Were You Accused of Being an Abuser?

[ILoveMyHnD]

I feel that the projection is one of the hardest things to truly overcome after 26 years of being the victim of it amonst the other N abuses. Its something that I find deeply rooted into my thinking about myself and I still struggle with it regularly. Awareness is good though...persistance and truth are vital as well!

[notakennedy]

Oh my goodness, JennyWren, I am almost always being accused of not listening, which then prompts a tirade of yelling right in my face (which can go on for what appears an age whilst he 'has his say'). I am also accused of 'butting in' to his conversations and 'taking his words out of context' (I am not sure he even understands what 'context' actually is).  Listening, to him, involves sitting quietly without murmur, not so much as a nod of the head or any such other acknowledgement - these apparently indicate I am not really listening and do not care what he has to say. But the most perverse thing is of course, that I have brought the yelling upon myself, and he would not 'need' to do this if I did not commit said crimes above. Funny, though, the more he does it these days, the more I refuse to allow him to hold me captive, and yes, I do turn right off (anyone remember the Charlie Brown cartoons where they hear the teacher talking in just 'blah blah blah'? That's what I hear from him, lol). Of course my lack of attention just incenses him. Quite frankly I am by now, just plain bored with hearing the same old self-righteous rubbish. But then I brought it all on myself, didn't I???  (she laughs hollowly .....). Interestingly, he used to say that when he was poised to leave his first marriage, he used to tell his ex that he 'would one day lift the concrete lid off the box she held him down in' and he often described her as the oppressor who would not allow him to be himself. Which of course, in my naivety I believed .....  How differently I see it now. Two women, same description of the way they treated him, common denominator - him.  But in his eyes, he has done nothing wrong and both she and I mistreated and abused him.  I agree, he cannot appraise himself honestly - nor take responsibility - he can only rationalise what is happening by transferring his behaviours onto the next most available victim, that is once they have begun to see through his facade.

[Proud2B]

Notakenneday,

I used to tell the exN that he was yelling so loud I could not hear what he was saying - meaning that ALL I could hear was the volume of his voice, not his words.  And that is what I was reacting to.  When I think back, I remember my physical reaction....I wanted to shrink away until I disappeared, until one day I'd had enough.  Something snapped.  I started to fight back by not believing what he said, by questioning his logic, his right to yell at me, and I no longer accepted his version of the truth if it didn't jibe with my own reality. 

He could not handle it.

Like you, anything less than sitting there quietly, provoked some kind of unpleasant response in him.  If I asked a question, I was challenging his 'authority', doubting him (how could he POSSIBLY be wrong?!) meant I was accusing him of lying.  It was endless. 
     
It never ceases to amaze me just how justified they feel in verbally abusing the people closest to them. 

That's not love, or caring, or concern, or cherishing.


Tha's abuse.

Proud2B

[Retired Cornfield]

Husband was too busy verbally abusing me and others at work that I don't think it ocurred to him to attempt to accuse me of abusing him, as he knew very well that I was his main support.  But the last couple of years, when his mind was declining, he would attempt this "hurt feelings" attitude if I attempted to have a conversation with him about some of his responsibilities.  I didn't realize the extent to which he was hiding his physical limitations and ill health.  One evening he blew up at me, and said "you hate me!"  Why do you hate me so much!"  He was attempting to turn the conversation around because he didn't want to discuss the subject at hand.  When that didn't work, he would do the wimpy approach, and if I asked him about something important, he would reply: "Be nice to me.  Why won't you be nice to me."  It was a pity approach, and I soon realized he was too weak to do the Head-of-the-Household chores as in the past.  In fact, he could not do much physically at all. 

I always backed right out of those conversations and left the room.  It was hopeless to reason with him.  That is when silence set in, and he would avoid me for days.  His main problem was that I wouldn't do what he wanted, like a total, silent, adoring slave.  He wanted total control of me, as though it was his right to expect it.  I used to secretly hope that he would hit me so I could run to court and get a restraining order.  I had to have proof in order to face my family and explain why I had a reason to leave him.  No one saw it or would believe his abuse.  Eventually I went to the abused women's meeting and registered him as my abuser, and got some advice.

Retired Cornfield

[notakennedy]

My N uses the word 'attack' a lot. Anyone who dares to contradict or question him, is attacking him.  He is the ultimate victim.  I understand what you mean about volume, he says he needs to get louder and louder until I hear him. I tell him, the louder he gets, the less I hear. It is he who isn't listening!!!!  Also, I no longer accept his version of events.  I understand he was trying to brainwash me into believing I was the one at fault.  He too cannot handle my rejection of his strange logic - I am sure you will understand when I say his indignant response when he is questioned has to be seen to be believed!  How on earth could he be WRONG???  Are you sure my N and yours are not related!!!!!???

[JennyWren]

Wow notakennedy!....your "yell-in-the-face" experience is absolutely IDENTICAL to mine!! I suppose I should stop being so surprised!

Even down to the "no interupting" policy. And the necessity to demonstrate that you are giving his verbal barrage your avid attention. Of course, as I am sure you will know, HE was allowed to butt in whenever he liked if I was speaking (occasionally permitted)....to correct me, or stop me going off subject and the like. And of course to deny that he had ever said something, or insist that I had misunderstood (again...as he said I have poor verbal comprehension skills!!!)

The real nose-dive for me came with NHs Mid-life Crisis, because the content of his lectures was just not easy to tune out (using the Charlie Brown "blah blah blah" method you so accurately describe) He was all out for changing me and required much more worship basically. Hmmmm....that`s attractive!! But his lectures became prolonged (hours on end) louder and more desperate....I tried to conclude things by saying we had very different ideas about stuff and would have to respect each other`s rights to our own opinions. Fat chance!! He was relentless and would follow me round the house "because I wasn`t listening", like somehow if only I would LISTEN properly I would agree with him.

He would bar my exit from the room. He pursued me til the early hours one evening. At one point, at my wits end, I just stood like a tantrumming toddler and repeated "I am not listening to you" over and over. He just carried on his lecture much louder over my insane chanting! What a dignified sight we must have been!!!! But then he stopped...a triumphant smile spreading over his face...as he announced sympathetically "ahhhh...oh dear...you`re having a nervous breakdown". And laughed. I yelled hysterically at him that if anyone was having a nervous breakdown it was bl**dy well not me, went outside...and he locked the door.

But the problem here is just the same as all conversations with him. A conversation to an N is a one-way lecture. If you are not fulfilling the role of eager learner they have to yell it at you. That apparently makes them make more sense. They can not abide your opinion to differ from theirs, maybe because they feel they own you...your thoughts should be their thoughts...I don`t know.

Proud2B, you are too right...it is abuse, but Ns just don`t see it that way I think. I think they consider it abuse to them to not agree instantly with them and absorb their lectures at all times. Defying them, disagreeing with them, interupting them, challenging them (Heaven forbid!!!!!), blinking during a sentence! ARE abuse to an N...or at least my NH treated those behaviours as such.

During one particularly agressive "yell loudly in face" session, my NH elected to screech "Why won`t you listen" 3 inches from my nose while attempting to demonstrate how I could achieve this best by dramatically and emphatically pointing at his eyes (rather than his ears, the loser) I couldn`t help it...I just let a little smile slip round the corners of my lips. It amused me to think he was so mad he didn`t even know where his ears were located any more. But my word...that little smirk of a smile was, to him, the most DISGUSTING ABUSE ever perpetrated. How could I ever THINK of laughing at him. Oh what a b*tch I was and so on. But he had no problem with HIS behaviour, because it was entirely justified. And the weird thing is...I accepted that at the time. I was a nasty b*tch...he was just "passionate" about the subject.

[notakennedy]

JennyWren, if you lived anywhere near me, I would take you out for coffee so's we could commiserate in person, because your experience is SO similar!!! What a shame you are in the UK and I am about as far away as humanly possible ..!  I have been locked out of the house, too, under very similar circumstances. In my dressing gown. In the rain. Hammered like a mad woman on the door to be let in, the entire neighbourhood would have heard. He can be totally the most callous person you could imagine.  He likes to point his finger at me when he lectures (sternly, like a severe Victorian father to a repentant child). And boy, does a very attractive man make himself ugly. Ah ... his predisposition for interruption is legendary.  My daughter and I have observed the man in action, it is almost funny to see when it is not directed at either her or me. Once a friend of ours actually said to him "Russell, I haven't finished speaking!". The familiar grimace of dislike was fleeting on his face but he managed to contain it and was painfully apologetic to them. Yuck.  And guess what, the word he uses most to describe himself and his out of control reactions is .. wait for it.. PASSIONATE.  Let me know if ever you are travelling to NZ!!!!

[JennyWren]

Notakennedy...it is mind-blowing, isn`t it, that two people at opposite ends of the planet could experience such identical weird behaviour from two such cloned face-yelling, door-locking, interupting, "passionate" men!!

So amazingly healing and comforting to be heard and understood. But a double-edged sword, in that I wish it hadn`t happened to anyone. Because it`s vile. I`d love to have a coffee with you! And a whole packet of CZs oreos!!!

[honeybearII]

One of the defining moments for me - the day I really, truly, accepted that he was a piece of shiite and there was no thread of hope left that the marriage could be saved - was the day we walked out of therapy, got in the car, and he turned to me and said, "If you want me to love you and be attracted to you again you have to........" and he proceeded to list at least 15 things that I HAD TO DO.  Bear in mind that this was only a few weeks after I had come home to find him booinking his children's music director and only months after I had found evidence of a years-long affair he had vociferously denied with a completely different woman. 

I just looked at him and said, very quietly, "And what do changes do YOU plan to make?  What is YOUR responsibility toward ME?"

He just stared at me, started the car, and we went home.
The next day I went to my supervisor, said I was resigning when my contract with the college ran out in the spring, contacted a friend 250 miles away and asked if I could move in with her for a time, and made my plans to escape.

Honey

[tango3]

Interesting, I could never have any sort of conversation with N either.  He would either continuously interrupt me, he would also yell in my face, if I said something to him about his yelling, he would say that as he had to yell at his employees all day he couldn't stop (poor employees).  Oh and he constantly twisted things around, I was the one who didn't listen, didn't understand him, or deliberately misunderstood him.  No wonder I felt so stupid!  End result was I simply stopped talking, after all what's the point when you aren't heard?  Oh yes and he was "passionate" too.  The worst thing is though, that while all this is in progress, you aren't aware that you are being abused.  I too wish he'd crossed the line and hit me, then I would have had the excuse I needed to get the hell out, but I think he knew that if he ever did I would have gone straight to the police and filed a complaint and I would not ever have backed down.

[Proud2B]

"End result was I simply stopped talking, after all what's the point when you aren't heard? " ~ Tango3

Funny you should mention that - not responding was one of the many complaints the exN had about his FIRST ex-wife.  He used to say, "She'd just sit there like a rock".  It didn't take me long (only a few years) to figure out WHY she might have resorted to that.  It was the ONLY way of dealing with his verbal onslaughts. 

Proud2B

[betterdays]

I used to tell N, "When your voice is very loud, your face is red, the veins in your neck are bulging, this is called yelling.  You are, too, yelling.  Stop denying it."  To this day he says he never yelled. For d and me, the standards were different.  When we laughed, we were manic.  If we came in excited and slammed the door, ran to the bathroom, fridge, etc, we were bipolar or hyper + any insult.  If we tried to talk to him we were delusional or needy.

Now I m sitting on my patio, listening to the neighbor's fountain, not feeling like I have any particular "diagnosis". Laundry is in, and I applied for jobs online all morning.  Tonight I'll listen to d and her friends talk about how they will advertise the computer repair company they have started in my garage.  I fed them pasta last night, and tonight will be salads.  They take breaks and do my heavy lifting.  There is no name calling or insults, unless they are the rowdy, humorous kind teens do in jest.  There is no feeling of abuse or walking on eggshells.  We eat at the table or here on the patio.  No one cries or isolates themselves.

N is probably trying to weasel more money out of is wealthy client by manipulating and diagnosing her.

It is a no-brainer which situation is abusive, yet he called me a bad mother, insufficient wife, and poor employee for years.

It seems abuse, like beauty, lies in the perceptions of the beholder for N's.

[JennyWren]

"The worst thing is though, that while all this is in progress, you aren't aware that you are being abused" - tango3

Incredible but true. So completely true. And yet it is mind-blowingly obvious looking back.

I too stopped trying to talk in the end. It took a long time to be trained to shut up, but by golly he did it....and then he decided to leave our marriage, citing one reason as because I had "problems expressing myself, and kept things in, when all he ever wanted was to have a close loving relationship." In his mind....I was the one incapable of a healthy loving relationship. And it took a little while for me to remember the reasons WHY I didn`t bother to speak to him any more. (He did not ever ACTUALLY leave of his own accord...it was a threat designed to strike terror!)

It`s like they stamp on your foot for three hours and then exclaim in disappointed surprise, "Oh dear, there`s something wrong with the way you`re walking!" Well....DER!!!

Betterdays - I love this....."I used to tell N, "When your voice is very loud, your face is red, the veins in your neck are bulging, this is called yelling.  You are, too, yelling.  Stop denying it." I wish I`d said it! He would have ignored me I guess, but it sure would feel good. How FANTASTIC to read your description of the wonderful improvement in your life!

[tango3]

and then he decided to leave our marriage, citing one reason as because I had "problems expressing myself, and kept things in, when all he ever wanted was to have a close loving relationship." In his mind....I was the one incapable of a healthy loving relationship.

Ha Jenny think we were married to the same man!  That was, almost word for word, what mine said.  He had apparantly done nothing but be a model husband and he had tried for years and years... blah, blah, blah.  What I have come to realise, just recently, is that I wasn't just depressed for the last ten years of my marriage, I was depressed almost the entire 23 years!  I hung in because I just kept on hoping he would change (knowing nothing of NPD).  As I now realise, there was no chance of him ever changing.  Funny thing is everyone in the world seemed to realize I was depressed except me:) 

[JennyWren]

Wow Tango3....Eeerie stuff. My NH went on and on about how much he had sacrificed for the good of our marriage. How EVERYBODY else always said what a warm and kind person he is. (ie how grateful I should be)

There were times in the last few years of our 19 year marriage when he had come to me to say he wasn`t happy, that he needed more love from me...and what was wrong with me? I couldn`t answer his question, because I didn`t know that the ahswer was HE was wrong with me.

And the sad thing is...he really would have seen a change in me. Because, like you, I became more and more withdrawn and, with hindsight, depressed. I too was hanging on in there in the hope of improvement. But I had no idea that HE was the source of the problem in me. I knew some of his behaviour was downright selfish...but he thought that was a giant manly joke that he was so self-centred and masculine, and that was that.

I knew I was unhappy. But had no idea why. Only that NH laid both my unhappiness AND his at my door. And I felt it was all my responsibility. No wonder I got depressed.

[too_many]

Ha tango3 and JennyWren - that quote also uncannily matches what an n-boss/mother of some babies I took care of from birth said to me after blowing up to bring me back in line and I tried to graciously quit, as I'd been preparing through two months of her growing anger: 'I'm aware that you had some family problems growing up, but [insert dripping pity here] nobody can help you if you don't talk about it.'  As if talking about any of it in any detail would have ever been safe with her! (I had just tried to be semi-open as she got to know me so that it would never suddenly come as a shock.)


too_many

[JennyWren]

Aaaargh too_many....how hair-pullingly frustrating Ns are!!!

If you try to talk to them you are abusing them by having an opinion that is different to theirs..or expressing a feeling you are not entitled to have. You are interupting their right to lecture you, and tell you what you think and feel.

If you give up trying to talk to them because of above.....well, now you are psychologically flawed!        

Quite frankly, it is an impossible situation to be in. Now I look at it like that it seems so clear...but at the time, it really did feel like I had my own communication issues. I guess the clue should have been that I didn`t have such issues with anyone else. Which I suppose is why they try to isolate you.

[too_many]

Yes, it truly becomes impossible - I knew we were down to the final days the night before I was to help her take the babies to church the next morning, and she told me what time to report because of the clock's changing an hour, and I said, "Um, ok, but aren't they going the other way?  I thought we'll have an extra hour?" 

And she snapped, "Look, I don't want an argument!" ('I just want to bring two toddlers to a church two hours before the doors unlock.')

She also got really offended, because I had finally dared to suggest (when the babies were twenty months), it might not be so necessary anymore to record every single diaper change and its contents on her little charts? 

(My earlier families had completely trusted me to take notes or report anything unusual as needed.)


too_many

[JennyWren]

A 20month record of diaper contents! Oh dear, that says it all. No doubt she has no clue or bond with the little ones personally....but a fabulous knowledge of their bodily functions. Poor little kids better get used to it.....they are a bunch of statistics and brag points rather than little unique individuals to be nurtured and loved.

Hope you have found a new family and environment where you are trusted once again.

[too_many]

Thanks JennyWren - my nanny days are pretty far behind me now - the kids from my first real situation, that I met as total infants, are 13! And those little boys are 11...  Of course, because of their mom, I haven't had contact with them, but I did hear through the housekeeper not long after I left that the poop charts were abandoned.   

A memory that still makes me smile from the final weeks, is one of the boys pointing at a picture of a witch in his board book and happily saying, 'Mommy.'  (Only because their mother liked to wear a lot of black, but still.  )


too_many

[Candymom]

I have been called every name in the book by exNh #2 and I think he even made some up. This was done repeatedly for years until I told him he could not contact me unless it was an emergency or I would file a harrassment charge against him. Guess what? He was the one who cheated on me with my best friend but turned it alllll around on me as if I had been the one who cheated. Every chance he got he blasted me with claims that I was the one and how pathetic I am. I finally made it stop and now he tells it to my children when they visit.

[Bruna]

Hi people
            I have received the strangest accusations from my XN too. It is so strange how our experiences are similar! Whenever i tried to talk to him he would accuse me of wanting to argue, I mean like everytime I tried to say anything. If my ideas were different than his, of course I was accused of being bossy, arrogant, he read my words as accusations. If i was being loud, because i was excited about something, he said I was being violent, and maniac. Whenever I would playfully push him or pat his rear he said I was being physically abusive. (I weight around 110lbs). If I was being sexy I was a sex pervert, a nympho. Needless to say after a while there was no more sex, and he started to complain about that. That was my fault once again.  He constantly accused me of not listening to his rants, when actually whenever I spoke he seemed to be deaf, losing interest at my third/forth word. He justified his lack of verbal contact by saying i refused to listen to him, and was not interested in what he was saying so he didn't care to talk to me. I wonder if somebody else here also experience a deaf/mute Npartner who never wanted to chat with you. Mine once even blamed me for choking while eating because I had deared to talk to him and had demanded an answer. Again I was being violent, I was attacking him. So I Bruny the loony, got to the point of talking to myself aloud: I asked questions and gave myself answers. Lol. He was such a suble bazturd , he made it all look like I was the crazy one, the violent one. He had such a rage inside him, Lord! I could smell it, breathe it. Even the demeaning comments he made were subtle, I never never made a comment on his physique, but one day he would say that i was kind of plumb, the next day that I was too skinny. I guess he couldn't decipher which one hurt me more.

[inflatedheart]

Bruna-- This sounds like my N-sis! When we were sharing an apartment together, her moods began changing drastically and some unlabeled prescription bottles started arriving in the medicine cabinet. I started to worry that she was abusing substances, so I took one of the pills from the bottle so I could look it up. I stashed it away in my sock drawer until I could confirm what it was and perhaps tell my family what was going on her. Well, one day she decided to go through that same drawer to "borrow something" (boundary problems, anyone?) and she found the pill in the drawer in the little baggie I stowed it in. Needless to say, I was busted. She accused me of having an addiction because I had ONE of this little weird pills, but she refused to tell me exactly what they were! She accused ME of having an addiction when they belonged to HER! The longer she went on with her shaming lecture, the more and more elaborate my "diagnosis" got. I was a klepto for "stealing" from her, I was obviously grappling with an addiction (to what, exactly?!) because I had this pill in my drawer...blah blah blah. I never did figure out what those little pills were. Because of her craziness, I started being more recluse and tried to avoid being in the same room with her; largely staying in my room for hours on end instead of venturing out into the living room where she would find every opportunity to belittle me or scream at me for a dirty plate or errant sock on the floor. Also, I worked in a very stuffy office, donning heels and work suits; generally uncomfortable clothes. When I got home, the first thing I did was take off and hand up my work stuff and take a long bath. The remainder of my evening was spent in PJs or a bathrobe. When I did emerge from my room to meet a friend one day, she accused me of having a masturbation addiction(!!!!). I mean, what else could I be doing in there for hours on end? Why was I always taking a bath after work? Why else would I be in a bathrobe in my room alone? (uhmmmmmm to get away from you? Because I'm stressed? Because I hate my job?) CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? Ridiculous and inappropriate! Now that I understand more about projection, I'm starting to wonder...