Mother attempted suicide

[tillytoo9]

As it always is...there's more to the story....and I'm not sure how much to include.

I'm new here.  I've been reading old posts. 

I always thought my dad was the N.  Now, I see that my mom has great potential. 

From the earliest age, I was best friend to my mother- when she needed it, and cast aside when she didn't.  We have been close all of my life, from her protecting me from my dad's rage, to me listening to her gossip about coworkers.  I always believed my mom got a raw deal, and made sacrifices throughout my life to show her how dedicated, pure, real, and genuine I was to her.  I never, ever gossiped about her- even as I grew up hearing her criticize me to her friends.  I didn't judge her, as I always put her on a pedestal. 
A few things have changed-
Five years ago I talked to my mom everyday.  Three years ago I spoke to her every few days, but only when I called her.  Last year, I only spoke to her a handful of times.  Poor thing. 

Last year, I decided to put some space between myself and parents (as suggested by my healer/teacher/nutritionist Helen).  After a year or so, my mom tried, on several occasions to drop hints and suggestions, ideas, etc. that she was "letting me go through it", "figured I just needed some space", "didn't know what I did wrong, but I guess I did something", and so on.  I didn't respond, usually moving on quickly.  One day, on the phone, she took a break from gossiping about my niece and she said, "well, I can tell you are tired, I won't keep you, I'll just let you go.  Maybe you can call me when you feel better.". 

I responded by saying, "no mom, I am not tired. I can have this conversation right now." I went on to explain that I wasn't tired, I just wasn't interested in bashing her granddaughter (I didn't use those words with her, though).  I told her I didn't want to have conversations like this, I preferred to talk about her, me, our kids, things that are our business.  She, of course, got defensive.  Eventually, it opened up to "why I've been acting this way for the last year".  (referring to me and the distance I created).

This turned into what would become two weeks of phone calls, two counseling sessions, and a few emails.

  As we tried to work it out (one year later), I stayed firm, and during our discussions- which were an extremely different style than any previous times in our lives, she exemplified the role of a victim.  She has had a brain tumor, been fired twice, and suffered from cancer two times, almost dying 3 years ago.  All that AND she had a poor father (prolly N) and sometimes good, sometimes bad relationship with my dad (almost certainly an N).  I get it; NOT EASY.  But also, NOT my fault.  Not now, and not while I was growing up.
 I understood, reassured, and often empathized during our conversations.  But it did not change my overall goal- which was/is to limit my exposure to her and my dad until I was 'free' of their spell.

 Ultimately, despite her initial vocalized intentions of "doing whatever it takes to fix our relationship" and "I just want you to be happy, I miss you, I miss laughing with you", she arrived at a very different objective.  In the end (the deal lasted almost two weeks), she was preoccupied with the belief/perception that I was "blaming her for the very things I was doing" and "I should be willing to accept half the blame/fault." She was mad.  And I explained, several times, that it is not about blame, it's about how I want to live from now on.
She followed with "so if I don't agree with you, you are going to ignore me whenever you feel like it" and "I'd like to see how you'd do in my situation" and more.
 In the beginning she was humble, eager, and soft.  In the end, she was full of anger, resentment, and "I don't know what else to do" type attitude.
We said I love you and agreed there wasn't much more to say at the moment (it had been three hours).  She wanted me to spell out for her the way she was supposed to treat me from now on.  She wanted me to tell her how to act so she would not "get in trouble again".  As the conversation started back up again, I said "I have to go, no energy left."  We hung up in an ok way.

That was Saturday afternoon.  Sunday afternoon my dad called to say she was in the ER.  She had "taken a bunch of pills". 

Later, in a haze, she told the intake coordinator, as well as my dad, that she was "doing fine until things went bad with Tilly (me)".  On another occasion, she mentioned me again.  Both my siblings heard this more than once.  All the while my dad and physician talked about how cancer survivors do this sometimes- that it is somewhat common.  Two sides being presented.  Much talked about while I was NOT around. 
I don't blame myself, but it doesn't take a genius to see what's going on.

My kids need a kiss goodnight. 

Thanks for reading.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

[Litha]

welcome to WoN Tilly 

I'm glad you don't blame yourself for your mother's "drama" (I hesitate to call it a suicide attempt because I don't think suicide was ever the goal -- but drama certainly was). Maybe you can use it to your advantage,  by saying something like, "I see that talking these things over with Mom just leaves her upset, so maybe I should not talk to her for awhile, at least until she is feeling more stable."

It sounds like you are determined to be a good mother to your own children. I think the experience of becoming a mother was a turning point for many of us who grew up with a NM. When I experienced the overwhelming love and need to protect and nurture my child, that's when I understood that something was very wrong with my own mother. She very clearly did not feel that for me.

I hope you can get some rest tonight, and tell us more about yourself soon.

 
Litha

[inflatedheart]

First, I want to say how much I admire your bravery and determination to change and move forward with out this toxicity in your life. It is most definitely a difficult place to be and I understand how that feels. I am not sure how much you know about narcissism, so I apologize if this all sounds redundant to you. N's possess extremely fragile identities and do everything they can to reassure themselves that they are worthy, loved, important and so forth. This manifests as an extreme form of selfishness. As parents, they see their children as an extension of themselves; as simply sources of narcissistic supply. As such, you have no independent needs or wants and any attempts to have an equivocal and reciprocal relationship is doomed to fail. Based on what you shared about the early relationship you had with your mother, it sounds like she has been seeking you as a source of her emotional support (narcissistic supply) for a very long time. The fact that you felt unable to criticize her for speaking badly about you in public is evidence of the force that she's had on your life. As ACONs, we are vulnerable to criticism, tend to highly value our N parent(s) and try very hard to be the dutiful son/daughter since we have lived our whole lives catering to the N's needs and wants.

Clearly, the "suicide attempt" was about grasping at straws; she wants to keep you in the relationship because you are the source of narcissistic supply. When ACONs (adult children of narcissists) begin asserting their independence and autonomy, N's do all sorts of crazy things to try draw you back in. They feel furious that THEY are not the center of attention and fear losing the supply that they so desperately seek. For instance, when I found out that I had cancer, I began focusing all of my time and energy on caring for myself, leaving my N-mother without narcissistic supply. It also posed the threat that I could die and therefore would "leave her alone" etc. Somehow, my mother conned the nurses and staff to use her phone number once my biopsy results came back. When it finally came through, she broke the news to me in a coffee shop. When I told her that this was horrible, cruel and inappropriate, she made the whole thing about her. She threw a tantrum, storming out of the coffeeshop screaming and bawling dramatically; finally ending with her throwing her car keys at my head when I told her that I deserved better than this. You can see how a situation that should be about how you feel has been entirely shifted to her needs, wants and feelings and how crazy N's can act when they feel fragile and needy.

Also, your mother tried to humiliate and punish you by blaming you for her suicide attempt. How can YOU be the cause of her suicide attempt?? It is completely illogical and dysfunctional to claim that you somehow had something to do with her choice to self-harm. She decided on her own to try to take her own life and you cannot be blamed for her personal choice. This "attempt" also sounds a lot like the attention-seeking behaviors in individuals with Borderline Personality Disorder (which have narcissistic tendencies and orientation). They often engage in self-harm in a feeble attempt to keep away the feelings of abandonment and loneliness as well as bind other people to themselves. They will often blame their relationship with you as the reason for cutting, suicide attempts and so forth. Their interpersonal behaviors tend to be expressed in extreme polar opposites, from loving elation and affection to extreme hatred, self-loathing and anger. These people are extremely time-consuming and like you said, energy zapping. You might want to also consider the relationship that you have with the other members of your family. After the whole scene at the coffee shop, everyone talked without me present. My sister later told me that my Father said that I was to fault for this; that Mom was simply trying to support me, that Mom is under stress (LOL what about the stress I'm under??) etc. Their responses are totally illogical because tveryone in the family has learned to mold themselves around the Narcissist(s). It does not surprise me at all that your family members have been talking behind your back and that there is some sort of unspoken consensus. Trust that gut instinct of yours! It is totally correct!!

[tillytoo9]

Thanks to both of you...

It's difficult and exhausting to keep writing but easier for me if I blurt out details as they surface.  (Although not making much sense to any of you ....)

On Sunday, the day she did it, my dad was at an auction.  (perhaps she was punishing him, too.  she's annoyed by him leaving)
When he arrived home at around 2:15, my mom was passed out at the computer.  He woke her, and I suppose he saw an empty bottle?  I don't know- maybe he asked her?   She told him she took 18 pills at 1:00.  That struck me as weird.  Exact details.

And when she awoke at hospital, she said to my dad, "I thought I took enough pills so that I wouldn't wake up". 

Dad replied, "Why would you want to do that?  You've been doing so well lately."  (referring to recovery of cancer)
She replied, "I thought so too until all this with Tilly".  Then she added, "I got off the phone with her (referring to me) and started pacing.  I told my mom (she's referring to her mother who passed away 16 years ago), I said mom, I can't take all this turmoil anymore, it's just too much...And then I took the pills."


She refers to 'getting off the phone' with me THEN taking the pills but the phone call was actually the day before.  Not sure if she confused that or what.
Also, something I thought was strange----was that I discussed, on our last phone call the day before- how I had spent many moments feeling as thought I couldn't make it, that I struggled with thoughts of not wanting to live- and then when my second daughter was four, it got much worse.  I continued to explain to her how I felt overwhelmed, etc.  All of this explanation was part of a bigger explanation- which of course I do NOT owe her.  But....I wanted to straighten at least ONE thing out.

She resents me, won't admit it, or acknowledge it, but certainly treats me according.  When my daughter, the second child was four, I was having a hard time.  My husband mentioned that I was struggling and she made a phone call saying "Why didn't I just tell her, she'd be happy to help?"  Eventually we set up an every Weds. babysitting date.  She would watch my daughter so I could go to dr. appts., clean, etc.
It didn't last very long because I don't think she approved of the situation after the dust settled.  I think she realized that she had cancer, along with hard core therapy, and why would or should she be doing the work for me, when I should be doing it for her?  And that she's extremely tired during the day, didn't I know that!!!  On the third and last Weds. babysitting day she found out what I did.  I don't remember what exactly I did that day but I know I worked on bills and took a nap.  Because she didn't approve of what I did, she found a reason to stop helping me.   She used some other excuse but I knew otherwise.  It's weird= she has forgotten that I lived with her and watched her interact with friends, co-workers, relatives and my siblings....I know her game, her con.  I know her excuses.  But the last few years she's using them on me.

Anyway, she passively aggressively weirdly let me know that in her fragile state, it wasn't right that she was watching my child.  She took care of her children, I can take care of mine, blah blah blah.  So, I can clean, go to appts. but not sleep. If I catch up on rest, that's not worthy of her time.  She dealt with it (punished me) by taking away a babysitting resource.  She made herself highly unapproachable and difficult to reach. (again, she forgets I've seen her dodge other people, I know what she does)  I understood, either by what my dad relayed in his cluelessness or in her passive agg. way that she wasn't going to watch my kid so I could wander around, sleep, or stay up late on the computer.  She really, really has no idea.  What mom doesn't want to catch up on sleep.???

During this time, it was very difficult in my home and I explained that to her.  I explained that when I was struggling, needing even a moment of quiet, she withdrew her help because she didn't approve of whatever method I was using to refuel.  She said I was selfish and that she wasn't go to be a party to that.
I con't to explain to her that what she saw as selfish, was me looking for anything to hold on to, to keep me grounded etc.  And when I needed her for that, she was more interested in "teaching me a lesson".  Her words.  I explained that it was a dark time for me, that there were many days I didn't think I'd make it.  I wasn't being dramatic, just calmly explaining the extent of darkness I was dealing with and hoping she would realize I wasn't hoping for her to raise my kids while I join a band but help me out a day or two now and then so I can rest, breathe, etc.

And then, the next day, she does the pills.  She's never, ever talked about that sort of behavior.  And anyone that knows me well, knows I've dealt with dark moods for many, many years.  I know this sounds crazy, but a small part of me thinks she was pre-jealous of a reputation I may get or have in the future- that others would see me as struggling and have emotions about it.  Because this was not her kind of move.  She's got moves, but not this way.

She's always had an "I'm proud of you/Who do you think you are?" back and forth with me.  Happy that I have something she didn't then resentful to me when I am in the midst of it.

I have to stop, I am so tired.  I'll fill in more details later.

[Sweatheart]

Tilly,

Welcome! I believe it is important for you to keep posting and talking about it, because the situation you are in now is extremely traumatic.

Mother attempts suicide and blames it on her daughter.

There are two themes I want to cover in my reply: 1) narcissistic scheme behind her attempt; 2) what I would do in this situation and why.

1) I wonder when and how you learned about Nism.. For how long you are aware that you were born and brought up in narcissistic family? I am more than sure that when you learned about Nism, the slow recovery started taking it's place. Naturally the main narcissist in your family is rebelling. The details you describe in your second post are very telling. I recognize the tactics and strangeness very well. Especially the fact that the conversation took place on one day and suicide on the second. These little discrepancies do not matter for N. If you point out on them, N would burst: "How can you be so cruel with your pettiness, when I almost died!!!!" In reality, it is all a bad-composed drama that was born in the mind of a little spoiled brat of 3 yo.

Also more than once I observed and keep on observing how the person with disorder takes on personality of other people and use other people motivations about something they talked about before, to explain their narcissistic drama. I see it as ultimate exploitation of everything that falls in the narcissistic space. This why it is important NOT TO TALK much around them. Your words will be used against you. Your situation is the sad example of this fact. It is infuriating! N lacks in identity and that what N takes from other people. When you told to your M about your suicidal reactions she recognized that for you it is convincing enough language: if she attempts it, you would feel compassion and guilt and will shower her with attention. She used this method ONLY because she saw in your words that most likely you would be able to relate to it. It was a pure calculation. I have no clue where in their warped consciousness this sort of calculation takes place, but it is a pure calculation. Does she know about her con game or she believes her own con I do not know. The only thing that is clear: it is not safe to relate to this person.

2) What I would do.

I would get angry. And I would tell them that since this took place, from now on I will be relating to them ONLY through therapist. I am hurt, I am angry, my trust is violated, and I need a professional advice and a lot of help. And I would do it. I would say that Mom's choice damaged me and my family deeply and now I need to find the way to recover. Period.

If they would keep bombarding me with: "How could you be so cruel??????" I would say: "This is exactly what I am going to discuss with my therapist". If they would yell at me that I would make my mother to attempt the second time... hmmm... if I would expect something like that, I would advice to record the conversation and tell them that this conversation has been recorded and also will be introduced to the attention of my therapist. May be it would be even better to tell them now that since obviously it is not safe to talk to them; from now on all the conversations will be recorded and will become a part of intensive therapy sessions for you. This would discipline them and I am sure you would not hear any bad or remotely upsetting word from them. They would behave.

Tilly, you have tried to TALK to your mom, this is not going to work. If that could work , then she wouldn't be N in the first place. Unfortunately you have to let it go and understand that NOTHING you can do for them (N-mother and N-Dad). NOTHING. I understand that in the past you had "great r.s" with your NM. I also had. In fact your story reminds me mine way too much.... Then, when you were thinking you have a great friendship with your NM, you were under illusion. Illusion is gone. There is no road back. This is what your NM wants: she wants you under your old illusion, because then you were of use to her. It is impossible. May be in a way you also crave good r/s with NM. At least I know I do. And also I know it is a trap because it is impossible. The healthiest choice is to let it go. N will find another NS. It was never about love it was about NS.

Talking to her wouldn't work. Explaining also. ONLY INFORMING about YOUR RULES. This is the only language Ns understand and listen to. You have to show them that they do not possess you. This is the reflex that you have to teach them. And honestly in this situation the safest way is to give all the leads in the hands of authority - therapist in this case and make sure that this therapist is educated on N-theme.

Meanwhile I would cut off all the contact with N-Father and N-Mother. I would let them know that I am damaged and furious and my family is affected badly and that I am not in the space to talk to them and there is nothing I can do to help them. And cut them off. You have the full right to do so at this point.

Most importantly try to comprehend that there is NOTHING you can help them with. If now you will start showering your N-mother with attention, you would just enable her to do the same thing again. You would just encourage this behavior and participate in her madness.

The fact that she took 18 pills at 1:00pm knowing that Dad should come at 2:00pm is very telling. Most likely she calculated everything. Since she has no responsibility for herself, she wanted to play the grand game. She most likely realized that her husband might come home later and in this case she would probably be dead, but then it would punish both: you and him and that was most likely sweet for her. In case he comes home when he supposed to, then he is a rescuer. She also knew that he would not want to be responsible (blamed) for her attempt and that is why he would support her blaming everything on you. And she was right. This how Ns operate. Disgusting.

[practicaljude]

Hi Tillytoo9,

Welcome to the forum and I hope you’re able to get the information and feedback to help you though this tragedy. First If all I’ll chime in with the others here and tell you, NO – it was not your fault. There must be some amount of anguish you feel after your mom named you as the person responsible for her behavior. You are not responsible and you cannot cause your mom to take the pills.  I’m sorry for all the pain this has caused you.  I’m also sorry your mom is in so much pain.

As a mental health professional, I’ll speak to your mom's suicide attempt and hope it helps with further interactions and treatment you both may benefit from.  A suicide attempt needs to be taken seriously, whether it was a cry for help for an actual intentional act to result in her death. Many suicides result from people not really wanting to die, but intended to alert others to their pain. It's all to possible your dad may have been delayed and the focus of this thread would then take a drastic turn. Although there is no way you alone could cause her depression, her pain is as real to her as yours is to you. This is something only a trained professional can help your mom with and hopefully she'll get relief from the heavy weight she carries.

Blaming you for her suicide is unrealistic. Once someone has attempted to take their life, seriously or impulsively, there's an impact on everyone involved. Here's an excerpt from an article that explains what I'm trying to say:

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec07/ch102/ch102a.html

Any suicidal act has a marked emotional effect on all involved. Family, friends, and doctors may feel guilt, shame, and remorse at not having prevented the suicide. They may also feel anger toward the person. Eventually, they may realize that they could not have prevented the suicide.

Sometimes a grief counselor or a self-help group, such as Survivors of Suicide, can help family and friends deal with their feelings of guilt and sorrow. The primary care doctor or local mental health services (for example, at the county or state level) can often help locate these resources. In addition, national organizations, such as the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, often maintain directories of local support groups. Resources are also available on the Internet.

The effect of attempted suicide is similar. However, family members and friends have the opportunity to resolve their feelings by responding appropriately to the person's cry for help.

I’m hoping for both you and mom the pain becomes less.  It sounds like you’ve done lots of personal work to enjoy a happier, healthier life than you once knew – especially with boundaries! You deserve education, support and to learn more ways to cope with this and your families perspectives, which may be quite skewed. Ideally, your dad would accompany you to see a grief counselor or attend a group – but I hear loud and clear that probably won’t happen.  My heart reaches out to you because it sounds like you’ve already done lots of grief work…learning you’ll never have the mom you hoped she would be.

 
Jude

[CZBZ]

What speaks to me in your messages, Tillytoo, is the dysfunctional relationship many older women have 'with themselves'. Your mom does what so many mothers have done for ages, until they had more power to make choices for themselves.

There's a history setting a precedent to women putting other women down so they maintain a sense of superiority. Like natting on and on and on about her granddaughter to you. Why is she compelled to gossip about coworkers, family, friends and neighbors? Well, it makes the gossiper 'feel better'. That's the short answer. If they can tear someone down, they go UP in their own eyes. It's so common in society we don't even recognize how destructive it is to other people and ourselves. And nobody is immune from doing this though some people are definitely worse than others!

I see it as a woman's way to feel okay about herself since she's usually criticizing those who appear to be better than herself, or have more possessions than herself, are prettier, freer, more accomplished than herself. It's a relentless process and very tiresome for daughters who have more choices to assert themselves and feel good about themselves in a society that allows them to have more power over their lives than our mothers had, or our grandmothers, and great-great-greats!

When this happens in my family (and yes, it surely does!), and the gossip is unwarranted (that's an important point. Sometimes gossip is about resolution), then I change the conversation to something else. OR, I say something like this, "Interesting that you feel that way about so-and-so."

Some way or other, we can redirect the conversation back to the gossiper that makes them 'own' their feelings and thoughts as their own.

Then, because usually they get mad at me for doing that,  , I pick up the conversation talking about something we have done together in the past that suggests I'm not shaming or rejecting them. Overtime, people figure out that you don't like to gossip and it doesn't mean you don't like them, it just means you'll have to talk about ideas or memories or anything other than putting people down.

This may be a pollyanna-suggestion in your situation, though. I don't know how many techniques you have used to counter your mother's need to criticize people. And i don't know if she uses gossip to draw you into the conversation so she feels connected to you again? This relational pattern can be established during childhood when we are too little, too psychologically immature to realize we're being 'used' by a parent. If this kind of relationship was established when you were a young girl, it will be tough to change at this point. Recognition though, is the first step out of the DRAMA and FRUSTRATION.

Knowing your mother does this to feel better about herself is an insight that leads to understanding her better.

I have found with my mother that when I reassure her she's loved 'just as she is', her need to gossip is reduced. When you take 'one connection tactic' away, you can try replacing it with a healthier connection, reassuring her that despite the limitations in her life as a woman on this planet (  ), she did the best she could.

I give women a little more lenience on being true narcissists than i do men, simply because life has limited her opportunities for independence and authenticity so much that it's hard to know whether she is a pathological narcissist or not.

This is changing though. Our world is changing.


Hugs,
CZ

[tillytoo9]

I can say this for sure.....I wish I'd found this forum sooner.  I know that now is good though.

I'm on my way out with kids, so just a minute to add a few details. (again, not in any order)

The pills she took were Ambien.  And again, I don't want to assume anything...BUT...she was hunched over keyboard to computer when found and knew time/dose well enough to inform my dad.  I would LOVE to search the history of her search engine.

The suicide was taken seriously by all.  She was cared for in ER and then one overnight in hospital.  She was released (despite saying she'd do it again while still hazy).  She was advised to attend a two week outpatient program which she postponed for 1 1/2 months until returning from a vacation (which she didn't want to take) to see her dad and a short trip to Texas to have a scan done.  I found that absurd that you'd be willing to take your own life on one day, but put off help for an unwanted vacation with your azzhole dad.

All of your comments are appreciated and exciting to read.  I know of NO ONE to talk about this with.

I knew at a very early age~  my mom was nuturing, loving, and not as strong as my dad.  I knew she relied on me.  I knew I had to be good.  I knew she was hurt, and that my strength would give her strength and keep her feeling as though she was believed in.

At NO point, EVER, did I believe she was N.  She has always been the second place, behind the scenes, eats the leftovers, while my dad was loud, first place, and funny. 

She adored me when I was little (as she says) and always felt I was 'special'.  She continued to be 'good' with me until we'd reach a certain point. 

Example. 
Mom "I didn't make cheerleading when I was younger.  I always wanted to be a cheerleader.  I hope you can make it."

I made it.

Later, Mom: "Well, you sure think you are special, don't you".  referring to me as I practiced cheers

I would hear her talk on the phone...."Oh,  you should see her prancing around here like she's the queen, she sure thinks she's something".

Sixth grade me:   hmmm.  didn't she say she wanted me to be a cheerleader?  Now, she seems mad that I am one.

[Sweatheart]

Tilly, what is your plan? What do you feel about situation?

[tillytoo9]

One of the things that I've found most helpful is understanding a behavior and breaking it down.  I can do some of that on my own but appreciate your insight into the details I have provided. 

It makes so much sense when I hear it in another way.

Like I said earlier, my mom was never very N-ish; it was always my dad.  But since I've learned words and understandings like victim, now I know that despite her (perceived) weakness, tenderness, softness, always in my corner sort of way, there was some craziness going on.  It's still hard to accept that she's mean, or does mean things.  I know that she feels offended or hurt by other's behaviors, then she reacts with an inappropriate level of emotion.  I have felt sorry for her.  She lacks confidence.  Very insecure. 

She would NEVER, EVER, EVER~ see herself as N. She feels she's done the best with what she has, and often feels unappreciated, unacknowledged, looked over (had older prettier, athletic, favored sister and younger athletic brothers- she was average, not athletic- her words, not mine) and undervalued.
During our second counseling and last counseling appt. she broke down, hysterical.  I mean, hysterical.  She talked about how "when she had cancer, and was traveling back and forth from Texas, puking and miserable, did anyone offer to clean her bathroom?  bring her a meal?"  (She had other examples)

She continued with how she cared for her mom when she was dying.  How she did xyz for her mother and wouldn't dream of letting her down.  She added, even when her (my mom's) siblings were immersed in their own lives, forgetting about their mom, SHE did not. 

She also added bits like, "she's tried to be the go between" referring to my dad and I, for years, especially during high school.  And that tore her down.  Her husband would yell, her daughter would cry, and she was stuck.  Now matter what she did she couldn't fix it, and now, after all that, "I don't want to speak to her because it causes me pain".  She was referring to me, and how I had removed myself the previous year.
She was truly hurting.  She felt unloved.  And there were several cues for me during that experience....one of which was.....THIS WAS THE SAD WOMAN I HAD BEEN RAISED TO CARE FOR.

Another was....I don't feel much anymore.  I see her cry, feel for her, but don't feel the crippling sadness like I used to.

[tillytoo9]

Tilly, what is your plan? What do you feel about situation?

Getting ready to play Candyland....or Ducks....will write more after bedtime.

[Litha]

hi Tilly,

Lately I've been studying more about female narcissists, and one that caught my attention is the "professional victim." It sounds like your mother might be that type of covert N. You can read more about it on this thread:

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7500.0.html

 
Litha

[tillytoo9]

hi Tilly,

Lately I've been studying more about female narcissists, and one that caught my attention is the "professional victim." It sounds like your mother might be that type of covert N. You can read more about it on this thread:

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7500.0.html

 
Litha

Thank you.

I read it and the comments following.  It could be that I'm not a good judge but I don't see her that way....which brings up a question I'm wondering about.  How do you convince a N that believes they've given everything they've got, and always been taken advantage of, that ....they are narciss...  

In  the case of my mother...she does very good things for people.  I know that many times they are self serving (she'd be furious if she read that).  Her reaction would be something like, "How can you say that?  Why in the world would I do that for myself? I am trying to help xyz".  And then she would say something like, "fine, I won't do it then, we'll see how self serving it is for you when I don't do xyz.".
then I 'd say, "oh, mom, I don't know , it was just an idea...something to consider".

Her..."Well, I'll consider it, but I don't really think you have a clear picture of what is going on. "

Both her and my dad often accuse me of being overly emotional, and what's that phrase.....Oh!  They say, " we're afraid to tell you because you'll get so upset.  You take everything so personal".  Well, duh.

Anyway, I wanted to point out that she usually always takes the blame, even if down deep, or subconsciously she doesn't believe it to be the case.  She has lived with my dad for so long...that she has adapted/learned without knowing it I guess, what works for her.  She doesn't deal well with confrontation.  Avoids it like the plague.
She doesn't  insist on being right, in fact she often will concede too early.  "Well, I guess" or "If that's what you want" or "I guess that's what your dad wanted, works for me".  She's always been agreeable and only on occasion did it seem marytr-ish.

When she's good, she's good.  She's nuturing, kind, laughs at everything I say.  Fun to spend time with.  Feels normal, safe, home.  But when she's been bitten, or how do  you say?  feeling insecure?  sorry for herself?  She's got little to offer in reality.  She rationalizes things.  She makes excuses.  She downplays.  And I suppose this is more victim stuff.

It's odd, I'm not denying her behavior is inappropriate, but I always imagined having this conversation about my dad.  HE is the one that shows obvious signs.  He is critical, negative, antagonizing....and .............nevermind.


Anyway, I'm struggling with putting two things together.  

1.  any definition or subtype  of N

2.  and how it fits with my mom's nature and history of behavior


Do we believe all Ns are confident or show outward signs of confidence?
Can Ns be gentle, kind, loving 85% of time?
Is it possible to be an immature, insecure, emotionally bruised girl that grew into a wife and mother carrying the same characteristics and showing them in extreme situations while otherwise maintaining a gentle, passive nature?  And while that's not ideal, is that considered N diagnosis?  I'm not arguing it, just wondering.

There is something so cocky, overly confident, and superior about N that just doesn't fit my mom....how can I make sense of this?  Do I have it wrong?  Can there be a passive aggressive N?  (that's a lot of sssssss!)

[tillytoo9]

Tilly, what is your plan? What do you feel about situation?

My plan actually started several years ago but became an official one a little over 1 1/2 years ago.

There is never any fighting between my mom and I.  She just treats me with disdain.  She would say, and has said, that's not true.  She loves me, thinks I'm a good mom, etc. etc.  I had asked her about this several times.  Always deny, and act as though I want to make something out of nothing to draw attention to myself.  (not hardly)

One time, which was a pivotal moment for me, when I asked her again about something, she responded with something like, "fine, alright, I suppose it does bother me a little. "  And then, "I'm afraid if I tell you, you'll get mad, let's just drop it."  I pushed harder.  "mom, why did you say xyz?" 
She denies it.  Finally, she says that she thinks I'm selfish.  And then flood gates are open.  She seems heated up, defensive, and acting as though I insulted HER.  I react with very little emotion.  I tell her thank you for finally telling me the truth.  She repeats that she hopes I don't get mad now, that I wanted her to be honest (I guess it was my fault?)

I reassure her that this has been good for me, she is a little quieter and a bit confused.  I ask her if dad agrees with her.  She says, more or less, yes.  Of course, I knew this already, but I wanted to confirm.  Instead of answering  directly, she replies, "I don't know what you want me to say, yes, I guess so."  then continues- not by giving a direct answer but by telling me a story about my behavior and how it put them in a bad spot.  "I mean, what would you think?" she says to me after finishing the story.  "don't you think it's a little bit selfish?"

This goes on and eventually I tell her that I am feeling a huge burden of relief.  That at least NOW I know how they feel, confirmed.  I felt it, saw it, ate it, breathed it, but now I had heard it.  I realized then and there, they would never see me as I really am.  That despite the years and years of remembering birthdays, giving them parties, cleaning their house, getting good grades, inviting them to important functions, taking them on vacation.....they would never see me as a devoted daughter that often put my parents needs above my own children.  Somehow, when they called me selfish, I knew they were no where near me.  They didn't see me.  They saw me but in their own filters.  I could say hello and they heard, "Hi, can everyone bow to me?"  Or I could offer to buy their dinner and they heard "Since I'm better than you and I abuse my husband by spending his money, can I buy your dinner so I can look cool?"

One instance she gave to support her selfish claim was a situation on a car trip.  The whole situation was miserable to begin with but eventually got worse.  I didn't know why at the time, but since we've gone through these last few weeks of talking I learned of it.

She agreed to come with my family and I while I attended the Mayo Clinic.  As we were leaving, I realized my daughter was most likely getting sick.  We didn't want to turn around so I said that I could pick up some med. when we stopped for lunch/break.  Since I was fasting, I couldn't eat anyway, I offered to drop them at Subway and go get med.

A few weeks ago, I found out how my mom viewed that.  She was so mad, or as she worded it, "I would never do something like that"  Oh, the nerve.

Apparently, she thought I was going shopping.  She thought I just discarded my family, and took off "on my own" to do whatever I wanted to do.  And emphasized that with an attitude like I do that all the time.  "whenever I want"  "on my own"  "no regard for the group" 
She had in her mind that I was getting rid of them and heading to the mall????  What?  We are on our way to the Mayo clinic, my little girl is sick, son is missing school, my husband has not prepared for the trip (as promised) and I'm left to handle all the details despite my husband and mother along with me.  She treated me with such contempt after that but when asked she'd say, "oh, nothing"  "I don't know what you are referring to, I'm fine"

Later that night, as we we're getting settled into bed, she says she wants the couch bed.  Which is nearest to the door.  the most uncomfortable.  I offer her one the doubles, tell her I appreciate her coming, want her to be comfortable.  She says she'd prefer the privacy, acts weird about it.  I mean, I felt uncomfortable at that point because of how she was carrying about.  I explained that I'd be leaving very early, don't want to wake her, etc.  She wouldn't budge. Finally, I said, fine. 

When things we're coming to a boil (BEFORE she called me selfish), she asked me to give her examples of when she is "short with me" or when I feel that she resents me.  I hate doing this because that means she's going to pick apart every detail and prove how wrong each one is.

I explained about her behavior on the trip to Mayo.  She said, "fine, do you really want to know?"  I said of course, yes.  She told me about the perceived shopping trip of which she was appalled with and the night at the hotel.  Now I know why she was so funny about the beds.  She told me that she "wasn't about to give me the bed near the door and computer."  She knew that "I'd stay up all night messing around on that computer".  And she "wasn't about to let that happen".  As far as she's concerned, I "can get to bed like the rest of them, go to bed a decent hour like everyone else".  Later she added (when she was worked up), I'll be damned if I going to go all the way up there and sit and watch you stay up late on the computer while the rest of us go to bed when we're supposed to."

Whacked.

So, back to ????

Called me selfish, admitted she tried to manipulate me at Mayo, I felt released (hurt, pained, but released).

Spent the next year and half seeing Helen at Options Center.  She offered mind body work, BrainGym, and other types of alternative therapy.  She has a wealth of information both in her library and in her ideas.  She insists she's not a therapist, but she helped me.  I learned about inner child, parent, and adult.  I learned about Adler, Montessori, and other behaviorists.

Through 'therapy' and education, exposure and diet, I slowly broke away from parents.  I stuggled.  I hated it.  I cried myself to sleep like a baby many nights.  I felt I had to accept that I'd never see my parents again.  Even though I knew I would/could....I had to know that if I chose to limit my contact with them, that there would be a chance that something could happen to them in the meantime.  Was I prepared to lose them and be ok with how I left it between us?  I thought about that a lot.  Most times I said yes.

I was hung up on 'leaving them'.  I felt that instead of stopping contact, that I should pursue them to get help.  Not take no for an answer.  But Helen suggested (often and calmly) that I take care of myself first.

I don't know when the biggest change happened, I didn't  feel anything different.  I suppose I realized recently, when someone asked,that I didn't know what they were up to.  And I didn't really care.  It's not over.  I have more to do.  I am still unhealthy.

I have serious health problems and have been dealing with them since age 22.  I'm 38.  I have suffered from unexplained pain for years.  I was diagnosed with many different ailments.  Bipolar, thyroid, and more.  Still sorting through that.

My marriage has been difficult. I think I went from the pot to the fryin pan??? Is that the saying?  My husband is a good man but spent many years telling me that "when he grew up, they didn't use charge cards" and "when his dad worked on house projects, things were always cleaned up by Monday" and "you can't paint a house that color or you'll lose money on the resell" or "what were you thinking", "you don't have a clue" and once again, "you get so emotional".  He used me to make friends laugh, forgot about me when we got to a party, interrupted me all the time.
We started counseling after first child was born.  He started to become accountable to his behaviors when a neutral third party was present. 
Something weird happened then.  He went from being confident, stubborn, and aloof to treating me like i saved his life.  He often acts devoted to me.  Now this has evolved in the last eight years but is still more like that.
He adores me but can't relate to me.  He thinks I'm amazing but doesn't have a clue what I do during the day or that I've never, ever liked onions and will still order food with them....and respond "oh, I didn't know".

I spent a lot of time at counselor's office lobbying for considering he has ADD.  Finally, after five years of gentle prodding he began to consider he has SOME of the traits.  A few questionaires and two more years, a billion discussions, a drug trial and bam, now he seems to accept it.  He's been medicated for over a year.

Since my time with Helen at Options Center, I have read about more than diagnosis.  I have learned about how we can stop developing in childhood if our needs aren't met.  I understand that both of us were raised in dysfunctional homes.  Although they seem typical, normal.. our needs in childhood went unmet in many aspects, on many occasions.

My husband continues to become a better person, husband, etc. but we struggle with the way he lives.  He sees me/us in the mother/son type way that is exhausting to me.  He is like a third child with power and a driver's license.  He brings chaos into the home.  He argues with our children and tells on them...TO ME...in front of them.  Not all the time.  but it happens.

He wants approval from me all the time.  He gets worked up if he sensed I am frustrated about anything he did.  He is defensive.  He talks defensively. lives this way.  Anticipates my disappointment due to my behavior in the past - which could be fifteen years ago. He insists he "just wants to please me".  Opposite of the early years!
I think he wants to please me so he can feel at ease.  Ultimately, he needs to become himself and trust himself.  He knows this and is pursuing counseling as well.


Almost all this came about because I wanted to raise my kids in an amazing way.  I wanted them to grow in a rich, fertile field of imagination, trust, fun, possibility, wonder and more.  I didn't want them to carry our baggage around with them.  I want them to be comfortable in their own skin.

But I'm typing with one eye closed, and most likely set a record for typos, and I've shared more about myself in two days than I have in ten years.  I love anonymity!



Looking forward to any feedback.
 

[tillytoo9]

 If you point out on them, N would burst: "How can you be so cruel with your pettiness, when I almost died!!!!"

yes, yes, yes




Also more than once I observed and keep on observing how the person with disorder takes on personality of other people and use other people motivations about something they talked about before,
*Agreed, I see that in her.  I have seen her do it.  She is envious of what she thinks, people might think of me.  (that I'm funny, energetic, whatever)

N lacks in identity and that what N takes from other people. When you told to your M about your suicidal reactions she recognized that for you it is convincing enough language: if she attempts it, you would feel compassion and guilt and will shower her with attention. She used this method ONLY because she saw in your words that most likely you would be able to relate to it. It was a pure calculation. I have no clue where in their warped consciousness this sort of calculation takes place, but it is a pure calculation. Does she know about her con game or she believes her own con I do not know. The only thing that is clear: it is not safe to relate to this person.
*how can we dismiss the person or walk away when they might now realize they are doing it?



I would get angry.
*done and done.

If they would keep bombarding me with: "How could you be so cruel??????"


more like, "who do you think you are?" or to each other "Well, she's going to need a babysitter or help with a repair, and then who do you think she'll call?" and to me again..."oh I see we're good enough for you now"  When you need something..we're good enough otherwise,....

 The healthiest choice is to let it go. **I know, but so sad.

 therapist is educated on N-theme. **not likely to find in my area

Meanwhile I would cut off all the contact with N-Father and N-Mother.  **did this, for the most part, over one year ago.  We talk once in awhile.

 If now you will start showering your N-mother with attention, you would just enable her to do the same thing again. You would just encourage this behavior and participate in her madness. **after attempt, I visited ER once, then didn't speak with her for several days.   We went weeks without talking, still haven't addressed the why.


The fact that she took 18 pills at 1:00pm knowing that Dad should come at 2:00pm is very telling. Most likely she calculated everything.
**I have considered that. Either she wanted to prove, or punish, or do something by taking the pills....which is major......or she really wanted to die.  Either way, it's big.  I am a bit uneasy that she would do that and use my name afterwards.  Especially where my brother and sister could hear.  She knows very well how moms can play siblings against each other- her MIL did it/still does it her whole life.  I have grown up with my dad's side of family always in some huge argument.  She knows the pain of that and will tell me sometimes...".I'm not going to get involved with it, you kids work it out." Or she'll say, "I should've never said anything, I made myself a promise I would stay out of it, because someone always gets hurt."  "I can't afford to have an opinion on this"

But in this situation, she has shared her feelings with my sister.  My brother doesn't buy it, but my sister wants drama, she wants to be the best kid, to impress them, etc.  She will grab a hold of this.  In many ways, my mom and sister are alike.


 Disgusting. ***agreed
[/quote]

[Sweatheart]

Tilly, there is so much I want to tell you, but it is morning and I have to get ready to work... So I will write after work.

Just a few lines before that:

1) Medical literature suggests that ACONs have very little understanding of their feelings because since childhood they were not allowed to feel. Instead they had to cater to their parents needs. Hence, when asked "what do you feel?" ACON usually is confused about the answer and instead of his/her feelings ACON tells about feelings of Ns or actions of Ns. I totally relate to it, it is extremely hard to expand on my feelings. I have noticed the same trend in your response. As ACON I appreciated it very much and if I would read it a year ago I wouldn't have noticed that probably only one sentence is dedicated to YOUR FEELINGS, but now I see it and I think about it. I am still trying to comprehend the whole picture and the place I am in, so please do not take it as a judgment, it is only my observation.

2) The picture of your r/s with your parents is very telling. Yes, yes, yes - I know all that - checking and testing, as if your mother WANTS to prove that you are no good for her and then she goes into despair about it... Insecurity? Nism? BPD? Malice? They say that when one lives with N, one starts shifting to borderline spectrum more and more.... Is it possible that your M went this way? Why she married N in the first place? Who was N among her parents?

3) The most amazing thing for me was the description of your marriage and it's dynamics. I identified with it almost 100%. Wow. I thought my story of marriage is "unique", I have never heard anyone tell that sort of the story. Today I read the story of my marriage in your post. My husband is also emotionally shut down, can not relate. Treats me "as if I saved his life" - I loved this description of yours, it is very true. At the same time he still can not relate to me as to a normal person. He calls me his guardian angel, he looks up to me, acts almost with awe and then neglects my humanity, my needs, my ordinary existence completely. Sometimes I think he treats me as if I am N and he is a victim. I do wonder how many Ns traits do I exhibit?

4) I think you are doing a right thing by taking a break now from any communication with Mother, because it is simply dangerous. I think that if you accept that she is N, you can not ask her to admit her manipulations and ask her for the luxury of explanation. This might drive her into NI and it is really pointless for you and pointless for her as well... At the same time you can not live your life thinking what else might cause her NI (narc injury)...

5) I am really curious how diet can help to straighten your mind?

Talk to you later,
Hugs, Sweat

[Litha]

...which brings up a question I'm wondering about.  How do you convince a N that believes they've given everything they've got, and always been taken advantage of, that ....they are narciss...  

I would guess that would be a futile effort. One trait of narcissism is the inability to acknowledge your own shortcomings, including narcissistic traits. You will make yourself crazy trying to get a narcissist to admit their behavior is narcissistic.

Here is a link to an article that summarized the many different styles of narcissism, maybe you will see your mother here:

http://kleerstreem.posterous.com/the-many-sins-and-heads-of-narcissism

 
Litha

[tillytoo9]

Tilly, there is so much I want to tell you, but it is morning and I have to get ready to work... So I will write after work.


I'll be watching for it.  Too exhausted to add more tonight.

[tillytoo9]

I copy/pasted from another site

Words and phrases in italic are not true (not perceived by me or others close to her) while the ones in bold are right on.



(As I see this morning, this did not work)  Anyone know how to post a pdf?

[CZBZ]

You can't upload documents to this site. Or word docs. This protects our security (especially mine as the owner of this site). Sorry!


Hugs,
CZ

[tillytoo9]

    PTypes personality types proposes Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a pervasive pattern of unstable, "overtly narcissistic behaviors [that] derive from an underlying sense of insecurity and weakness rather than from genuine feelings of self-confidence and high self-esteem" (Millon), beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by ten (or more) of the following:

        * seeks to create an illusion of superiority and to build up an image of high self-worth (Millon);

        * has disturbances in the capacity for empathy (Forman);

        * strives for recognition and prestige to compensate for the lack of a feeling of self-worth;

        * may acquire a deprecatory attitude in which the achievements of others are ridiculed and degraded (Millon);

        * has persistent aspirations for glory and status (Millon);

        * has a tendency to exaggerate and boast (Millon);

        * is sensitive to how others react to him or her, watches and listens carefully for critical judgment, and feels slighted by disapproval (Millon);

        * is prone to feel shamed and humiliated and especially hyper-anxious and vulnerable to the judgments of others (Millon);

        * covers up a sense of inadequacy and deficiency with pseudo-arrogance and pseudo-grandiosity (Millon);

        * has a tendency to periodic hypochondria (Forman);

        * alternates between feelings of emptiness and deadness and states of excitement and excess energy (Forman);

        * entertains fantasies of greatness, constantly striving for perfection, genius, or stardom (Forman);

        * has a history of searching for an idealized partner and has an intense need for affirmation and confirmation in relationships (Forman);

        * frequently entertains a wishful, exaggerated, and unrealistic concept of himself or herself which he or she can't possibly measure up to (Reich);

        * produces (too quickly) work not up to the level of his or her abilities because of an overwhelmingly strong need for the immediate gratification of success (Reich);

        * is touchy, quick to take offense at the slightest provocation, continually anticipating attack and danger, reacting with anger and fantasies of revenge when he or she feels frustrated in his or her need for constant admiration (Reich);

        * is self-conscious, due to a dependence on approval from others (Reich);

        * suffers regularly from repetitive oscillations of self-esteem (Reich);

        * seeks to undo feelings of inadequacy by forcing everyone's attention and admiration upon himself or herself (Reich);

        * may react with self-contempt and depression to the lack of fulfillment of his or her grandiose expectations (Riso).