This thread was originally posted in October 2006
Why does he treat her better than I?
From: 2cute4words1963 ent: 10/13/2006 8:47 AM Hello.
I was the OW in my situation and I've also been the Wife of a P who cheated mercilessly. One was more violent than the other. Even while I was married to my P, he seemed to speak of and treat his OW's far better than I. Same situation with my N. Treats his wife better than I.
Is this a manipulative game for them? Is this sort of game designed to keep you (editorally) working your ass off for these people?
It is the ONE thing I can't seem to let go of. I keep studying, thinking, reading....and it's still the same bottom line. Why was she worth many vacations, public appearances, money, gifts after fourteen yeras and I was not after five and all he claimed he didn't get at home and wanted to get rid of and that I gave?
I've discovered that it isn't that i don't believe I'm not worth what I have to offer. My question is WHY wasn't it as good as what he claims she doesn't give? And if it is so great, why was he with me in the first place???????
This N is pissed at me right now. Angry because I've decided to see someone else, even as just a friend for now. I feel connected to this new person and it's a healthy, positive relationship. He HATES it.
So this year, apparently, he took wifey on vacation to the coast DURING his anniversary, which he never does. It was meant to hurt me. And it did!!! Then he calls the DAY OF his anniversary from the coast and tells me "I miss you, I love you". ICK! On the DAY of your anniversary with your WIFE? He said, "I'm just hurt because of *****and you're connection to him. I don't like it. It has really hurt me."
Oh shut UP!
I keep changing my number. He keeps changing his sim numbers, so now I just don't answer the phone.
This has been such a long drawn out process for me. I'm exhausted from it all. I just want peace in my life. But still.............there is this intensive nagging biting, hurtful feeling that exists......from all the lies he has told me, and all that he showed me.......the classic madonna/alternative supply complex. Even though I played the role of OW and assume responsibility for it, I know I'm not a "alternative supply". I've seen many women who were good and kind people that were victimized by married N's and their lies. In that light, I feel we are all so much the same in so many ways. I dno't allow anyone to stereotype me that way and it doesn't bother me in the least when it happens. I've been on both sides of the fence and neither was greener. I've learned a lot from my experiences.
But there is a stumbling block even still.
Why did he treat HER better? He would go out of HIS WAY to show how much better he could treat her. I believe he set this up so I would continue to try harder. WHy is this such a hangup? NOt just for me, but for a lot of us, I think. I've seen this over and over. And I don't undersatnd it either and admit to not understanding.
Thanks for letting me vent.
2cute
From: _CZ Sent: 10/13/2006 11:11 AM Dear 2Cute,
You have quite the perspective to offer people since you've been on both sides of the bed (so to speak ).
You've been a betrayed partner to an infidel maN and you've participated in a maN's choice to betray his partner.
She wasn't your partner to betray...but whoah--you know how us sisters can be when one of us dares mess with another sister's family! 'Cuz it's never just the spouse we are hurting;
it's the kids and the in-laws and a whole background of broken relationships. Not to mention the schism in the self when we don't live up to something we profess to value.
There is NO man on the face of this planet who is worth betraying the sisterhood. But then again, maybe my sisters put the fear of god in me when it comes to messin' with somebody else's family. Even if we determine someone else's relationship to be dysfunctional, messed-up, and deserving whatever trauma it takes to blow the construction apart...we ought not be the stick of dynamite a N uses to do the job for him.
Now most times, people start bickering back and forth about the social value of monogamy and we lose a valuable opportunity to really hear one another. I can't say as I've been a model of restraint the past few years but I have come to a deeper understanding of the underlying dynamics of N-fidelity. You ask a good question, 2Cute and its my hope this thread does not become an opportunity to attack each other, nor a thread of punishing messages beating you up when you're doing a fine job of that yourself. But you are aware there are many women on this forum whose lives have been torn apart by infidelity and we know there are also many OW's who've been caught up in the N's seductive lies, too.
"Even while I was married to my P, he seemed to speak of and treat his OW's far better than I. Same situation with my N. Treats his wife better than I." ~ 2Cute
Without adequate recovery time from a psychopathic and mercilessly cheating husband, it's easy to see how you could end up seeking validation/love from a narcissistic married maN. Most people figure they can leap over the Healing Stage and find another relatioNship alleviating inner pain. And yea, we can do that. But when we do, our CORE wounds will pull us back down from our lofty perch because we are NOT grounded in reality.
I say this (even though you already understand it, I'm sure) because it is only your perception he treats his wife better. You see something you want and another woman has it and maybe it stems back to a core wound dealing with envy; or a sense of never getting what you needed or wanted as a child. I suggest this because of relationships I have with women who have envied another woman's man, when the real issue was her inability to bond with her father as a child. In a child's eyes: Mom has him, she wants him and this unconscious perception may motivate dysfunctional behaviors as adults. That's some armchair psychology this morning. Where's the popcorn? <grin>
"On the DAY of your anniversary with your WIFE?"
Ummm...do I know you personally?
The X-husbaNd and I went to the California coast for our 29th anniversary with a special room overlooking the ocean and all the fineries a woman would ever hope for after nearly three decades of seeing the same penis and he the same arse. While I sat on the deck overlooking incoming waves and smiling about our hard work overcoming his Midlife fling with Infidelity, he was outside on his car phone doing business as usual. I just didn't know the business-as-usual meant making his girlfriend cry because he was spending time with his wifey-poo.
I do believe he enjoys his sadistic games with other women who want him so badly, they'll put up with being abused, debased, mistreated and alienated from society-in-general. Does that make sense? It's like an N's ultimate alienation-game when a woman betrays her sisters because sisters are the best hope we have of getting ourselves out of a subordinate position to male entitlement.
She'll hate herself for picking a man over her morals and the more a maN can get his OW to hate herself, the less he hates himself. The infidel maN projects blame, shame and hate and wow...a woman with wounded boundaries will soak it up like a sponge and never realize she is Dancing on the end of the Puppetmaster's strings.
If a recent loss or childhood losses are not given adequate attention and time to heal, those losses will render a woman vulnerable to a narcissist. She becomes the container for his projections as she spirals further and further from the person she hopes to be. The only way out is to face core wounds we are terrified of feeling. We must suffer legitimate pain and stop the repetitive pain of pointless suffering in triangulated relatioNships that will never satiate nor heal our original wounds.
Your thoughts, 2Cute??
Love,
CZ
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 10/13/2006 11:34 AM "There is NO man on the face of this planet who is worth betraying the sisterhood. But then again, maybe my sisters put the fear of god in me when it comes to messin' with somebody else's family. Even if we determine someone else's relationship to be dysfunctional, messed-up and deserving whatever trauma it takes to blow the construction apart...we ought not be the stick of dynamite a N uses to do the job for him."
CZ: I couldn't have said it any better
From: 2cute4words1963 Sent: 10/13/2006 12:26 PM CZ,
I find your thoughts on this subject fascinating!
Perhaps it would help to clarify my involvement with current N, as you bring up the idea that being on both sides of the fence would help. I understand that there are many women in here who have had or who are, raging over the idea that their N spouse cheated on them.
My first spouse, whom I was married to for seventeen years (I should say lived with, but still legally married now for twenty four, can't find him to get a divorce again), was enormously abusive. I tried EVERYTHING, from rehab, to marital counseling to church. We had six children together, NONE are by other men. I'd been faithful in my marriage until the end of it.
When my P-spouse decided to take out his aggressions on what was then my ten year old son, I'd had enough. I just snapped. Why I did not before, was irrelevant to me then. The stories I could tell of the endless amounts of cheating and words to the effect that when I begged him home, how wonderful this woman was (this was a game to see if I'd anty up the supply, but didn't know it then), and the absolute hell it put me through, would take days to write about.
I noticed what was going on inside me each time he cheated. Absolute fear. Fear of the loss of my home, credit cards and completely financial abandonment. He held this over my head.
He also used what he knew was my lack of self worth, to continue to tell me that HE paid for everything and if I left what would I DO? Worked like a charm. Kept sucking up. Towards the end of the seventeen years, actually two years prior, I began talking to a man who was my friend for eleven yeras. He too, was experiencing a "bad marriage". The thing that he projected to me the most was how committed, loving, churchgoing he was, how busy and wonderful his life was, except his wife who was a mental case. This projection of his was just what spoke to my vulnerability at the time. We began to plan escapes from our marraiges and I did walk out, although most of it was just talk initially because I was so fearful of what would happen, but the night my ex beat my son, I didn't care what was going on at the time..............
N was a like a breath of fresh air! Yes, calm, quiet, walked with confidence, exhuded it (this was arrogance I realize now, but not then), and he played on that. We did not become intimate until after I walked out of my marraige. He still had not walked out of his. His involvement with me, was JUST the thing I needed at the time, I thought, because I was so done with P and his abuse and he stalked me for months and months before ex BF came and swept him off his feet.....although she'd already been there behind the scenes even prior to my marraige being over.....anyway, I KNOW I was trying to get away from the pain of the abuse, the attempts on my life, the absolute fear of being destitute (true to his threats, he got canned from his money making job), etc. N helped me. Financially and emotionally for a very long time. He saw my vulnerability and I saw him as something completely different than what my P was. The difference that I see now is that N is extremely passive aggressive while P was not. It was one extreme, going to another in every conceivably abusive way.
I think you're right CZ. I think, after a time, when I slooooooooooooowly began to recognize that he was lying to me about what was going on in his marraige (he took several vacations with her and would call me while gone, professing his undying love), I worked very very hard. Even harder. I was already sucked in. Because of what I believed I saw of him in the beginning, because he was a tried and true friend to me for years, I never had any reason to believe he wasn't telling me the truth. It was devastating when I realized he was not. Who he really was.
I couldn't understand why he'd lie to me about it. I kept telling him, over and over, ad nauseum: "Hey, I want you to be happy!!! And if you're happy wtih your wife, YOU SHOULD BE????? Go back and work it out!!!!
I was willing to let him go to do this......over and over again. Then he'd just get angrier at me. "I'm not happy, what the hell makes you think I'm so happy?"
"Well for all the "unhappiness" you claim to have, you sure enjjoy being around this woman and spoiling her alot". So, go be happy!! If this woman does it for you, you have no BUSINESS going elsewhere and NO BUSINESS cheating on her!!!!!"
"I"M NOT HAPPY!"
Pissed him off more. can you explain that to me CZ?
The many times I've tried to employ NC with this man and have done so, has been amazing. It's like a slow, drawn out post mortem while I figure out my part and what voices of the past are speaking to me. Why do I feel this way? I KNOW what the reality is, why won't the emotions let go.
You mentioned something about your twenty-ninth wedding anniversary and where your hubby took you. That the infidel thing had been worked through. Yet he was on the phone with this woman, making her cry. How did it make YOU feel? Did you feel you'd won this man? Did you feel that after years and years of torture that his rejection of her was the redemption necessary even while it changed him NOT? What happened that you wound up divorced? Do you know whether or not he ever spoke of you to her in the worse terms possible (mine did). What do you think was the motive in taking you on this little whimsical vacation? His sadism was limited only to his OW, while he treated you normally? I'm not going to assume CZ, but I don't think N's are capable of treating ANYONE normally. By any stretch of the imagination.
I never "planned" to get involved with someone who was married. It evolved slowly over a long period of time. I was being primed through vulnerabilities and escaping my abusive marriage. N knew this. ANd he knew my spouse too. My kids, everything.
I grew up with an Nfather and Nmother. No surprise to anyone then that I didn't catch onto this N. They were far more aggressive and assertive in their abuse however and I never saw such passive aggressiveness as I have with this one. Ever. I never knew that anything could be so covert, subtle or undetectable. He pulled it off beautifully. HIs abuse is completely behind the doors of psychology and the mind, as well as the home.
CZ, there is only ONE thing I highly disagree with you about.
Being with an N is hardly conducive to a healthy lifestyle nor family situation. It festers the very bitternesses, rages, lies, etc, that come with having come into contact with even one for five minutes it seems. I can't tell you how GLAD I was that my ex BF came into the picture when she did..........and she did so PRIOR to my marriage being over, I was suspicious of course, as usual, but becaUse I wanted out, this time I kept quiet about it and chose a different option of leaving when the time was right for me to do so. That woman saved my life. That "OW" came along, and blew it all apart.....and it was the best thing that ever coudl have happened to me and to my kids. Now, mind you, the families were all upset about my departure and I made a really good illusion for years about how wonderful my spouse was. They knew NOTHING of the abuse that it was, nor what he did. To this day, they still cannot face it and I am to blame for what was said in the things he did to me and my children. I don't have one ounce of regret about it. I had two choices. I could have stayed with the donkeybutt and trivialized my children's need for a father whiel he remained abusive and N all way, P all way, or I could get out and show them that life could very well be different.
Recently, my eldest daughter told me that the best thing she thought I ever did was to "leave dad". For her and her siblings. It's been hard, it's been tough, it's been excrutiating at times, not only emotionally, but also financially.......but my kids are turning into incredible human beings. Something they might not otherwise be in a household full of abuse and consequent silence and white elephants about it. An N or P's true colors show once you refuse to be supply anymore. My ex has not seen his children in three years and has no desire to speak to them or see them at all. Yes, this HAS hurt them, but they have also received loads of therapy with regards to who he is and was. They KNOW this isn't their doing. It was HIS. And they know their Mom really loves them. It is something, by miracle, I've been able to give to my children that was never given to me and therein lies the biggest blessings.
But I'd be lying if I didn't say that I feel the pangs of loss from childhood. That I feel lonely a lot. That suffering from chronic illnesses makes it even more difficult. That financially, we struggle to make it through every single day. That, in some way, which is the traip I feel I'm in, I feel she has something more than I do. His love for her. This is the projection I believe he wants me to see so he gets what he wants out of me. I have been fighting VERY hard against that. But the fight is very slow and very VERY painful. Excrutiatingly painful. Because not only did I love one man whom I tried so hard with, but with two, having experienced both sides of the fence as wife and as OW, neither one has been fun, joyous, but enormously voiding of the person I once was. He seems to revel in the ego boost that I apparently am. I do not understand this given his attentiveness and spoiling of his wife where he appears to be happy.
Any thoughts or responses, CZ?
2cute
From: _CZ Sent: 10/13/2006 2:56 PM "I find your thoughts on this subject fascinating!" ~2Cute
Dear Cute,
My thoughts on the topic of the Other Woman have ranged from vitriolic, to compassionate, and oftentimes bittersweet. Fascinating is a new one for me, though. I'm no fan of the Infidelity-Method-to-Personal-Enlightenment and guess I might as well state that right up front. Infidelity is a mistake if our goal is empowerment and authenticity and there's no way around it. That's why it's a taboo that has lasted for as long as it has; and probably why it was even considered a taboo in the first place. I've never met anyone who said 'Thank GOD i had an affair!' <grin> It's always a trail of tears and increased suffering which hopefully allows us to see where the original split within ourselves might be. I do not pretend to be purely objective about this, Cute, but I'm certainly willing to share my observations and my struggle with an X's infidelity.
First of all, there are huge differences between each of us depending upon our core wounding and perhaps, the amount of recovery work we have done without using addictions or self-destructive escapes to relieve our emotional pain.
There are also huge differences between Narcissists who might be psychopathic (malignant) Ns, or perhaps exhibit Destructive Narcissistic Patterns. There are PD-duos and there are people without mental disorders who become involved in N-relationships. We can't assume our experience is replicated by anyone else's, but we can recognize our commonalities as individuals and in our relationships.
Someone who was raised in a moderately dysfunctional home will likely have greater emotional resiliency than someone whose childhood was traumatic through neglect or actual abuse. When I speak of Core Wounding, I am talking about our childhoods and any wounds we might still carry whether conscious or unconscious. This WILL have an impact on how we handle a N-relatioNship. It's not fair that some people have better boundaries against a narcissist's enmeshment, but some people do. What each of us has to do is take responsibility for who we are, where we are, and change our behavior from self-abusive to self-empowering. We are the only ones who can stop the dysfunction even IF we were set up for self-destructive patterns when we were innocent children. Bottom line? Our lives are Our responsibility.
"Yet he was on the phone with this woman, making her cry. How did it make YOU feel?"
Well actually I had no idea he was on the phone with her. He was a upper-level executive and leaving his work for several days would require a daily business meeting. Only once he made his decision to leave, did I learn of his continued affair despite his reassurance to me and to our treating counselor, that he intended to take responsibility for his behavior. He made those pledges not only to me, but to his adult children. This was a group rejection for the whole family whether people want to limit it to the betrayed spouse or not. He was rejecting EVERYONE.
"Did you feel you'd won this man?"
LOL...NO. Call me arrogant but it wasn't my job
to 'win' my husbaNd, jerk that he ended up being. There were definite moments in my healing when I was conscious of his ploy to pit me against her; but without childhood precedent to seek male validation because of a lack thereof, the impulse was momentary. I also have extremely intimate and strong relationships with my sisters and with other women, so that probably protected me from his attempts to push me headfirst into the cat-fight corral. I am positive my father's frequent phone calls alleviated residual anxieties I had about being rejected by a maN. That does not mean I wasn't furious about the OW who was fully aware of my thoughts, feelings and pain since she read my postings on the NPD forum. But I didn't view her as competition.
"Did you feel that after years and years of torture that his rejection of her was the redemption necessary even while it changed him NOT? "
My marriage was not physically violent and by many standards of my dear friends on forums, it was only mildly abusive. Though mild abuse was abusive enough to hurt my sense of self. But torture? I dare not even suggest my marriage was torturous since that minimizes the horror so many women live though on a daily basis. I am grateful to have the opportunity to articulate that point.
I had no investment in him rejecting the OW as meeting my criteria for his redemption. I kinda leave that job up to a power far greater than myself. Had he rejected her and still not changed his behavior (which would have included an essential degree of humility on his part!), my marriage would have ended anyway. That's my sense but I can't really know what I'd have done for sure. The deal is, even when shocked beyond belief by his behavior, I knew the fault was in him. That kept ringing in my ears from a childhood grounded in Ten Commandments. haha...but I still had normal emotional and psychological reactions to rejection, just like everybody else.
The Ten Commandments worked like brakes whenever I'd start sliding into self-blame for HIS behavior.
"What happened that you wound up divorced?"
He wanted to keep both of us and presented me with plausible scenarios for him being able to doing that. The guy's got balls, wouldn't ya say? Despite his lofty articulations about changing outdated human constructions limiting our spiritual development (i.e.: Marriage) I refused to be his 'spiritual companion' while she was his 'physical companion'. Talk about entitlement, eh?
I would not continue our relationship unless he was fidel. That's the why's of our divorce. He did NOT want a divorce but unless his tallywacker could stay in his britches, I would not keep our estate together. It cost us a fortune to end our partnership but o well...what's money compared my dignity and self-respect?
"Do you know whether or not he ever spoke of you to her in the worse terms possible (mine did)."
I know she was in counseling for her abusive marriage when they started an emotional affair (he was her boss). He then suggested CZ was abusive and she was ready to pounce on it sending him literature via the Home Fax about emotional abuse and the drama triangle with me as his abuser. So yes. He did speak to her about my defects according to his changed perceptions once he had 'attached' to her as a better source of supply. It's easy to see why I was no longer a reliable adoration-resource since my big foot was planted firmly on the floor with a wagging forefinger shaking in his face. ha!
"What do you think was the motive in taking you on this little whimsical vacation?"
As I mentioned before, the degree of conscious sadism will differ with the degree of pathological narcissism. I think in his own mind, he was doing the Right Thing and really, honestly and truly---trying to save his...gulp................estate and personal property (i.e.: me).
"His sadism was limited only to his OW, while he treated you normally?"
Now in this case, I'll go out on a limb and say his sadism is limited by the woman's resistance to being mistreated. If she feels badly about herself, she'll accept his mistreatment as being justified. That's why it is so very important that we learn to grieve despite the ignorant culture of arrogant-non-grieving that we live in today. We must grieve our losses because if we do not, any speck of unlove we have for ourselves will be increased to self-abuse by a narcissistic opportunist. That's how 'he or she' alleviates themselves of self-loathing. They see an opportunity when we are wounded and voila! Our suffering is increased exponentially.
Love and hugs,
CZ
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