Anyone read Robin Norwood - Women who love too much?

[LDW]

My integrative psychotherapist (god, never thought I was going to see one...) advised me to read it. Does this mean I have co-dependency issues... I mean some of the traits really do ring a bell, but others truely don't... I mean; I'm not from a dysfunctional / addiction background and no I'm NOT in denial.. really my parents are good people... No horrifying stories of mental abuse as such... they are kind and good people.
Anyway... would love to hear if you've read this book and if you thought it was useful.

thanks!!!
L

[SusyP14]

It is one of my all time favorite books (see my quote below quotes her).  I think it is fantastic and loved Letters from Women Who Love Too Much and Daily Meditations from WWL2M just as much as her first book.

Robin Norwoods does not discuss anything about Narcs or personality disorders in her book, but I am a moderator on the WWL2M board on Daily Strength.  People find that board after the read the book (it is widely recommend by therapists - I also read it on the recommendation of my therapist) and at the end of the book she tells you to find a support group.  When I googled WWL2M Support groups, I found the DS board.

I promise you that 99% of the women that hit that board have been with pathologicals even though they do not know it yet.  I am afraid I have turned it into the Women Who Love Narcs board.  But it is not like I try to steer people that way.  They come in and post their introduction story and it has pathology written all over it.

I have sent quite a few of the people from Daily Strength to this board, because of course NOTHING compares to the intelligence, compassion and knowledge that I have received from WoN.

I found the book very worthwhile (obviously).  I would say it is less about co-dependency and more about what we allow to go on in relationships.  Let me know your opinion once you read it.

[SusyP14]

Here is a good summation of WWL2M:

Relationships should not make you feel clingy, anxious and insecure. Yet, since that is all we know, we think this is normal and we call it love.

Essentially, women who love too much are those who are always seeking love and affection from partners who are unavailable. Their unavailability may stem from such problems as their alcoholism, narcissism, fear and avoidance of intimacy, rage, inability to form lasting attachments.

Many women and men will get actually attached on the feeling of love, on the intense chemical revolution that is sparked within the brain by the projections awakened by this feeling and will engage in unhealthy forms of love.

More often than not love is misinterpreted as attachment, illusion spiced with its intimate friends, possessiveness and jealousy all along the ride.

Women who love too much are women who will keep investing in a relationship although all the signs tell them that they should move on. Women who love too much are those who give too many second chances, women that will hold an irrational hope that things will change or get better, even after years of progressive decline of the relationship.

Women who love too much are women who will keep giving and giving, without getting not nearly half in return, are women who misunderstand forgiveness with naivite.

[honeybearII]

Women who love too much are women who will keep investing in a relationship although all the signs tell them that they should move on. Women who love too much are those who give too many second chances, women that will hold an irrational hope that things will change or get better, even after years of progressive decline of the relationship.

Women who love too much are women who will keep giving and giving, without getting not nearly half in return, are women who misunderstand forgiveness with naivite.

Suzy, thanks for posting these quotes.  I read that book ALSO on advice of my therapist, and it was an eye-opener for me.  Robin Norwood NAILS IT.  These two above quotes, in particular, struck me because they defined my former relationship with exNH.  It went on for 32 years, and it was only toward the end in trying to extricate myself from my unhealthy attachment to him (I no longer call it "love" because it WASN'T THAT), did I finally see my own issues with boundaries, wishy-washy lines in the sand.  I forgave and forgave and he took and took.  Also, I had a huge awakening when I realized how little I was getting in return for my years of investment. 

And yes - forgiveness sometimes IS naivite. 
Thanks for posting these!
Honey

[LDW]

Hi Susy and Honeybear, thanks for the replies.

I could observe my own behaviour in this relationship as 'off'. Something was not right but I tried to look in myself at what it was that made me behave and feel the way I did... instead of looking at what HE did. Sometimes I think that if I had known the kind of pathology I was dealing with, things wouldn't have escalated the way they did. On the other hand I also know that if I had been able to set boundaries and had I known myself and my needs first, things wouldn't have escalated the way they did. This is where the confusion comes in, he turned from a very understanding and supportive partner who claimed to want an equal relationship into someone who did not trust me, who questioned my motives and who gradually started to chip away at my self-esteem. What I'm trying to say is; I do NOT want to be talked into having a disease (that's what she calls it) like 'co-dependency' when there's no attention paid to what it is that these a%#holes do to anyone who gets involved with them. I allowed the abuse to go on because I had no idea that it was abuse. Mental abuse (like manipulation) can be very subtle and hard to recognise... And in the end I DID draw that line but only AFTER having tried to make it work (and concluding that it was not going anywhere), which I still think is not about 'loving too much' or confusing forgiveness for naivety. Do you know what I mean?

[CZBZ]

"I could observe my own behaviour in this relationship as 'off'. Something was not right but I tried to look in myself at what it was that made me behave and feel the way I did... instead of looking at what HE did. Sometimes I think that if I had known the kind of pathology I was dealing with, things wouldn't have escalated the way they did. On the other hand I also know that if I had been able to set boundaries and had I known myself and my needs first, things wouldn't have escalated the way they did. This is where the confusion comes in, he turned from a very understanding and supportive partner who claimed to want an equal relationship into someone who did not trust me, who questioned my motives and who gradually started to chip away at my self-esteem. What I'm trying to say is; I do NOT want to be talked into having a disease (that's what she calls it) like 'co-dependency' when there's no attention paid to what it is that these a%#holes do to anyone who gets involved with them. I allowed the abuse to go on because I had no idea that it was abuse. Mental abuse (like manipulation) can be very subtle and hard to recognise... And in the end I DID draw that line but only AFTER having tried to make it work (and concluding that it was not going anywhere), which I still think is not about 'loving too much' or confusing forgiveness for naivety. Do you know what I mean?" ~LDW


I've been around and around this gerbil wheel myself, LDW. I dislike labeling anyone who was with a narcissist. I do not subscribe to the concept of codependency as it is universally applied to women. There are far more factors that are left out of the equation such as cultural grooming, gender socialization, generational modeling, the N-relationship itself, etc.

I also dislike giving labels to people who were involved in a narcissistic relationship because in a very perverse manner, it suggests someone has a pathology prior to meeting the narcissist. In other words, it blames the victim. This is subtle. However subtle it may be or however well intended the advice might be, it is a 'blame the victim' mentality which horrifically suggests the victim was codependent and therefore CAUSED or ATTRACTED the narcissist into his or her life.

Not everyone agrees with me and that's fine. We each ought be able to have our own opinions backed up with experience and research, right? On this forum however, some people find it helpful to talk about codependent behaviors as a result of the narcissistic relationship that reaffirms or causes codependent behaviors.

The other reason I don't particularly like the concept of codependency is because the TRUE codependent is a narcissist. True codependency, or what we might call 'pathological codependency' is a state of undeveloped narcissism.

Society has taken the idea of codependency and filtered it down to apply to women (for the most part) as a way for them to examine their dysfunctional behaviors that are robbing them of authentic power and 'self'. This has been helpful to many people! Not so helpful to others.

You might read Norwood's book (I have not) and consider the behaviors she is describing as being the RESULT of the narcissistic relationship.

Every narcissistic relationship erodes the other person's self-confidence and esteem.

Every narcissistic relationship destroys our self-esteem, causing behaviors we might never develop in a 'normal' relationship.

Books about codependency can be useful in pinpointing how our brains are programmed (brainwashed) BY the narcissistic relationship but it does NOT mean we are 'clinically codependent'.

Make a clear distinction between pathological codependency and relational codependency caused by the pathological relationship!

I do not subscribe to the concept of codependency as it is universally applied. My stance is similar to feminists reactions when the psychological community argued about adding 'self defeating personality disorder' to the DSM. Feminist psychologists were concerned (as they ought be) that women would be erroneously stereotyped as 'asking for their abuse' because they were masochists, i.e.: self-defeating.

Paula Caplan, author of They Say You Are Crazy (GREAT BOOK, used copies are cheap on Amazon) has been a phenomenal defender of women's "Normal" reactions to abusive relationships. When mostly male psychologists were arguing about including the Self Defeating personality Disorder in the DSM-IV, she championed enough resistance to prevent another disorder being used against women.

What she did was quite genius. She formulated a disorder for review and potential addition to the DSM: The Delusional Dominating Personality Disorder.

I do not subscribe to the concept of codependency as 'fluid' as it has become in application to women in general.

Are there women who are narcissists and thus, pathologically codependent? YES. Shall we just call them narcissists then? YES.

However, many people find it very useful to understand codependency on a continuum, just as we do healthy-to-unhealthy narcissism. but puh-lease. No Labels.

Let me ask, LDW, is your treating therapist male?


Hugs,

CZ

P.S. Prior to recent understanding of the Borderline Personality Disorder, women were being categorized as BPD when in fact, they were suffering PTSD from that ''delusional dominating personality disorder" Caplan suggested in her book.

Now, as research verifies the emotional trauma of the N-relationship, many psychologists are BEGGING the psychological community to avoid diagnosing any woman In or OUT of the N-relationship. I feel similarly about the 'codependent' label but frankly, my voice is like a peanut shell in the wind. What each of us must do is reason through the information and decide for ourselves whether or not the codependent label fits. If you were with a narcissist, my guess is that your behaviors are the RESULT of the N-relationship and not an aspect of your personality. Consider ALL your relationships, please. You will likely discover that the way you related to the N was contrary to your other relationships.

If however, the codependent label helps you to recognize and change your behavior, then WoNderful! Naming something is most of the battle, right?

My hope is that it will not undermine people's struggle restoring their self-esteem.

[LettingGo]

You might read Norwood's book (I have not) and consider the behaviors she is describing as being the RESULT of the narcissistic relationship. ~ CZ

The reason I resist in labeling a victim of an N-counter as a co-dependant is that it is counterproductive to counseling & often creates the opposite result than one intends and as CZ stated, it is victim blaming instead of empowering. When we label a person a co-dependent to me it is a self-fulfilling prophecy and the person concludes I am in a toxic relationship (w/a N), be(cause) I am a co-dependent which is very different from I am a co-dependent be(cause) I am in a toxic relationship (w/a N). It is that Cause and Effect that must be in correct order. My research bia is that we must focus on Cause and Effect rather than correlations which is nearly impossible because we can not control the confounding variable as CZ has mentioned,  "There are far more factors that are left out of the equation such as cultural grooming, gender socialization, generational modeling, the N-relationship itself, etc." Because we can not control these confounding variable we must look at what is constant regardless of the different confounding variable and we find one Constant Cause. . . Can you guess what it is? Regardless of all our different backgrounds, factoring out religion, socio-economic background, educational background, physical attributes, cultural grooming, gender socialization, generational modeling, -- did I forget anything? Regardless of these very influential variables, the one thing we all have in common, the one thing that is constant in each of our N-counters is the pathological N. Sure there are other things that contribute and support the toxic relationship, they are sufficient, but they are Not NECESSARY to have a toxic relationship, the only thing that is NECESSARY for an N-counter is a N.

I have said this before in another thread, the conclusion or lesson of the KoN is not to change how we love, but who we love. They only thing we need to educate ourselves about,  and accurately identify and label is LOVE, the Counterfeit/Toxic vs the Authentic.
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7242.0.html
How do we know that the N is only offering Counterfeit/Toxic Love if we don't know about Authentic Love. In other words, we don't know what we are missing.

Labeling/Identifying relationships rather than victims as co-dependent will empower the victims and coach or guide them out of the KoN instead of weighing them down and shackling them with the ball & chain of co-dependency that often leads to a life sentence w/out the possibility of parole. We are not a prisoner to the co-dependency of the N-counter. Co-dependency is an ugly, hideous, disgusting suit that the N tailors for us and convinces us to put on and wear. The N lies to us and says it fits perfect and if there are no other mirrors around we believe his/her projected lies. Until one day we begin to notice the constraints of this toxic outfit of co-dependency and notice our true reflection in someone else's loving eyes then we realize that the outfit of co-dependency is not suited for us and we hand it back to the N who replies all I have to offer you are outfits of co-dependency and we reply, I can not wear them anymore because I out grew them and they no longer fit. Come to think about it,   those ugly, hideous, flimsy, constraining outfits woven w/toxic strings never suited me well from the very beginning, I just didn't realize that I could shop somewhere else to find something tailored made for me that would support & compliment who I am. I will not allow myself to be clothed in co-dependency. Some people take this toxic outfit off all at once and some replace one item at a time until they are completely independent of the KoN.

[CZBZ]

WoW, LettingGo! That was a powerful post! 


Hugs,
CZ

[LettingGo]

  Thank you CZ. I hope what I said made sense to someone other than me. I never know if I am explaining my thoughts clearly, so feedback is great, especially from WoNderful woman of WoN who I greatly appreciate and value.

The trouble I have w/the co-dependency research started back in the 80's when I volunteered for an undergraduate extra credit research experiment. I took one of the co-dependency tests, (I honestly can not recall how I scored, I'm guessing it was high due to the types of questions that made up the test) at the time I was LC w/the Momster and was NC w/Counterfeit Prince #1, yet scored as a Card Carrying Co-dependent, if I am recalling correctly. I definitely did not fit the stereotypical profile of a female co-dependent.  After taking the test, you can opt to talk about the test & the research w/the experimenter which I did. The question I asked her, which she had no answer for at the time and said that I brought up a good point was,
What is the difference between being Co-dependent and being in Love? The same attributes of co-dependency mimics a person being in love. The answer of course would be the presence or absence of Toxic Love vs. Authentic Love which would be contributed to the N in the relationship not the victim. True pathological co-dependent relationships are based on Toxic/Counterfeit Love from the N. Therefore, it is the N's Toxic/Counterfeit Love that creates the co-dependency and not the person who loves too much implying that normal people love incorrectly (which I disagree with) or at least disportionately (which I can agree with). When you supply authentic love and the N supplies toxic/counterfeit love then the relationship not the victim is pathological, and it is the toxic relationship that causes the normal person to become out of balanced due to the loss of self. It is not necessarily how we invest (too much or too little), but who we invest in (normal or pathological). Co-dependent tests (at least the original ones) measure how we love not who we love. Very passionate people will score high on co-dependent tests. I bet if I took a co-dependent test I would still score high and I am definitely not in a co-dependent relationship. When it comes to tests, we must make sure it is accurately measuring what it is designed to measure and nothing else.

[honeybearII]

Add me to the list of people who really dislike the "co-dependency" label for women who are enmeshed in a relationship with an N.  While I recognize that after 32 years I was definitely enmeshed into the craziness of trying to make that marriage work with exNH, I never saw myself as "co-dependent".  CO-dependent implies that BOTH partners meet some kind of need in each other that is unhealthy.  The real sadness of being with an N is that while WE might get to the place where we believe we cannot live without them (and usually that comes after a long time of manipulation, gaslighting, and other abusive behavior), the N NEVER REALLY NEEDS US. 

That is why they can walk away and never look back.  So there is no CO in the dependency thing.  I prefer to look at it as being unhealthily enmeshed with someone who cannot love the way I can love.  While I know I cared deeply for him and tried every which way to "fix" the marriage and the issues, I don't believe he EVER really loved me because I don't believe he can every really love anyone but himself when push comes to shove.

Honey

[LDW]

hi LettingGo and CZ, thanks again for your feedback. My therapist is a woman and I don't think she wants to label me, she said to me; sometimes it's just ok to name it and start working from there and bring in / work on the stuff that does ring a bell. I mean this n-experience still influences the way I behave and think, even after two years of breaking up... and that bothers me.

Come to think about it, those ugly, hideous, flimsy, constraining outfits woven w/toxic strings never suited me well from the very beginning, I just didn't realize that I could shop somewhere else to find something tailored made for me that would support & compliment who I am. I will not allow myself to be clothed in co-dependency. Some people take this toxic outfit off all at once and some replace one item at a time until they are completely independent of the KoN. ~ LettingGo

LettingGo, the part in which you say that you didn't realise that you could shop somewhere else to find something tailor made... is that in itself - just like I said that I did NOT recognise the abuse for abuse - not the co-dependency issue unconsciously acting out? Or would you explain it differently? Please do not take offense, I'm trying to understand without wanting to hurt anyone.

CZ, again... you have such a way of putting things into perspective... whahaha... the Delusional Dominating Personality Disorder as a counter label to psychiatrists wanting to add the Self-Defeating Personality Disorder to the DSM, what a great idea. I must admit though my behaviours have been quite self defeating the last couple of months... that's why I went to see a therapist again. I guess I'm trying to find out what you concluded in your last post: are my behaviours the RESULT of this n-relationship or are these aspects of my personality? It's all still quite confusing..

Anyway thanks again for the feedback, I will definately discuss all this with her, it's also a relieve to be able to address the parts that are still unresolved in the aftermath...

[LettingGo]

Psychologist & psychiatrist just like traditional docs get into the habit of labeling people because they want to identify what they have learned in their textbooks. They often get caught up with the bark of the tree or bark of the N and miss the forest through the trees, they miss the over-all Big Picture.

LDW, I am not a person who is easily offended, so please never feel worried to ask me something. I totally understand your T's position to Name It to Claim IT to Change IT. Would she be open to defining the relationship as Co-D rather than her client (you)?

LettingGo, the part in which you say that you didn't realise that you could shop somewhere else to find something tailor made... is that in itself - just like I said that I did NOT recognise the abuse for abuse

Most definitely. You don't know until you know. If you experienced overt and obvious abuse growing up the covert and more subtle forms of abuse, the gaslighting etc. is harder to detect. When I was a child my source for love was very limited to one very toxic supply, then as my world grew larger I realized that I could shop else where. The N N-chants us into believing that s/he is the only source of "True Love". What we eventually realize is that (1) N are not the only source (2) they are a toxic source, thus we got to shut this source down. If you only shop at a different store, pick out a great outfit then go show it off to the N -- what will s/he do? Throw green toxic slime all over your pure white cashmere sweater.

I guess I'm trying to find out what you concluded in your last post: are my behaviours the RESULT of this n-relationship or are these aspects of my personality? It's all still quite confusing..

LDW, kind of like the chicken or the egg, which came first? Which is the Cause and Which is the Effect? Let me ask you a question, Who was the first N in your life? A Parent? Did you feel loved, valued, appreciated, cared for, etc when you were a child? Nparents teach require us to be CO-D, it is a beyond a simple learned behavior, it is deep programing and brainwashing. Have you made some notable changes? Can you say to yourself about your personal growth, well hey I am not quite where I want to be, but thank God I am not where I use to be--I'm definitely not that "bad" anymore? Bad = any attribute that you do not desire.

[kericoba3]

LDW,
     The way you are feeling and the questions you are asking are probably some of the same ones we all ask ourselves when we are dealing with a relationship with a N.  Doesn't matter if that N was a parent, friend or spouse, they caused us damage that we must undo.  I read Robin Norwood's book and I struggled with the idea that I was "Co-Dependent".  My therapist recommended I read it too.  I walked away thinking it was a good book and it opened my eyes to things I had not thought of but I also could not relate to some of her scenarios because they just didn't apply to my life.
     I can tell you from experience that I endured abuse on many levels for a variety of reasons.  I am an extremely passionate, love with all my heart person and I wanted so much to love my STBXNH but it was impossible.  His abuse came in all forms.  Mostly mental abuse, verbal harassment, explosive temper over different things all the time so I never knew when it was coming or what would set him off.  He is INSANELY jealous and possessive of me and would invent scenarios in his mind of things that never happened and the go off on those.  He also was cruel and hurtful, betraying my trust by throwing in my face things I had confided in him about.  He was also physically abusive (towards the ending of the relationship mostly)and made me feel as though I were going crazy.  He would laugh at me and mock me when I would be in such a state of insanity after he pushed all my buttons and would then sit back and watch the "show" making me feel as though I was the crazy one.   As Honey stated earlier, loving someone that is INCAPABLE of loving you back is devastating.  To me, I couldn't comprehend that and thought my love could FIX him.  I was proved wrong harshly and repeatedly.  I am standing firm on my statement that I did not DESERVE or ENCOURAGE the abuse I received but for some reason, I did tolerate it.  I made excuses, blamed myself and tried to make it better.  WHY? Because I loved him.  I chose wrong. I know through therapy that me choosing this person was just a subconscious pattern of me repeating behavior I was trying to somehow correct. I was a victim but I do not think I attracted this person.  I don't think I had a blinking sign that said "loves too much, easy prey" but I do think that my passion made it easy for me to love him and want to help him and he knew it.  He knew I would be the person he could manipulate.

     I do agree with you that more is not looked at their behavior and instead is focused on our behavior but your therapist is looking at you right now because you are the only one she can help.   You have learned the hard way that you can't fix him and he is not about to change.  The only one that changes here is you and you have to focus on you and your healing.  No one wants to sit here and think we have a disease but I think we all feel like for some strange reason we ignored red flags, made excuses, looked the other way and somehow thought our love and devotion would be enough to get them to love us back.  It never will be enough no matter who you are.  My therapist focuses on helping me identify my true self, something I lost in this nightmare of a relationship.  But I am also seeing that I didn't have a strong sense of who I really was before I met N so he had an easier time chipping away at my self esteem because it was not where it should have been.  I have to look at myself now and I cannot focus on him, even though he was a huge a$$hole to me on a daily basis.   His behavior has damaged me and destroyed me to the soul but I am healing and fighting back.  There is nothing wrong with you or any one of us except we loved more than we were loved and we gave more of ourselves then we ever got in return.  Eventually enough was enough and we left.  Unfortunately the pain did not stop the day he left our lives.  For most of us, the healing process has brought its fair share of pain.  But this time I am working through that healthy pain to find myself and not for someone else.

hugs,

Keri

[betterdays]

Thanks for this thread.  There are many kinds of people in r/s with N's, ranging from healthy to PD's.  You don't have to have a flaw to love a deceiver, you just have to be in love. 

[LDW]

My therapist focuses on helping me identify my true self, something I lost in this nightmare of a relationship.  But I am also seeing that I didn't have a strong sense of who I really was before I met N so he had an easier time chipping away at my self esteem because it was not where it should have been. ~ Keri

When you supply authentic love and the N supplies toxic/counterfeit love then the relationship not the victim is pathological, and it is the toxic relationship that causes the normal person to become out of balance due to the loss of self. It is not necessarily how we invest (too much or too little), but who we invest in (normal or pathological). ~  LettingGo

Keri, right on... I hope I will find myself back with a little help from the won forum and therapy.

LettingGo, well... one thing is for sure: I invested too much in a pathological relationship, aaaahhh in hindsight it's always 20/20 

[LettingGo]

LDW, I invested way too much to, decade after decade. you are so right about the hindsight.   You just gave me an idea for a new topic!

For me I wouldn't pick up a book titled Woman who love too much, but I would be interested in reading a book titled Women who loved to long. I don't believe it is about how we love, but who we love and for how long.

As Betterdays said, anyone can be deceived. It is not about how we got into the KoN, but how we escape it.

[CZBZ]

This is l-o-n-g reply. Pack a lunch, LDW!

You might suggest your therapist takes a look at Sandra Brown's book, Women Who Love Psychopaths. The title might be more off-putting than Women Who Love Too Much, but Sandra Brown's research is current, based on a small group of participants who were with Men Who Could Not Love At All.

The rest of us might have met and loved Men Who Love Too Little; appropriately externalizing the deficit in the partner and not herself.

As a layperson, I'm not sure you can ever love too much and no doubt Norwood would say the same thing. The difference is how someone defines 'love' which might be more accurately described as: Women Trapped in a Trauma Bond. There are so many dynamics in an abusive relationship that it's impossible to pinpoint ONE thing that has created a dysfunctional bond between the abuser and his or her partner. This also applies to the dysfunctional bond between children and caretakers which is why it's impossible to generalize!

The journey each of us takes is personal and unique; this is our challenge to sort through the information that applies to us and shelve the information that doesn’t. I write ‘shelve’ it because you might want to review this information later.

As you wrote in the quote below, it is confusing for everyone, though sticking with the process, creating support for yourself, trusting your therapist's guidance, reviewing your childhood and learning about pathological relationships are ways to come to an understanding of your feelings, reactions, weaknesses, strengths and reasons for staying with the pathological as long as you did. It may not however, have anything to do with personal deficits.

"I must admit though my behaviours have been quite self defeating the last couple of months... that's why I went to see a therapist again. I guess I'm trying to find out what you concluded in your last post: are my behaviours the RESULT of this n-relationship or are these aspects of my personality? It's all still quite confusing.." ~LDW

This is my perception after working with people on WoN and also working on myself, tracking my healing for the past eight years:

When we have ended a pathological relationship, a window of opportunity opens, allowing us to probe more deeply into ourselves. Not everyone leaps at the chance to jump through this window but some do. Some people shut the window as soon as they can. They start feeling better, more at peace with what happened, and they don't feel a need to examine their childhood.

Some people take the opportunity (grieving softens boundaries so we can move deeper into ourselves) and if you are resilient enough to tolerate in-depth psychological work, you will emerge with greater self-awareness that is will improve your relationships for the rest of your life.

I also think people can do this work throughout their lives as they mature. It may not even be a conscious process for them if they are insightful and value relationships enough to confront themselves.

Trauma or 'disconnection' such as people experience with an abusive relationship, encourages deeper connection to ourselves. I would never say an abusive relationship results in deeper self-awareness though...it slows us down because we must first deal with the grief, the confusion, the introjected lies, the shame and blame we erroneously believed was ours to process. We do this first and then we move into another level of healing. The narcissist does not deserve an ounce of credit because we could also easily 'break' from the trauma. Trauma increases our defenses which we must first work through before we can start where we left off prior to the n.

And remember: We rescue ourselves after the N-relationship. We do this.

So...where was I going with this? O yea: "are my behaviours the RESULT of this n-relationship or are these aspects of my personality?"

It's not that easy to separate. Did you grow up in an intact, fairly functional family that modeled 'commitment' for you as a child? If you did, you may have assumed that relationship problems could be resolved if both partners were mutually committed. Did you see Good Will expressed by both your mother and father and most of the kin around you? If so, you may have assumed Good Will was a natural thing. When you started having problems in your adult relationship, you made choices based on your assumption about intimate relationships: no matter the problem, it could be resolved because both people were committed to self-responsibility.

So it is not only a dysfunctional childhood that leads to a narcissistic relationship. That is my point. Sometimes a good-enough family creates the same belief in Love as a natural and mutual outcome from intimacy.

Narcissists however, use tactics and behaviors that 'create' codependency in a partner. Overtime, if you stay with the narcissist, you will behave in ways that could be described as codependent. Those behaviors might be unconscious, even unfamiliar to the person you were prior to the N-relationship. When you read a book describing codependent behaviors, a light bulb goes off. Now you can name it, you can claim it, you can reframe it.

For example: Can you ever give too much to someone who is also giving too much? Your ability to love is only 'too much' when nothing is given back. Until a crisis of some kind when you would expect your partner to Love you enough to support you, you may not know they are incapable of loving you back. In hindsight, once you realize someone did not bond to you the way you assumed they had, it's easy to look at your behaviors and label them as codependent because NOW you are examining your relationship with knowledge of the 'ending'. At the time though, your behaviors would not be considered codependent because you assumed your partner was committed to the relationship.

In my opinion, most people have codependent traits that develop as a result of the N-relationship. If we are not codependent with the narcissist, he or she will leave the relationship. If we are not codependent when the relationship begins, we become more of a challenge to the narcissist. It’s doubtful a narcissist would even be attracted to a woman who was codependent, needy, weak, unable to stand up for herself or any of the traits describing codependency. Narcissists aren’t looking for ‘needy’ women. They are looking for someone who reflects well on them. Once the relationship begins though , the narcissist is so needy of reassurance we would never reject or abandon him, that he plays on our insecurities to make us dependent on him so he is reassured we won’t leave.

Books about codependency helped me confront my distorted thinking. If a man cheats on you, he doesn’t love you. Not in the way I deserve and want to be loved. After being with a narc though, your thinking goes like this: what is wrong with me that he has to cheat to be happy?

 

I actually like books about codependence. They serve as an explanation for the ‘fleas’ we pick up after running with dogs. As I integrated the woman I was with the one I became, it was obvious to me that my codependent traits (as described in layperson books) were the result of the pathological relationship. Had I partnered with someone who was self-responsible and ‘normal’, those traits would have matured with the maturing relationship. We’d probably develop a relationship that loved each other too much overtime!

P.S. Before narcissists leave, they become critical, punishing, using every angle they can find to make us feel inferior, twist our best qualities into defects, play on our weaknesses so we feel like we're worthless, incompetent and helpless...the list goes on, doesn't it? All these tactics are used to render us inferior BEFORE they leave. Then there is nothing to feel guilty about or envious of. We are deserving of our rejection for not meeting the Superior Narcissist’s expectations. He deserves better. He’ll probably find ‘better’ and when she is reduced to feeling inferior and worthless, he’ll leave again. Thus the N-cycle goes.

This means we are left with a garbage pile to clean up afterwards, sorting through what might be true about ourselves and what is not. This is difficult because narcissists enmesh partners. We aren't really sure what is OURs and what isn't. This is part of the healing process that requires a basic understanding of the narcissistic personality.

P.P.S. Some people  developed codependent traits from childhood but even they can work through their issues. If people with codependent traits partner with a narcissist, the narcissist will exacerbate their codependency. It is not in his benefit for her to develop a true and authentic, thus Independent Self.


Hugs
CZ

[NewWings4MeNow]

CZ-izmz:

"Did you see Good Will expressed by both your mother and father and most of the kin around you? If so, you may have assumed Good Will was a natural thing. When you started having problems in your adult relationship, you made choices based on your assumption about intimate relationships:  no matter the problem, it could be resolved because both people were committed to self-responsibility.  (At no point in my separation and D from XNH did he ever utter any syllables that remotely resembled, 'We're losing our marriage', 'I'm falling out of love with you and don't want that to happen', 'I want to be with you always and will do whatever it takes to save/work on/make our marriage the priority it deserves', 'I love you more than anyone in the world and nothing means more to me than our family'.  Zero.  XNH would talk about a R topic with me face-to-face for five minutes -- that was the average length of his communication investment; he didn't want to work and said, "I want to be in a R I don't have to work on."  (These were the types of conversations, OTOH, that my family's marriage partners would have had to have had in order for them to have lasted 50+ years.))

Your ability to love is only 'too much' when nothing is given back.

Narcissists aren’t looking for ‘needy’ women. They are looking for someone who reflects well on them.

I actually like books about codependence. They serve as an explanation for the ‘fleas’ we pick up after running with dogs.

As I integrated the woman I was with the one I became, it was obvious to me that my codependent traits (as described in layperson books) were the result of the pathological relationship."

LDW,

All of these comments, and more, from CZ's last post reflect my life experience before, during and after XNH.  My parents' marriage was a roller coaster of motoring along + occasional abusive times, all underscored by commitment.  I grew up assuming goodwill as part of a marriage, as I had multiple family healthy, long-term marriage examples to view.

In the year before XNH and I split, he withdrew from the marriage so my reaction was to do more to try to draw him back in, futilely, before I finally withdrew -- my version of loving too much when he'd left an obvious void.

When XNH and I met we were both in tech management and I wasn't "needy" until I became a SAHM and parent of a young d while he traveled the world on biz.  I reflected well on him until I got angry at his/his family's abuse of me and used my Voice to speak up.  

Just love the 'fleas and running with dogs' ....

The only two times in my life a man with whom I was in an R ever described me as mentally ill and attributed every problem to me, were both marriages to N/Ps.  Otherwise such comments have never been made to me.  Any co-dependent traits I learned I had (originating partly in traditional FOO teachings about a woman being the Domestic Goddess as a strategic choice so to not be stuck tired out in the breadwinner role when the male partner abdicated) resulted from work I did during those Rs -- and coincided with partners' lack/withdrawals of support, appreciation, admiration or respect for the very job I did very well as a SAHM and W (... who didn't bring in money, but was responsible for spending it).  The triggers were operating w/i those Rs in what I'd thought had been clearly negotiated/agreed upon roles, then having those partners both unilaterally order/issue edicts with threats that I had to go out and work that same week earning a six-figure salary or else, without my prior knowledge or agreement, thus changing the terms of our contract so I felt cornered, exposed, vulnerable, incapable of what was thrust upon me without preparation ....  In essence, telling me that I only had value in the R if I brought in money.

Hope these examples are helpful to you.

NewWings4MeNow

[LDW]

dear all... wow so much info again! you're all hitting the nail on the head, thanks for writing it all out, I sometimes have difficulty expressing myself in English since it's not my first language. CZ, I'm definately from a family that has given me much love and good will, like you said; I assumed we were in a relationship in which both partners were committed to self-responsibility. Indeed... I now realise that when he knew that (when I started to express myself in self-responsible ways to him), when he knew I was not going to be 'co-dependent' and started to put up boundaries... that's when the nasty mofo came out... the change in personality... still unbelievable and traumatic to think back at that time.

Much stuff to think about... will post again tomorrow! Off to bed now, thanks again everyone...

[SusyP14]

The title might be more off-putting than Women Who Love Too Much, but Sandra Brown's research is current, based on a small group of participants who were with Men Who Could Not Love At All.~CZ


CZ, Have I told you lately that you are genius?  Maybe that will be the title of MY book 

Actually I already have a title.  Exactly how much can I guote you before having to pay you royalities?   

[LettingGo]

WW & CZ -- Men Who Could Not Love At All. -- Sounds like a book I would be interested in reading and rec. How about you two WoNderful Ladies seriously think about writing a book together?  

I'd be willing to contribute two chapters on
Mothers Who Could Not Love At ALL and Sibs Who Could Not Love At All