This thread as originally posted in August 2006
Married means Married, Moron!
barbarany_9 (Original Message) Sent: 8/31/2006 12:29 AM (a friend of mine sent me this today... I am soooo tempted to send it to N2; don't worry I won't.... it was posted on Craigslist.com and I thought everyone here would get a kick out of it. Warning: crude language) - B.
Married means married, Moron
It‘s getting to the point where I can‘t even read those stupid personal ads anymore, not even for fun.
They‘re loaded with married people, bitching about their spouses, and looking for something "better".
I‘ve got a few things to tell you:
1. "She" is not the reason your marriage sucks. YOU are. If you spent half as much time paying attention to her as you do trolling CL for sluts, your marriage would be a whole hell of a lot better.
2. Yeah, yeah, we‘ve all heard it a thousand times. You‘re in a sexless marriage. First of all, that‘s probably a lie, because most cheaters are liars too. I‘m gonna let you in on a little secret, pal- if your wife isn‘t interested in sex, it‘s because you‘re not offering sex that‘s interesting. Married guys get awfully boring after a while. They do the same boring thing the same boring way every clucking time and they expect you to scream like a porn star. Seriously, you come home from work, totally ignore her while she chases the kids around for 4 hours, makes dinner, does the laundry, blah blah blah, and then you expect her to roll over with her legs open for another session of same-old same-old? When are you idiots going to learn that the best foreplay in the world for a woman is watching you take care of the kids, vacuum the floor, pick up the dog poo in the backyard. Or how about just listening when she talks? You know, it‘s not that clucking hard to stop thinking about y ourself for five minutes and hear what she has to say. Think about it- way back when, when you were getting your brains clucked out on a regular basis- what were YOU doing differently than you‘re doing now? Planning dates, telling her she looked nice, acting like you‘re happy to be with her? A thousand dollars says if you do that stuff again you‘ll get the same result.
3. Your kids are NOT the reason you‘re staying married. If you were THAT miserable, you‘d leave whether you had kids or not. If you‘re not getting a divorce it‘s because YOU DON‘T WANT TO. For whatever reason. At least be honest and don‘t try to feed people that tired bullshit line about staying married for the kids. Contrary to what you think, it doesn‘t make you look like a poor suffering but honorable victim. You obviously don‘t care enough about your kids to treat their mother with enough respect not to cheat on her, and you don‘t care about them enough to spend time with THEM instead of some cheap alternative supply, so cut it out with that crap. There is absolutely nothing honorable about putting your dick ahead of your kids. If you really really cared about them, you would put ALL your time and effort and money into saving the one thing that means most to them in the whole world- your marriage and their family. Otherwise you‘re full of shite.
4. We all know how bored you are. Poor you, someone should really come along to entertain you. What are you, clucking 12 years old? If you‘re bored with your marriage, it‘s because YOU‘RE BORING, and have you ever stopped to think that if you‘re bored, she probably is too. But instead of throwing a temper tantrum like a 2 year old, she‘s at home cleaning out the lint trap on the dryer and washing kool-aid off the kitchen floor. Yeah, she‘s having a clucking riot washing your underwear and cleaning up cat puke. Marriage is hard work. Hell, life is hard work. Grow the cluck up and take some responsibility for yourself. You have a brain, USE it. Put some thought into your marriage and some effort into your life and stop blaming her and being a baby because life isn‘t fun.
5. You‘re looking for someone "younger". Sure you are. Dickhead. You think you look the same as you did when you got married? I‘d bet not. Even if you do, you haven‘t spent the last 10 years having babies (the ones YOU wanted) and sacrificing your body for them. The next time you have to have someone stitch your donkeybutt together because your just pushed a watermelon out of your butt, then you can sqwauk. If you ever spend 9 months with your belly stretched to obscene proportions, and manage to look exactly the same as you used to 6 weeks later, then you can bipch about how she‘s not attractive anymore. Until then, shut the cluck up. You have no concept of what she has sacrificed to give you the children you claim to love. You really think she wants varicose veins and stretch marks and saggy boobs? Get real. What she wants is a man who understands and values WHY she has varicose veins and stretch marks and saggy boobs. She wants a man who loves her because she was willing to ma ke those sacrifices with her own body because she loves HIM. Instead, you criticize and go running off with the first perky 25 year old who gives you the time of day. donkeybutt.
6. And finally, if you‘re cheating on your wife, there‘s something wrong with YOU. If you‘re not happy with your marriage, exactly how do you think clucking some sput is going to fix that? Exactly how is that going to make anyone happy? Have you ever actually heard of adultery working out really well for everyone involved? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you‘re going to be the exception to that rule? If so, you are delusional and you need professional help. Affairs are disasters- not some of the time, not most of the time, ALL OF THE TIME. You guilt will drive you crazy. Someone WILL find out. You will NOT be able to keep up the lies and the deception. And it will all lead up to a disaster of epic proportions, which leads me to Lucky #7.
7. Here‘s what you can expect in the wake of your little cluck-fest:
Divorce- this is where you lose everything- your wife, your house, half your income and possessions, possibly your job if you‘re stupid enough to be clucking around with a co-worker, your kids- EVERYTHING. You will LOSE IT ALL.
Exposure- this is where everyone finds out what a scumbag you are. And they WILL find out. Your boss, your co-workers, your friends, your family, HER family, your neighbors, the parents of your kids‘ friends, everyone at your church. They WILL find out. Why? Because your now ex-wife will tell them. She will probably tell everyone she knows, and everyone you know, and she will feel good doing it. Consider yourself lucky if she doesn‘t rent a billboard. Otherwise, all bets are off. Be prepared.
Your Kids- this is where you totally lose the respect of your kids, and you deserve to lose it. They will realize in pretty short order that you didn‘t care enough about them to keep your clucking pants on. They will see their mother cry and they will hate you for it. They will end up shuttling back and forth between their home and your apartment, and they will hate you for it. Every time they have to tell someone that their parents are divorced, they will hate you for it. And God forbid you decide to "introduce" them to your shiny new soulmate/fuckbuddy, they will REALLY hate you for that. If your kids are really young, you have a little time before all this shite hits the fan, but be warned, it‘s coming. They will forever see you as the moron who broke up their family. They will know that you can‘t be trusted, that you are weak and immoral and selfish. And they‘ll figure it out all by themselves, even if you never talk to them about it. Because your kids are smarter than you are at this point.
So, go ahead and whine your pathetic bullshit about how you‘re a victim and your wife is a horrible shrew. Do your best to convince yourself that you didn‘t have any choice and your wife "drove you to it." Start with the rationalizations and justifications now, you‘re going to need a lot of them. Remember that the best defense is a good offense and start a mental list of all the ways your wife is deficient. Make sure to re-write the history of your marriage so that you can say that you were miserable from the first day. Be sure to tell your wife that you love her, you‘re just not "in love" with her anymore. Deal with your guilt by lashing out at everyone around you. Above all, take no responsibility for any problems YOU may have that caused you to be such a spineless bazturd in the first place.
Congratulations, you‘ve just joined the Adulterers Club.
From: PracticalJude Sent: 8/31/2006 4:20 AM So, go ahead and whine your pathetic bullshit about how you‘re a victim and your wife is a horrible shrew. Do your best to convince yourself that you didn‘t have any choice and your wife "drove you to it." Start with the rationalizations and justifications now, you‘re going to need a lot of them. Remember that the best defense is a good offense and start a mental list of all the ways your wife is deficient. Make sure to re-write the history of your marriage so that you can say that you were miserable from the first day. Be sure to tell your wife that you love her, you‘re just not "in love" with her anymore. Deal with your guilt by lashing out at everyone around you. Above all, take no responsibility for any problems YOU may have that caused you to be such a spineless bazturd in the first place.
Title: Watching an N detach?
N's D&D prep guide?
She made me do it?
(I could go on and on here...lol)
Love,
Jude
From: amethystshope Sent: 8/31/2006 6:33 AM I totally enjoyed reading this...just perfect. I just wish I could send it to the Ex and his OW/wife because this is basic to the course Adultry 101. But, the very sad fact remains, they think they have done nothing wrong and are very happy even tho my kids want nothing to do with them. Of course that is my fault...which could be added to the Adulters Club Rules.
Amethyst
From: 2cute4words1963 Sent: 8/31/2006 8:53 AM Barb,.............
I so hesitate to post to this post.......not because I don't agree.......
Just wished to elaborate upon the adultery part, particularly with N's.......
Nothing you've said here is at all untrue and the way it was written, partly very humorous, even while sad.......
I think a level of honesty is missing in a lot of marriages, not just ones with N's.
My exP/N cheated on me more than I could ever say. But in the end, the OW wasn't to blame and she wasn't the idiot, it was ME!!!! THEY WERE LUCKY WHEN HE CAME BACK TO ME!! Truthfully, I believe OW's catch A LOT of the blame, when truthfully, they're just a symptom of a deeper problem in the marriage. My marriage was so sick and I was in such denial, that I used my religious virtue to try to keep the marriage intact after one of his liasions. We went to couples counseling, therapy with the Pastor of our church......and of course, the truth was never told. Ever. The cheating, of course, happened again. Neither of us was willing, at the time, to truly look into ourselves and heal anything and truthfully, I didn't mind doing everything in the house, when my ex P/N made enough money for me to be quite happy shopping my life away and never having to worry about food on the table. Just as there are many men willing to go out and find the first Perky chick they can find, there are many more women willing to overlook it for financial survival reasons. AND SO IS HE!! I haven't met a man yet who would be excited to leave his marriage and lose half his income, house, etc, including my ex P/N. Don't kid yourself, there's plenty of married woman who carry on their own liasions outside their marriages too, they're just more discreet about it.
When I wanted to leave my marriage, prior to leaving it, I sat down with the Pastor from my church. I struggled with the term "adultery" and what it meant in my own marriage, as I felt this was used loosely and way too often as to appear to be just a label in terms. There are MANY creative ways to lose one's honor and integrity, but this society is repulsed by "adultery" and yet not by a very poor, very bad marriage, which can also ruin the lives of the children involved. The countless marriages I've seen stay together for the children, men AND women who do as such, is the biggest of all lies. It's not the kids, it's the finances, the greed, the utter selfishness. Some people are actually QUITE cozy with dysfunction as a sacrifice not to lose their standard of living. ANyway, this Pastor shared what adultery meant. It wasn't limited to just an act of sexual deviance OUTSIDE of a marriage, but also within it.....God meant for sex to be shared as a bond between two people. If that has stopped, the marriage is adulterated. If the emotional intimacy is stopped, the marriage is thus adulterated. Kinda hard to have sex and intimacy with someone you can't STAND right?
People sometimes grow apart. The idea is to recognize it when it happens and do something about it. Therapy, if the two persons involved wish to make the marriage work, or get OUT amicably. I think after my experiences and my observances with others, trying to do that with an P or N is close to impossible unless you're able to do it in a way that keeps them under the gun, so to speak. BUT, I have seen marriages come to an end, and the people involve survive it quite well, as well as sharing their children. I don't believe divorce is at all "dysfunctional", but I do believe living in a marriage full of lies is. One is better off out of it. If the marriage is full of lies, WITHOUT an outside influence, there is no integrity left. ANd that is very sad. I've seen this happen too.
In this society, when a man cheats, he's the hero, she's the alternative supply. I feel sorry for women labeled that way. And it is sad that he is let go of the responsibility as to what he did, simply becuase he goes back to his wife.
I can honestly tell you that my ex's last OW, who was my best friend for seventeen years, did the best thing for me anyone could have done. She saved my life. And her life with him is no better than mine was, in fact, it might just be worse, and they still remain together to this day. I wish them well and am VERY glad this man is NOT in my life and has no interest in being involved with my children's lives either. There was a time she spoke with me over IM. I THANKED HER for taking him on. She helped to free me with her involvement with him.
Just another perspective, that's all. I know a lot will not agree with me, and that's okay.
I really appreciate this post.
2cute
From: neveragain Sent: 8/31/2006 9:29 AM LOL.......Would the next male victim whose marriage sucks please stand up?
Loved it...thanks for the post!
Neveragain
From: foofoogirliegirl007 Sent: 8/31/2006 1:53 PM Right on!!!
And, that can apply to women equally as well (like the woman who said her "interests are sex and money").
From: _CZ Sent: 8/31/2006 2:24 PM "In this society, when a man cheats, he's the hero, she's the whoorrreee."~2Cute
I dunno, 2Cute. Maybe that's how it used to be but it's not that way anymore. Seems to me in these days of moral relativity: when a man cheats, he's an evolutionary purist; when a woman cheats, she's liberating her repressed-sexuality.
I know there are women who've been taken advantage of by nasty-meN who see her poor boundaries as an opportunity. And that's pitiful. That's sad. Even if she has NO boundaries, it's still not justifiable to seduce her without conscience. I realize how seductive any N worth his salt can be, though. Get one of those guys staring in a woman's eyes over a romantic dinner, checking for her vulnerabilities and just how FAR he can make her go...and it's no surprise to me she'll drop her panties before she's even paid for the meal. Especially if she sees him as a valuable prize fulfilling whatever her agenda (unconscious or conscious) might be.
Does that make her a whooorrreee and him a hero?
Heaven's no. In fact, I detest the word 'alternative supply' and never use it. Never. My obvious agenda is to remind women they are more than that. Part of my discomfort stems from a rather painful lecture I attended which declared homemakers like myself to be casting a rod for their keep. How's that for a twist on the old Madonna-alternative supply theory? The truth is: All women are alternative supply if you ask a pathological narcissist; be that narcissist female or male. They dichotomize women like flat characters pigeon-holed into Either/Or polarities. Be wary of those who limit the definition of any woman; but also be wary of a personal desire to rescue OWs. We must hold women to the same standards we hold men. Otherwise, we are betraying women by suggesting they are weaker and therefore, less responsible for their actions. They won't heal that way. They'll remain victims of their own socialization; i.e. perceptions.
No man in this whole world is so seductive he can smile a woman into bed if she is not willing to slide beneath him. That's where she MUST take responsibilty for herself and FIX whatever got her to do something like that in the first place. I have a few friends who've had affairs. The curious thing is that they counseled with me before having the affair! (you can well imagine what I told them! You can also know how persuasive I am since they yielded to 'instinct' and had the affair anyway.)
Today? Well, not one of these women defends her choice as being 'right'. It ALWAYS ended tragically and was 100% painful once the initial mania wore off. They still talked with me as their 'good friend' who really did love them because I told them "NO". And you know what else? I've never let them off the hook by saying 'they couldn't help themselves 'cuz he was just so powerful and all.'
Their healing process demands taking responsibility for their 'weaknesses' as the only path of true healing. Even when their X-lover is easily defined as an obvious N. After the affair the truth of his narcissism is obvious: She is suffering and he's not. C'est la vie.
Constantly blaming the maN for being at fault will not empower her the next time she is faced with the same dilemma...the same feelings...the same false promises and the same lies. As we've learned on WoN, getting out of the repetition cycle is essential because we WILL recreate original traumas trying to change the results. The only way to stop being abused over and over is to change our behavior. In other words, take charge of ourselves by living UP TO our principles...not sacrificing principles when our brain and heart tell us there's another way to feel good about ourselves. (instant gratification for sure and O MY how we can lie to ourselves when we want something!)
We start thinking we're the exception to the rule...aren't WE special? Nobody on this planet has ever felt the tugs of True Love like we are feeling. So we ignore those antiquated people forcing rules of conduct on us and do what we want no matter the cost to others! Most of us know that kind of thinking whether 'infidelity' was how we betrayed ourselves or not.
One thing seems to be consistent in spiritual traditions focused on 'not doing harm to others' and that is the principle of Fidelity. It seems to also be true that this principle is very difficult for human beings to live UP TO. But it is a 'higher' principle and perhaps breaking a commitment of fidelity explains the soul damage. It's like a wound that never heals until we hold ourselves accountable for the harm we have caused in other people's lives and in our own!
Folks who are truly remorseful heal from this experience, oftentimes becoming more compassionate and self-loving than they ever were. Why? Because they discovered who they really were by taking responsibility for their mistakes.
Infidelity IS a mistake. I think there are certain immutable laws which always end up hurting our society if individuals within that society do not surrender instincts/impulses to higher principles and values of spirit.
with Love,
CZ
From: 2cute4words1963 Sent: 9/1/2006 8:24 AM CZ,
I don't disagree with what you're saying.......
But don't you think that a lot of infidelity could be avoided if the parties in a marraige admit to unhappiness and thus, as a result DO something about it?
I don't think this society encourages people to be honest about their feelings within marriage. I know it's not just N/P's who cheat.
I think a higher value and spirituality would also mean being honest with oneself enough to go to one's spouse and TELL THEM one is miserable??? Then take steps from there, no matter what they are??
I'm not against divorce. I think if two people are really unhappy, there SHOULD be therapy and if that doesn't work out, a divorce IS an option. Granted, I think many marriages could be saved with therapy, but many more cannot. I think the idea is to be honest about it.
Lots of folks feel they cannot be. Or that they have to sacrifice something of themselves that a healthy marriage would not to stay together (sex, intimacy,etc).
I've seen so many many unhappy marriages. And when I have, it just seems so unnecessary. Marriage IS NOT easy, I know.......it's hard work, but I do beileve it CAN be happy, providing the parties involved are honest with one another, even about misery. Can't fix it until one can recognize and acknowledge it. Isn't, in essence what it is to have a higher value and moral base, even if it DOES mean divorce? Providing there is honesty, I'm a very tolerant person.
You gave a VERY good explanation CZ and provoked thought for me as you always do!
Thanks.
2cute
From: _CZ Sent: 9/2/2006 2:51 PM "I don't think this society encourages people to be honest about their feelings within marriage. I know it's not just N/P's who cheat"~2Cute
You're so right about that! Our society does not TEACH people to be honest about their feelings; though we do encourage people to keep FEELING. How can we be honest about something we don't even understand?
If there is anything our media-propaganda machine encourages people to do, it's: FEEL. What we don't do well is think rationally by connecting our feelings to our brains. In fact, media culture hopes we never do connect feelings to brains because if we did, we'd never buy the products they suggest will make us FEEL better. Instant happiness via another acquisition.
People with conscience most generally feel remorse for their affair once they witness a partner's suffering; or empathize with the pain in their children's hearts. Ns and Ps do not care. In fact, they justify their behavior any way they can. Usually, it means we are accused of being Moral Overlords telling THEM what to do with their genitals, LOL. Well, the deal is: Ns and Ps do not have the same conscience guiding their actions as most people. We 'know' our behavior is wrong--not because somebody told us it was wrong, but because we intuit our behavior is wrong.
It is important to feel and it's important to understand feelings as an essential aspect of being human. Feelings are an essential adjunct to cognitive processing. But it is CRITICAL to use our brains when making choices and not be so narcissistic as to believe the way we feel is a good compass for moral responsibility. I think this is where most of us make mistakes! If we have lost feel-good-feelings for a lifelong partner and discover titillating feelings for an alternative source for sex, we might believe our 'feelings' are intuitively directing us to do something we know to be egotistical, not Spiritual. If we use our brains, we will know that the blissful feeling we have is not love! But what the hell do we know about love? In a global culture like we have created today, love comes in a box or a bottle or a new pair of shoes or even a shiny new car.
We are an emotionally illiterate species and we'd better get learning the difference between feelings and intuition darn quick because we are hurting our children for generations yet to come when we satisfy selfish emotions in the Now. Feelings take us down a dangerous road pretending to ourselves we are 'Following our Bliss' which is ultimately narcissistic, isn't it? The still small voice within always includes the impact of personal choices generations yet to come.
"I've seen so many many unhappy marriages"
Me, too. And maybe it goes back to people basing happiness on how they feel??? Marriage becomes a shallow construct if we cannot connect to higher values and meaning while Growing UP with a partner who farts under the blankets. People lack a true sense of what spirituality means---how to commit to anyone or anything---how to delay gratification---how to stay focused on joint goals. We've lost our hope and faith in anything other than ourselves and how sad is that? Loyalty and Compassion become characteristics of the gullible and marriage is assumed to be nothing more than Control over personal resources.
Despite it all, there are good marriages. Maybe we can discern what makes those marriages different from post-modern 'companionship relationships' replicating business agreements; i.e.: I'll work for you as long as it meets my needs but if I get a better offer elsewhere, I'll leave. It's like we've reduced our most spiritual human constructions into financially based organizations with a tit-for-tat mentality. Sad really. I think too many people these days are spiritually anorexic and don't know HOW to find satisfaction and meaning in their lives.
Love,
CZ
From: 2cute4words1963 Sent: 9/2/2006 10:55 PM CZ,
I see a very, VERY interesting and profound perspective and intuitiveness to your voice.
I've been married for 23 years now. I have six kids. I worked my ASS off for sixteen (seventeen? *L*) of those yeras FILLED with P/N lies and deceptions..........
But I had my own too. ...........I was so terribly unhappy............
I began to feel as if a legal prostitute, and not a wife who wanted to share a deeper spiritual level with my husband......
The things that were important to me, I gave up, sacrificing, believing it was "spiritual" in nature ie: when my husband needed to get laid, knowing I didn't WANT to be laid with him, yet was somehow "doing my spiritual duty", it lost its complete meaning for me...........but the money was good, yes? It was for me. It certainly was, therefore, i was willing to give up that part of my "feeling" self, in order for a "spiritual" higher power and sacrifice that said what I was doing was nothign more than a lie.........
Consensual sex began to take on the hues of emotional rape.
I couldn't be honest with myself for YEARS about that. Each time, during sex, I just checked out. Too many marriages now, have two people who lie to themselves about a "spiritual" higherness, etc, that entraps them to having sex with someone once in a blue moon or not at all. To me, sexu isn't everything, not at all, but it IS a key bond in marriage. I know one N couple right now, who share separate bedrooms and haven't had sex in five years??? Does this outline the perfect spiritual marraige?
I think it's okay to feel. I have spent my entire life NOT feeling. My therapist jumped up for joy when I actually showed joy, sadness and intensive anger in one of my sessons. I'd spent my life distraction from my "feelings"...........the very thing that was to help me break through to healing in the first place.
CZ, I really respect what you're saying and I don't completely disagree with you on its premise AT ALL, BUT, I do disagree with the feelings part. No, it shouldn't be ONLY feelings, but I've noticed while purging my past, A LOT of feeling is coming up that I've stuffed and stuffed for YEARS and YEARS. Sure wish I hadn't.
Had i not spent so much time stuffing it, I might have been in a place to recognize it immediately, FEEL The emotion and realize that there is a balance between heart and mind.
But I also keep in mind that heart is the compass.
Heart IS the compass.
2cute
From: recoveringfromheartbreak Sent: 9/3/2006 9:38 AM Yeah, men are donkeybutts when they commit adultery. Especially when you figure they are also Ns. All adulterers are selfish donkeybutts, and it hit an especially raw spot reading this:
"So, go ahead and whine your pathetic bullshit about how you‘re a victim and your wife is a horrible shrew. Do your best to convince yourself that you didn‘t have any choice and your wife "drove you to it." Start with the rationalizations and justifications now, you‘re going to need a lot of them. Remember that the best defense is a good offense and start a mental list of all the ways your wife is deficient. Make sure to re-write the history of your marriage so that you can say that you were miserable from the first day. Be sure to tell your wife that you love her, you‘re just not "in love" with her anymore. Deal with your guilt by lashing out at everyone around you. Above all, take no responsibility for any problems YOU may have that caused you to be such a spineless bazturd in the first place."Because that's EXACTLY what my wife did after she left. After 13 years of friendship, 3 years as a couple and 16 months of marriage until I put pressure on for her to start finding some fulfillment in doing something with her life aside from wishing I was home all the time when I was running my business supporting her. And we had no kids. And she was able bodied with me being an amputee. Not trying to get a pity party going here, but when I consider that part... I am disabled and was working to make a better life for us and she could not recognize my love in doing that and would never find something to fulfill herself that could also help us support ourselves... well I guess that's what I got marrying an actress.
How would people tailor this message to female cheaters who set up another guy to take care of them before they abandon their husbands and blame them for everything they were unhappy about in their lives while hiding their affairs? My ex was shocked when I confronted her on everything I found out after some digging and blaming myself and almost having a nervous breakdown from it until someone in an infidelity support group suggested I read up on NPD and then all the pieces fell into place.
From: 2cute4words1963 Sent: 9/3/2006 9:56 AM (((((((((((( Recovering ))))))))))
You asked an EXCELLENT question!!!!!!
I'm sorry for your pain through your experience.
I would like to share something with you.
There are MANY women N's. They diguise themselves MUCH better, I think, than N men. They adhere to a role of caretaker, until they can snatch a man to take care of THEM. I've seen that soooooooooooooooo many times. People have special references for this such as: Settling. That's the biggie I've heard most often in justifying a woman's reasons for a man to take care of her and using it to her advantage. I knew two women in the past who were out looking for men to "provide" for they and their children from previous relationships. This kind of thing is easy to spot as well in the online dating scene too. One profile right after another. It was AMAZING to me. They also like to hide out in church. Church is a GREAT place for a female N to go. Why? Welp, easy, there is GREAT encouragement for a woman to be A. Submissive- N language? Yeppers, until she captures him. B. women are "nurturers" and stay home and take care of the children. C. GOD HATES DIVORCE! Further entrapping a good Christian man into a life of living hell because of his spiritual convictions and what society says Men are suppose to do for women in their marriages and especially so within the context of a church member situation. Also that he is the "provider" and in a lot of churches, this is what equates to being a man, as well as in society.
Many N women also give the impression (and know that men fall for this every single time) that they are independent and want a life separate from him, yet with him, you know, growing "together". As soon as the ring is on her finger, all of that is nothing but old worn out BS and she takes on another persona altogether.........
I understand what you're saying and I validate your experience. I don't believe for one minute that all men are donkeybutts, nor do I believe for one minute that all men are N's. I don't believe the same of women either, but I DO believe that there are more women N's in society as well, weaing better masks, than any man would care to admit too, because it's just not socially "acceptable" to say you're a man and live with abuse, is it? Which makes a man's healing process all the more difficult and arduous of a task.
I respect that you are trying. I had one man on another board once, tell me that when he saw my posts and pain that he felt like apologizing to me for his gender. I feel the same here right now. You are NOT alone. And I appreciate you sharing your perspective very much!
2cute
From: _CZ Sent: 9/3/2006 10:05 AM Hey! It's good to know we have a few men left on WoN, so brava for posting your experience as a 'betrayed man'.
I called the OW's husband on the telephone after learning about their affair. ha! He was shocked about his wife's new 'brass ring' because of course, my hubbie was her boss and had a fairly high-profile job at the time. My X has since morphed into someone more compatible to who she is; he's certainly is NOT the guy she prolly thought she was snagging. Therein lies the justice I suppose. He was who he was because of his partnership with me...and now he's who he is because of his partNership with her. Two very different incarNations in the same body.
This is just a thought with no academic subtantiation but I wonder if women's new-found status/liberation means we'll see increasing numbers of NPD females? Because of social restrictions and taboos, a woman might have been restrained from getting what she wanted through overtly narcissistic means?? We kinda talked about this at the first of the thread when there used to be a double standard (men were 'allowed' and women were 'held responsible'). Now that affairs are not stigmatized in the same way, women are free to aggressively pursue sexual liaisons the same way men have done in the past. You know what? This is not progress.
I hope anyone on our forum who has had an affair, does not feel attacked by this discussion. Infidelity does not mean someone is NPD, nor Psychopathic. We must consider far more than infidelity to even suggest our partner is pathologically disordered. For many of us though, Infidelity was the Last Straw.
Love,
CZ
From: recoveringfromheartbreak Sent: 9/3/2006 10:37 AM As I spent all of last year (and some of this year) forensically trying to understand how I walked into this nightmare, of marrying someone I loved so much but discovering she was not who I thought she was thanks to what she projected when we were together, I came across this e-mail message from 2001 when we first got together, graduating from friendship into a relationship (and we got engaged right after this also):
"hi! I'm glad I don't have to slow down, Im sorry I got so emotional this morning. There's just so many things I want to do - and all of them are with YOU ...so even though this morning I got upset, just know that you are the one I want to do all these things with and it will just take time.
I am ready to be everything I believe you want and we just need to be content that we found each other and enjoy ourselves until we can get everything we want (wedding, bigger place to live and start thinking about family)...we have the rest of our lives, and sometimes I can't help it if I get a little impatient.
For now though, I know we need to concentrate on work and what we are doing out here and then all the best things we are looking forward to will come - and come a little easier, than rushing, u know? Well, your copy is running, I will come back before I pick you up to run the fourth. I love you so much honey, my life finally feels complete w ith you in it too! I never knew love like this, I never felt like I was perpetually on cloud 9! I love u with all my heart and can't wait to be with you for Christmas and New Year's, no matter what we do or where we go. I got what I want from Santa this year ....the best man I have ever known, and he loves me!!!! What a Christmas! You have given me hope and I can squash the Scrooge inside of me that used to dread holidays (i think you know what i mean Even though there is crazyness with my family -- you and yours more than make up for it. i love you i love you i love you!!!!"
That middle paragraph is the one that still chills me the most... "I am ready to be everything I believe you want". And I stumbled blindly through it never having understood her pulling my strings through the years as anything more than fear or confusion from passing from friendship into being a couple because I did always love her. She was ready to be what she believed I wanted because at that time she had broken up with her boyfriend, had no job, and no place of her own to live since they lived together. She also told me she "had done bad things in the past but had changed and I helped make her a better person" I "would never be alone" again. I know I am not a perfect person but hearing those things you always hoped to hear from someone you idealized and loved for so many years... it was like being in a dream. And there was no abuse in our marriage, no horrible arguments other than those I normally associated with couples dealing with everyday pressures related to paying bills, getitng into a good place to live, working together... until the end when she dumped everything on me about how unhappy she was, how she could not see having children with me, GRASPING for anything she could to make me feel like her leaving wasmy fault, and I believed it was because I trusted her and someone you trust would not lie to you right?
Until I found out about the guy who she had met 3 weeks prior to her dumping these revelations on me and his secret email love notes and taking her to Las Vegas with him when she lied and said she needed a weekend away with her girlfriends. She was setting him up to be her next rescue net since the pressure was on from me after the honeymoon was over to start dealing with life maturely and responsibly.
"I am ready to be everything I believe you want"
I know now that they cannot make flags that red but I knew nothing about NPD back then or what this really meant. Now I do and it has been like waking up from a dream into a living nightmare with all your faith and beliefs shaken in a way you don;t think you will ever revcover from when you discover the person you loved never relaly loved you because if they did, how could they do that to you? But time does heal all wounds I guess, it will be two years this November since she transferred her feelings for me to the guy she met and had to run off with after only knowing him for several weeks and our divorce will be official soon. They are now moving city to city together like drifters and from what I have witnessed I know she is both emotionally and mentally unstable, who lives their life like that and throws away someone who married them for that kind of instability? She is like a lost little girl running from herself. I know it's NPD because the key factors are lack of consicence and no remorse for how they cluck other people over they have been involved with. And it still breaks my heart because I did love her and although I did idealize her I think I did accept her faults as well and would have continued to, but she was just to weak and lazy to do the work all relationships depend upon during the good and the bad.
People tell me I should be thankful and I am lucky this happened sooner than later or before we had kids... I cannot believe anyone is "lucky" or should be "thankful" for having everything they believed about love, commitment and marriage turned into a nightmare because of mental instability like this. Those who have never been betrayed this way by an N, especially in marriage, will never understand.
From: almosthealed2006 Sent: 9/3/2006 11:13 AM Hi Recovering, and welcome to WON! Thank you for giving all of us the "guy" side....we can be over-estrogenized here....through no fault of our own...just that we are mostly female here...and it is so good to "hear" from a man....I am sorry you were pooped on....we all have been....so, you are in good company, my friend!
I didn't know about NPD when I first met the Lord of the Flies....his favorite line?? "tell the truth, but don't tell all you know".....
now I shudder when I really READ that ....there's so much more to the lines like that...with an N, there's always the hidden side, the hidden hand holding the weapon to stab you with it...at the given planned prepared and re-hearsed time...Yes, they cheat, they lie, they steal, and then they blame you.....You are not her victim though....because you saw through her....now, you are RECOVERING....and that's a good and healthy spot to be....I pray your heart and soul heals up....and you find someone wonderful and loving who really "gets" how lucky she is!!
love, healing
From: 2cute4words1963 Sent: 9/3/2006 12:05 PM This thread is REALLY provoking some emotional garbage for me, some good, some bad.
I WAS the OW for five years in this relationship. We were friends prior to this affair for eleven years, close friends for two prior to ever becoming involved. He held a position of authority and I "admired" him. He gave an EXCELLENT projection for years and years of this happily married, committed husband, father, church goer, ever so busy with his life and family..........UGH!!!
He has gotten progressively worse over the last eight years. I mean WORSE.
I don't know how to verbalize my involvement. I'm trying, but there are so many emotions attached to it all that run VERY deep.........
The biggest mindscrew of all of this is that I feel I cannot and do not have the right to grieve what I thought was BECAUSE I"m the OW. I NEVER had a RIGHT in the first place to him. EVER. WHen we became intimate, I was already separated from my P spouse, after sixteen/seventeen yeras of extreme abuse. Looking back now, this N comforted me and thus, won my dependence. He also trashed his own marriage, promised he was living, couldn't stand the bipch, whatever........yet would jet off on vacations wtih her and lie about it, or blame me prior to leaving..........why did he do this? EACH TIME, it was ALWAYS my fault!!! I felt like he was either trying to win her or control me or punish me????
I never liked the situation and as time went on, three yeras into the relationship, I began to wake up and realize this man was NEVER going to leave his wife and suspected after visits out to his home, that she too, was also N.
He did this to me recently again. I cried all day. Distraught. He seemed "overjoyed" at my pain and I saw this through a smirk on his face at my tears. He ran off with her to some clucking church camp with the kids in tow and of course, I haven't heard from him since. I knew this was coming. I sense it when it's about to happen. There are definitely signs. This usually happens after I say or do something he doesn't like. I feel pounded upon constantly.
Then I try to win back his love. It's almost as if "Now, if you WANT me, you need to behave yourself because SHE will always be there".
This time I said I could take no more of it. I couldn't take another "vacation" that felt so coldly put upon my heart and witness his pure pleasure at my anger and/or pain.
My thoughts this weekend are pretty primitive and I keep quiet about it. I want him to SUFFER at her hands, as he always claims, and live his little hellish victim life. He bitches about EVERYTHING. But always wants to give me the illusion that suddenly he was so much happier with HER. I was knocking myself OUT to please him for YEARS and he'd bipch that she'd not cook for him, no sex (five years no sex), she was always raging, prudish.........and he's right, she IS those things.......he always bitched that it had to be all about her, without recognizing that it's all about HIM. That what they do over there is trade of manipulations. It's cyclically sick!
I got on the sick train. Everytime he does this to me, and then abandons me, he gives me the illusion, ALWAYS before he goes that things are just bliss and that I was dumped so he could go work his marriage. WHAT A BUNCH OF shite!!!
BUt it still sits there in my heart like a dead weight!!!
I'm frustrated by this because I was NEVER comfortable being an OW and I told him so many times. Of course, this was wtih promises to get out and/or constant wheeling and dealing with buying me things or doing things for me, or spending extra time with me..........baiting me, of course. I ALWAYS fell for it.
I don't want to anymore. I'm so confused, hurting so much, I don't know WHAT to do??? I've been afraid to express myself here, my true emotions, define everything for myself as well as his tactics and WHY I respond to it, becuase I AM the OW in this situation. I BELIEVED him when he said he loved me and wanted to be with me. Felt sorry for his lame ass stories about how bad his marriage was. He even brought over a cut up shirt once that she had ripped to shreds. She has scratched him to leaving scars on his hands during fights........I bought all that shite, hook line and sinker!
They do not sleep in the same bed. They have separate bedrooms in different parts of the house. She refuses to have sex with him. He says he doesn't want sex with her. I asked him "WHY don't you go to therapy with your wife and try to work things through?" I encouraged this MANY times........"Because it wouldn't change anything..........
She went on vacation to a church camp with her kids for a week. They both love the supply that flows liberally from being apart of a church where there aren't that many members and, of course, are actively involved in everything from the church board (which he sits on), the band and choir, the children's programs........anyway, she goes away with the kids for a week and during that ENTIRE week, he avoided something I had wanted to do with him for FIVE YEARS and that only happened once. Sleeping in the same bed. HE DIDN"T WANT TOO!! AT ALL!
Recently, he invited me to go to a conference with him this month. He told me there is only one bed. That we'd have to sleep in it together.........."Unless you prefer to have two beds........." *L*.............the sad part is that if I even entertained the notion of going I WOULD have wanted TWO BEDS!!! I knew he didn't want to sleep with me. There are MORE than one quirky things about him.......I didn't feel comfortable saying yes and said no. I don't feel safe with this man AT ALL. Prior to his leaving with his wife to this family church camp, he called me and told me he loved me very much and that he'd make it up to me when he got back. ARE YOU SERIOUS????
It was so insane. It was just so insane. All of it HAS been insanity. He speaks of things that have done nothing but drop my jaw. The negative, nasty little things that he does and says about everyone. It makes me think that perhaps he is different with her and he has ALWAYS given me this impression. That she holds a key to him that I do not and I'm forever trying to find out what it is. When I've heard him speak to her, he is one of the MOST insecure men I've ever seen. It's almost as if she is mommy. An authority figure, spiritually and emotionally. It's so FAKE, it's INCREDIBLY obvious!!! I can't even tell you how obvious it is! The last time I heard him speak with her however, it was very business like. Unless she wants something, then everything changes. Suddenly, she comes on sweet and he goes back sweet.......right before vacation time too *L*..........those vacations she wants are VERY expensive!
Other than one night at the beach, I haven't had a vacation in five years.
I see more now than I ever have. But why do I feel SO sad and ANGRY? I feel SO STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is not one person who wouldn't say that an OW IS stupid or a alternative supply or some other unkind word. I don't like what I've done, but I have to understand the dynamics in both roles. Where is this COMING FROM that I would compromise my own integrity? Why is this a competition..........I see some signs that this N enjoyed the competition .........in that he made it that way for me wtih extreme subtleties in actions and words that always said I could not be as good as she, yet she was an absolute bipch????
I'm sorry, I'm just trying to sort through all of this. It's just so hard. I feel such intense pain for so many many reasons.
2cute
From: 2cute4words1963 Sent: 9/3/2006 12:17 PM I would like to share something else too.
This N was REALLY good. I believe he's an alcoholic. Binge drinker.
I believe I'm one WITH him and not without him?????
When we first started having our "lunches", he would bring a bottle of wine with him. Every single DAY! I cooked, he brought wine. Now, prior to N, I was a FIEND about NOT drinking!! I come from a family of alcoholics and my ex P is horribly alcoholic and drug addicted. Admittedly, if exHP and I went somewhere on holiday, I'd have a glass of wine or two at dinner but that was IT. Never anywhere else.
So I started drinking with this N. Everyday. EXCEPT when I wasn't with him.......weekends, never touched a drop. Evenings when he was at home with the wife, not a drop........
I found I enjoy wine. But I also found that when I'm not WITH HIM, I have no desire to drink the bottle amount I do when I'm with him????? It seems to me that this was the only way to "tolerate" this person. He would call ME alcoholic!!! *L*......while he wound up last year in the hospital with pancreatitis *L*.......GET REAL!!! He has a "barn" on his property FULL of cases of wine. FULL. He also has a licquor cabinet with alcohol (vodka) that he now mixes himself drinks at home.......
Yet he has also suggested to me that when he's not around me he drinks LESS because Miss Prude doesn't like it and she doesn't like his comments about other women or about sex, which I truly believe are intended to pizz her off. I think she feels threatened at the idea of sex with him. Poor thang, and there's no alcohol for her to deal with the event if he should want it either........
I"M SO CONFUSED AND FRUSTRATED!!! I don't want to feel this way AT ALl. I'm so ANGRy with myself for believing his lies!!!! How could I haVe been SO stupid? WHY didn't I see any of this before? I'm so lost. I'm so embarrassed at my behavior. Why did I believe?
I never had a right to him. This is MY fault, maybe he's right in many ways? He's the hero, I'm the alternative supply. Isn't that how it always goes? Thinking this way invalidates the abuse I've suffered at this man's hands. He knew what my marriage was, how abusive, saw me through the entire experience, pretended to be my best friend, supportive, loving and caring..........that his was just awful, abusive, had proof of it, etc............but I never stopped to think that the power plays in that marriage were something he enjoyed. As long as any supply was forthcoming, from her or from me. She doesn't care about offering it consistently, only for HER purposes. He makes it all seem so happy and I keep so confused!
I feel so betrayed. I felt a vulnerability in the years of abuse I already had was going to wind up in a happy ending with a happy relationship at the time. The webs I have woven to stay with this man, are incredibly disorienting as well as the lies he told me. THe things I've done, so painful to me to stay there in that place trying to hold onto any ounce of belief. WHile they run off to happy pants land, I'm left behind to grieve and I've not a right too. I can't seem to get past this. I asked for what I got.
I asked for what I got.
2cute
From: i_was_blind Sent: 9/3/2006 2:40 PM 2cute,
You are obviously in a lot of pain. Pour it out and get it out of your heart and soul. It is as toxic as he is.
While you are coming to the realizations of what a pathological lying narcissistic piece of crap he is, realize that what he told you about his wife was likely all a lie too.
She is likely NOT a prude, NOT a bipch, NOT frigid AND she probably has sex with him every night.
They LIE. Don't assume that the only truth he ever told you was about her. NO WAY.
They love triangulation. Read everything you can get your hands on to understand it. They are masters at it.
Take care,
B
From: _CZ Sent: 9/3/2006 6:04 PM "I WAS the OW for five years in this relationship. We were friends prior to this affair for eleven years, close friends for two prior to ever becoming involved. He held a position of authority and I "admired" him. "~2Cute
A woman I know personally had an affair with her attorney for ten years figuring at some point, this authoritative man would leave his wife and marry her instead. Never happened. Never. She spent a whole decade believing he'd finally get free of his horrible wife and in the end, the OW gave up. She started getting help for herself and voila! We met in the self-help recovery movement. The weirdest thing is that her name is the very same name as my husbaNd's OW. creepy, huh? It felt like it was a message to 'get over myself'. We became good friends after that which helped me heal my Anne-phobia. <grin>
What was her weak point leading to actions that were contrary to her character?? She had recently divorced and was taking care of three-four kids by herself. How validating it was to have a powerful man pay attention to her. By the time she was fifty+, the affair was over and she figured her chances to meet a good man were over, too. Her regrets are huge, like most people's are after exiting an affair.
"I feel I cannot and do not have the right to grieve what I thought was BECAUSE I"m the OW."
This is so true, 2Cute. It's disenfranchised grief because your loss is not recognized nor supported by society. You have no where to go for validation because of your taboo-relationship. I hadn't really made the connection to disenfranchised grief until reading your message this afternoon. Perhaps what you feel is blind sorrow and an extraordinary amount of unresolved anger. I can see how the OW is not only betrayed by her 'beloved', but also by a society that does not accept her grief as being legitimate, and then: she has also betrayed herself. So after pondering your messages today, it would seem to me that the first step towards healing would be forgiving yourself. It might also be important to make connections between childhood betrayal by an authority figure and the authority figure we betray ourselves for as adults. I don't know if there is a connection, but that was another thought I had.
Look, there are OW threads on forums that would burn people's eyes right out of their skulls. People polarize this issue as if anyone suggesting infidelity is 'wrong', is making an assessment of affair-partners' pathological characters. Well, it's not a black & white situation, though it's still fair to say that those who take responsibility for their mistakes will have a better chance of restoring peace and serenity. That's how it seems to me. We can analyze 'how' the narcissist targets another person---we can understand his manipulations and his deceptive intentions; but at some point, any person who betrays their own values and principles has to ask him or herself WHY.
For partners who were cheated on, we experience a unique grief because people tell us to 'get over it and move on.' There's this nasty underlying assumption we were unable to meet our partNer's needs and so, we deserved to get cheated on. that's hard to deal with, too. But bottom line? The real issue here is the Narcissist who could charm the britches off Doris Day. I'll bet most people who fall for these scalawags are dealing with losses in their lives and unconsciously seek an escape like we all do. (It's just some of not as self-destructive as others.) Like the story of friend at the beginning of this message.
My situation was so different, it's hard to see outside myself, 2Cute. I've know some truly wonderful women who had affairs and they are not narcissists. However, we can't discount the fact that some of the OWs and OMs people write about on message boards are REALLY predatory! No kidding! We have wives on our forum who've been stalked by OWs and I don't suppose they'd describe her as an innocent lamb headed for the slaughter. There are too many differences to make any sort of universal judgment about affair partners.
"He did this to me recently again. I cried all day. Distraught. He seemed "overjoyed" at my pain and I saw this through a smirk on his face at my tears."
This comment is triggering for me because I know my X enjoyed hurting the OW. I could tell he thought it was great sport to use her for his pleasure because she was so desperate to keep him for herself. Her boundaries weren't for shite. Then again, she was only too happy to watch him squirm when he sacrificed everything to leave his family behind. I think sometimes in life, two peas-in-a-pod actually find each other.
"I asked for what I got."
Did you really? After reading your messages it sounds more like you're trapped in a runaway train and you don't know how to stop the momentum though you'd really like to! I don't think you were asking for what you got; you are asking to be loved. The problem is, you're asking from an authority figure who does not have love to give...not to anyone.
As I was walking up the stair,
I met a man who was not there.
He was not there again today.
Oh, how I wish he'd go away.
~English Nursery Rhyme~
Love,
CZ
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