Lies vs. Truth. . . Can you tell the difference?

[LettingGo]

Lies vs. Truth. . .
Can you tell the difference?

WARNING: do not tell a N you know s/he is lying, the higher the pathology the higher the danger for you that your life is in jeopardy when you confront him/her about the lying.

There are basically two different types of pathological liars. The ones who know they are lying to others and those who, at some degree, believe their own lies. The degree to which the liar believes his/her own lies confounds & hinders our ability to detect them.

Lying Statics, not to be confused w/lying Statisticians or lying with Statics, state that ;
* 42% of adults think it is okay to lie.
* 54% of lies are accurately detected.

A Must See TV Series,  Lie to Me, reveals how people lie. And the investigators figure out why they are lying. Here is a great clip on Micro Expressions
http://www.fox.com/watch/lietome/58271526001

Lie to me Tv series.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie_to_Me

If you haven't seen an episode I highly rec. checking it out. It is very much worth investing your time. Like most shows that are worth watching, I just found out that it is in jeopardy of going off the air.

Interesting warning statement, once you discover how to detect lies there is no going back, "there is no turning it off", it is your Matrix Moment.
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7042.0.html
 Which may explain why the show   shockingly does not have huge ratings. Yikes! Do we really not want to know when we are being lied to? Or do I smell a Conspiracy Theory of the Ns shutting this great down, so that we don't become N-oculated to their N-chantment?  

Professor Eckman's research will change your life if you do your homework!
There are a ton of great YouTube vidos on detecting lying.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXm6YbXxSYk[/youtube]

FBI Agent Explains How to Spot Liars
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3PAW7zjgPw&NR=1[/youtube]

How to detect lies. Great tips on how to spot a liar
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbH781mVa4E&feature=related[/youtube]

Body Lanugage, Mr. Phipps told a fib/lied about not being a good liar. He has the ability and he knows it and his body language told on him.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfNoVo0F25E&feature=related[/youtube]

[LettingGo]

Mind Reading w/Micro Expressions
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcVCpiPo01w&feature=related[/youtube]

[eyes_up]

I tend to believe that when micro expression are seen that the unconscious picks up on it ... basically records but it is not known on a conscious level. Later one has a feeling or more like an intuition that they question because they can not rationally apply a cause for the result.

Thanks letting go for all this info. I always have looked into body language. I like the fact that I am able to see when people are concealing and allow them to have the space to lie. That would be in certain kinds of situations. I know what it can be like to feel like I have to tell the truth to a question that I consider a breach of boundaries... so instead of replying ... I am not answering your question (inappropriate question) I will lie.We do protect people from our feelings by lying.

Just the mere fact taht a person can be uncomfortable with the truth means some one will lie. But, If we are talking about lies that harm that is different. I think people often do not want to truth and would see the lie most often when they are ready for it - to face the facts themselves. Lies can be a mutual agreement. I tell you I LOVE YOU and that is what you want to hear.

eyes

[LettingGo]

I tell you I LOVE YOU and that is what you want to hear.~Eyes

I believe it is not just the lies the Ns tell us, but most importantly the lies we tell ourself that create the devastation. Was it the Ns betrayal or our own to self that causes the deeper pain?

Most of us who were born into the KoN that was filled w/abuse are Natural Profilers. The hardest thing for me to do is keep my mouth shut when I know someone is lying. I am not very good at real life acting which is not good when your DH works w/two Ns. He is a dolphin swimming w/sharks and is having to learn how to be a shark trainer. Here is another good video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrgNKGjSyxA&feature=related[/youtube]

[eyes_up]

Well, the lies we tell ourselves are also perpetuated when some one not only lies but tells us more lies ... When believing requires work and internal / extrenal confrontation which one might not be ready for then the first lie and all the following lies help maintain protection... denial. so it is not exactly the lie we tell are selves but our defenses that say... YOU are not ready yet to take this on. That isn't not a bad thing until ones mental and emotional health are suffering. that is when the defense turns  unhealthy and destructive. But many defenses are OK in that they do serve a purpose.

As a child, I think I was 5 or 6 years old I had a very clear experience of My mothers character disturbance.

I came home from school and when I went upstairs to my bed room the door was closed and their was a note on the door. A face of a pig was drawn on the note claiming that my sister is a PIG. I saw the note and didn't understand it. I opened the door kind of scared since we did not close our doors unless we were in the room.

Half the room was torn apart. The bed was upside down, drawers were open and poured on to the floor. It was all of my sisters stuff.

Now I was 5 or 6 which meant my sister was 8 or 9, three year difference. It was so insane . I was in shock. I can recall walking around the room scared and then walking out the room thinking clearly ... something is wrong. My sister had not done any thing wrong.She really had not. This is true to this day.

My mother found some candy bar wrappers under the bed. We were kids. She was harassed and reprimended backed by my father. She had been labeled a "piggie" and that she was dirty. None of it was true... that went on for the rest of her time living there and as she grew older you can just imagined what happened when she started menstruating. I will not go into that.

But that day ... I clearly saw my mother as being crazy. I thought she was messed up and it was a scary reality ... to know this. Eventually I left that memory feeling but it didn't get dumped.

It would be some years later when I got old enough to see what was under my mothers bed. Now ... talk about projection. Serious child abuse as far as I am concerned. I am telling this story in short note. but today any time I think mom is oK I remember all the nutty stuff she has done to others as well as me. At that time I was idealized. My turn for the devalue was coming.

The point of this story is that as a child I had to put things out of my mind to survive. It is obvious as a child what i was up against. Yet, that same orientation ...meaning that same feeling of being a child and helpless to the conditions REMAINS if unchanged into adult hood... there fore people will believe lies because they do not have the development between childhood to adult hood that in fact they do have rights and do have power to break free from the conditions. Something that may be extremely trying is seen as impossible. that is where lies work.

The only reason a narcissist would come back knocking on my door is because he is counting on me being in that same helpless head space I was when I met him. the old unconscious conditions of childhood have been replaced with healthy empowering TRUTHS about who I am and how I do not have to put up with , put out of mind to survive. This is how being a survivor turns into being a thriver.

Thanks for reading,

eyes

[mountainmama]

I can definitely resonate with the candy wrapper thing, eyes. I saw my older sister go through the same humiliation, and she turned into quite a hoarder in her preteen years which led to binge eating Got so fed up that I started telling NM that they were my candy wrappers, just to get her off sis's back since she took criticism a lot harder than I did even then. Guess growing up I kinda had the attitude that "ehh, I already know the witch doesn't love me, it's no skin off my back to take an extra hit or two". Crazy little kid that I was, lol.

[LettingGo]

Wow, Eyes you really did have quite a Momster too. Your sister gets attacked by the NM then by the NF (in the case of child abuse I don't believe that the spouse is an enabler -- they are just a lower level N). My DH would never stand for me treating my child like that. If he sees that I am getting frustrated, he gives me that look "time to walk away and cool off" and I do the same. If we snap at our child we will apologize for hurting her feelings and explain how we could have and should have said things in a kind way. I believe the defense mech. are different when you are a child then when you are adult. A child can not walk away, but an adult does not have to make that first compromise to self that leads to another and another until they feel as powerless as a child w/no options. And then there is expecting and accepting no better when you have been raised in the KON where abuse is normal. If you experienced obvious overt abuse when you lived in the KoN then when you marry an N who does ambient abuse you think "hey I have married up!" because s/he is not as bad as my Nparents.

When I speak of lies we tell ourselves, I am referring to adults. You are right Eyes, we tell ourself lies so that we do not have to face the truth which requires us to take action which is to leave the relationship and end the relationship. That line in the movie, A Few Good Men, where he says, the Truth, you want the Truth, you can't handle the truth, that line always struck a strong cord in me. Surely if a parent loved you at least a little bit they would see how their behavior hurts their children and change -- the condition being IF the parent loves you at least a little. When the truth is your Spouse or Parent doesn't love you and finds pleasure in causing your pain, yes that is a truth very hard to accept. My sibs still can not accept it. I accepted this truth pretty early on, for the most part, so I did what mountainmama did and took the extra hits for my Sibs -- I now wonder if that was such a good thing?  They did get their share of beatings physically & verbally so I don't know why they haven't discovered the Momster's true identity especially when she continues to show them she doesn't care about them and only wants NS from their children. Both of them have low-self esteem and self-loathing which we talked about is one of the reasons some people are lonely when they are alone with self because they don't like who they are and need to focus on others, instead of getting to know Self. We accept the truth when we are ready to handle the truth and not a second before.

[eyes_up]

Letting go, You haven't linked up what I am saying. When childhood defenses go into adult defenses say like um not hearing, not able to register or not being able to do anything about the truth (helpless) because the truth creates the fear of losing all (dependency) Then the adult responds to the spousal abuse in the same way (dependency of a child). 

Mostly we are saying the same thing... I am making a statement about abuse from childhood into adult hood. That telling ourselves lies was based on the lies or rather defenses created in childhood to survive the abusive conditions.

This to me is part of the reason why disconnecting with an abusive spouse or significant other is so intense... it hits part of the defenses that were established in childhood that served the child then but no longer serve the adult. But the adult is emotionally locked into those patterns and that deep fear of losing the care taker who in fact did not take care but abused.


Mtmama- that is interesting that you to experienced the candy wrapper ordeal... what a trip. What a strong little girl you were taking the WRAP!


eyes

[LettingGo]

Letting go, You haven't linked up what I am saying.~Eyes

What am I not linking up exactly?

Mostly we are saying the same thing...~Eyes

Okay I am confused. Don't quite get what you are saying to me?

[SusyP14]

The only reason a narcissist would come back knocking on my door is because he is counting on me being in that same helpless head space I was when I met him.

That is super profound eyes.  They come back around thinking we have not turned the corner and are still vulnerable to their vampire teeth sucking the life of us

the old unconscious conditions of childhood have been replaced with healthy empowering TRUTHS about who I am and how I do not have to put up with , put out of mind to survive. This is how being a survivor turns into being a thriver.

I know that you have done the major work required to change your head space.

[eyes_up]

point is that by saying we lie to our selves it sounds like it is on purpose or some kind of denial when in fact it has everything to do engaging with the behavior patterns of childhood, which if a person is brought up in an abusive environment, will be how the person is oriented. Being in an abusive relationship  where one is reacting and behaving on the patterns of childhood which does not include experiencing ones power there fore... people are not actually lying to them self when they experience fear that they can not live with out the narcissist ... even when they know they are an adult the fears of a child is what is creating the behavior. The unconscious has no intention of lying... it just lives out the pattern over and over and over again.

How to change the pattern is another topic. But essentially no one is deceiving them self... it is the unconscious map that creates the behaviors.

eyes

[Suze]

 

Mostly we are saying the same thing... I am making a statement about abuse from childhood into adult hood. That telling ourselves lies was based on the lies or rather defenses created in childhood to survive the abusive conditions.

This to me is part of the reason why disconnecting with an abusive spouse or significant other is so intense... it hits part of the defenses that were established in childhood that served the child then but no longer serve the adult. But the adult is emotionally locked into those patterns and that deep fear of losing the care taker who in fact did not take care but abused.
 

YES!  Does this explain, WHY on day 7 or so of NC I am having MAD impulses to email or even, heaven forbid, call the exNbeast???  I am so sorry for what you wonderful, strong women went through.  Mntnmamma $ Eyes_up...candy wrappers?  How sad that even as little girls you knew the adults weren't OK.  No wonder we lie to ourselves to survive.  No child could tolerate holding those opposing truths...moms are supposed to love and protect their children vs. MY Nmom is incompetent.  How terrifying.   No wonder leaving even the most destructive relationship triggers a panic reaction...we've been clinging to dangerous people since birth.  How do we break this hideous cycle?  My mind tells me my exN is a toxic waste of a human..yet my gut or instincts or training at the hands of crazy parents...still not quite sure if they were N's or not, are telling me that abandonment is imminent!   MUST cling to life support!  Yet is was my finally listening to my physical responses, night sweats, waking with dread and ice in my belly..are what finally convinced me to haul butt?  Kudos to each and everyone of you that have made it here...great info letting go!  I'm almost scared to watch...then how will I lie to myself any longer about N's LOVE being real...if a bit distorted?  So f'ing sad all around.

[eyes_up]

Suze, It is not so sad once understood that this change is  possible. It is like changing the hard drive and then uploading new software. The only part of the hard drive that can not be altered is the elements that one was born with.

Unlike an operation on the physical body an operation with in mind takes longer. Changing behaviors and changing identifications is intense work. As far  as my personal experience goes it is doable but personally I would be incline to think that doing it on my own is NOT the best way to go. That is the long route. BUT, I did find a therapist who could do the job with me and we did the job. Yet, Won was a helping factor as well, so it takes several and maybe more places of connection. Reading books on the topic which not be reading books on narcissism since we are talking about changing the internal conditions and not about how to change a narcissist or how does a narc operate.

The only reason narc software slides right into the hard drive and up loads quickly and easily is because the the hard drive was created to support that soft ware. Change the hard drive and the soft ware is old.

Sure every one might be to one degree or another able to be fooled by a narcissist but not necessarily in a way that takes one to the cleaners.

So on one hand, yes it is sad that human beings have the ability to destoy but we humans also have the ability to create. So focusing on the ability to create brings the whole into the picture rather than looking at the at the sour grapes with the feelings that the sour grapes is all there is. It isn't over until it is over.

What I would like the studies of expression to study is the blank stare that narcissist so often USE. I get the idea that the blank stare is a way of holding back anything that messes up the plan... to hide the ultimate secret , the true character as in if you don't know how to respond and keep the lie functioning then just go blank ... it is the lie of omission ... if ya don't know the right thing to say then just don't say anything at all.

i remember that the blank stares arrived when I was touching in on points that could not be dealt with. The blank stare was the best  way to remove , distract from this very fact.



eyes_up

[SusyP14]

YES!  Does this explain, WHY on day 7 or so of NC I am having MAD impulses to email or even, heaven forbid, call the exNbeast??? 

Suze, IMHO, this is because we become addicted to them, have long festering trauma bonds and intermittent reinforcement from these creatures.

The more they hurt you, the more they hook you

http://www.thirdage.com/today/dating/the-more-they-hurt-you-the-more-they-hook-you

RE:  Trauma bonds explanation from Patrick Carnes book:  Betrayal Bonds:  Breaking Free from Exploitative Relationships

http://www.kyros.org/PDF's/Trauma%20Bonds.pdf

Stand firm in NC!!!  It is the only way to sanity.  From my 1 year anniversary post:

I bless No Contact and my non-wavering stance.  I do not know if he has ever tried to contact me again; but I know that I will never find out.  I keep him blocked from my email and phone.  I do not answer phone calls from numbers that I do not recognize. 

I view NC as life or death because he is deadly to my spirit and my sanity. I have stumbled across things that I wanted to send him, an article or link that I thought he would find particularly interesting, but I know what I am dealing with and it is LETHAL.

That may sounds dramatic since he looks perfectly normal but inside he is moldy, smelly and rotten.  He ENJOYS hurting people.  He does not just hurt others as a by product of his narcissism.  He ENJOYS it.  It gives him pleasure.
 
This is not a being you can interact with on any level.  He is too toxic.  It is like going into Chernobyl without a bodysuit on.  You are going to be lethally charred.
*****

Anyone may be vulnerable to the seductive illusions of another person's narcissism. By the time you realize the one-way nature of the relationship, the destruction and erosion to your self-esteem can be devastating. IN addition, you may have developed a profound devotion to your role as the NPD person's indispensable care taker, and simultaneously feel an emotional desperation for acceptance, approval, or love from the narcissist. Eleanor D. Payson, The Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists. page 167 
*****

One of the books that helped me a lot at this stage (first few days of NC) was How to Break your Addiction to a Person.  On page 143 he writes:

1.  To the extent that limerence makes you idealize the other person and blinds you to his faults, it can make you feel unworthy relative to him and you may be tempted, therefore, to settle for crumbs and great unhappiness within the relationship.

2.   Your fear of chasing away this marvelous person may lead you to avoid the kind of confronting and engaging that is usually necessary to the development of a mutual and truly satisfying relationship.


In his chapter entitled Return of a memory and referring to an adult (with abandonment hunger through childhood neglect as mentioned by above) love relationship that is wrong for us but that we cannot end, even though it is not good for us, he says

 In order to understand your Attachment Hunger it is essential that you realize that if is not a new experience . It is not occurring for the first time in the current relationship. It is the return of a memory. It is an emotional reminiscence of a much earlier time. Although the actual details of the memory may be largely forgotten the FEELINGS are as alive and intense now as, when they are triggered into your awareness by the loss or anticipated loss of an important connection, as they were when you originally felt them. And you originally felt them in the first few months and years of your life. What this means is that when you are ruled by Attachment Hunger, your state of mind is, in many ways, a re-experiencing of your state you were in as an infant or toddler. The qualities of this experience are those of a needy vulnerable being with limited perspective, underdeveloped judgment, little capacity for rational thought, and no will power. And you need not have had a particularly traumatic or deprived childhood to have known these feelings of primitive dependency. They are part of everyones legacy. They are deposits in everyones memory banks. So when these Attachment Hunger states take over, your thinking and judgment are distorted and ruled by the intense emotions of a time when you were helpless.


Does this relationship validate you? Does it make you feel good? Does it make you feel like a better person?

[eyes_up]

"That may sounds dramatic since he looks perfectly normal but inside he is moldy, smelly and rotten.  He ENJOYS hurting people.  He does not just hurt others as a by product of his narcissism.  He ENJOYS it.  It gives him pleasure." ~ Susy

Well put Susy and I totally agree. The fact that narc enjoys hurting others  crosses my values. But even if some one didn't enjoy it and still compulsively hurt others, it would still not be a place at which I build a relationship.

eyes

[LettingGo]

Suze, NC is one of those things that does get better w/time, as long as you don't cheat on it!

[LettingGo]

"That may sounds dramatic since he looks perfectly normal but inside he is moldy, smelly and rotten.  He ENJOYS hurting people.  He does not just hurt others as a by product of his narcissism.  He ENJOYS it.  It gives him pleasure." ~ Susy

This is a very important distinction, that Ns are not humans acting evil, but evil acting human. They have precise control who, how, where, and when they abuse and they actually enjoy it which makes them actually evil.

Eyes, I have said pretty much the same thing word for word to my Nsibs about the Momster and the evil brainwashing she did to her children, most definitely, The only reason narc software slides right into the hard drive and up loads quickly and easily is because the the hard drive was created to support that soft ware. Change the hard drive and the soft ware is old [and obsolete]. My Sister suffers from extreme depression and says, "I know it is not true, BUT I feel like I am failing my H, kids, business, etc." She says, I am an adult I can not blame Mom for my self-loathing. I should be over it by now. She has not had extensive therapy, only crisis therapy which she stops once she can resume reg. routines. For me I pretty much had to through the old hard drive away, start from scratch, and invest in a new hard drive w/new soft ware -- it is worth the investment!

[LettingGo]

point is that by saying we lie to our selves it sounds like it is on purpose or some kind of denial when in fact it has everything to do engaging with the behavior patterns of childhood, which if a person is brought up in an abusive environment, will be how the person is oriented.~Eyes

Eyes I totally get how unaddressed, subconscious childhood fears do not get better just because we get older. Totally get that fact. For me, it was not only learning to address old childhood fears and unlearn dysfunctional behavioral patterns, and getting a new hard drive, it was also about not consciously lying to self. There is a part of me who wishes I could tell you that this was all subconscious, that there was no denial or I was just in denial, out of my control, not done on purpose, but I would then be lying to you and myself. Again for me, after realizing that the Momster is not only toxic, but evil because she enjoys hurting others (me), she isn't going to change, I have not been attached to her for many years because I do not like her True Self, have done NC before, not worried about not having her has a toxic parent (no abandonment issues, because I was leaving her & she was not abandoning me, she did that years ago when I was a child & I have done therapy & healing on that), I could go on and on, but after the previous Last Straw Moments where I told myself and others I am done w/her because of all the A to Z reasons, when I broke NC I consciously lied to self "she wont be as bad this time, although she has had no remorse during my entire life maybe at some very extremely small level she will regret what she has done (Magical Thinking) & be tolerable, and even if she doesn't no worries -- I am SuperWoman/Super Christian I am strong enough to handle whatever she shoots at me, the bullets won't hurt or sting, they have magically lost all effect, and the lies of good people, good Ds, good Christians don't give up on toxic people -- when in fact good people, good Ds, good Christians do Let Go of toxic people including Mothers who are Momsters. I do not have to keep a toxic Momster in my life, these were all lies I told my Self in addition, It was a lie to self that I have no choice about Letting Go of a Momster. Unfortunately I am not above telling myself lies.   I must be aware of this ugly truth so if and when it happens again I can recognize it for what it is and hold myself accountable so that I do not mislead myself by accepting lies w/out considering alternative choices available. It is about having a mind & body connection. Each time I lied to self my body reacted and sent strong messages (sick feelings in stomach & head, etc) that my intuition/instinct was screaming as loud as it could,   what you are saying & doing is to Self. I did not value it, I ignored it and I did my best to shut it off which led to putting myself in harms way. I tell my H that I have learned to highly value and appreciate my intuition because EVERY TIME I ignore it, I pay big time and I refuse to bankrupt Self again.

[Suze]

I bless No Contact and my non-wavering stance.  I do not know if he has ever tried to contact me again; but I know that I will never find out.  I keep him blocked from my email and phone.  I do not answer phone calls from numbers that I do not recognize. 

This is the next step I need to take.  When he was calling four times an hour, house AND cell, sending sad sack emails, even Im'd me under a fake profile on a free dating site I joined the day I said quite clearly, "leave me the f*** alone", I at least felt he gave rat's a**?  Even though I knew that on the occasional times that I JUST HAD to see if he had somehow morphed into a genuine good guy, I always ended up getting reamed royally.  "Where were you?  What the H*** are we doing here Suze***?"  "Come on...you know damn well you never intended to come back here"  "Just say it, if you're gonna play me for a chump, just say it!".  Then he wonders why I avoid his calls? 

Sooo, I weaned myself to shutting off cell, ignoring...OK, reading but not responding to emails and my son unplugged the house phone for a week.  It was good, I was doing the fleeing, he was still pursuing, it was almost like when we first met?  It was overkill and amusing.  Bet you all can see the problem with this little system already huh?  Now that it's been almost a week....I checked everything.  Denver cell, house phone, now I'm catching myself looking for at least an email...NOTHING.  This is precisely what happened in our relationship.  Full court press, get me to his McMansion in the middle of bumfu**, promised me the moon, proposed...with a cubic zirconia (stop laughing)....then, NOTHING.  I became like an old haus frau?  I must never forget that I was never as lonely in my life as I was with this nonhuman.N.  Or the RAGES, I must never forget the rages.  I'm JUST now sleeping through the night and haven't had a cold sweat in about 3 days.

I've met a sweet, older man that I am in no way atracted to physically, how could I be, he's sane, and between him, my son and my job hunt and trying to take good care of my self, my plate is full of good stuff now.  Time to have Denver cell shut off comletely....not going to make the mistake of waiting until IT does it out of spite and feels all powerful again, time to block his emails if only to stop me from looking for any...and we're getting the house phone shut off completley.  Neither son nor I use it at all and it will cut our cable bill in half.
I can do this too.....funny, I don't miss IT, I am just stunned, once again at how hot and cold these THINGS run?  Creepy.

[eyes_up]

Letting Go, I think when ever a person lies to them self it only means they are not ready to make the final move. Actually that final move doesn't come in one step ... it is a process.

The thing is from my experience of going back and fourth from... it will not be that bad or the nastiness will not hurt well I  simply had to learn. But the truth be to me all the nastiness in the world only uses my head set about how I experience myself . It doesn't hurt once I know the truth about me and I am not expecting any one else to know that truth. This is me I am talking about no you or any one else on this forum. This is my personal experience in growth ... internal growth.

When I hurt is when I grieve the person I thought my mother was (the illusion). but I can handle the truth. It doesn't make me angry any more and I no longer have to run either way.

I mostly stay away from contact because I know she is unhealthy and essentially being around emotionally unhealthy people, unless one is trained to do so and still then... is that it affects a person, like catching a cold. It is very objective in this way. Now I am telling you my story and again this isn't about creating a template for every one or any one. It is one experience, the only one I know most completely.

Thanks for telling your experience. I think expressing what our personal experiences is important. What you call a lie I call learning process. Thinking that is where I was headed with my above statements.

 thanks for reply,

eyes

[LettingGo]

Our paths, our experiences, etc. are more similar than different. We have way more in common than not and should not let our differences distant one from the other. For me, recovering from the KoN is not focused on the Momster and how I process her true identity, but is about finding self, knowing self, taking care of self, valuing self, and protecting self by no longer deluding self that I have evolved past the sting of the bullet. The bullet stings not because I am not processing it correctly or giving it too much power the bullet stings because it a bullet, that's what bullets do they sting. It goes back to our Firing Range discussion. Because I value self I do not knowingly put myself in harms way.

What you call a lie I call learning process~Eyes

Yes, I agree. I have said that in past posts, Life is one big learning process, once learning experience after another, then comes the test, and if we are ready, if we have done our homework & studying and we can either ace it or not. If we don't we get to take the test again. For me, part of my learning process was learning how to detect lies & not to accept lies from others as well as myself. Where we differ is I do believe we can tell ourselves lies and you do not and that is okay my friend.  We can agree to disagree on that because like I said we have way more in common than not.  I like the saying, Iron sharpens Iron and sometimes there are sparks. I love how we can have a healthy exchange of view points here at WoN thank you CZ, Eyes, Honey, and all the other moderators for creating a safe place to share ideas w/out people getting hurt. I value you that so very much.

[LettingGo]

Litha is definitely one of my muses, because she continues to inspire me, as she does the rest of the members of WoN. She just posted a great thread, Trying to identify my "internal" red flags.
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7549.0.html
 
and Eyes comment below, got me thinking once again about lies. The lies others tell us and the ones we tell our Self.

I lie to myself in order to avoid the fact that he is a liar. ~ Eyes

How do we detect a lie?

For me, it is not only hearing & seeing a lie, but most important feeling the lie the second it happens.

Ignoring these internal red flags really are lies we tell ourselves so that the N-chantment, Loving the Illusion, stays strong. For my entire life I use to identify them as excuses or reason the Momster acted the way she did to justify instead of rectify the situation. Something my BiL (not the N one) said years ago, find an excuse or find a way, which I have adapted to make an excuse or make a change. The change for me was to have strong boundaries and to not compromise them. Compromising Boundaries = Compromising Self

People who truly love us do not question, expect, demand, guilt us into or talk us into compromising our boundaries. They respect our boundaries because they respect us. They do not desire to control, change, compromise, nor destroy our boundaries, because they do not desire to control, change, compromise, nor destroy us. Any time I compromised my boundaries by making excuses or believing lies about the Momster (or any other N I N-countered) which resulted in her not having any accountability or responsibility for her abusive behavior I was compromising self. When we compromise self, we devalue self and we disconnect w/self. It is the disconnect from mind and body that keeps us N-chanted. For years I bought the excuse/lie that Momster can not reciprocate love because she was not loved, then I had my DD and all those, excuse/lies lost their power over me. Personally I had very little trouble detecting lies from others, being born and raised in the KoN one becomes a Natural Profiler. Lies I had trouble detecting were my own, not the lies I told to others, but the lies I told to Self. When I started connecting Mind, Body, & Spirit I learned that it is not about the ability to hear a lie, but the ability to feel a lie, that protects Self. Some people hear lies and I can too, but I have learned to value my instinct/intuition, so now I can feel a lie. It is about the Power of Peace. If I do not have peace about a situation or a person I usually do not proceed, and when I do it is w/great caution. Even when our minds have trouble w/detecting the truth our bodies do not and will let us know. Unfortunately we ignore it and pay the consequence for that decision of devaluing our instinct/intuition, that important part of Self. The agenda of the N is to get us to disconnect from Self in order to turn off our internal Lie Detector. So how do we learn to reactivate our internal Lie Detector? We do this by reconnecting w/Self by trusting Self and by putting into practice that Logic follows Intuition/Instinct. When we get that initial gut feeling that we can not trust someone, we do not need to automatically dismiss it because we can not find any logical reason to support our distrust of that person. Reason/Logic will eventually follow Intuition/Instinct, I have learned through experience to trust that.

[NewWings4MeNow]

The only reason a narcissist would come back knocking on my door is because he is counting on me being in that same helpless head space I was when I met him. the old unconscious conditions of childhood have been replaced with healthy empowering TRUTHS about who I am and how I do not have to put up with , put out of mind to survive. This is how being a survivor turns into being a thriver. ~ eyes

eyes,

Your comment reminds me of something XNH e-mailed me a year or more ago:  "Whenever you start to talk about facts [in e-mail], I know there's nothing more to say [or the conversation is over, something like that]."

He knows that I'm not the same person with the same helpless head space, and that there's no more room for him to maneuver or manipulate.

Well said, eyes.

NewWings4MeNow

[eyes_up]

The real question is why does one need to avoid... this is where the deeper part of the issue is. This is where a child tells themself if they do things this way the parent will approve of them.

Children have needs that have to be met. In order to get that need met a child will cover aspects of self, deny instinct in order to get the need met.

If a person never has gotten the chance to be them selves , accept all the parts and be validated for that alone then there is a lie or a coping mechanism to getting the need met.

I cope by lying. If I do not lie then I will not get my needs met. If I lie and say I really do not have these feelings and these impulses then I will be approved of.

So, the basis of this lie is to get needs met. it has a purpose. I look at the purpose and stop focusing on the so called lie.

As  a child I do not have the capacity or complex mind function to say to myself ... STOP Lying and get straight .... mom isn't going to accept you for who you are, mom is not going to love you since you do not meet her standards etc. It is an act of self preservation with in dysfunctional relationships/situations. It ultimately creates a pattern.

If it is not ok for me to opening express my need, If the parent is emotionally unavailable the child thinks (child thinking not adult) that they can earn what they need by lying about their true self. If true self is revealed then the child is banished or reprimanded. The child continues to chase the carrot in hopes that the need will be nurtured.

When the child grows physically into an adult he/she pairs up with some one who has carrots to be chased. True self is still denied and age appropriate lies are created. True self unseen , unheard and unacceptable ... that has been instilled and requires attention.

There is a reason one avoids the fact that the other person is a liar. That is what I am explaining here. No lie one tells them self is flat and non dimensional like I lied... I took the last cookie. The person who tells them self that the liar is going to change is hanging on to dear life that their need will be nourished. The point of this is the need and the lie is just a symptom. It is a way of coping with a emotionally unavailable parent.



eyes

 

[LettingGo]

Needs are constant regardless if one parent is available or unavailable to reciprocate love or not. In regards to one's own parent, you never out grow the need for your parent to love you. You can replace a boyfriend's or spouse's inability to love, but you can not find another parent. You can find someone who can be motherly or fatherly, and as good as that is, it doesn't replace the role ones parent plays in your life. This is something you can not avoid and you must accept that the actual relationship/role of parent is irreplaceable, and you must grieve that permanent loss and void, thus you must learn to live without. My NSibs are unable to do this so they continue to live a lie. The Momster loves to say, you are all grown up adults you do not need me (i.e., the role/relationship of Mother). She is right we she speaks of herself as a toxic person, no we do not need someone abusive in our life. However, a loving Mother that we need. All 3 of us plus at least two of our spouses for a total of 5 people, plus her ex-long term friends who are like Aunties to me have told her that children will always need the love, validation, support, of their parent. I believe when the Momster says that we are grown and we don't need her that she is admitting that she is either unwilling or unable to reciprocate love. She actually asked me what Love and Forgiveness is when I was in College, even after repeated lengthy discussions about these two huge topics she does not get it, because both require traits she does not have, empathy, remorse, etc.

So if a lie to self is a bi-product of the unfulfilled need, then how does one detect the lie when the need remains?

I still need my Mother to love me, so how do I accept the truth that she does not love me if the need remains that I need to be loved by my Mother? For me, I had to consider the statement, My Mother really does love me some where deep down inside as a lie in order to accept the truth that She Loves Me Not.

Maybe this is where one of the differences is between a Nspouse or Nboyfriend and a Nparent. We are human beings who need to be loved and that need does not go away just because we become adults. The need to be taken care of ends w/independence, but the need to be loved goes on forever. With romanic relationships you can realize that you don't need to be loved by this certain person who can not love you in return, but w/parents as stated before, you can not replace that relationship thus the need remains and the lie will remain, unless we can be brave enough to face the extremely painful truth that our parent does not love us. The purpose of the lie is to avoid the truth that the N does not love us and when the N is a parent another thing to avoid is being orphaned (even as an adult), thus the lie of a toxic parent is better than no parent -- which my Nsibs believe and I do not. My Nsibs also fear abandonment. I do not like abandonment, but I do not fear it from the Momster because I realize she abandoned/rejected us from the very beginning. Plus by going NC she did not abandon me I am Letting Go of her.

My best friend was the first person who showed me what strong authentic healthy love looks, sounds, and feels like. There were others in my childhood that gave me glimpses of what authentic love is like by the way my friends loving parents loved them.  I could easily fear DH abandoning me, thus live the life of a slave and doormat and agree with him 100% of the time about 100% of the things he says, but I don't. I would hate if he left me or betrayed me and I know it would devastate me & bring me to my knee, or fall flat on my face, but this is where my faith in Jesus reassures me that with my deepest sorrows in life He is there. I have been through some very devastating things in life   endured and survived many losses and He has carried me though.   I know with Him I will never be completely abandoned. If I did not know His Amazing Love I would feel abandoned w/no FOO and the potential loss of a DH because no one is guaranteed tomorrow. But we do have the promise of never being forsaken or abandoned.