal life yet somehow destined for a greatness I knew I would never attain.  An untouchable.

All these feelings came back in my marriage, as I became my husband's scapegoat and the person on whom he projected his intense, fearsome hatred of his own mother.  I watched his emotional attachment shift from me on to my daughter, and I relived my mother's blatant favoritism of my narcissistic brother.  I could not find value in the role I played as the center of yet another household, because, like my mother, my husband could not cede top dog position.  I did not realize my husband's narcissism, which in my opinion made matters a lot worse, because I felt doubly guilty when I reacted to his crazy-making with anger.  I'm only now starting to realize that my anger may actually have been a normal response to some of his behavior.

I could go on and on.  But that's enough.