XNH Travel with d to Argentina: Bait and Switch

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hi.

Some of you may know about XNH's trip now with d to Argentina for a ski holiday just a couple of months after he hit her and she reported him to authorities.  One of my provisos allowing this trip to occur was that they wouldn't be alone, as d told me they'd be traveling for part of the time with one of her friends and the girl's dad from their father-daughter weekend adventures group.

Before the trip XNH sent me a link to their hotel:  A pension over a restaurant in the middle of town.  XNH spends a LOT on himself traveling, even upgrading to presidential suite if available.  This link was a flag, but d said that the other dad had made the reservations, so I let it play out.

D and XNH traveled first class domestically, then business class to Buenos Aires, then on to skiing in the Patagonia region of the Andes.  

D has Skyped me several times.  (Another proviso had been that d would take her own cell phone and have it with her -- before the trip XNH encouraged her to use Skype instead and I had to make sure she actually took her phone.)

They arrived at the pension, to a room she described as "lower than Motel 6", under the eaves, in a town of 5* business class hotels.  The cost was $20/night/person, with zero facilities.  They talked about changing hotels.  Then XNH said he'd prepaid for the week.  (XNH would never, ever prepay for a facility without knowing the quality of where he'd be staying.)  Then he said it was "non-refundable" -- this in a supposed global destination ski area town?  Then d told me XNH said that the father-daughter were arriving the next day so they had to stay there overnight.  D described her experience as "surviving it" and as "enduring it".  I encouraged her to tell XNH they had to change hotels -- for traveling across the world as such a special holiday (for a guy who makes $250K).  

D told me the so-called world-class ski mountain was 7K feet and had 2' of gunky snow.  She said it was rock skiing conditions.  

She said that she was doing all the talking for herself and XNH, as he was completely clueless about Spanish (though he speaks French).  How useful/convenient for him.

Yesterday d told me that "she'd been wrong" and the father-daughter weren't arriving until *next Wednesday* (giving them four days in the country total ... ???).

Last night d told me that they didn't dine at the highly recommended tango show restaurant but went to another tango place where she described the dance as "unusual" and "highly sexual" where the story was "a prostitute dealing with two men".  I asked her if there were any other kids there and she said yes, but they were much younger ....

Today d told me that, now, the daughter isn't coming AT ALL on the trip, that "she had some one-day event that was really important to her to go to, so she opted for that" -- instead of taking a life-changing international trip meeting up with d as her friend? -- *and* "that her school started before the trip would be over" -- which would have been known two months ago.  And wouldn't you know it? the dad, a D'd 40/50-something man, "in the last minute" (traveling from San Diego to the Andes unplanned ???) suddenly showed up with his buddy and the buddy's gf.

So there is d, in Argentina, with XNH and three adults unrelated to her.  D verified that she has her own hotel room.  (They did change rooms within the pension and she claims the one they have is better.)

I had to really control my comments to d typed on Skype.  I just told her to not assume she knew all the details ....

Spoke with male cousin advisor about this (he's the in-flight purser/global traveler) and he agreed that I should smell a rat, that this was consistent with XNH's ongoing behavior, that he's treating d like she's his "buddy" and not her parent, and that I should definitely expect he'd offer her to go heliskiing or some other higher-risk activity.  He said to not assume d has to have the finest accommodations and she needs to get used to a variety of situations if she'll be a traveler.  He DID agree with my comment that XNH would NEVER, EVER have taken an adult woman to that level accommodation, and that he is setting an expectation that d is worth less than that -- keeping in mind that XNH used miles to pay for all the air travel, + $40/night for hotel.  What a cheapskate.

D said that if the expected snow tomorrow doesn't materialize, they'll go hiking in a nearby forest.

Now I have to figure out what I'm going to communicate to XNH about this, how and when, and how to deal with the therapist about it in mid-September.  He violated the terms of the trip and I completely do not buy that such an expensive and pre-planned trip would just be cancelled at the last minute like that -- or that the terms of their showing up would change three times.  Now knowing that the other dad is D'd, it's possible that he and his daughter could have had a fight, and I'm sure that, if he and XNH get along so well, that they're two birds of a similar color in lifestyle and attitudes.

Prior to the trip and my agreement to it, d stated in therapy that she was uncomfortable spending any length of time alone with XNH and the only reason she was agreeing to go with XNH on the trip was because they'd be with her friend and the girl's dad.  

Now I've noticed, and told cousin this, that each day d has Skyped me she's stayed talking for up to two hours and I've had to tell her to get out and explore and take advantage of her time there.  Today cousin commented that, subconsciously, d's telling me that she doesn't feel comfortable there with XNH.  Of course the issue of betrayal comes up on multiple levels, and I have to gloss/downplay it while she's still there for her to make the most of it.

I fully expect that more odd stuff will happen now that the adults are there, as the week progresses.

Not letting this go.  This will impact my approval of any future travel of the two of them out of the country together, and I plan to show that XNH's word and representations related to d's comfort mean nothing.

What a bunch of world-class bullshite.

My biggest challenge is continuing to direct d's mind back toward truth and fact as they pertain to her actual situation as opposed to whatever information XNH and his dangerous mind is feeding her expecting her to just accept.

NewWings4MeNow

[betterdays]

I do not know what to say, except that I would be having fits about my D's safety and comfort.  Getting used to a "variety" of accomodations is something you do with your peer group.  She knows her father's income and habits, and it must be a slap in the face to discover how cheaply he is willing to go when she is his only family there, and in a sense, guest.  My D would not be willing to stay, but would be hard pressed to speak up for herself. 

It leaves you with one alternative, and that is to check every bit of the plan ahead of time, even calling the friend and her father to verify. Not too appealing, and no guarantee N would not change the plans at the last minute anyway.

[SusyP14]

I am sorry you have to deal with this never ending drama and I hope your daughter is OK.  It is amazing that you have not pulled out all of your hair yet.

[Julia]

Wings,

You were pretty much going to get screwed either way.... if you had correctly predicted he would pull something like this and refused to let her go, you would have seemed too judgmental and even d would have gotten huffy. And so now she is there, feeling tricked, lonely, and vulnerable. Of course she wants to talk to you. Personally I would let her talk, she needs you as a lifeline. If there ever is some honest good fun to be had, she will cheerfully sign off and tell you she will call you later.

I believe she is guarding her understanding of this, not quite wanting to fully realize what the XN has done while she is so far from home. It is quite meaningful that she allows herself to be critical at all. She will react  powerfully with both you and the therapist when she returns. THis could be an important turning point for her, where she realizes once and for all that everything he says is just shifting sand, and that he will do whatever he pleases no matter what he has promised her. It is so sad, but it is a powerful realization, and I do believe that she will come home safely.

Julia

[RB22]

NewWings,

He has proven to both of you that YOU Both do not matter.  Nothing matters that doesn't have any way to enforce it or punishment to him for NOT following the agreement.  And D NOT talking/visiting him is NOT punishment enough.  (She is just another form of supply and a way for him to make himself look good to the world, but as a teen/young adult she is becoming less and less expected to be with him... and have her own life. (According to society, anyway) so she is becoming more and more a liability to him, especially as she is developing her voice, and her voice does NOT agree 100% with him. 

I would let her talk as long as she wants.... she obviously needs you as her touchstone... she feels safer on the phone with you and not with the adults surrounding her or her location. 

And as an aside... if she doesn't contact you when she said she would.... call the authorities.   Heck, I might call the US consulate there and give them a heads up that your D doesn't feel comfortable where she is ... even though she is with her dad... and they have no jurisdiction .... to please keep an eye on the gate for your d... just in case she feels threatened in their country... she can come to them for safety.

Next time he wants to take D on a trip... all the details end up in a contract that spells out enforcement to him... and is witnessed by attorneys... and is subject to verification.  You can do this with a co-parenting coordinator, it is a service that is offered... not thru the courts but can be court ordered.

Hugs, I would be sitting on the edge of my seat and biting my nails if I were you.  When is she due back?

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

RB,

I agree with your overall assessment.

Am letting d talk as long as she wants, generally.  She hasn't actively expressed any anxiety, though I did find it interesting that the first day she video Skyped me only when XNH was out of the room.

Before d left I outfitted her with all relevant local contact info:  US embassy/consulate #s, local police, airport tel # etc., but she's now in a remote city in the Andes so it's not so simple.  She told me she knows what the PD there look like.

I have no problem with more of a contract -- XNH just won't sign it, declaring that the parenting plan governs and all he has to do is see to her safety.  The quality of a hotel isn't about her safety, nor is another family not showing up as originally discussed.  

The issue is how d feels when she's with him, about his broken promises and violated agreements.

I'm not wigging out.  I can't.  

If things come to a worse head, it'll have to happen and then decisions will just be made.  If they participate in an activity which harms d I'll know about it, I'll go down there if I have to, and XNH knows full well that it'll be OVER for him.  What concerns me still is whether d is aware of enough to correctly identify what's being said to her/done with her as inappropriate for a girl of her age, whether she's strong enough to push back on any adult (including XNH) for her own appropriate self-protection, and whether she really tells me everything that should truly be of concern.  My view is this since, after XNH hit her, she said, "Well he didn't hit me that hard," as if it was NORMAL for a girl to be hit by a man.  My worry is whether I've taught her enough of the obvious and not-so-obvious about what she has the right to demand as her value -- and whether/how much of what she experiences that's negative she may still feel she somehow deserves.  Last week d told that she was counseling a friend of hers on an online forum, and she said she'd quoted to them advice I gave her a while ago -- and how well it worked and was received.  This is my hope, that she's absorbed what's really, really needed for her to handle this correctly.

I keep in mind that six years ago the White House/NSA face reader/star chart reader told me she saw "institutionalization" in XNH's future.  Don't know how/when/if it will come, but the set-up is becoming ever riper for some precipitous event.

D is due back on the 29th -- just 1.5 days before the start of school, after a two-day journey across time zones, as arranged by XNH, Mr. Selfish.

My challenge is that, ever-increasingly during this trip, I've noticed that d is less and less willing to hear any of my objections or concerns voiced, which is as I figured it would be.  I'm concerned that she doesn't know an American family's/father's version of protective Normal toward a d while traveling, and she won't have anything against which to compare/measure XNH's activities with her while they've been en route alone.

I anticipate that, upon their return, d will tell me that she never felt uncomfortable being with XNH.

And so it will begin again ....

NewWings4MeNow

[betterdays]

I would remind D of this when N offers the next trip.  Let D do the refusing.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Better,

My thinking too.  

D needs to get strong enough to say, "XNH, I'm not your travel buddy or your adult substitute.  If you go on a trip for adult activities, go with your W or go with adults."

If only d had me to take her on these international trips and get the experience, the trips with XNH wouldn't loom as attractive.  I can't, OTOH, go skiing with her now so of course that will always be a draw.  There again, XNH took me to a dangerous area beyond my ability the first day we skied together, and I KNOW he tries to do the same with d.  So it's up to me to outfit her conversationally with appropriate reactions/boundaries.

D has insisted on spending the Christmas holidays at home with our own (now 3') tree -- she needs that sense of "home" which I don't have at all here living in an apartment without winter weather.  I, OTOH, would rather go traveling since it's our longest time together.  Today I was thinking about Marrakesh/Morocco.  Talk about an adventure for a redheaded Caucasian teen and mom ....  It doesn't concern me, as I've traveled in Egypt and Turkey, and to a variety of countries alone.  Oh bollux:  Exchange is on 26 December, so d and I would actually be on a plane back on Christmas Day unless XNH allowed more time.

NewWings4MeNow

[RB22]

Sending Positive thoughts (Karma) your D's way that she has enough courage to tell him she is traveling with you this Holiday season and she'll text him when she wants to see him.  Then she enjoys her time traveling with you.

Co parent coordination CAN be court ordered. 

Hugs,

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

Haven't heard yet today from d -- she's three hours past the usual time.

I hope she's out having a good time, skiing still (if they have lights) or to dinner.

With more people there I guess she feels more comfortable.  (Which would give XNH more fodder to do this with her MORE often.)

SCRATCH THIS.  SHE CALLED.

NewWings4MeNow

[RB22]

Big sigh of relief on this coast....

Hugs,

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

Oh RB, thank you.  D and XNH took a muddy drive in a hurricane-level rain storm (no skiing) to another village and went
wandering.  Good travel stuff (unless he risked getting them stuck/stranded, which he'd do).  D had an adventuresome good time and said XNH was "fine".  As long as his behaviors remain generally within the largest part of the bell curve, he's OK to be around.  As soon as his behaviors demand to be off to an extreme, which is his risk-taker bent or is based on his selfish demands, and anyone pushes back, his rage begins.

NewWings4MeNow

[betterdays]

Glad she's okay.

[NewWings4MeNow]

XNH has completed his "hearts and flowers" efforts with d on their Argentina trip, from which she returns on Sunday.  Yesterday they had a big snow activities day (x-country, snowshoeing, snowball fights -- what most men would take a mate on a trip to do, though perhaps done more low-key), and for someone who "loathed" my diet, d told me they're returning with 17 bags of chocolate ....

My view is more solidified that XNH has treated her on this trip like his w/gf/playmate, as she's been the only non-adult in their group activities, even with XNH's D'd guy friend and his group of Argentinian "locals" (men and women, d said) (seems he's been there *ahem* before).

Today at our local dog park I was chatting with a woman, a mom, about the current trip and sitch, and she winced at d being dropped off for a whole day at a cafe reading, watched over by a waitress, in the mountains of a foreign country, while XNH went off with friends to ski.  What I now have to counter is XNH's teachings to d *again* about appropriateness -- and age-inappropriateness, meaning his exposures of her to his footloose singles crowd, now internationally.  

What I find is interesting is that he really seems to enjoy very much the lifestyle of his former "special male friend", who'd have a coupled life "when in town" but, when traveling, he did whatever he darn well pleased.  XNH really seems to live very much the life of a single man when he's traveling, and he's now exposing d to this.  

Turns my stomach.  She's 13.

I'd appreciate others' perspectives of this, any concerns, whether it's overblown, etc.  I know it's sort of out of my control, but I really just don't know any other active/not D'd parents who'd treat their ds this way.

What do you consider "normal" in this circumstance?

Gosh I can't wait until d turns 18.

What concerns me is that d has no comparative frame of reference with Normal American protective father families and how they deal with their ds and travel.  During this trip d was less and less willing to hear my concerns or objections, and I have to assume she'll report that she never felt uncomfortable with XNH.

And so it will begin again ....

NewWings4MeNow

[RB22]

NewWings,

Let the deprogramming begin!!!

She may not have a reference yet...but she will as she ages and develops her own relationships with men.  She will look back and wonder why did dad treat me the same way as my boyfriend... and she may even ask a friend or 2 or many if they ever had that type of experience with their fathers.  The answers will be there when she seeks them out.   

Explain to her that this is inappropriate, but try not to go overboard.  I think the less said .. the better.  She may rejoice in being treated like an adult... she isn't one, and it is inappropriate.. but MOST 13yo's want to be treated like an adult and not a child.

My feeling is she will on the not too distant future go seeking answers to her questions regarding his offbeat behaviors. Hopefully she comes to you or her therapist and discusses these feelings she has.

My youngest D(15) is just NOW questioning some of the stuff X has done... before she used to parrot his truth and believe it wholeheartedly, now she is just starting to question his truth... and she seems to be listening to what I am saying...

September 23, 2013.... MY independence day from him. 

Keep your ears open... and lead her by example... my girls KNOW I am the parent that has Their interests at heart... they also know that while sometimes they do not like my rules... my house is the better place for them to be.  They are just NOT strong enough to tell him that.

Hugs,

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

RB,

Yes, what I'm concerned about is exactly that d would see that her dad treated her like a future bf would, and consider this to be par and a baseline for her selections of bf/mate.

And I do understand that she'd feel very independent being treated more like an adult, but I'm thinking about the circumstances.  At 13 I would never have been allowed to go off and spend time alone in another country -- I first traveled abroad with my mother at 15, then was an exchange student at 16.  Part of my current challenge is that I have no idea what, if anything, XNH has ever discussed/shown/taught d about self-protection.  In the past when she and I have talked about things he's taught her she generally says "Nothing, he's working/on his computer/he doesn't talk to me/he's at the gym," so I don't know what I still need to cover and don't want to come off like a locomotive discussing being "at risk" -- though, after this trip, it will be necessary.

In the first days/weeks of our separation, I asked a friend/neighbor H his views of XNH as a parent; he said that he wouldn't want XNH to have any custody at all because, "He brings d into his adult world, instead of him going into her world."  D was then six and boy did that surprise me as I didn't realize how starkly his behavior made an impression on others.  Another woman/mother school friend said about XNH, "He seems to jump first and not really think about the consequences or risks of what he's doing."  These comments were some of the only ones I got about him.  ....  Within months of these remarks, I was suddenly persona non Grata with these folks, and now haven't seen them in years ....  Ah, life.

I do believe that in part of d's heart she was thrilled, after 12 years, to finally have some time alone really traveling with XNH and that they both feel it has strengthened their R.  To an extent this would certainly be expected.  Going forward what's to be watched, however, is whether/when his monthly rages resume, whether/when his abuse of her continues and how much of his annoyance will now be directed toward NW ***AND*** whether he'll now try to triangulate d with himself and NW setting up a competition between them because d's become more of his action-oriented travel companion (new best friend/supply target formally replacing me to influence because his objective is to keep custody) than I could remain, or than NW has ever been.  This prospect hit me today like an anvil, and I could see a possibility of it happening insidiously.

It concerns me that I don't come across as telling her, "Don't pick his lifestyle, pick mine," when that's not my purpose.  (Well, OK, maybe it IS "Don't pick his lifestyle" in general.)  On one of their attempted ski days the wind was 80 mph and XNH and friends opted to go ski.  THAT IS NUTS.  I'd counseled d about being up front to say "No thanks" to any proposed activity that concerned her, so she begged out of that and I was pleased to learn that she'd used her Voice.  What she still gets to witness, though, is that XNH goes and does it anyway to get his adrenalin rush.  

You're describing my overall concern:  That d comes to understand, by tangible example, what generally constitutes "offbeat behavior" -- before it happens, not on the moment when she's gotta decide to jump in or not.  How to discuss this when kids her generation don't want to be boxed in to what constitutes Normal?

I can't believe d spent two full days on their trip sitting in a cafe reading Harry Potter books.  Then again, maybe I can ....

Earlier this week d mentioned a banking guy from CDN with whom they were skiing as she told me he was renting an SUV and driving himself, herself and XNH into a remote area.  His description of being in the same city with his w but she was on a spa holiday with her gfs and they did nothing together, sounded a little "off" so I told her, "Just because you know the man's name and that he's from Canada, doesn't mean that you know the man."  Yesterday I asked her whatever had happened to their road trip.  To her credit, d told me that she'd found him to be a little "too happy", "too salesy" (FLAGS), that, "The only subject he seemed to want to discuss was skiing."  (FLAG)  She said they hadn't seen him in two days ....  You know what goes through my mind when she has these kinds of encounters with XNH?  I have no idea what XNH's motives are when he picks up a single man like that, or what they might discuss when d is out of earshot ....  It may just be my prejudice, but I still find XNH suspect in terms of his predilections.

Here's another comparative:  If I were to describe the details of this trip to my own father, he'd say that he'd never had entire weeks away with "the guys" during his marriage, that except for weekends spent with men friends on day activities, or very infrequent trips, things were done together as a couple or as a family.  He's already said that XNH even taking d on this trip was inappropriate and certainly the bait-and-switch was to be anticipated.  He'd think it would be beyond inappropriate for XNH to pick up strays to tag along with d during their supposed holiday together to focus on each other.  To me these reactions are Normal, and they're most of what I hear from local parents/mothers when I share these things.  When I try to excuse them away as generational or East Coast uptight v. West Coast relaxed/liberal, I realize that THAT excusing away was just what brought me to entangling myself with someone like XNH in the first place:  Getting too far away from the foundation Self that I was and allowing my boundaries of comfort, safety and tolerance to be crossed too early, too often and, in the end, too severely.  So I'm NOT inclined to give XNH the benefit of the doubt but to keep trusting my own gut !@#(*&$%^(*.

Oh, re: XNH treating d like a w/playmate, I can tell you for certain that almost all the activities they've done on this trip were things XNH used to do ... with me (so where's his own w? -- the woman about whom d recently said, "I don't know why dad married her.").

Droning on here on a Friday evening ... I hope you get my drift ....  Finally, it also occurs to me that throughout this trip d may have been sharing my travel advice/strategies with XNH -- showing herself to have things well in hand.  This would jibe with him consistently through time not knowing how to parent except to parrot me.

Thanks for your support.  I'm continuing to keep my ears open and believe what she Skypes me/the words she uses to express things, and definitely want to lead her by the example of the two of us taking the next international trip together as two women, so she gets another view and understands the value of another set of behaviors.

NewWings4MeNow

[Reflector]

Wings, all I can say is I'm sure glad today is the 29th and your d is back home under your safe watch.

Reflector

[RB22]

NewWings,

I  understand completely about traveling with you and her learning another set of values... one where she is valued for herself...not as a stage prop to his life.

Hoping she arrived home safe and sound... and without incident.    A girl can hope, I don't expect it will be so... but I am hoping anyway.

Hugs for you and for D,

RB

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hi, thanks for your kind wishes and yes, d is back with me now, tired and getting cleaned up.  All she talked about was the movies she saw on the plane rides, and how she doesn't think being home is boring or drab in comparison to the experiences she's had.  I'm going to hang back a bit and just let things unfold and see how/whether she expresses herself.  She's had very little to say about the trip so far, and zero to say about her time with XNH.

On an interesting/oddball/very telling related note:  We did exchange at our regular local shopping center.  D and I stayed for gelato and I thought XNH had gone off.  She and I sat at a table on the sidewalk outside the gelato place and XNH passed directly in front of us within five feet and purposefully turned away as he walked (and didn't address us) but, just as he passed us, you know how distance runners sometimes empty their noses hard while they're running? (XNH used to do this in front of me and I hated it/thought it was rude, and all he'd say was, "I can't breathe".)  Well today, just as he passed us, I noticed that his face looked hard and emotionless, he emptied his nose right in front of us into the air/onto the sidewalk, and kept walking.

Yeah, yeah, I know, those things don't happen by accident ....  This was XNH's wacko version of a victory dance:  "NewWings, yes, I took d to Argentina, and I snot on you."  

Since I saw him about a month ago he's been lifting weights and now walks like Mr. Musclebound Buff Guy.  Entering another somatic phase ....

And yes, d noticed that he passed us and didn't speak to or acknowledge even her -- though she didn't seem to mind or care.

Maybe it's me ... feel free to chime in.  In my whole life living anywhere else, I never knew a man who did this in public as part of street behavior, let alone in overt defiance of someone's simple request.

Tonight we'll try to move d toward the right time zone.

And d has now said that she loves air travel and wants to go to Morocco at Christmas.  Let the adventure continue ....

NewWings4MeNow

[betterdays]

Are you saying he blew his nose without a tissue?  If so, why not just urinate on your chair?  I have never hear or seen this before.  Is he from a place where tissues are scarce, or did he grow up very deprived?  I cannot imagine this.

[Reflector]

Wings, glad the suspense is over and that you and d can get back to normal living again... clearing nose and everything else.

[NewWings4MeNow]

Hi,

Among d's post-trip tidbits shared so far was her restaurant dinner with XNH where, she said, they behaved like drunk people and talked to each other thus ....  An interesting jumping-off point for:

The "radical self-expression", clothing/naked-optional, counter-culture/artsy event Burning Man is happening now/this weekend in the U.S. desert.

I saw it trending on Yahoo so read about its history/statistics, and also some and found terrific Wikipedia entries covering the entire counter-culture movement.  (I was nine in 1968 with an experimental older brother who went to the Watkins Glen festival after Woodstock, so I stood on the perimeter as the "white sheep" sister viewing it happen.)

The Wiki read like a complete explanation of XILs' family and XNH's upbringing, beliefs, lifestyle and behaviors (wrapped in Audis/BMWs, Chez Panisse dining and boutique clothes) -- that I've described as "swimming upstream", "openly defiant" etc.  

Anyway, last year XNH went to Burning Man with XNSIL/XBIL and w/o NW.

D told me tonight that XNH is there now, all week.  That NW isn't going, that "she hates Burning Man" and that d herself tried to persuade XNH to not go (how pathetic is that?).  We had quite a conversation about her not being able to change a molecule about him or about a lifestyle that he clearly really likes.  D told me he'd said to her that, "Other people go for the drugs; I go for the artwork."  I almost fell off my dining chair laughing, and explained to her that of course he'd tell her that and how much he enjoys all artwork while psychedelically enhanced.  She commented that, when she was in a younger grade, XNH went to her school and handed out anti-drug leaflets during their Red Ribbon Days.  Again I was guffawing, explaining to her the "great dad" front.

I told d that I really feel sorry for NW -- XNH was away with d for two weeks, then away at Burning Man for a week.  Truly a part-time H.  

Cautioned her to not even try to change who he is, what he believes/enjoys, and we talked about her main possible paths (since she currently/post-trip seems to defend XNH's lifestyle even rolling her eyes at me when I mentioned that the movement started in Berkeley and San Francisco (XNH FOO locations) -- which, I reminded her, are simply historical facts and reality):

- Agree with it and adopt it as her own
- Agree that it's a person's choice and don't adopt it
- Don't agree with it and don't adopt it

D says she wants nothing to do with it, insists she could "tell" if XNH had been doing drugs and said she's seen kids at school whom she believes were stoned.  We chatted through that one as well; these topics are tough because d can handle it intellectually, but her sadness is also evident.

I suggested that, at some point, if she REALLY wants to understand the history of the era, when I'm nowhere around, she should just take a look at the Wiki counter-culture entry herself, and it will connect a lot of the dots for her.

I think XNH's parallel lives are gonna catch up with him at some point.

From this reading experience I'm not at all surprised at any, any of XNH's illegal/defiant behaviors and bold lying going forward and it's clear to me that our marriage HAD to end -- as his to NW may sooner or later (since she's a political society gal from Philly).

Oh cr*p, what a thing to be saddled with.

NewWings4MeNow sad for d but continuing to live stalwartly in truth and fact

[RB22]

NewWings,

Tough conversations to have with your D... sounds like she is on the cusp of getting the whole (true) picture (of him) very soon. 

Be there to steady her when she does..... it helped my D that she had people who had him figured out, for her support.  She NEEDED it.

Hugs,

RB <<<<< waiting for the other 3 to see X's true picture.

[NewWings4MeNow]

RB,

As d nears her more knowing moment it's ever-important for me to reinforce to her that certain of XNH's behaviors are his voluntarily choice, and to help her understand that she can separate herself from him and that she's not destined for any specific pre-determined Dark Side road because she shares his DNA.  

Just like this realization frightened me about my own FOO at separation, I can see how it scares her -- and I'd rather she goes through the knowledge and adjustment now early in her life so she can grow past it to more individuation and I can be close at hand to help and support her through it.

Recognizing the power of this self-determination goes a long way toward creating backbone which d will need and which will be to her benefit decades before mine has been to me.

Thanks for your support,

NewWings4MeNow

[CZBZ]

I'd have been frantic should my kids be traveling with their father without ME there to make sure he remembered they were with him. LOL! I don't know how people can stand letting their kids go to foreign countries with an X but you don't really have a choice, do you? It's that old rock-and-a-hard-place decision. Keep the kids from traveling and they'll hate you. Allow them to travel and they'll hate you for not protecting them when N-parent forgot they were even there.

I had time to read your whole thread, Wings and really, you weren't overreacting considering the circumstances. I hope it helped being able to 'post' your thoughts to forum members, maybe it sooths the anxiety a little? Because I can say for darn sure, I'd have lain awake all night wondering about my kid being stranded on a mountaintop or breaking her leg on a slope far beyond her skill level or maybe being stolen from the cafe where he left her for the day.

My imagination can be a wild place, which I know about myself so taking precautions is sometimes necessary---like telling people my wildest fears and then working back from there. You did great on this thread, Wings! Truly! Any woman would be anxious, especially after the 'hitting' incident.

He probably is using his daughter as a traveling companion because his wife is not interested in accompanying him anymore. Such is the life of the N's partner.

I am SURE though, that your daughter is aware of how she feels, what is appropriate and what isn't and even if she likes her father's attention (who doesn't?!), she has a solid grounding in herself. She also has resources: people she can turn to. She really isn't like so many teenagers with a N-pareNT who are completely clueless about the crazy dynamics.

I also wanted to add that yes, your daughter may select a partner with narcissistic traits and that's always a concern for us as mothers. However, narcissistic traits do not a NPD'er make! I believe (maybe it's my romantic side) that two people with narcissistic traits CAN help each other come to peace with themselves IF both of them are committed to self-responsibility. So when you post about your daughter's engagement........LOL....then we can really dig into a discussion! 

Sounds to me like your daughter had a good time with her Dad and he wasn't too obnoxious or neglectful. THAT is a huge huge relief!


Hugs,
CZ