Were You Accused of Being an Abuser?

[Proud2B]

It got me curious after reading other folks experience with their N.

Mine accused me of being abusive on more than one occasion.  And for a while I believed him, because I did act out.  Usually it was in response to something he'd done - like the Silent Treatment for a week running, or subtle passive/aggressive acts, or just plain meanness on his part.

NEVER did I START something.  Yep, I threw tomatoes, broke a plate, yelled (on more than one occasion, sad to say), and slugged him in the arm once.  I behaved badly, and did things I am very embarrassed about now.

But abuse?  No.  I did not abuse him.  But because I misbehaved, he created enough self-doubt in me with his accusations, that it kept me in line for a little while longer. 

The real acid test for me is that I did not 'abuse' anyone before that relationship, and have not 'abused' anyone since that relationship ended.  Hmmmm....imagine that. 

I'm just wondering if others experienced anything similar.

Oh, and I switched to FireFox, and the message box doesn't scroll anymore.  What a hassle that was with MSIE.  Thanks for the info CZ.

Proud2B
 

[redhairtemper]

Actually, if you check out the definition of Narcissistic Victims Syndrome outbursts like yours are a common symptom.  Some victims actually do get charged with domestic violence. 

[eyes_up]

Proud, Ya know, I had so much steam stacking up inside it would have been easy to become crazed and violent. I can recall once doing something that was NOT abusive but it was out right crazy. I found pix of women on my computer history and became accusatory. Well, as I look back I can see that I was in a trap. I was being pushed past my limits and well, I was losing it.

To an observer the story would look great ... That I was insecure (and so I was) and I was insane (and so I was) and I was trapping him by being suspicious (and so I was, extremely so at some point and with darn good reason). Can not really say I was 'trapping' but it could look like, through the voice of the narc, that I was being out right
 controlling. It didn't matter. It never went any where except right back into my face.

That is what I think happens with covert abuse.

It was not until I was in therapy about 6 months that therapist told me... abuse and covert abuse was active. At some point it slipped out and I told the narc he was abusive and it was after that the word abuse multiplied. I was then the abusive one.

Unfortunately for the narcissist, His accusation hardly mattered at that point. I had other things going on that he was not aware of (therapy) and new info being logged into my head. I was no longer isolated.


When looking up answers to abuse I ran into the term NPD and began reading which led me to WoN.

So the answer to your question is YES.

Learning about covert abuse pretty much changed the way I read behaviors. If I had known this even back when I lived at home with my mother I would have known better.
In that case I was also a perpetrator and my mother the victim. I have lived through a lot of that bull and finally I am free.

Thanks for asking,

eyes

[NewWings4MeNow]

Proud,

In my entire lifetime I've never known anger, hatred or rage the ways I've experienced it toward XNH through these years.  Never had this kind of relationship with any other person.  It has shocked and horrified me that I could feel this strongly.

In my entire lifetime I've also never had a relationship with any other person who violated almost every boundary that exists between people, or whose malevolent acts against me completely changed the course of, and took control over, my own life.  

In my entire lifetime I'd never felt imprisoned by any other person.

It takes all a person's courage, strength, will and resilience to forge a persona that does not react or spiral down into abusive behavior themselves, to fight back, to defend themselves, to try to re-exert control over their own life, to get out of feeling like they've been cornered.  If one survives it, growing and maturity, it's my view, have to comprise some part of the outcome.

I made a conscious choice a long, long time ago to not ever go there in my life.

XNH e-mailed me just once, years ago, using the "you're abusive" language -- shortly after I referred to his phone conversation to me where he threatened to hurt me.  His act was simply a revenge tactic.

Hasn't happened since.  

I now understand, more than ever, how stories like "The Burning Bed" and Battered Women's Syndrome could occur, and empathize with the level of extreme desperation so many women/abuse victims must feel who've been through so much worse than I've experienced, and over a much longer period of time than I have.

The moral question is:  What's ultimately justifiable?

NewWings4MeNow

[betterdays]

Ditto, ladies.  We sound like we are living the same life.  Wings asks what is ultimately justifiable, and I do not know, but I will never be like N, so I can't go the revenge route.  That said, here is my all time favorite one line joke, courtesy of Sid Caesar:   

      If I had shot him when I first thought of it , I'd be out by now         

[CZBZ]

LOL, Betterdays!!

My answer is "YES". I was accused of being emotionally abusive which is so darn funny I forgot to laugh. By the time the narcissist starts accusing you though, you might be uncertain of yourself and actually wonder if you are abusive. Since a paranoid narcissist sees bombs planted in bunny rabbits or threats behind every corner grocery store, it's not too hard to understand why they see YOU as a threat. They see things that don't exist and no one can convince them that they are wrong.

As far as reacting to the narcissist? Well...................let me admit that I have never in my entire and whole frustrating life, told anyone to F**K OFF" but one day, that's exactly what I told my husband. I have never done that again, either. And my life is not exactly a 'bed of roses' without frustration and anxiety but THAT MAN---O MY HECK! That man would make Lassie bite off his kneecaps.


Hugs,
CZ

[BlueSky]

I wrote a reply and lost it.  Sigh.  But, yes, my exN did accuse me of abuse - the way I found out about it was that exN's wife wrote about it on her blog.  He never accused me of that to my face.  I guess they had some conversations about why he hid things from her... eventually they decided that he did that because I abused him during the marriage - that when he didn't tell me about something, I was abusive when I found out.  When I read that, I thought 'isn't that convenient, when he screws up with her, he blames me, and she buys it'.

I was thinking about what I wrote earlier and what occurred to me is how strange it was to be accused of being abusive during the marriage when what I recall is being very careful to never upset exN!!  Later in the marriage, he would cry or act very hurt and upset when confronted about things he did without my knowledge or about lying.  When I would bring things up, I would review whatever it was to make sure it was worth upsetting him about and I would try to be gentle.  I do not recall ever yelling or breaking things or threatening him.  If whatever he did was related to something financial he had done behind my back, I would try to calmly tell him about the consequences of his actions and ask him nicely to please let me in on the decision-making the next time.   I can see now why an N might think that 'abusive' as they would know they were being questioned on their 'right' to do what they wanted.

I did get mad at him and yelled at him a few times post-divorce - once told him to 'F*** off' - which was highly unusual for me.  There were some emails I got pretty angry in.  I feel badly about it.  There are some things I did during the marriage I feel bad about - its mainly that after he started isolating himself from me and our son, I let him do it.  I stopped trying to reach out to him and began concentrating on my son and myself.  My psychologist told me that the things I did do were in reaction to what he was doing - and he was doing some unhealthy and very hurtful things.

Still, I do review my past actions and wonder from time to time....usually, I am able to shake off the feeling that maybe I was.

[Litha]

...Well, as I look back I can see that I was in a trap. I was being pushed past my limits and well, I was losing it.

To an observer the story would look great ... That I was insecure (and so I was) and I was insane (and so I was) and I was trapping him by being suspicious (and so I was, extremely so at some point and with darn good reason). Can not really say I was 'trapping' but it could look like, through the voice of the narc, that I was being out right
 controlling. It didn't matter. It never went any where except right back into my face.

eyes, you've summed up my experience nicely with your post. What I finally realized was this:

The healthy response to narcissistic abuse is not fighting back, it is ending the relationship.

Fighting back feeds their need for n-supply, and so encourages them to repeat whatever behavior triggered you to fight. Pretty soon you are being abusive, and they can prove it in divorce court or custody hearings. They win.

[tango3]

Oh yes I was accused of being abusive.  I think in one of his pathetic answers on the divorce papers he claimed we fought all the time.  Well for the last five years of our marriage he was hardly home, so there was nothing to fight about and by that time I was plain worn out from fighting him.  Our fights were always about something he did and me reacting to it, but the later years - I just gave up and he did whatever the hell he wanted.

[RB22]

I was accused of abusing him, his wife, PAS.  He even had his attorney send me an article about PAS... in that article was a website.  I went there and did HUGE amounts of research... I wasn't alienating him from his Children... his lack of initiative, and his wife were!

When he sent the 'YOU ARE the abuser in this relationship'   I was just far enough out of his control that I started to have fits of hysterical laughter.  EVERYTHING he said I did... HE DID.  And I had the Emails from him to prove it. 

Prior to that, I remember him accusing me of being manic, clinically depressed, (that ended shortly AFTER he left, wonder why) a Narc and Sybil.... I asked CZBZ if I was a narc... she told me if I was asking... I wasn't.  I chose to believe her... she's never lied to me. 

She likes oreos.... so she got my vote.

Hugs,

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

Getting to the point of writing single letters as e-mail replies, or one-word or monosyllable word answers, has been incredibly freeing.  

Gave XNH nothing, zippo, to chew on, use/spit back or make into a larger issue.  Initially he ranted over me not replying and those rants escalated to abusive e-mails, but now I don't even read them.  Am sure that if I did there would be a lot to laugh about (as there has been), but lately those reads are too risky and diverting of my focus.

RB, your comment about N's statements that what you were doing was what he was doing was very much, eventually, my experience with XNH.    It stunned me one day when, early in separation, he e-mailed that he 'wasn't a "cheater and chiseler"' -- as those were words I'd never heard him use ... so I knew he already thought that about himself.  He wrote that kind of thing several times, essentially telling me about who he was.

eyes talks about being trapped.  Since I found out the D tactics were all part of a concerted campaign XNH planned with his friend, looking back I can see very clearly how his moves through the years were designed to ensnare/corner me -- and his first among them was to return to the house so that he could incite a fight and claim I'd been violent (when he was the one who had been physical).  I'd have none of it.  

XNH hasn't called me psychoanalytical names; he's been a whole helluva lot more insulting than that at a more dehumanizing level.

NewWings4MeNow

[betterdays]

N calls me "scary", and "The Witch".  That's what he called his mother his whole life, until I turned 40.  Then it became me who was scary.  It is interesting to note that D's friends always call me "Mom", and tell her how lucky she is to have me.  I have been described by these kids as "laid-back", and "there for us".
I have been criticized as being accomodating, too nice, and not aggressive enough in a previous job, by a male N supervisor.  Althpugh I do stand up for myself and I think I have good boundaries, I have to say my all time favorite parental role model was and is, Fred Rogers.  I am one scary lady....

[Crystalstream]

We were at a convention.  he left me alone all week, running, golfing, meetings.  At the end of the week he walked up to me smiling and said " How are you?"  I said 'I am lonely.  I have waited for you all week.  I feel sad."  he said "thats funny.  I thought the same thing about you.  At which point I stood up and said "listen you blanking drug addict, dont forget where I am and who I have been with all week. You are full of (fill in the blank).  I see that for what it is and you cant get one over on me today.
I am so full of rage today.  I know it is good rage, because I will ride it out of the Land of N.

[Crystalstream]

names he called me and things he said:
Jabba the Hut
Morbidly Obese
Whats a nice coat like that doing on someone like you?
The way you think and the way you see things is wrong.
Sure, I got mad.  And I am the one who was abusive.

[CZBZ]

"The healthy response to narcissistic abuse is not fighting back, it is ending the relationship. " ~Litha

Absolutely! Perfect...that's the best way to save your integrity and your sanity, ha! Narcissists, as most of you know, just LOVE getting people ot react. They gain two things from our reactions:

1) a sense of control over us

2) we hate ourselves for acting out-of-character

If you picture yourself as a puppet-on-a-string and the narcissist as a happy-sadist, you can see why the narcissistic relationship is a destructive relationship. You might also understand 'why' your marriage/relationship suddenly ended when you started focusing on yourself and taking good care of yourself. Once your boundaries get better and you are less likely to REACT to the narcissist's pokes and jabs and insults, they tire of us. They move on to another puppet who just might dance on the end of the narcissist's strings forever.

It's a little off-topic but this concept explains why the narcissist ends up with a new partner who is 'very' reactionary and acts out FOR the narcisssist. As some of you also experienced, SHE does things to YOU that are so terrible you don't know why your husband doesn't stop her. Why? Well, he's pulling her strings and lucky for him, she does the things he wants her to do. That way, Mr. Puppetmaster can sit in the shadows and watch the Punch-and-Judy show and never get his hands dirty.


Hugs,
CZ

[BlueSky]

It is nice to know I am not alone in having experienced the reactionary new spouse/SO of an exN!  ExN's wife did things that appalled me and my family.  It is amazing they accused me of being abusive considering some of the things they both said & did.  I used to get really angry and didn't care much if they knew until I realized that they loved that as they could use that against me.

I was quite surprised, given my exN's huge penchant for keeping things secret, that he apparently was OK with her writing about so many things in their life online.  If I had done that years ago, exN would have been very upset.  Took me awhile to see that he was getting something out of her blogging the way she does.  Without a doubt he is pulling her strings - and I sometimes wonder how long it will take until she figures out she's being used.  I do think he used her to get back at me.   

[bellelang83]

My ExNbf got a lot more years and money out of me with this one. At the start of the relationship, he told me how thoroughly he had been abused by his ex, who was a compulsive s**t that ran around with all these guys whilst he was busy making food for them every night. He said she had almost killed him because he had a nervous breakdown after their relationship ended and wanted to kill himself everyday for 18 months. I fell for the whole thing hook, line and sinker even wanting to try to find her details online and diss her. Unfortunately as the years went on and the abuse kept piling on, I became more and more angry and would often give into raging at him (yelling, screaming and hitting him on some occasions) - always after he had pissed me off to the point of no return. Now I'm not trying to justify my behaviour but at the time, I believed I was fighting back. He saw it as me being the abuser.

When he came into my life, I had told him about my horrific childhood (which involved a lot of physical abuse) and he often made a big show about how awful my existence had been and would even cry about it (I was often very touched by this) and assured me that he was here to make sure that I would get all the love I never received from my parents - but over the months and years, as his abuse towards me continued and escalated and I fought back, he would say that I was an abuser and was turning him into a battered, PTSD'd victim. (he claimed I was like this at the start of our relationship - even though I was actually in a good place at the time (he even wanted to take my childhood survivor status away from me) He even said "it feels like you've taken all my life force from me - our roles have reversed".

He claimed I made him sick (whilst he continued to eat a vegan diet that did not suit his constitution even after being told by a biochemist who analysed his blood type and said he couldn't continue in this way) that I was responsible for putting him in an early grave. I tried on many occasions to get him to adopt a less extreme diet but he would not have a bar of it. At the same time, my hair was falling out, I was having panic attacks every week, had chronic pain from a dislocated shoulder from a domestic assault due to a situation concocted by my ExNbf and momster, had IBS from extreme stress, and was feeling suicidal and he had the gall to say I was the abuser with a capital A.

Plus I was also given to such self loathing due to the fact that I couldn't seem to end this relationship, the worse it got the more I clung on that the only thing keeping me going was the fear that he might not be there one day. I could only see things in the timeframe of a day or two at the most - my cognitive faculties were completely paralysed. There was just so much craziness - it had to end somehow. I felt I lost 10 years off my life from those years with him. Its been so hard facing what had happened I haven't even thought about it since I kicked him out of my life two and half years ago. Writing about it now - it's hard to see how I didn't end my life then. Sandwiched between two Ns. My soul was almost annihilated in those years. And he has the gall to call me the abuser. Unreal.

[notakennedy]

Scenario: fullgrown man holding petite woman against her will, insisting she 'let him have his say', refuses to let her go.  He is shouting and will not stop, despite calm protestations that he will get listened to more readily if he lets her go and refrains from yelling. He is out of control and not responsive. She loses control completely at that point and fights back in order to be released, gets her hand free and scratches him, but he still doesn't let go, so she uses free hand to slap him across the face.  The following day he shows his family his 'injuries' and implies she is lucky he did not report the assault. Suddenly she is the abuser. She is ashamed that she has resorted to this as it goes totally against her basic nature and she cannot recall ever reacting like this in any other relationship in her life, and unfortunately this scenario is not the only time but a situation that has occurred several times in the last 15 years, only to somehow diffuse and settle back into whatever they have come to accept as the norm in their marriage. That's me, the petite woman. The last episode was about a month or so ago.  Since then I have had a relapse of MS symptoms, brought about I guess by the extreme stress involved. That says it all, doesn't it - this is so unhealthy so as now to be having a physical manifestation in me, which can't be ignored any longer and has to be dealt with ... except I feel so drained.....

[Imogene]

Yes, funny this old thread should pop up today.  Today my husband said that I was psychologically and emotionally abusing him, right after he threatened to take my daughter away from me if I didn't meet his expectations of me after we separated.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Yes, essentially, today in d's therapy session.

NewWings4MeNow

[notakennedy]

Ah I too have been told how much misery I have inflicted on N, and how I have 'ruined his life'..... LOL

[NewWings4MeNow]

notakennedy,

Your description of the victim-turned-abuser is exemplified in Lundy Bancroft's book Why Does He Do That?

NewWings4MeNow

[inflatedheart]

Yes! I was accused of being abusive by my own sister toward her. I used to see her like only like once every three or four months.  I was staying with my parents (long story) for cancer treatment because it was cost-effective and close to my treatment. My husband had to go back and attend some chores and tasks at our house three hours away, so he couldn't take me to my radiation appointment. We talked about it and I told him that I wanted to take the bus. After the appointment, I was feeling good and decided to shop and take myself out to lunch. The next day, without my husband around, I realized that I had overdone things and was exhausted. I had to ask my mother to drive me to my appointment that morning. I rested that night and my husband returned the next day to take me to my appointment. Somehow, this news got through the grapevine to my sister and she accused my husband of abusing me. It was incredible for her to even suggest that he was abusing me. He was essentially working his butt off to get me to every appointment, fetch food, medications, help me shower and deal with my insurance and school matters. The man was run ragged! I was so upset that I told her, in no short words, f**k off.
This accusation was well timed on her part, because I explained that I would not tolerate her behavior anymore when I needed to focus on healing from cancer treatment. Also note that her interpretation of "abuse" is that my needs and wants were perceived to be placed on the back burner by my sister. She accused my husband of being abusive toward me because I wasn't 100% the focus in that situation. Interesting...
Anyway, she was extremely angry at me for defending my husband's integrity, so she accused me of using our parents and abusing her. Talk about insanity!! First I was a poor helpless victim, then I was the magically the terrible abuser. I was creating boundaries and stopping contact with her, so her bullying didn't work. The only thing she could do is attempt to make herself look like a victim. She proceeded to tell my parents how horribly I had treated her when she was just being "concerned, kind, loving and sisterly". She continued the abuse by demanding to see me, harassed me via telephone and email for the next several days until I threatened her with legal repercussions. At that point, I guess she figured it out that I wasn't going to be her welcome mat anymore! She attempts to periodically contact me, but I set up my email so it automatically sends it spam and responds with "I'm sorry, this user does not accept emails from this address".

[JennyWren]

Yes....my NH had accused me of suppressing him. I was so upset (at the time!) that I asked him to elaborate..but he never could quite explain what he meant, and just kept repeating "I feel suppressed....you have been suppressing me". I`m not sure HE knew what he meant either, poor dear!!!

He also insisted that "not listening" (which means not AGREEING) is as bad an abuse as yelling in my face. In fact...my "not listening" MADE him yell in my face. I guess in many ways he is trying to say I am abusing myself!!!

In fact..to be brief...he projected all his little abusive behaviours onto me...and if he couldn`t do that, he made them my fault. Ahhh, a textbook a**hole if ever there was one.

[bellelang83]

Brilliantly said Jenny.  "he projected all his little abusive behaviours onto me...and if he couldn`t do that, he made them my fault." My exNbf did exactly the same - like you said earlier they are carbon copies of each other. They should be all be sterilised/neutered.